/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13502779]

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns? His own imagination was not enough? Old Fakey decided to "borrow" some of that sweet Finn stuff and give no credit?

>Tolkien declares the following “I mentioned Finnish, because that set the rocket off in story. I was immensely attracted by something in the air of Kalevala. “ (Letters, 214)
>The Kalevala, The Story of Kullervo and Silmarillion are my most important materials as they are all quite directly related to one another. Túrin quite clearly is a counterpart for Kullervo and these three books are linked the most strongly by that one character.
>The character Túrin Turambar who appears in both Silmarillion and Children of Húrin is very like the character or Kullervo of Kalevala in his life story and characteristics. Silmarillion was also said by Tolkien in the Letters to be “the germ of Silmarillion” (Letters, 87)

What about Fëanor, Ilmarinen, Silmarils and Sampo? Those surely have nothing to do with each other and the Silmarils must be invention of Tolkien's? In an essay "What J. R. R. Tolkien Really Did with the Sampo?" Jonathan B. Himes claims Sampo to be the main source of inspiration for these gems. According to Himes in the first paragraph of his essay, Tolkien used for example the themes of paganism, stark moral and corruption caused by the endless riches provided by Sampo in the magical Silmarils.

Tolkien’s attitude towards his own works was (as quoted by him):
>“[He talks] about his book not as work of fiction but as a chronicle of actual historical events.; he seems to himself not as an author who has made a slight error that must now be corrected or explained away, but as a historian who must cast light on an obscurity in a historical document.”

Is it safe to say that he did nothing else than channel the Kalevala, the epic of the Finns, to the ignorant masses that are Tolkien readers? Who cannot see past the Germanic names such as Gandalf and cannot understand/accept that the whole epic of Silmarillion was just Kalevala and actual retelling of the magnificent history of Finns and their ancient demigods/heroes?

There has been countless academic studies written on this matter, yet most people on this board still deny the chief influence of Silmarillion, Lord of the Rings to be the Finnish epic Kalevala, and instead deny its influence and say factually incorrect things like "No. Kalevala was just one of the many influences. Beowulf was a great influence too. So was Bible"

While the truth is, that the main body of Silmarillion, the skeletal structure of the story and even the flesh of its body of work, is literally the Finnish Kalevala. Other mythologies or stories of the Bible, or like the Beowulf or Norse Eddes, constitute only 5-10% of the Silmarillion mythos, while 80-90% is Kalevala.

Why still people try to deny this, or try to deny this, while even academic studies agree that Silmarillion was simply Kalevala for English readers.

[Anonymous No.13502820]

>>13502779
So? He got inspired by Finns folklore. Your point being?

[Anonymous No.13502838]

>>13502820
Why not give Finns credit then?

[Anonymous No.13502844]

>>13502838
He did. You quote him doing so in the OP. What was he supposed to do, write 'inspired in part by Fingolian folklore' on the cover?

[Anonymous No.13502852]

>>13502844
Those are from his private letters, old fakey never publicly declared what a hack author he was

[Anonymous No.13502988]

So old Fakey wrote a book that is 90 % identical to Kalevala but thats ok because Gandalf is the name of some fucking gnome in old norse? I dont think so

[Anonymous No.13503006]

>>13502988
He synthesized the work. Regardless of how you feel about it, or how much he drew from the finnish inheritence, Tolkien's creation is his own. Besides, those who knew of the Kalevala before being exposed to Tolkien's work, are the ones whose interest in the Kalevala actually matters. The similiar can be said of those whose interest in the Kalevala was increased since the exposure to Tolkien's works, and knowing that this was his inspiration, was left wanting to drink from the selfsame fountain.

[Anonymous No.13503028]

>>13503006
What Tolkien did to Kalevala is similar what Melkor did to the original song of Iluvatar. Or like Morgoth who corrupted the pure elves and created the hideoua Orcs. Perhaps Tolkien inserted himself in the books as Kalevala who like himself stole the Silmarils (or should I say Sampo?) from the Finns

[Anonymous No.13503289]

>>13502852
He never published any of the Silmarillion work during his lifetime either (beyond the appendices), and he was always upfront about his sources. Remember he used that as background material trying to reconstruct a lost English epic that could have been. Besides, you're greatly underestimating the amount of original material in his fiction, and calling Tolkien a "hack" is just idiotic.

[Anonymous No.13503328]

>>13503289
The only underestimation here is the undeniable Finnish influence which Tolkien and whole anglo world should be grateful for

Old Fakey stole from the Finns, yet the Finns have been humble and have not even asked for recognition. Is it too much for you to admit that Silmarillion is nothing more than Kalevala for the dumb idiotic masses that are Tolkien readers?

[Anonymous No.13503405]

>Be Ol' Fakey
>Steal from the Finns
>100 years later movies are made out of your stories
>He was a genius, genius imagination
>Only anglo could have come up with something like this, so genius

The Finns shake their heads

[Anonymous No.13503413]

>>13502779
Imagination is a spook, everything good is a retold copy of older themes

[Anonymous No.13503420]

>>13503405
Don’t forget inspiring everything in the medieval fantasy genre since, as well as DnD, which in turn influenced videogames heavily

[Anonymous No.13503428]

>>13503420
Without the Finns the only thing Old Fakey could have achieved writing would have been children stories like the Hobbit

The Kalevala provided a perfect framework, metaphysics and lore to build a world mythos to tie his little Tim Bambadello children dolls to have some sort of serious character: all the while Ol' Fakey harvests the credit yet the Finns stay humble

[Anonymous No.13503471]

All great modern fantasy/sci-fi is founded on the author's ability to fully comprehend, digest and re-imagine a period in history or historical document. That is the only way you can make something new, yet familiar. Something truly new will be alien and pure art and won't fit into the science fiction or fantasy genres.

[Anonymous No.13503481]

>>13503471
Aren't you underestimating the Finnish influence? The point of this thread that it was no The Bible, not the Eddas, not the Norse sagas or Beowulf that influenced Tolkien: it was nothing else than the Kalevala, the epic of the Finns that made him to write Silmarillion in the first place

[Anonymous No.13503526]

>>13502779
Oh look, this again.

Nobody is "denying" anything. I'm just sick of this dumb fucking subject. Nobody cares. You could tell me Tolkien was a pedophile who liked to set cats on fire, and I wouldn't for a moment feel less nostalgic about growing up with LOTR. Find something real to obsess about.

[Anonymous No.13503536]

>>13503526
Typical, ignorant Tolkien reader

>I don't care if Old Fakey faked it all! I love the stuff! IT has everything I want, gnomes, elves, look the hibbit wahhh he has a cool sword look wahhhh

You are a fucking consumer. It is like discovering that the Pizza is traditional italian dish yet a manchild just denies it all "I DON'T CARE! AMERICA! AMERICA! AMERICA!"

Have respect

[Anonymous No.13503545]

Go back to your dilapidated lake-cottage you drunk bearfucker

[Anonymous No.13503595]

>>13503328
It's painfully obvious that you even haven't read the Nibelungenlied or Völsunga saga. Equally you know nothing about William Morris's later romances and the Icelandic sagas that shaped his work, or George MacDonald's fantasies, or any of the other crucial sources for Tolkien. You're profoundly ignorant and harping on one note because that's the extent of your knowledge, and you're a waste of time. Sit down, kid. Having read the Kalevala or being Finnish doesn't make you a scholar. I'm done with you.

[Anonymous No.13503607]

>>13503595
Another post trying to deny and downplay the Finnish influence. You are probably ignorant of the fact that even the language of high elves, Quenya, was modeled after Finnish

Not old norse, not some old German script: you hear me: Finnish

The fucking elves of your childhood speak the native tongue of my beautiful country. Have respect, that is all I ask.

Humble yourself for once.

[Anonymous No.13503659]

>Be Ol' Fakey
>Fake it till you make it
>100 years later have hordes of fanboys defending you even in death
>Someone calls you out and tells that the stories itself were not his
>WE DON'T CARE IF OLD FAKEY FAKED IT ALL! IT'S THE STORY THAT MATTERS!

Yet the anglos are willing to apologize for the slaves they took from Africa, but to recognize the Finnish influence on LOTR is simply too much?

[Anonymous No.13503680]

>>13502779
ABSOLUTELY SEETHING

[Anonymous No.13503682]

>>13503607
Nobody gives a shit. Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.13503688]

>>13503536
>America!

Your simile is shit. If anything I'm like an american who finds out pizza is an italian wish and says "What am I going to do with this information? Is pizza still pizza? Okay." While you stand there shouting "Italy! Italy"

Find the nearest intersection and lie down in it.

[Anonymous No.13503705]

>>13503607
What do you actually want to achieve here? Nobody is telling you you're wrong. Nobody is denying anything other than the relevance of the information. What do you want? A fucking holiday? Ceremonial remembrance of the Finns? A tolkien book burning? Should we put "inspired by the Greeks" on the rest of western literature?

It simply doesn't matter. Get a job.

[Anonymous No.13503740]

>>13503688
>>13503705
>WE DON'T CARE IF OLD FAKEY FAKED IT ALL! WE DON'T CARE!

Excuse me? Is this not the literature board? Just try to forget that the nation on Finns exist? Just try to forget that Kalevala is still relevant?

[Anonymous No.13503786]

>>13503740
Say something about it other than the literature other than what it was inspired by. Make a point. Dont just repeat the information like it matters in and of itself and then accuse everyone of denial and refusal to acknowledge. You've been acknowledged. Now what of it?

[Anonymous No.13503797]

>>13503786
Well what do you exactly want?

For me it is clear that Tolkien himself inserted his character into the books as Melkor.

The original song (Kalevala literally is a song, according to folk tradition, which the ancient rune singers used to sing) of Eru Iluvatar was corrupted by Melkor.

Just like Tolkien corrupted The Kalevala for his own designs. Just like the Sampo is the original symbol for Silmarils, Tolkien (or Melkor) steals the Silmarils from the Elves (and the Elves speak Quenya, which is derived from the Finnish language )

It seems as if Old Fakey had a some sort of Freudian slip there. Sauron could be regarded as Christopher Tolkien who continued his father's work, just like after Melkor had been banished beyond the walls of night, Sauron achieves the new role of Dark Lord, or the Tolkien Estate and continues his vendetta against Elves (or the Finns)

Melkor = J.R.R Tolkien
Sauron = Christopher Tolkien

Not also that the black speech is derived from Old Norse, that is why people like Varg Vikernes found words like "Burzum" familiar to them, in contrast to high elven speech of Finnish designs.

Perhaps subconsciously Tolkien did insert himself in the books.

[Anonymous No.13503813]

>>13503786
What are you doing? Can't you see you're talking to a deranged individual?
The sooner you people stop replying to the autistic shitposter, the sooner he'll stop making threads.
I mean I guess if you think it's funny, go for it, but it seems like your replies are sincere

[Anonymous No.13503822]

>>13502779
Doesn't matter, the Finns are a weak people incapable of doing anything of value. Only the Anglo could find some small gems in the pile of cod smelling shit they uphold as culture. You should be thankful the world has forgotten that your best stories were best told by a foreign author because any other people would die of shame at the thought of a similar fate.

[Anonymous No.13503839]

>>13503822
>Doesn't matter, the Finns are a weak people incapable of doing anything of value.

You seem to forget that it is the only country in world history that was in active war against Britain, U.S.A, Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and was never invaded wholly and kept its independence.

Finland is an unconquerable fortress

[Anonymous No.13503854]

>>13503839
When was Finland in an active war against the USA or Britain? Was this before Sweden handed Finland over to Russia? or after Russia allowed them to leave while tearing itself apart?

[Anonymous No.13503856]

>>13503854
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/timeline/factfiles/nonflash/a1138501.shtml

[Anonymous No.13503882]

>>13503856
Ah, you're referring to the brief period after they had to capitulate to Russia and beg Germany to help them. You can't really call it an active war between Finland and the US or Britian when Finland was fighting the Soviets. I also wouldn't tout an unstable period where larger powers used your country's land as a skirmish ground without any regard for your countries people a proud moment.

[Anonymous No.13503898]

>>13503882
Another typical, ignorant comment and downplaying of the Finnish influence

Even the anglo actor, Christopher Lee, who played Saruman in the fakey movies, was a volunteer to help preserve Finland's independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Lee#Military_service_during_the_Second_World_War

So dear is/was the soil of the land of Kaleva to anglos that they were willing to even die for this country. But some of them (like old Fakey) decided to only steal its precious jewels and gems.

[Anonymous No.13503932]

>>13503898
What influence? The peasants on your strip of borderland cried to the Germans after being beaten down by Russia and then got to cry again when the Germans used scorched earth tactics in their retreat. And Anglos are willing to die for any cause anywhere, exploiting an actors willingness to leap into a land where he would get to fight two major powers to defend the impoverished Finns is celebrating your country's impotence.

[Anonymous No.13503977]

>>13503932
The Englishman lives upon the excrement of his
forefathers. There is no dignity to die for England, the national identity raised by the Kalevala (which was a mere glimpse into the Finnish folklore) was a strong enough to cause the youth of England to throw away their lives to defend Finland's national interests.

[Anonymous No.13504002]

>>13503898
>When the Second World War broke out, Lee volunteered to fight for the Finnish forces during the Winter War in 1939. He and other British volunteers were kept away from actual fighting, but they were issued winter gear and were posted on guard duty a safe distance from the front lines. After a fortnight, they returned home.
A truly splendid and harrowing display of sacrifice for the land of Kalevala.

[Anonymous No.13504011]

>>13502779
you are a gigantic faggot

[Anonymous No.13504029]

>>13503536
No american thinks pizza is "american" in origin. You're just an ignorant Yuropoor.

[Anonymous No.13504045]

The saltiness coming from the non-indo European language speakers.

[Anonymous No.13504086]

>pick an epic that absolutely nobody on earth has ever fucking read
>claim Tolkien copied it wholesale and it made up 90% of his writing
>no human can speak your finno-ugric horseshit language to check your story
I'm onto you Pekka

[Anonymous No.13504231]

>>13502779
Are all Finns like this?