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/lit/ - Literature

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13529727 No.13529727[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why is it so hard to generate a social dialogue on anti-natalism without normies reacting emotionally and irrationally? I have been trying to convince my immediate family of the follies of natalism, but they seem mostly to resort to ad-hominem. What would be an effective way of presenting the ideology to the layman?

>> No.13529734

>>13529727
Stop repeating threads. Its not money youre printing.

>> No.13529735

>>13529727
Why would you expect rational discourse on an ideology which is, by definition, suicidal?

>> No.13529742

>>13529727
Women are retarded and dangerous in the current environment

Your friends are probably retarded but you are probably even more by walking into the Lions den willingly

FUCK w*men
FUCK m*rriage

>> No.13529746

>>13529727
Because the key targets of anti-natalism are roasties prone to be hysterical

>> No.13529750

>>13529727
You are advocating people kill their potential kids so that they (the kids) stop bothering (You); crying in (You)r plane cabin, vomiting on (You)r library steps. No pleb is going to accept those terms.

>> No.13529798

It's generally very hard to discuss controversial ideas in adverse environments
Even on places that pride themselves of having free speech, the truth is that even if you can say whatever you want if it's against the general consensus it will be rejected without a second thought, because thinking is hard
I'd just give up desu

>> No.13529806

>>13529735
Antinatalism is about not having kids, not suicide

>> No.13529811

Keep having kids. More orifices for me to violate.

>> No.13529817

>>13529811
not my kids

>> No.13529827

>>13529727
A lot of people in the West are choosing this lifestyle nowadays. Stop pretending like you're some enlightened contrarian and go die with the rest of the dogs.

>> No.13529837

>>13529806
the logical conclusion of your ideology is suicide

>> No.13529845

>>13529837
there's a difference between bringing new life into the world, and forcefully taking out the one that's already there

>> No.13529850

>>13529837
if you kill yourself do you negate the fact of your birth?

>> No.13529857

>>13529817
I will look at my prospective victim's libraries if I see anything by Julius Evola or the Bible I will rape the books instead.

>> No.13529863

>>13529845
>>13529850
You all believe life is inherently more enjoyable than death, you're all hypocrites lol

>> No.13529877

>>13529863
the act of suicide is preceded by suffering, the very thing antinatalists are trying to minimize

>> No.13529885

>>13529877
And if you believed a little suffering + enjoyment was less preferable then death or non-existence, you would commit suicide. This is why nobody takes you guys seriously, it's the definition of hypocrisy

>> No.13529892

>>13529863
>>13529877
suicide has the potential to be a new nightmare in it's own right, the ego is already created, your personality is already established, fear mechanisms are already in place, you are already trapped, suicide and not having kids are two different things

>> No.13529899

>>13529885
not entrapping another person is preferable to entrapping another person

>> No.13529915
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13529915

>>13529727
If everybody became sterile one day, how would the end days play out? Any books on this?

>> No.13529923

>>13529863
Life is more knowable, subject to investigation, than death.

Just because life isnt good doesnt make death better.

>> No.13529927

>>13529750

You are killing your kids. They will be born, and then they will die. You play god and decide to create a person and leave them to fend off later in life.

An anti-natalist does the exact opposite.

>> No.13529930

>>13529915
Children of Men

>> No.13529936

>>13529915
children of men

>> No.13529938

>>13529892
Fear of dreaming is a terrible argument, by this logic humans could exist pre-birth, and be experiencing the exact same you purport to be possible after death. If you're just saying "too scared" to kill yourself, you are implying there is something in life which makes it more enjoyable than death.
>>13529899
You guys always shift the argument when suicide is brought up. Explain to me why you haven't killed yourself yet.
>>13529923
And the same for pre-birth, terrible argument

>> No.13529942

>>13529727
I'll have kids because I feel like it, faggot. Enjoy biological oblivion.

>> No.13529950

>>13529938

Killing yourself is harder than edgy spergs like you make it seem. First comes overriding every instinct in your body that tells you not to do this, then comes the fact that any available suicide methods now involve a gigantic chance of leaving you permanently injured and even worse than first off if your body reacts to protect you on the last second, and a bunch of other factors.

There is a gigantic difference between "I wish I hadn't been born" and "I want to die by my own hands". Why is this bullshit hypocritical misinterpretation the only line you people have?

Why do you think all slaves, war prisoners, whoever the fuck else don't just kill themselves once they realize they are likely never gonna escape their torment in their lifetime? Killing yourself is not just some easy decision to make for a human being. No human being should have to think about making that decision, because that by itself is hard and leads to suffering.

If someone isn't born they don't have to think about that or try to kill themselves or any shit like this. It is absolutely not contradictory to defend anti-natalism, and at the same time not try to harm yourself.

>> No.13529957

>>13529942
Everything dies in the end. Don't call them kids, that's a derogatory term used for goat offspring. Children are important because they keep the great story unfolding, but they're not THE sign that you've made it, absolutely not. A celibate man who is of great character such as (but not necessarily) a warrior, poet, philosopher, even a great farmer, etc. is spiritually wiser in the grand scheme of things than the degenerate drunk who manages to breed some random whores.

>> No.13529965

>>13529950
cope

>> No.13529969

>>13529938
>Fear of dreaming is a terrible argument
fear of dreaming? what?
>by this logic humans could exist pre-birth
sorry, I have no clue what the fuck you're talking about

>> No.13529970

>>13529957
have sex, incel

>> No.13529972
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13529972

>>13529727
Embrace suffering stop being weak.

>> No.13529975

>>13529950
LMAO
>First comes overriding every instinct in your body that tells you not to do this
(I hope you see why I find this so funny)
Suicide is an easy decision, it's clear to me you've never broached the subject in life because someone taught you asking such questions is wrong or immoral. Every man has the easy choice of suicide, we decide not to kill ourselves not because it's difficult, but because we think life is preferable than death, and whatever death might entail. Thinking about your own death and suicide only would lead to suffering if you thought the enjoyment/potential enjoyment in life was more valuable than the suffering.

“Can you no longer see a road to freedom? It's right in front of you. You need only turn over your wrists.”

>> No.13529976

>>13529970
Maybe someday if I find a girlfriend that will become my wife. I have no desire to pay an escort to strip me of my spiritual well-being.

>> No.13529982

>>13529969
Are you just saying suicide and never being born are different? Sure, but you're not making any argument. I assumed you were saying suicide (death) could lead to something worse than living. If you were not, you need to clarify your argument

>> No.13529985

>>13529727
"Presenting" the ideology is easy; entertaining an idea is easy.

Proselitysing is not; being willing to "bet" your life on an idea by ordering your decisions around its premises, likewise.

They are not the same thing.

>> No.13529992

>>13529975
Is that from Epictetus?

>> No.13529993

>>13529727
>Generate social dialogue
>Presenting
You are not "presenting", you are representing; shilling, to put it memely.

You do not mean to merely "present" the idea to a layperson; your subtext seems to be
>present it to the layperson
>such that he *accepts* it

Deceitful.

>> No.13529998

>>13529982
>Are you just saying suicide and never being born are different
yes
>but you're not making any argument.
That's the argument, you're adding an additional step to antinatilism because it makes you angry. If you want to be a vegan then the logical conclusion of veganism is killing non-vegans, if you want to "save the planet" then you have to kill off the people and other slippery slope bullshit. Open a logic textbook.

>> No.13529999

>>13529992
seneca iirc

>> No.13530000

because everyone knows deep down third worlders are not going to stop having kids so we just gotta keep up

>> No.13530001

>>13529999
nice

>> No.13530006

>>13529938
>If you're just saying "too scared" to kill yourself, you are implying there is something in life which makes it more enjoyable than death.

people are not afraid of death, they have a death phobia. phobias are irrational

>> No.13530009

>>13529975
I honestly can't believe you're older than 20, and I'm 100% sure you have never attempted to kill yourself.
It's not even a starter, there is scientific literature on this, and if it wasn't objectively measurable, I would still have my own personal anecdotes about the failed attempt I had.
You're an incredibly edgy shallow childlike person. Grow up a bit.

>> No.13530013

>>13529998
You are such a brainlet holy fuck, the entire point of anti-natalism is that potential suffering outweighs non-existence. Anti-natalists then make the logical conclusion that one should not have kids because of this.

>> No.13530015

>>13530000
but whites aren't keeping up, it's over for you huwhite bois

>> No.13530017

>>13529950
>"I wish I hadn't been born"
So practice anti-natalism, you'd be doing the right thing for your kids. What makes you think you need to preach it? Not everyone else in the world is as hopeless and maladjusted as you are. Unless your anti-natalism is selective and not universal, in which case it amounts to a personal attack on ugly women and the like.
In any case, how does preaching anti-natalism benefit anyone other than yourself and your own sense of envy and bitterness?

>> No.13530022
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13530022

Cui Bono?

>> No.13530023

>>13530009
Clearly you didn't want to commit suicide, if you had you would've used something more final. If you really believed biological urges were impossible to overcome, you would not advocate an ideology that tells you to act against those same urges in terms of reproduction. Same goes for >>13530006

>> No.13530028

>>13530022
but iirc hank schrader didn't have children or did he

>> No.13530030

>>13530017

It benefits people like me who are birthed by people like you. You are making bets with someone else's life, having incomplete information about the outcomes. It's not that hard to understand.
Just because you are "happy" (and I honestly doubt anyone in this imageboard comes close to that) it means absolutely nothing about your children. How can you bet that your children won't end up like me? You can proceed to give any retarded answer about how you're gonna raise them right or whatever the fuck. You don't control fate.
Only if one day we find a way to fully control fate or something like that it would be justified for people to have children. I'm already born. It doesn't matter now. But why should we put more people in the earth just to see what happens?

>> No.13530032

I've never met an anti natalist who wasn't a white cuck, loser ideology. It's simply not possible to be a happy sucessful person and be an anti natalist

>> No.13530037

>>13530030
most people are happy loser, don't project your sadness onto other people

>> No.13530040

>>13530023

>Not orgasming inside of a woman is of the same level of difficulty as harming yourself fatally by your own hands.
Also again, your teenage level argumentation has been disproved. You think you're the first one that said these things about suicide but it's not a new thing. People have been doing it for a long time, it has been studied for a long time, and you're an idiot. I'm not even sure why I'm replying to you as your only intent is to make sure people suffer more, or driving them into even riskier bets like suicidal actions. You are exactly the problem.

>> No.13530042

>>13530030
Stop being such a crybaby jesus christ, if your life is so full of suffering you would blow your brains out, stop being such a hypocrite

>> No.13530048

>>13530037
It literally doesn't matter, you absolute fucking brainlet. Even if 80% of mankind is happy and 20% is "loosers xD" like me. You can't guarantee your child won't be one of the 20%. That's the fucking point.

>> No.13530057

>>13530013
if you admit that having to commit suicide and never being born are two different things, then your whole argument about antinatalists having to commit something completely different is not related to antinatalism, you're adding something new to it, same as a vegan now has to kill meat-eaters to protect animals

>> No.13530060

>>13530048
so because some people might get butthurt we should just scrap everything?

>> No.13530063

>>13530040
>denying every fiber of your being and the entire purpose of life because some retards on an imageboard said so is much easier than pulling a trigger or falling asleep in a garage
YIKES dude, the mental gymnastics here are insane. It's fine, I'm not saying you should kill yourself, but if you want to follow the logical conclusions of your own arguments, you would absolutely do so. This is why nobody takes anti-natalism seriously

>> No.13530066

>>13530023
not all biological urges are equally strong. i dont go out and rape women when im horny. but i do feel immense fear and anxiety when actually planning a suicide. i know life is meaningless and death is preferable. unfortunately the human race has been evolving very strong, automatic responses to danger no matter if its coming from a third party or yourself

>> No.13530079

>>13530057
>If you admit that life involving suffering and not having children are two different things, then your whole argument about anti-natalism being the best option is not related to life.

Do you see why you're a retard now? Does it make sense to you? Do you really not know how logical conclusions work?

>> No.13530081

>>13530048
but most will be happy dumbass and their happiness matters more than a smaller number of losers being sad

>> No.13530084

>>13530060
Because we can't control how hurt people will get, anon. You don't know how much your child might end up suffering and you can't avoid it, even if you love them very much.
>>13530063
The logic conclusion of my argument is trying to minimize as much suffering as I can in my life, in the life of the ones I love, and others, while not striving to make bets with the lives of my children if I can't avoid them suffering. That's just it. You advocating for people to kill themselves and demeaning them for not doing so should really make you think about your whole "morals" and "purpose of life", you hypocrite brainlet.

>> No.13530086

>>13529727
>What would be an effective way of presenting the ideology to the layman
By going to a graveyard, digging yourself a hole and laying down in there and going to sleep.
Stop posting here.

>> No.13530089

>>13529837
stop with big leaps here brainlet, antinatalism is not about suicide

>> No.13530090

>>13530084
Not either of those anons, but you should embrace the spiritual life. :^D

>> No.13530091

>>13530079
lol pathetic, how sore you are at being btfo'd that you'd jumble up my words in an incoherent manner, makes me laugh, this is why nobody takes you self-replicating npcs seriously

>> No.13530092

>>13530066
If you thought the "danger" of death was preferable than the "danger" of suffering in life, you would commit suicide. Again, you are disproving your own argument. People don't rape women because they can satisfy the sexual part of their urges almost immediately. The biological urge to continue your DNA is not always related to success, which is why almost anyone will sacrifice their life to keep their children alive. The entire point of life is reproduction, if you can deny this biological urge you can deny the biological urge to avoid danger

>> No.13530099

>>13530084
You could by definition remove all possibility of suffering by committing suicide. I am not advocating suicide, I'm trying to show how retarded your argument is, that you yourself don't even believe it. I'm demeaning you because you're a brainlet.
>>13530089
Anti-natalism is a big leap in and of itself

>> No.13530100

>>13530086
You use a tripcode in a chan. You are literally the bottom feeder of the human race.

>> No.13530105

>>13530091
Damage control

>> No.13530111
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13530111

>>13529727
By your tone and argument I one hundred percent agree that you should not be having children. At the same time I don’t think you understand what you are asking from us. Let me tell you what you are asking from us. You are asking from us to help you create a convincing argument that will convince people that your stance in your own personal life is not only correct for you, but that it should be convincing to such an extent that it would correct for everyone. From this I extrapolate, and I believe correctly, that in order for you to feel comfortable in this decision in your own personal life you need to feel like it’s the right thing to do for everyone. So already there is a confession, that is, an implicit discomfort in your own personal decision that you feel would be made more confident by the support of others and this support would be have to be facilitated on a certain system of logic that correctly describes non-generation and anti-natalism as objectively true, and you would like us to help you think this out. lmao

>> No.13530112

>>13530099
>Anti-natalism is a big leap in and of itself
word salad

>> No.13530119

>>13530099
The only way to remove suffering by definition is by not being born. Suicide is a bet. Even jumping from an airplane won't assure you die. Even shooting your own face with a shotgun at pointblank will ensure that. Just look it up.

Stop driving people into making stupid bets with their lives. They are already unlucky enough they were born. Stop making things worse. Just stop it. You gain nothing by hurting others. Have kids if you want, but stop trying to make people do stupid shit like trying to commit suicide. If you weren't an edgy kid you'd understand how irresponsible and hypocritical what you're doing is.

>> No.13530122

>>13530112
>anything I don't understand is word salad
I'll assume your first language isn't english; anti-natalism says that life inherently involves suffering, and non-existence removes all possibility of suffering. They then make the leap that you should therefore not have children. I'm saying that if they really believe living was less preferable than death or non-existence, they would commit suicide. You can believe both are big leaps, or neither. But you cannot pick and choose without being hypocritical.

>> No.13530123

>>13530105
you should follow the logical conclusions of your ideology and rape women

>> No.13530125

>>13530119
this is some good bait I must say sir

>> No.13530129

>>13530119
There are plenty of sure fire methods for suicide, there is only a gamble involved if you are lazy or prefer living. Stop lying to yourself, you're not an anti-natalist, you just don't want to have children.

>> No.13530131

>>13530086
do not post in my thread, brainlet

>> No.13530133

>>13530123
>follow the logical conclusions of your ideology and have sex
>follow the logical conclusions of your ideology and protect your children
Was this supposed to be an argument? Lol

>> No.13530137

>>13530129
I'll stop replying to your bait. I just wish people like you didn't exist because some poor brainlet out there is gonna believe you and make himself a vegetable and suffer for decades, and you won't bat an eye.
Your existence just makes me more sure anti-natalism is the only reasonable moral position. Wanting others not to suffer is enough to make people like you try to push us into stupid suicide bets.

>> No.13530140

>>13530133
follow the logical conclusions of your ideology inseminate as many women as you can, preferably through rape

you just can't admit you went all slippery slope

>> No.13530146

>>13530122
people are antinatalists for different reasons, you are just speaking of one
>are you a christian, go die in a cross LOL

>> No.13530152

>>13530137
>he hasnt read the suicide book
Yikes, suicide is very easy chief. I'm glad you wont be reproducing, just dont be surprised when people call you a hypocrite. Your actions remove the teeth from your argumentation.
>>13530140
>rape is illegal and will land me in jail
>having consensual sex with as many women as possible will not
Why is this so hard for you? The clear biological choice is consensual sex; if we were living in a non-legal society with no consequence, then your argument might make more sense. But I have no reason to rape anyone when I can just as easily have consensual sex with them.

>> No.13530154

>>13530092
ok, you are actually retarded or 16. im not disproving my argument youre too fucking dense to understand anything i say.

>> No.13530162

>>13530131
I would be more than happy to oblige, but I am unable to tell you from a hole in the ground.
Kindly don a name so that I might avoid your foul stench

>> No.13530165

>>13530154
Damage control
>>13530146
>no true scotsman
You're right, everyone else isn't a REAL anti-natalist like you. Why don't you provide one of those reasons instead of just saying they exist?

>> No.13530178

>>13530165
what damage, faggot? should i keep discussing something with someone that clearly do not understand anything and just repeats the same tired bullshit over and over even though that bullshit has been refuted every time?

>> No.13530182

>>13530162
aaw, how cute! the brainlet trying to insult. because youre so slow i will repeat myself

DO NOT POST IN MY THREAD!

>> No.13530188

>>13530178
>if I say I refuted your argument maybe people wont think I'm a fumbling retard
Damage control

>> No.13530191

>>13530165
>Damage control
>the guy that thinks not having children and suicide are the same thing thinks he's winning the argument

>> No.13530199
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13530199

>>13530182
>Trying
Wouldn’t think of it. Though clearly I have set you off. Do you have a condition? Does it require some medication? Perhaps you ought to take a break from this sort of stimuli as it is clearly agitating you

>> No.13530201

>>13530191
>maybe if I obscure my opponent's argument in a greentext people wont think I'm a fumbling retard
Damage control

>> No.13530203

>>13530188
>Damage control
Damage control

>> No.13530208

>>13529727
What? Antinatalism is increasingly the mainstream ideal bro. At least if you're white. Not sure if this has economic value or just a side effect of anti-white ideology popular these few decades.

>> No.13530209

>>13530203
>maybe if I repeat my opponent's insult I wont appear like a fumbling retard
Damage control

>> No.13530211

>>13530199
oooh, more original insults. did you ask your caretaker for some advice this time?

>> No.13530218

>>13530209
Destruction control

>> No.13530227

>>13530218
>maybe if I use a synonym for the first word of my opponent's insult I wont appear like a fumbling retard
Damage control

>> No.13530240

Do anti-natalists support the abolition of the human race or just the abolition of the people that populate their immediate surroundings? Also I don’t get how people can’t see the suicide connection because children are “your” connection to the future, the decision to have them an affirmation of a will to live forever. Not that this makes perfect sense but this is a kind of primordial assumption that most of the normies you so deride hold to. The decision to not have kids is in this sense a will towards death or eternal rest as opposed to eternal life.

>> No.13530281

>>13530240
1. Imagine a man who is an anti-natalist.
2. The man don't have children.
Where do you see suicide in the above sentences?
And by the way, humanity is doomed anyway. The heat death of the universe is imminent.

>> No.13530287

>>13530281
So why not have kids

>> No.13530302

>>13530281
every ideology leads to either suicide or rape

>> No.13530303

>>13530287
> why not imprison a soul into a meat bag with bones and blood for a literally endless suffering in samsara

>> No.13530313

>>13530281
Plenty of people don't have children, holding to an ideology based on not having children is different than incidentally not having them. Also, I didn't say "dude just kill yourself lmao", I said that the decision to choose oblivion for future generations via anti-natalism represents a suicidal WILL, that is, the assumption you are making for them that non-existence is preferable to life. Calling this suicidal requires a final step however; that you, who would choose non-existence for future generations, would have chosen non-existence for yourself had you had the chance to stop your conception. As I said, a suicidal will.

>> No.13530317

>>13529727
As I see it, there are two ways to approach antinatalism. One is personal, while the other claims to be universal.
You are trying to convince others to follow antinatalism, so you must either be insecure in your decision or believe your ideology to be universally applicable. In the second case, you are calling for the destruction of the human race in its entirety. That means, based on your incredibly limited present knowledge, you would deny every subsequent generation the opprotunity to approach the problem of suffering.
You are assuming that, at no point in human history, life will be preferable to nonexistance. If there is even the minutest chance that the problems of suffering and death are addressed in the future, it is unethical to deny humanity that chance.
It's almost like you are too blind to see past your own suffering and into the possiblities that mankind's continued existance presents. Antinatalism only makes sense if you place yourself and your own perspective above everything else.

>> No.13530322

>>13530303
>literally endless suffering
Everyone leads a life of endless suffering, or are you just a neurotic and depressive person, one of many human types? Please show us how everyone leads a life of endless suffering.

>> No.13530337

>>13530313
>suicidal will
So what, is that a bad thing?

Imagine absolutely rational billion IQ points AI. What do you think would be the first thing it will do first? Shut itself down. Being is pointless and absolutely rational machine would not hesitate to just end such a pointless state.

>> No.13530346
File: 1.86 MB, 3000x1800, syrian refugees.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13530346

anti natalists: we should abstain from having kids

corporations and politicians:

>> No.13530362

>>13530337
>Of course I know the conclusions that a not yet existing being of pure reason would come up with
You do not and no one does.

>> No.13530364

>>13530346
corporations and politicians would do the same anyways. nigs & sandnigs importing is a natural economical process

>> No.13530367

>>13529727

OP, how do these conversations usually go?

>> No.13530370

>>13530362
Reason to exist is nowhere to be found, it's just how this world was designed to be.

>> No.13530381

>>13529727
>Hi, I want to introduce you to my obscure, anti-life philosophy
People: Go away, weirdo

>/lit/, why is everyone so irrational?!

>> No.13530387

>>13530287
>"welcome to the labor camp, prisoner #7721162634, here you have two choices: work or die."
I'd feel like a real jerk.

>> No.13530410

>>13530387
>not being a socialist
Trump or Hillary?

>> No.13530888

>>13529727
>normies
normies can't dialogue anything, anon.
Try rhetorical speeches that flatter them with images of honor/morality/solidarity

>> No.13531014

Youre hanging out with the wrong type of normies, milquetoast latte leftoids on fb are all about not having kids because of late stage capitalism hellword or some shit like that.

>> No.13531457

>>13530030
I don’t give a fuck about the suffering of pathetic people like yourself. If my children become pathetic then let them suffer. I’m taking a bet that my child will be able to shoulder the weight of existence and become strong enough to overcome it. I value that sort of heroism too much not to take it.

But go ahead and let your genes die out, it’s no skin off my back.

>> No.13531576

>>13530208
>economic value
Kids are expensive.

>> No.13531585

>>13529727
Oh i dunno
Perhaps Because It's contrary to the very deepest instincts inherent the human mind and as such people have justified emotional reaction to it?