/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13490383]

Is Christianity innately pacifist and liberal or is that a modern development?

[Anonymous No.13490408]

>>13490383
Chr*stianity is inherently false. Lose the chains of religion and become a rationalist.

[Anonymous No.13490412]

>>13490383
Pacifist read kingdom of god is within you

[Anonymous No.13490419]

>>13490412
Written by an atheist

[Anonymous No.13490432]

>>13490383
Religion is simply metaphysical politics.

[Anonymous No.13490448]

[Anonymous No.13490476]

>>13490383
Milo Yianopolous recently wrote about the gay inner circle of the Vatican and how the secret gays are the same that push for liberal interpretations, divorce communion, more roles for women. i didnt read it or spell his name correctly, probably. I just listened to his interview on the jp podcast.

[Anonymous No.13490487]

>>13490476
>Milo Yianopolous
Opinion discarded. You need to be older than 18 to post here, kid.

[Anonymous No.13490490]

>>13490448
>never in the thousand-year struggle between christians and moslems did it occur to a christian to surrender rather than defend europe out of love toward the saracens or turks?
didn't bosnians convert to islam to gain better social advantages in the ottoman empire?

[Anonymous No.13490511]

>>13490487
fuck you i'm 34. he happens to be one of the few people that can claim to have gotten Trump elected. pay attention to what happens around you, nerd.

[Anonymous No.13490534]

>>13490383
Not Christian, but why isn't everyone in the world pacifist? How can you ever support violence, ever? Don't we all have to be kind and compassionate to eachother, and never harm one another?

[Anonymous No.13490539]

>>13490534
absolutely compassionpilled. based anon

[Anonymous No.13490562]

>>13490490
>>never in the thousand-year struggle between christians and moslems did it occur to a christian to surrender rather than defend europe out of love toward the saracens or turks?
>didn't bosnians convert to islam to gain better social advantages in the ottoman empire?
Bosnians were historically bogomils.

[Anonymous No.13490569]

>>13490534
boys grow to men. that's why. some men are bad men.
>There's people living now ain't got no heart
And ain't ever had none

[Anonymous No.13490598]

>>13490511
>fuck you i'm 34
Oh god. You aren't one of those gamergators are you? News flash man child. The world is filled with bad people who screw people over. Just because your safe space of 'vidya' got violated doesn't make you special.

[Anonymous No.13490604]

Azad Ali is an Islamist thug.

[Anonymous No.13490615]

>>13490598
>t.Fragile Leftist.

[Anonymous No.13490618]

>>13490615
Assumptions, assumptions. Isn't WoW Classic out now? Go play that and attempt to relive the days of your misspent youth and leave reading to those who appreciate it.

[Anonymous No.13490624]

>>13490618
Reading quest text is my favourite thing to do in wow and classic has so many great story lines so whatever noob

[Anonymous No.13490630]

>>13490624
I'm an original everquest man myself

[Anonymous No.13490635]

>>13490534
Toplel m80, honestly being violent prevents passive aggressive torture mindsets because passivity breeds contempt for yourself

[Anonymous No.13490640]

>>13490598
screencap your goatee so i can show my niece.

[Anonymous No.13490703]

>>13490383
Christian values have become transvalued in the modern West.

[Anonymous No.13490711]

>>13490640
?

[Anonymous No.13490718]

>>13490383
No it's 350 years of liberalism which keeps evolving towards nihilism, Augustine is a good representation of christianity

[Anonymous No.13490736]

>>13490448
How does Carl Schmitt get even more based every time I read something of his? Is there a Carl Schmitt reading list?

[Anonymous No.13490754]

>>13490711
just laughing at you too hard to make sense, carry on

[Anonymous No.13490782]

>>13490718
they believe in false flags like an abstract "science" or "political science" that will lead to an end goal "utopia." the fact that liberalism doesn't work is being learned now, by the minority, under Trump of all people. Thus the animosity. But history will paint a broader picture. I never read Augustine, but just wanted to talk about the evolution part. nihilism is really a catchword for communism to me, but they have to have faith for it to come to be.

[Anonymous No.13490826]

>>13490383
Read up on the sociology of religion and religious studies, it's pretty clear that religious interpretation is flexible enough that people slot something as broad as Christianity into pretty much any political position

[Anonymous No.13490928]

>>13490618
No need for that m8

[Anonymous No.13490938]

>>13490383
look up 'just war theory' and 'the inquistion'

[Anonymous No.13490971]

>>13490383
It's a pacified bad interpretation of Judaism. Ex. Look at both versions of their 10 commandments.
Christianity:"Thou shall not kill."
Judaism:"Thou shall not murder."

Jews can still kill their enemies,Christians apparently cannot per definition.
Christianity has nullified the West to foreign invasion. Like destroying the white blood cells of the immune system.
Christianity is therefore a retrovirus.

[Anonymous No.13491003]

>>13490630
what did you play

[Anonymous No.13491033]

>>13490534
Not everyone is graced with a kind heart like you are.
Some revel in violence, others simply act on impulses; man is a dangerous beast and no matter how hard we may try, it is impossible to tame everyone.

[Anonymous No.13491035]

>>13490971
lolwhut. it's only after atheists and postmodernists and the socialists gain power that you see the west going down to refugee wave after wave. Christianity and its mandate ushered in colonialism all across the world and Europe's golden age in general. heck wars BETWEEN christians could fill an encyclopedia.

[Anonymous No.13492223]

it is literally impossible to read the Gospel in a way that is not absolutely centered around non-violence and love for the stranger

[Anonymous No.13492436]

>>13490408
Why is rationalism rational?

[Anonymous No.13492443]

>>13490534
The NAP is a poor standard of morality that makes men build unjust hierarchies and thrive in sin.

[Anonymous No.13492450]

>>13490534
>>13490539
>>13490569
>>13491033
based

[Anonymous No.13492457]

>>13492443
Even worse than that, the NAP is a tautology. Every moral theory is opposed to "aggression"; the question becomes what counts as aggression.

[Anonymous No.13493427]

>>13490971
Read Nietzsche stormfag

[Anonymous No.13493463]

>>13492457
Every moral system is opposed to some behavior. You could define all these behaviors as a type of "aggression" but that's not what people mean by the word or are attempting to convey with its usage in "NAP" so you'd be a pretty massive faggot.

[Anonymous No.13493471]

>>13490534
>why isn't everyone in the world pacifist?
Because the ones that aren't tend to reproduce more.

[Anonymous No.13493653]

>>13490383
Have you read the new Testament. Jesus rejects violence. While it could be debated wheter or not he can be considered pacifist, and while It is certainly true that some bible verses like >>13490448 and >>13490971 have been misinterpreted, it is clear that due to cristianity beeing defined more throu the old testament than the new one, that it is evident that rejection of violence, mercy and helping those in need are defining elements of christianity since they distinguish it from judaism.
>>13490534
Just because the use of violence causes others harm and suffering, that does not mean that one is not allowed to devend themselvef and others from receiving suffering and hurt.
>>13490511
>he actually thinks a degenerate like mile had a considerable influence on getting Trump into office.

[Anonymous No.13493668]

>>13490408
t. brainlet

[Anonymous No.13493680]

>>13490383
>Is Christianity innately pacifist
Arguably yes.
>and liberal
No.

[Anonymous No.13493693]

>>13492223
Love for our neighbors, you mean.

[Anonymous No.13493733]

>>13490383

>Pacifism

Matthew 10:
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.“

>liberalism
https://youtu.be/rRbfQrKcVjg

[Anonymous No.13493745]

>>13493733
That quote from Matthew 10 does not advocate or permit physical violence in any way.

[Anonymous No.13493756]

[Anonymous No.13493781]

>>13493756
Absolutely based.

[Anonymous No.13493793]

>>13490383
It's innately cuckoldry, literally a religion that worships and pays jews.

[Anonymous No.13493799]

>>13490534
>why isn't the sky purple and filled with unicorns!
If this millennium has taught me anything, it's that evil and war rule this planet. The only compassionate act is nuking everything and ending sentient life.

[Anonymous No.13493836]

>>13490476
vatican has been liberalized in the 60s and even further later
modern liberalization and reform movements are really just the most recent development of it

lets not mention the fact that 50 years ago without all that ebil modernization church would have supported executing people like milo

[Anonymous No.13493860]

>>13490383
A religion that tells you to attack certain people and how to sell slaves is extremely pacifistic.

[Anonymous No.13493865]

>>13490511
>fuck you i'm 34.
Now that's just more embarrassing. Why would you admit to having the mental faculties of a child as a grown adult instead of letting everyone think you're a child?

[Anonymous No.13493867]

The sermon on the mount is the core expression of christian values and ethics. It is one of the most important parts of the bible.

Anything from the old testament is jewish and usually full of inconsistencies.
The old testament should be printed as an appendix in the bible rather than considered an actual part of the bible.


Do they not print the sermon on the mount in American publications of the bible. American "christians" don't seem very familiar with it?

[Anonymous No.13494817]

>>13490383
>pacifist
yes
>liberal
no, at least not by the classical definition of liberal, since it inherently requires obedience to God

[Anonymous No.13494831]

>almost every single person ITT has a different interpretation

This is exactly why Protestantism was a mistake. Individual Christians, even intelligent ones, can never all arrive at a consensus for what Scripture means, because some are good, some are bad, some are intelligent, some are not so intelligent, and there is no coherent entity that compels them all to stick to a single interpretation.

[Anonymous No.13495468]

>>13490408
Emancipate yourself from an ideology to enslave yourself to an ideology.

[Anonymous No.13495544]

>>13490408
Not being both, defy God and sacrifice your soul for the good of your civilization.
Always the easy path right ?

[Anonymous No.13495548]

>>13490383
post enlightenment development

[Anonymous No.13495575]

Christianity is whatever people need it to be at the time

[Anonymous No.13495599]

>>13490383
Christianity is just an empty vessel for the values of any given time and place. Any use it had was in retelling values already present

[Anonymous No.13495607]

>>13490383
religion, together with all ideology, is a thin film dragged over the pulsating monkey beast we all are deep down. it's not a question of 'if' you will renounce your pacifism but 'when'

[Anonymous No.13495616]

>>13494831
>dude you christians are all stupid lmao why not just follow a strict interpretation handed down from some figurehead that is elected by pedophiles

[Anonymous No.13495774]

>>13490383
I wouldn't say it's innately liberal.

[Anonymous No.13495852]

>>13491033
Why is it "kind"? How can anyone ever feel okay with physically harming another person, or condoning such an action? The very thought of doing so brings me chills, and if I ever hurt someone like that I'd never be able to live with myself. I don't understand how others can perform such an action, or consider it acceptable in any situation except where it's used to prevent ongoing violence from being enacted further, and even there it should only be used as minimally as necessary to achieve the end.

All militaries of the world should be decommisioned, and all such activities (like arms manufacturing) brought to an end. And capital punishment has to go as well - use all criminals, no matter how bad they are, as a source of free labor. Just my views.

[Anonymous No.13495861]

>>13495468
Based.
Once one begins to look for truth he is already lost.

[Anonymous No.13495875]

>>13490598
damn man you sure got him, opened his eyes right up good job

[Anonymous No.13495899]

>>13490534
Unfortunately, it’s human nature. I was telling my friends I prescribe to “an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind” and they basically told me they would have no qualms killing people if it was for their “betterment”.

[Anonymous No.13495925]

>>13490383
I believe Christianity to be inherently pacifistic because it pretty blatantly says that if you're struck, turn the other cheek. This has historical connotations apparently because in Roman days I had heard that slaves are struck with the back-hand and an open-handed slap was something you only did to equals. So, if a Christian is given a particularly disrespectful back-hand, then offered the other cheek it forces the individual to either refrain from further violence or to see the Christian as an equal. Heard of something like that.

As for Liberal, I do find Christianity to be a very individualistic faith, with a personal individual relationship with God for every person. It's something that I find ties the individualism of Capitalism with Christianity, the importance of viewing matters on an individual basis instead of by the group is fundamental. Perhaps that's why the individual liberty, Capitalism, and Christianity of the West has lead her to become the greatest civilization in the history of mankind but the more group-based faith of Islam, and the group-based views of Socialism/Communism/Marxism, as well as authoritarianism in general, lead down bad roads of suffering.

Without Capitalism, or Christianity, or individual Liberty, the West would not be as good as it is. They are of fundamental importance, that's my view anyhow. The concept of 'individual' must be held to a higher significance than the concept of 'group'.

[Anonymous No.13495947]

>>13494831
But you run into a problem as a Roman when you realize, that your elected sovereign hermeneutic subject is not spared from the inescapable noetic effects of your western christendom / neo-augustinian conception of sin. This is why we need an orthodox account of anthropology and epistemology instead of western pseudo-manicheanism.

[Anonymous No.13495991]

>>13495947
Augustine is an authoritative teacher in your Church, too, Orthobro, and there's nothing wrong with his conception of sin. The fact that Luther and Calvin twisted it doesn't mean that it's not healthy in its own right.

[Anonymous No.13496986]

>>13495616
> thinks that a strict solid interpretation backed by millennia of intellectual reflection and tradition inherited by the apostles, Peter, and in turn Christ is somehow bad.
> Prefers Joel Olsteen and American "christianity" or modern "jesus was a sjw" liberal protestantism
> load catholics_are_pedophiles.exe to try to strengthen arguement.

Amerifag detected.

[Anonymous No.13497006]

>>13490511

[Anonymous No.13497021]

>>13495925
Were the pagan religions that came before less individualistic?

I seem to remember something about heresy in my Constantine-era Roman history lessons.

[Anonymous No.13497056]

>>13497021
I don't know much about Paganism and I don't have much interest on the matter.

[Anonymous No.13497504]

>>13490640
>Sorry what was that? Couldn’t hear you over the sound me fucking your bitch.

[Anonymous No.13497512]

>>13490408
Oh look another atheist missionary come to tell me about my chains

[Anonymous No.13497519]

>>13493836
This we have a fucking jesuit pope for god sake the vatican is long gone

[Anonymous No.13497540]

>>13497512
Just unchain yourself from the most onions and cucked religion.

[Anonymous No.13497569]

>>13495991
Maybe the orthodox is a bit too hard on Augustine sometimes, but >>13497519
basically reiterates his point, and it’s a pretty good argument against papal authority.

Maybe it doesn’t quite warrant throwing out a radical notion of sin, but it makes a good case for abandoning any atomized notion of interpretive authority, including leaving hermeneutic sovereignty to the papacy, which just equates to keeping the problem of the noetic effects of radical sin at an arm’s length without solving it. Let’s learn more on the consensus of tradition, especially the early councils.

[Anonymous No.13497578]

>>13490383


This book refutes any pacifist interpretation of Christianity

[Anonymous No.13497582]

>>13497578
Based Iljin-poster.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13497583]

>>13490476
Ratzinger is the biggest poofta of them all and he’s far from “liberal”

>>13490383
Modern as in NT, yeah.

[Anonymous No.13497606]

>>13496986

What is wrong with Americans? are they just religiously retarded?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13497613]

>>13497606
Redundant

[Anonymous No.13497615]

>>13497606
The grounds their country is built on are secular liberal tradition and religious modernism.

[Anonymous No.13497809]

>>13490383
Christianity certainly isn’t pacifist. The most cited passage in support of this claim is of course the command to ‘turn the other cheek’, but in the historical context of the ancient roman culture it really implies the opposite of pacifity. A slap on the cheek was a very common gesture to belittle individuals of lower social rank in public. The act of turning the other cheek in this context confronts the instigator; either ‘show your true colours’/lose your cool (which would be a source of embarassment for a roman, for whom a stoic conduct was one of the highest virtues) or recognize me as an equal. Jesus is preaching to the slaves and lower people and telling them to confront the belittlement they faced.

In extention of this more historically accurate interpretation, Paul actually speaks in Romans 12 of the christian’s call to confront and DEFEAT evil with good. The call to love thy neighbour for Paul also implies to hate and confront his sin. He doesn’t exactly talk of by what means we are to defeat evil by good, because ofc we know goodness is a teleological category.

Jesus himself would not refrain from confronting sin with physical force though; he chased the thieves out of the temple with a whip and turned over their tables. (John ch. 2) Also, when asked by the pharisees in John 18 why his followers had lead him be taken Caprice by the romans, Jesus says it is because his ‘Kingdom is not of this earth, if it was my followers would be fighting’; basically if the Kingdom of God would be immanently realized, christians would respond to Jesus’ call for them to be noble warriors for truth and goodness.

[Anonymous No.13497813]

>>13490534
literally only pacified westerners are nonviolent and even then they can be turned to attacking people in the streets if you feed them some buzzwords. everyone else is either habitually violent or easily engages in violence when there's something to gain.

[Anonymous No.13497837]

>>13493668
why am I laffin so hard

[Anonymous No.13497838]

Christianity are pacifists when they are weak, and when they get into control they will wreak cultures, peoples and civilizations. A lot of people complain about Christians today being cucked. They complain when the pope meets with some tribals or whatever, but they fail to see tha Pope Francis is doing exactly what his ancestors did. He have realized the weak position of Christianity and are therefore appealing to compassion and is seeking ecumenism.

This have all been done before. And one need only study the history of Europe to see it or see what is happening in countries like India and Nepal today. Pacifist and liberal Christianity is not a bug. Christianity is working as intended.

[Anonymous No.13497852]

>>13497809
No. Turning the other cheek was never meant to imply some fucking game where you play chicken with your bully that physically slapped you on one cheek in order to get him to slap you on the other so that he'll become embarrassed and all red in his face and stomp the ground running away and everyone watching will laugh at him and then carry you away on their shoulders cheering this epic maymay nerd vs chad High School-esque win of yours. Stop it.

[Anonymous No.13497917]

>>13497852
It’s not like I’m pulling it out of thin air, brudda. It’s a pretty common scholarly interpretation. Pic related is a popularization of it by a renowned professor of biblical exegesis.

Also, it’s not like this debate is new and I’m pulling this position out of thin air. Take for example the Christian exile writers of Russia following the 1918 revolution. The whole debate going on in letters and writings was whether their christianity was combatible with resistance against the bolsheviks or if the russians should resign like good fatalistic pacifists. Writers like Berdyaev thought the russians should take it like good cucks as a punishment from a wrathful God for their sin (like something taking out of the OT judaic covenant basically), while authors like >>13497578 and Ossendowski argued with basis in scripture for the ethical call for the christian to actually fight for good vs. evil and not roll over and let the demons who wage war against creation win.

[Anonymous No.13497925]

>>13490562
pre-ottoman bosnia was largely catholic

[Anonymous No.13497932]

>>13497917
Fair enough but the fact that people are debating fiercely on whether Christians should be cucks or not 1918 years after its establishment shows you that it is definitely not clear which approach is nearer to true Christianity. In 1918 liberalization had not been established mind you and the world was still "trad" so it's not an issue of the cucked secular world influencing Christianity.

[Anonymous No.13497945]

>>13490534
People are standing in the way of my happiness therefore I simply need to get rid of them to be happy

[Anonymous No.13497965]

>>13497932
It’s not different than any other doctrinal disagreement, and there are lots of them. Christianity is pretty splintered, between east/west schism and the reformed (which basically is the beginning liberalization of the Christian west, which intensified from the 19th century onwards.

And well, those guys debating this question of passivity vs confrontation in the face of evil in the 1920s were the first writing under full blown modern liberalization; establishment of Weimar was 1919. The whole fundie-modernist controversy in the US church was also happening at this time, while Barth wrote his Römerbrief commentary btfoing theological liberalism in 1923.