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13415141 No.13415141 [Reply] [Original]

What is the great American novel, if not this? It is unironically written perfectly.

>> No.13415143

Moby Dick

>> No.13415145

Oliver Twist

>> No.13415146

>>13415141
Moby Dick
Blood Meridian
The Grapes of Wrath
Catch-22
Catcher in the Rye

>> No.13415148

Nightmare on Elm Street

>> No.13415153

I laugh at anyone that unironically uses the term "Great American Novel" as if it is some literary award. Such a term is flung around at literally every second-rate author from the US. It is meaningless and stop using it.

>> No.13415156

>>13415153
A term is not meaningless just because you don't understand it.

>> No.13415163

Journey to the West

>> No.13415174

>>13415156
That's true, but also not relevant to what we are discussing. The Great American Novel is a meaningless term.

>> No.13415176

The Iliad

>> No.13415185

cryptonomicon

>> No.13416140

Moby Dick

>> No.13416248

>>13415141
>the great american novel

Yeah, this is a ridiculous concept. Theres many of those

>> No.13416266

>>13415146
Dont piss on my face with McCarthy and heller. Forgot a ton, too

>> No.13416671

>>13415143
>>13415146
>>13416140
As much as I love Moby Dick, it's just a manual for whaling

>> No.13416674

>>13416671
what?

>> No.13416693

>>13416674
It's a whaling manual written in the form of a novel, why else would he go into such detail of every minute detail of whaling and its origin?

>> No.13416692

>>13415141
The first great American novel was The Last of the Mohicans.

>> No.13416720

>>13415141
would its word count not qualify it as a novella?

>> No.13416724

>>13416692
Mark Twain would like a word with you, anon.

>> No.13416749

>>13416724
if you're talking about Huck Finn, I don't think the "Great American Novel" would end with 5 or 6 absolutely shit chapters.

>> No.13416750

>>13416671
you're right but it's not just a manual for whaling; it's the greatest manual for whaling, or for anything ever written

>> No.13416760

>>13415141
TGG is very representative; who can say it’s the greatest as this is of course a subjective judgement and therefore open to endless debate.

If you like TGG you should also check out The Damnation of Theron Ware by Harold Frederics. It’s quite a bit earlier than TGG but explores similar themes. Plus, you can brag about it here as nobody on /lit/ has heard of it, much less read it.

>> No.13416762

>>13416724
>implying 1826 wasn't 50 years prior to Tom Sawyer

>> No.13416778

>>13416749
>>13416762
You don’t know as much about 19th century American fiction as you think you do. Twain was a very prominent critic of Cooper.

>> No.13416816

>>13416778
I've never made a claim to the contrary. When Twain comes up in "greatest american novel" discussions, it's invariably about Huck Finn, which is why I brought it up. I don't know much about the beef Mark Twain had with James Cooper, and if I ever claim to you have every right to put me in my place.

>> No.13416862

>>13415141
Yes, it is.
Don’t know how the madman pulled it off.
Was like Beamon long jump.
Maybe the cause was the same

>> No.13416986

Infinite Jest

>> No.13417035

>>13416816
> I don't know much about the beef Mark Twain had with James Cooper
It’s time to educate yourself, anon! Twain wrote an essay very comprehensively listing everything wrong with The Pathfinder and The Deerslayer. It’s one of the better-known (and funniest) examples of literary shit-flinging out there. If you’re at all familiar with Fenimore Cooper (in the future don’t call him James Cooper, it’s déclassé), it’s a fun and quick read, and easily findable online.

Interestingly, Twain at the beginning of the essay lists Wilkie Collins as one of Fenimore Cooper’s admirers, and accuses him of not having read any of the man’s books. Collins himself is an interesting subject; his The Moonstone was arguably the first English-language detective novel and is a very entertaining read. The climax/explanation of the mystery is hilarious when viewed from a contemporary lens.

Sorry to digress. I really like American and English fiction from this era and rarely see it discussed here, apart from the meme authors.

>> No.13417066

It's The Grapes of Wrath and I'm not even kidding

>> No.13417078

>>13415141
>dude rich people problems lmao

East of Eden is the great American novel

>> No.13417106

>>13417035
thank you very much for the info anon, I'm reading the essay now, it's very entertaining. I'll add the Moonstone to my "to read" list.

>> No.13417119

What about the sound and the fury?

>> No.13417190
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13417190

>>13415146

>> No.13417233

The Bible

>> No.13417320

>>13417106
No problem, genuinely happy to be of help. Do read The Moonstone, it’s really worth it. The Woman In White, also by Collins, is worthwhile too, though I think lacks the charm of The Moonstone.

>> No.13417366

An American Tragedy obviously.....

>> No.13417396

>>13417035
I read it and it was just dismissive of romanticism and how it wasn't accurate to america. That doesn't make Last of the Mohicans not the first great American novel just because Romanticism makes things look better than they were. Is not the difference between drama and comedy that drama depicts man at his best and comedy at his worst according to Aristotle? And Twain was a satirist, a comic writer. That would be like someone complaining that The Count of Monte Cristo could never happen and isn't accurate to French aristocracy at the time.

>> No.13417399

It's obviously Moby Dick, why is anyone pretending otherwise?

>> No.13417454

>>13417078
>dude poor people problems lmao

>> No.13417466

>>13415143
/Thread

>> No.13417497

>>13417399
Contrarianism mostly. I could see and argument for Gatsby consider how clean and short/to the point it is, however.

>> No.13417552

The Mysterious Island
>it's about americans fuck off

>> No.13417609

>>13416693
Did you read the book the reason that so many things like this were explained (By Ishmael) is because Ishmael was trying his hardest to make the story realistic.

>> No.13417658

>>13417366
>An American Tragedy obviously.....
Have you read it? It’s enormously padded out and would have lost hundreds of useless pages had Dreiser had a competent editor. Sister Carrie is much better.
>>13417396
>That doesn't make Last of the Mohicans not the first great American novel
Hey, I’m not necessarily agreeing with Twain — just pointing out that his critique of Fenimore Cooper is fun and essential reading for anyone interested in 19th century American literature. Twain does make some good points, but overall beats the horse to death and then some. As for TLOTM being the first great American novel, probably you’re right, but let’s also keep in mind that Fenimore Cooper had precious few competitors in the 1830’s.
>>13417399
>why is anyone pretending otherwise?
It’s all subjective, so a good topic for discussion. After all, I could equally argue that Henry James is the greatest American author and The Golden Bowl the greatest American novel, and have just as much justification behind me — if not more — as you could have for supporting Melville and Moby Dick.

>> No.13417732

>>13417658
>I could equally argue that Henry James is the greatest American author and The Golden Bowl the greatest American novel, and have just as much justification behind me — if not more — as you could have for supporting Melville and Moby Dick.
only in your own bubble reality. everyone with standards would be busy laughing at you. it’s moby dick.

>> No.13417733

>>13417658
You're actually right....I didn't read it! I did read Sister Carrie though and I agree, it's a good contender.

>> No.13417739

>>13417658
Great poster.

>> No.13417781

>>13416693
No dummy, it's a novel written in the form of a whaling manual. Every single cetology and whaling chapter has some connection to the themes and imagery of the chapters set on the Pequod. Melville/Ishmael's failure to complete his catalog of whales, his inability to describe the whale as anything more than a collection of parts (the head, the skeleton, the tail, etc.) parallels Ahab's inability to capture and kill Moby Dick.
Melville should have stuck with his original title for the book and just called it "The Whale." People hear "Moby-Dick," and assume the book is just going to be about a single white whale, when in fact it has more to say about The Whale as a symbol and its significance for Ahab, Ishmael, and other characters.

>> No.13417785

It's Augustus by John Williams.

>> No.13417949

>>13417785
the only novel by J.W. that doesn't explain American society and mind set????

>> No.13417956

>>13415141
American Psycho

>> No.13418160

>>13417732
>only in your own bubble reality
Certainly not. James had a far more substantial body of work than Melville and most serious readers and academics would consider him the superior author (and, let’s be honest, Typee and Omoo don’t do much for Melville’s reputation). As for which wrote the “greatest” American novel, you’ll find many people saying neither, and that (for example) various works by Poe, Hawthorne, and Twain are superior. As I said, it’s subjective and no definitive answer exists, or will ever exist.
>>13417733
Sister Carrie is pretty good, isn’t it? Very racy for its time. An American Tragedy also has a strong sexual theme but, as I said, suffers from logorrhea.
>>13417739
LOL, thanks. Read The Moonstone — you absolutely won’t be disappointed.
>>13417956
Not Less Than Zero?

>> No.13418330

>>13415141
its really sappy but i still love it

>> No.13418346

>>13417949
That is why it's good.

>> No.13418350

>>13415141
You can’t wrap up the American experience as a whole in any novel. If you mean what is the greatest book written by an American it’s Moby Dick. But if you mean one for the state/ideals of America there are too many time periods and topics to cover. Gatsby, blood meridian, SH 5, Catcher, Invisible Man, etc. are all great in covering the American experience for specific people in specific times. the list could go on.

>> No.13418486

>>13417781
This. Not to mention the critiques of transcendentalism and challenging perceptions otherwise unconsidered in the American 19th c. His re-evaluation of savagery is really interesting in this regard. Ishmael realizes that all great minds are “savage” whether Western or Eastern and foreshadows how he himself becomes a savage after the end of the novel by his plan to tattoo his whole body with letters and symbols

>> No.13418631

>>13415141
Huckleberry Finn
Moby Dick or The Confidence Man
Absalom Absalom!
The Sun Also Rises

>> No.13418667

>>13415141
It's Lolita, you idiots.

>> No.13418801

>>13415143
Correct

>> No.13418804

>>13416671
Incorrect

>> No.13418842

The Old Man and the Sea