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/lit/ - Literature

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1349114 No.1349114 [Reply] [Original]

What was Nietzsche's political affinity ? Classic liberal ?

>> No.1349115

I don't think it's really appropriate to characterize him as having any political ideology, frankly

>> No.1349119

>>1349114

Nope. Sword taotally doesnt make him look badass

>> No.1349120

I thought "the will" contradicted Reason,so he probably wouldnt consider himself a classic liberal although his entire ethos is derived from reason principles developed in those bourgeois projects of liberalism

>> No.1349127

Aristocrat. Uberman vs herd.

>> No.1349133

>>1349115
Commie scum desperately trying to brush over the fact that Nietzsche was an ultraconservative aristocratic anti-democrat reactionary who would have had nothing but the most biting scorn and contempt for the post-structuralist Frenchie fags claiming to work in his tradition.

>> No.1349148

>>1349115
There's nothing more to say.

Stop trying to stick a political label to everybody.

>> No.1349152

>>1349114

Anti-political. Which for Nietzsche translates into a sort of meritocratism. The merit, of course, being creativity (and the resultant creation of new new norms or values that Nietzsche thinks any genuinely creative act entails). Often the word "aristocratic" is used, but this is misleading, precisely because of the socioeconomic class associations that the word has.

>> No.1349153

Anything left of Hitler is judaeochristian slave morality.

>> No.1349154

>>1349127
Well the overman was a rare individual whom people look up to and gather around because of his creativity. He was a natural leader and its natural to the people to follow him. That is the meaning of artistocracy, rule of the best basically. But Im not so sure Nietzsche thought that the overman could be carried over by blood...so I doubt that a long line of artistocracy which is carried over by blood was to his liking.

>> No.1349157

>>1349114

Anti-political.

Which for Nietzsche translates into some sort of broadly apolitical meritocracy. The merit, of course, being creativity (and the resultant creation of new new norms or values that Nietzsche thinks any genuinely creative act entails).

Often the word "aristocratic" is used, but this is misleading, precisely because of the socioeconomic class associations that the word has.

>> No.1349163

Nietzsche was a Marxist with the mask of an anti-socialist on.

not kidding

>> No.1349171

>>1349153
Hitler was pretty much left wing if you look into it. Im not kidding, just ignore the bullshit that murrikan liberal college professors spew.

>> No.1349174

>Classic liberal ?

Nietzsche was too infatuated by the Ancients to be a relevant commentator on the modern politics which he despised. He expressed his distate for socialism, democratism and markets.
He refers to something he called "Great Politics" in his writings, perhaps you should look that up.

>> No.1349180
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1349180

>>1349171

Pic related.

>>1349174

To be honest, whenever I think of Nietzsche's relationship to politics, I think of this quote:

"And perhaps the great day will come when a people, distinguished by wars and victories and by the highest development of a military order and intelligence, and accustomed to make the heaviest sacrifices for these things, will exclaim of its own free will, ‘We break the sword,’ and will smash its entire military establishment down its lowest foundations. Rendering oneself unarmed when one has been the best-armed, out of a height of feeling – that is the means to real peace, which must always rest on a peace of mind. whereas the so-called armed peace, as it now exists in all countries, is the absence of peace of mind. One trusts neither oneself nor one’s neighbor and, half from hatred, half from fear, does not lay down arms. Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared - this must some day become the highest maxim for every single commonwealth."

>> No.1349182

>>1349174
Uh classical liberalism revered the ancients as well e.g. neoclassicism..Nietzsche was very much into the zeitgeist..a good lesson to you all..if you're not edgy enough now just give it a few hundred years.

>> No.1349189

>>1349154
protip: the overman doesn't exist.
protip2: aristocracy isn't carried over blood, that's nobility. It's the main difference between the two.

>> No.1349196

>>1349182
The zeitgeist? Haven't you read him? There's tons of pages where he bitch over 'modern ideas' and antisemitism.

>> No.1349198

>>1349154
aristocracy does not mean 'rule of the best,' nor is it about being a natural leader and having people follow you.

Go back to your history books before you can feel qualified to have an opinion again.

>> No.1349200

>>1349189
>the overman doesn't exist
Are you sure about that ?
>protip2: aristocracy isn't carried over blood, that's nobility. It's the main difference between the two
Originaly not but later it was.

>> No.1349205

"Wherever progress is to ensue, deviating natures are of greatest importance. Every progress of the whole must be preceded by a partial weakening. The strongest natures retain the type, the weaker ones help to advance it. Something similar also happens in the individual. There is rarely a degeneration, a truncation, or even a vice or any physical or moral loss without an advantage somewhere else. In a warlike and restless clan, for example, the sicklier man may have occasion to be alone, and may therefore become quieter and wiser; the one-eyed man will have one eye the stronger; the blind man will see deeper inwardly, and certainly hear better. To this extent, the famous theory of the survival of the fittest does not seem to me to be the only viewpoint from which to explain the progress of strengthening of a man or of a race."

Social darwinist and eugenicist. Free market capitalist.

>> No.1349207

>>1349198
>The term was derived from the Greek aristokratia, meaning "rule of the best".[1]

>> No.1349210

>>1349200
I'm pretty sure about it, yes.

>> No.1349218

>>1349163
I think you misunderstood him, or most likely have never read him.

>>1349171
Left wing tends towards equality; Hitler was very exclusionary in his view, and ennobled a somewhat traditional authority.

>>1349182
>Uh classical liberalism revered the ancients as well e.g. neoclassicism..

>Classical liberalism is a philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.[

This is so far removed from the ancients that I hesitate to express it. Not only was government seen as the house of the most noble to which the country owned most of it's glory (thus refuting "limited government"), but it was seen as self-evident that it was these noblemen's natural right to rule. Freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly were all severely restricted. Free markets did not exist in the time of the Ancients, but they surely would have disapproved of it's wanton nature and it's goal to satisfy the decadent lusts of the most common sort of man.

>Nietzsche was very much into the zeitgeist..a good lesson to you all..if you're not edgy enough now just give it a few hundred years.

Nietzsche was one of the few writers that was very much removed from the zeitgeist, owing to his determined solitude.

>> No.1349220

>>1349210
What would you call people like Joan of Arc then ? If she would not have the will power and the creativity of gathering people to follow her she would just be another forgotten peasent.

>> No.1349226

>>1349153
>>1349171

Hitler was a national socialist, or a parodical reaction to the judeo-christian nation. If Hitler was right wing then so are judeo-christians. Nationalist == socialist right, Internationalist == socialist left.

>> No.1349228

>>1349218
I never said classical liberals lived up to or believed in principal the same as the ancients--only that they revered them--they were fanboys like nietzsche (so laughable a teutonic classicist). Also, you believe he was removed from the zeitgeist and yet what of his beef with Schopenhauer and Wagner and the Socialists? These were pop pieces, and much of his work is reactionary to or occultly ancillary to the prevailing wisdom of his day.

>> No.1349232

>>1349218
>Left wing tends towards equality; Hitler was very exclusionary in his view, and ennobled a somewhat traditional authority.
Left wing in essence means that one is against the current establishment and in want of creating a new establishment. Hitler was anti monarchy, and constantly stressed how he wants to end the class divide in Germany and how his political pursuits are in favor of two people, the German peasent and the German worker. Not to mention the collectivized view the Nazis had, they wanted free healthcare and education for all Germans. There were right wing aspects to it also, such as propagating old moral values and whatnot.

>> No.1349233
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1349233

This is the most retarded fucking thread I've seen on /lit/ in a long time.

>> No.1349234

>>1349220
I think you don't understand the concept of the overman if you think Joan of Arc is one.

>> No.1349237

>>1349228
>Also, you believe he was removed from the zeitgeist and yet what of his beef with Schopenhauer and Wagner and the Socialists?

Schopenhauer and Wagner were probably the two most important men in Nietzsche's life barring only himself, and yet he came to reject both of them as well as socialism. By removed from the zeitgeist I mean opposed to it, not that he wasn't aware of it. In fact, I think he prided himself on his awareness.

>> No.1349246

>>1349226
People who want to maintain old judeo christian values and a system build aroudn them are obviously right wing. Socialism of any kind is left wing, its a progressive ideology which seeks to remove the current status quo.

>> No.1349248

>>1349180
Yes, I remember that quote. Is it from Daybreak?

>> No.1349249

>>1349234
Ignore the ideological writings for a bit. I just said that ''overmans'' exist and posted an example of what I think fits.

>> No.1349254

>>1349127

Poster of >>1349157 here. Wish "meritocracy" had come to mind when I was posting. You're spot on. I've been studying greek myth lately so I have the word aristocrat in it's classical form bouncing around in my head.

>> No.1349265

>>1349237
I know that he posed himself against culture, and yet where would his ideas be without the prevailing ideas in german philosophy? His ideas are entirely informed by Schopenhauer and Hegel, and his ruminations on the classical world are retreads of retread. Don't get me wrong, the man had incredible style and I give him a lot of credit for that (The same goes for Giles Deleuze, i like him but only for his style)
But as for being against the grain, Nietzsche reminds me of anarchists railing against capitalism and consumer culture as they sit comfortably in their parents house on a mac. They aren't completely hypocritical, just that their convictions are highly informed by the systems or beliefs they profess to oppose, and the fact that they don't admit this is what I take issue with.

>> No.1349276

>>1349249
But the overman doesn't exist... It's just a goal. Besides, Nietzsche wrote that the overman isn't idealist or humanitarian. And you think Joan of Arc is an example of that?...

>> No.1349291
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1349291

>>1349246
We're at cross purposes. Top left here.

>> No.1349299

I guess you could see the anti-classism and middle class-populous nature of the National Socialist movement as being "leftist". Many of the early brownshirts actually were leftist socialists who thought they were working towards... something they weren't. They bit the dust when the SS took over.

>> No.1349300

>>1349233

Why?

>> No.1349303

>>1349265
>His ideas are entirely informed by Schopenhauer and Hegel

>Schopenhauer
His views on women and aphoristic style certainly. Nietzsche analysed Schopenhauer's philosophy as being the pessimistic antithesis (not in the Hegelian sense) to his optimism. In that way he informed Nietzsche and perhaps some of his psychological insights and the concept of "Will" which Nietzsche was extremely inspired by. Nietzsche does recognise Schopenhauer as his "great teacher" so i'm not too surprised by any similarities.

>Hegel

I'm not aware of any of the parallels between Nietzsche and Hegel, but perhaps that is because I haven't read much Hegel. I don't see any dialecticism in his writings and he was against the Prussian state which Hegel advocated.

>> No.1349324

>>1349303
Well, Nietzsche definitely was at odds with both Hegel and Schopenhauer--and I guess being the fan of dialectics that I am, I see that as an intimate connection (so perhaps a lot of this is just my personal reading). I am not a great thinker when it comes to philosophy, it's only that I happened to read some Hegel just after reading some Nietzsche, and so I was struck by similarities--I ended up writing a paper on how Hegel influenced Nietzsche's ideas on the formation of personality, how Hegel's "self-thinking-thought" is related to Nietzsche's concept of the creative "Will". Essentially both were aspects of self-consciousness..at any rate..I only said all of this to say that the reason I might classify Nietzsche with the classical liberals is because I see his work as so intensely affirmative and idealistic--and so that is why I link him to the german idealism and classical liberalism that came before it..I would not deny that his perspective on these things was unoriginal--he did possess aesthetic-creative talent that was utterly lacked by Schopenhauer, for instance.

>> No.1349327
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1349327

Left-Libertarian.

"Reading through Mahatma Gandhi: Selected Political Writings, I'm finding a lot of correlations between the two though Nietzsche was very much so a pessimist.

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."-Friedrich Nietzsche

^if that isn't a quote advocating Left-Libertarianism I don't know what is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmf7ksraGSY

>> No.1349330

>>1349324
meant to say *i wouldn't deny that his perspective was original

typos

>> No.1349348

>>1349327
''Left'' Libertarian is an oxymoron really.

Anyway concerning Nietzsche

>Whom do I hate most among the rabble of today? The socialist rabble, the chandala apostles, who undermine the instinct, the pleasure, the worker’s sense of satisfaction with his small existence–who make him envious, who teach him revenge. The source of wrong is never unequal rights but the claim of “equal” rights

> The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

>How can one praise and glorify a nation as a whole?--Even among the Greeks, it was the INDIVIDUALS that counted.

I dont think one can actually fully fit Nietzsche into politics but his views were individualist to say the least, so leftist hipsters can kiss the claim of Nietzsche being on their side goodbye.

>> No.1349380

>>1349348

Libertarian on every issue except taxation... I guess. Because after all, all those social projects need funding :P

>> No.1349387

>>1349327
z rotate around the bottom-left to top-right diagonal to get >>1349291

In other words Hitler is in the wrong quadrant. Nazi germany finance was not libertarian.

>> No.1349388

social democrat

>> No.1349392

>>1349348
The use of the word 'libertarian' to describe a set of political positions can be tracked to the French cognate, libertaire, which was coined in 1857 by French anarchist communist Joseph Déjacque who used the term to distinguish his libertarian communist approach from the mutualism advocated by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.[16][17][18] Hence libertarian has been used as a synonym for left-wing anarchism or libertarian socialism since the 1890s.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#History

Socialist in France were first to use word libertarian. Libertarians as Americans know them were a group that spawned in opposition to FDR's New Deal.

I don't want to get into semantics, but you are wrong if you think left libertarian is an oxymoron. It's very well established, and has many political parties to this day across the world, it just has no support in America.

>> No.1349395

>>1349387

But he tolerated private ownership and busted the unions. He only reserved the right to take over a corporation at the drop of a hat should it be vital to the national interest (lol).

>> No.1349398
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1349398

>Socialism is the phantastic younger brother of despotism, which it wants to inherit. Socialism wants to have the fullness of state force which before only existed in despotism. ... However, it goes further than anything in the past because it aims at the formal destruction of the individual ... who ... can be used to improve communities by an expedient organ of government.

>The state is the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies, too; and this lie creeps from its mouth: `I, the state, am the people.'... Everything about it is false; it bites with stolen teeth.

>Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose.

>Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.

Social dem my ass. Social Democrats usually seek larger governments and more control over the normal Democrats.

>> No.1349404

>>1349387
Your compass is measuring different things than my is, I don't think it's fair to compare the two.

>> No.1349405

>>1349392
I see then, I admit I am wrong. Though in that case the word left liberal is an oxymoron.

>> No.1349430

>>1349395
>>1349404

No, there was little volatility in the markets, i.e., the economy was socialist.

>> No.1349434

>>1349430
You 100% sure about that ? Just a random guy here btw, I wanna know more about the economics of that time.

>> No.1349463

>>1349405
It's like saying something is a 'true fact', which joking aside is a phrase used often in Washington and pretty much describes perfectly how dire out predicament is.

All libertarians argue whether they fall on left side of spectrum or right is giving more power to people over their own lives. Left libertarians usually support a no-market economy with direct democracy while right libertarians support a full-market economy with little to no government intervention.

>> No.1349480

>>1349430
Under that logic, post WWII Germany was also socialist being that Allies controlled all their industries.

>> No.1349556

>>1349434
Sorry this isn't a very good reference but is impartial:
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/nazi-germany/pre-war-politics-1933-1939.html

"Repressive measures also kept volatility low, reducing inflationary pressures. New policies also limited imports of consumer goods and focusing on producing exports. International trade was greatly reduced remaining at about a third of 1929 levels throughout the Nazi period. Currency controls were extended, leading to a considerable overvaluation of the Reichsmark. These policies were successful in dramatically cutting unemployment."

>>1349480
How?

>> No.1349574

>>1349556

Sounds like a ringing endorsement.

>> No.1349585

>>1349556
We rebuilt the countries entire infrastructure just like Hitler did. All the factories we bombed and highways we gutted we rebuilt after the war for the Germans.

The whole Berlin airlift perfectly illustrates this. We poured tons of money into post WWII Germany.