/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13588011]

>and thus they set sail on the wine-dark sea
Was Homer stupid? The sea is clearly blue, how could you confuse it with "wine-dark"?

[Anonymous No.13588017]

>>13588011
Homer is more gracious than you'll ever be you stupid little worm.

[Anonymous No.13588019]

>>13588011
Fuck you, sweetie.

[Anonymous No.13588021]

Ancient grapes were actually blue. They have grown significantly and have turned a more reddish-purple over 3000 years of selective breeding.

[Anonymous No.13588032]

take the indoeuropeanpill

[Anonymous No.13588076]

>In Ancient Greece the tradition of pouring libations to the gods became so prevalent that the Mediterranean sea was heavily polluted with wine, both sourced downstream from rivers and estuaries, and from the ritual act of pouring libations at sea for the protection of Poseidon. From this practice several vase fragments depict a stumbling figure labeled "μέθῠστος Ποσειδῶν", translated as "drunken Poseidon". It is believed that the famous Homeric Repetition "wine-dark sea" referred to this event.

[Anonymous No.13588089]

>>13588011
when it's night or at least close to it, probably

[Anonymous No.13588095]

>>13588011

[Anonymous No.13588100]

>>13588076
>Getting the sea god of accidents and earthquakes drunk
One more reason to love the greeks

[Anonymous No.13588106]

>>13588019

>sweetie

go back

[Anonymous No.13588133]

>>13588076
This is a troll,right?

[Anonymous No.13588141]

>>13588011
I read somewhere that the Greeks did not have a word for blue, so they just likened it to other things. Make of that what you will.

[Anonymous No.13588146]

>>13588011
Various theories
1-People back then were daltonic, humans became capable to distinguish color to any effect only later
2-there was no word for blue/Green in mychenean greece
3- >>13588021 is an actual theory
Nobody believes >>13588076 It's as patently ridiculous as anthropogenic global warming.

[Anonymous No.13588167]

>>13588095
This has always been my opinion. The Egyptians referred to the sea as the Green.

[Anonymous No.13589064]

bump

[Anonymous No.13589071]

[Anonymous No.13589074]

Wine is dark, the sea is dark
they are both dark, but different colours.

[Anonymous No.13589093]

>>13588146
>anthropogenic global warming
I'll bite. The problem isn't whether it's human made or not. The problem is that it is happening and that we can do something about it. So why don't we?

[Anonymous No.13589096]

>>13588021
Who here blueberry wine? (Although it's actually purple too.)

[Anonymous No.13589105]

>>13588146
Mixed grapes can do this, as well as watering down wine, which was common after making strong wine.
Potentially mixing a harder alcohol with the wine can do this as well. Not to mention all the herbs etc. they may have added to it.
Reminder that if you follow the Greeks you must drink Mead and brandy mixed. It's the only drink worthy of the gods.

[Anonymous No.13589144]

>>13588011
Sometimes three sea is wine-dark. The sea comes it lots of different colours depending on the day. I've seen pink bubble bath before!
Or it's poetry that fit the rhyme and made it easy to remember, you bait thread.

>>13589093
Manipulating atmospheric carbon is the dumbest, most expensive way but they talk of nothing else. It makes one wonder.

[Anonymous No.13589153]

>>13589144
Forgot pic!

[Anonymous No.13589158]

He was blind, retard.

[Anonymous No.13589159]

>>13589093
>The problem is that it is happening and that we can do something about it.
If It's not anthropogenic How would We be able to do anything about It?>>13589105
This what? Blue wine?

[Anonymous No.13589166]

>>13588011
I have a variety of wine that will turn to a deep blue when water's added to it.

[Anonymous No.13589206]

>>13588011
Greek were color blind, blue didn't exist in the most of the ancient world

[Anonymous No.13589216]

>>13588011
You guys are all wrong. Colours work differently in Greek, going by shade and darkness vs "colour". It sounds retarded but thats just the way it was.

[Anonymous No.13589277]

>>13589206
Hey, you're fucken retarded. It was "wine-dark" because it was opaque and dark in color, not because the sea was purple.

[Anonymous No.13589312]

>>13588011
>>13589277
You okay op? He kinda just shat on your gay thread.

[Anonymous No.13589355]

>>13589093
I agree. Let's have some more elites take private jets to Switzerland so they can develop another tax to put on the middle-class.

[Anonymous No.13589364]

The sea is made of water, but it is dark, dark like wine but unlike water in a glass or in a pond or in a river. That's it.

[Anonymous No.13589486]

>>13588141
They did have a word for blue.

[Anonymous No.13589505]

>>13588146
the evidence for the evolution of colour terminology through the development of language is actually really interesting

[Anonymous No.13589586]

>>13588011
maybe he's comparing the opaqueness of wine to the ocean

[Anonymous No.13589788]

,>>13589586
>>13589364
He also calls it "the wine-dark COLORED sea" it has nothing to do with opaqueness.
>>13589144
He calls it "wine-dark" in moments that it would obviously not be the case, like at daylight.

[Anonymous No.13589877]

>>13589788
Far-shooting Apollo
Fleet-footed Achilles
Wine-dark seas
Have you ever stumbled trying to remember the words of a song? These give you a little space to remember the next line. They nicely fit the meter.

[Anonymous No.13589904]

Foreshadowing that blood will be spilled in battle.

[Anonymous No.13589916]

>>13589877
I know, Homer has thousands of these repetitions, including full on speech repetitions, like Telemachus who repeats his speech from Book I in Book II, and similarly, Penelope repeats her speech about how she lost her husband and now is going to lost her son in Book IV. But it's still weird that he choose "wine-dark colored sea" because they're so obviously dissimilar. It has to be that wine was somehow blue.

[Anonymous No.13590366]

>>13589486
No they didn't.

[Anonymous No.13590405]

>>13588011
>Was Homer stupid?
yes, also colorblind

[Anonymous No.13590408]

the sea is whatever homer says it is.

[Anonymous No.13590412]

Sometimes the sky do be bronze

[Anonymous No.13590496]

Not everything is literal in poetry

[Anonymous No.13590534]

>>13588011

A segment on pop-science/culture radio program "Radio Lab" covered exactly this. The program is very reddit, but it is informative and germane to the OP, so posting it is warranted.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/211213-sky-isnt-blue

Oversimplifying, the guest(s) theorize that humans first took notice of (and classified) extremely basic colors/hues: black, white, red (blood, danger). It was only later that they took notice of (and classified) blue, in particular (this, despite the blue sky, somehow). Homer wrote during a period when this all still confused, and in the process of being sorted out. I forget the exact reasoning; for that, listen to the segment.

[Anonymous No.13590577]

>>13590534
why do modern white people delude themselves into thinking theyre so advanced and special and ancient peoples couldnt see color?

[Anonymous No.13591793]

Homer was explaining the actual color of the Mediterranean sea, which is a mix of green and blue and not red or “wine dark”.

[Anonymous No.13591798]

>implying one individual compiled orally, then wrote down, the Homeric epics, all by themselves

[Anonymous No.13591839]

>>13589216
This. The Greek understanding of chroma and pigma was fundamentally different from ours, and the way they saw and described the world was. This is worth reading if you want to understand Homeric epithets.
https://serendipstudio.org/exchange/ananda-triulzi/ancient-greek-color-vision

[Anonymous No.13591869]

>>13590577
Minoan fresco colours are not literal: they derive from Egyptian art customs. Male skin is usually red, female is white, and for metals: gold is yellow, silver is blue and bronze is red.
The Bull-Leaping Fresco, as it has come to be called, is the most completely restored of several stucco panels originally sited on the upper-story portion of the east wall of the palace at Knossos in Crete. Although they were frescos, they were painted on stucco relief scenes and therefore are classified as plastic art. In Minoan chronology, their polychrome hues – white, pale red, dark red, blue, black – exclude them from the Early Minoan (EM) and early Middle Minoan (MM) Periods. They are, in other words, instances of the "mature art" created no earlier than MM III. The flakes of the destroyed panels fell to the ground from the upper story during the destruction of the palace, probably by earthquake, in Late Minoan (LM) II. By that time the east stairwell, near which they fell, was disused, being partly ruinous. The question of accuracy of restoration (and the restoration of Knossos frescoes is extreme) is an important one.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/ladies-blue-0011518

[Anonymous No.13591874]

>>13588146
I have a theory please don’t judge

Water/the ocean is transparent but opaque when thick just like wine

[Anonymous No.13591876]

>>13590366
Homer's "wine-dark sea" was mistranslated. The word is wine-eyed (or faced) sea which is a metaphor for the drunken sea. Blue has been a description for being drunk in many languages, including used to this day.

[Anonymous No.13591913]

While technically οἶνοψ πόντος does mean “wine faced sea”
anyone with more than the imagination of a beetle
understands that a word can “literally translate” to something without meaning the actual sum of its components. the word is being used in a fashion where it means “dark” or “reddish blue” much as the sea might appear as the light reflects upon it.
The traditional translation of wine dark dates to at least 100 years ago, back in the time when people accepted that language could have nuance and beauty and not be wielded like a cudgel to satisfy the pedantic assholes of this world who are unable to convey anything that hasn’t been written in Plain Language at their grade 3 reading level.

[Anonymous No.13591933]

Famous authors throughout history wrote about shit they never saw all the time

How many geographic details does Shakespeare fudge or just get wrong?

Maybe he never saw an ocean

[Anonymous No.13592304]

I ways thought it was the dark red of the early morning sun hitting the water.

[Anonymous No.13592320]

>>13591933

He sure as fuck saw a sea or a large body of water.

t. personally have never seen an ocean

[Anonymous No.13592353]

>>13588011
He’s making a claim about darkness, not color. Wine-dark is not the same as wine-colored. But given his real intention, I see you’ve never been to the sea, because at dusk and dawn and on moonlit nights it has a frothy, purplish hue, mimicking wine closely. Educate yourself son.

[Anonymous No.13592366]

>>13592353
he talks about the wine "colored" sea even at daylight. it has nothing to do with that, but simply the retarded way the greeks had to talk about color.

[Anonymous No.13592367]

>>13588011
Greeks couldnt percieve blue

There was an article on this....

[Anonymous No.13592411]

>>13592367
They could see it, they just didn't have a word for it and had to say lapis lazili but more wine colored. Like english had no word for orange, it was just red-yellow.

[Anonymous No.13592418]

>>13592411
Blue is a primary color though, at least orange IS red-yellow

[Anonymous No.13592429]

>>13589093
>that we can do something about it
We can't.

[Anonymous No.13592510]

>>13588011
>>13592367
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-blue-and-how-do-we-see-color-2015-2

[Anonymous No.13592513]

>>13588141
I read this same thing I am wondering where we both read this. some dude had a hypothesis and this was his anecdote to prove his point

[Anonymous No.13592521]

>>13592418
A primary colour? Says who, painters? How many colours are in the rainbow? 7 Because there are 7 distinct colours? No because there are seven days in the week. There are still tribal people who have no word for blue.

[Anonymous No.13592524]

>>13591869
good post anon

[Anonymous No.13592531]

>>13588141
whatever article it was they were mentioning that jews did not have all the colors named either or something

[Anonymous No.13592551]

>>13588141
OMFG DUDE I FOUND IT.

I came across this through taleb's antifragile. he said he contacted guy deutscher as a reference. talebs point is its common that we know more than we can articulte, hence why we never had a word for antifragile. just like the anecdote that we once didnt have a word for blue.

[Anonymous No.13592561]

>>13592551
>we never had a word for antifragile
robust? sturdy? hearty? stocky? tough?

[lalo - searching for tridejur No.13592595]

The defrauded million of students

[Anonymous No.13592610]

>>13588095
/thread

[Anonymous No.13593496]

>>13588021
Lindyman told me the ancients had language for the colour blue. Do with this what you will but I’m inclined to believe him.

[Anonymous No.13593746]

>>13589093
>and that we can do something about it.
lol who's "we"?

[Anonymous No.13593762]

>blue movies in full colour

[Anonymous No.13593774]

>>13588011
Have you not seen evangelion?

[Anonymous No.13593781]

>>13591839
>>13589105
>>13588146
>>13588076
>>13591913
>While technically οἶνοψ πόντος does mean “wine faced sea”
A drunk sea (ruddy, tumultuous, unpredictable)

This, then:
1.) Little/rare glassware
2.) Sky colour isn't static (also zero pollution)
4.) wine processing/grape varieties different

Left Field:
5.) Eleusinian mysteries: Nile lotus (blue) + xyz psychoactive ingredients taken with wine // reference to that experience/knowledge; also where this inner sea is blood (Thales: all is water.)
6.) ^The Atlantic was referred to as The Sea of Cronus/Saturn. The outer dark, unknown, ignorance. Alternatively, the Sea of Atlas:
7.)^ Pillars: Ne plus ultra -- built by Hercules to hold the firmament from the earth, unburdening Atlas; Prometheus gave us fire, Atlas the stars. The Masonic Jachin & Boaz go here;
8.)Protagoras: Man is the measure of all things [but not Being...]
9.)^Where man is the compass, wherefore the [Saturn] square--
10.) -- Wine Sea is a topological metaphor carrying experiences from initiation into the mysteries, signified through a common expression, like a retrovirus, as a steganographic device.

Atlantis may well refer to an actual ante-diluvian civilization, destroyed by its own hubris. For ours purposes ITT, placed within the inner wine [Janus-faced] sea,

“A man is a god in ruins.” — Emerson

[Anonymous No.13593979]

>>13593781
Ascended post, could you expand on 7-9 pls I'm having trouble see what you're getting at.