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/lit/ - Literature

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13373855 No.13373855 [Reply] [Original]

Is this an accurate summary of Marx's ideas? Too lazy to read Kapital btw.

>> No.13373860

>>13373855
biwoc?

>> No.13373863

>>13373860
Black, Indigenous and Women of Colour (including everyone who self-identifies as a woman)

>> No.13373890

>>13373855
>militancy
Revolution and total overthrow of the state, not protests and tweeting
>colonized nations
All nations are colonized by the capitalists
>sacrifice on the parts of whites and men
All would have to sacrifice for capitalism to be overthrown. The proletariat would overthrow all capitalist government and institute a socialist dictatorship with the ultimate goal of communism, meaning total equality - there is no equality if there are classes such as "men" or "whites" all would be equal, period.

>> No.13373955

>>13373890
This is all wrong. Read Marx.

>> No.13373990

For starters, Marx probably wouldn't take seriously anyone who referred to themselves as "coochie eater with chinese character"

>> No.13373993

>>13373890
>All would have to sacrifice for capitalism to be overthrown.
Property, human rights, children and food.

>> No.13374044

>>13373855
it means free stuff, not any of that bullshit

>> No.13374047

>>13373855
OP has anyone ever told you you're a total fucking moron?

>> No.13374056

>>13373990
Who cares. Marx was only but an agent of the League of the just.

>> No.13374057

>>13374047
Why would I be a moron my fellow 4channer

>> No.13374326

>>13373990
Wrong. Read Marx.

>> No.13374336

>>13373855
embarrassing, not literature

>> No.13374357

>>13373855
Wtf. is this the post-modern neomarxists Peterson cries about?

>> No.13374480

>>13373855
No.
>>13373990
Marx would 100% have tried to tap dat.
>>13374357
Probably, they're idiots.

Don't think you can replace class with race. If you are the bourgeois capitalist class, like coochie seems to be, expect to be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. Race doesn't come into it, it's not Manson's Helter Skelter ffs.

>> No.13374504
File: 32 KB, 500x725, owowo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13374504

>a bourgeois first world neoliberal gook immigrant roleplaying as a communist on twitter is telling people that REAL authentic communism is about neoliberal white guilt and giving trannies backrubs and that white men (overwhelmingly the main constituents of all historical communisms) are fit to be grateful mules at best, with the result that white men will be further alienated from what they now perceive as "communism" because they assume this grass-fed useful idiot is telling the truth, which will drive them further to the extreme right wing, where they might become volkisch socialists and/or national bolshevists, and this slight chance still makes them hundreds of times more likely to generate REAL authentic communism than the entire remaining self-identified left-wing

Modern politics is confusing

>> No.13374521

>>13373855
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_rebellion Read this and you will understand Marxism better than most of its adherents.

>> No.13374538

>>13373855
i think this person is friends with someone i know irl

>> No.13374550

>>13373855
Marx wouldn't be for reparations, "sacrifice of whites" or biwoc leadership. He avoided the issue of race on his public works and he was racist in private correspondence. He was also imperialistic. Figured the expansion of capitalism would mean the fading of feudal and slave institutions and pave the way for socialism.

Marx never had the patent on communism though, so that poster might not call herself Marxist even.

>> No.13374555

>>13373890
>the ultimate goal of communism, meaning total equality
Hilariously wrong. Inequality is presumed at every step

>> No.13374568

>>13374555
Only until the last institutions of capitalism fade, after that there would be an economy of free access, no division of labor and no proportional compensation which he considered product of a borgeois mindset.

>> No.13374569

>>13374550
Someone from the 19th century isn't racist just for using whatever the german equivalent of nigger was, and he wasn't imperialistic at all, he just said bourgeis imperialism would bring more benefits on the long run than aristocratic imperialism in situations where colonizations was inevitable (as in India). After the fact there are plenty of writings of his criticizing colonialism itself.

>> No.13374576

>>13374504
>(overwhelmingly the main constituents of all historical communisms)
there are more chinese communists than there are white people

>> No.13374585

>they didn't read Hitler's economic program and realized national socialism is the best socialism
u n i r o n i c a l l y

>> No.13374599

>its another Fartxist thread
Can you faggots go back to /lgbt/ and stop shitting up this board with your politics?

>> No.13374679

Not as I remember interpreting it. Iirc, it was just about sacrifice on the behalf of the rich for those who work. Modern dems and people try and social-ize it, which sounds obvious but I use that in terms of "relate it to social policy." School teaches communism as a government and not an economy, so they assume communism has anything to do with more than money, which it doesn't. But they try and bring race and gender and shit into somewhere it isn't. Communism is just about anti-wealth, which if you're against, that's fine. But just like the people who "believe it" that get it wrong clearly don't believe it, you need to understand it (and not just "I see what happened in da soviet union so I understand it just damn fine") to actually oppose it.

>> No.13374691

>>13374568
how the fuck would no division of labor work?

>> No.13374722

Communism is free time and nothing else!

>> No.13374738

>>13374722
That dude crazy af. When that hotep shot cops in Dallas he praised him like a martyr baka.

>> No.13374740

>>13374569
Wasn't thinking of negroes, Marx was racist against slavs because he called for their subjugation and treated whole nationalities as inherently less progressive than others.

"This splendid land (the Balkans) has the misfortune to be inhabited by a conglomerate of different races and nationalities, of which it is difficult to say which of them are most incapable of progress and civilization..." Marx, "British politics" 9.04.1853

Engels used more violent language against them and called for destruction of these nationalities by peoples with greater "vitality" or something like that.

In this way they were imperialistic as they supported subjugation of whole peoples because they didn't share in the culture or political sympathies of their own.

>> No.13374743

>>13374738
He a real nigga

>> No.13374758

>>13374740
"Races" is pretty much just "peoples", "cultures", "groups", etc. You're doing a super ahistorical reading of that shit and projecting post-Eugenics interpretations of the term into it. Akin to seeing someone from the 19th century say gay or queer and assuming they mean homo.

And they definitely didn't call for destruction or subjugation of slavs (which wouldn't even make sense from their point of view - subjugation by whom? The country from which they were exiled and considered enemies of its government?) and I don't think they could perceive them as inherently less progressive since in the last decades of his life Marx had more hopes for a russian revolution than in any other country, and was corresponding with russian revolutionaries all the time. They greatly admired Chernyshevsky for example. So stop talking out of your ass because you know a handful of quotes and nothing of the historical context behind them you nerd.

>> No.13374765

>>13374691
He believed division of labor created the niche for more and more unskilled labor. Jobs became more specialized and required increasingly less learning - this was the trend at the time for the assembly line model. He figured the population overall was becoming less skilled, than back when one good was produced by one artisan from start to finish. As more processes became automatizated and these unskilled tasks were portioned out, there would be more time for humans to dedicate to their creative drives.

But, as we came to realize, the ultimate consequence of automatization was increasing the level of required qualification to be able to work in a modern assembly line. An unspecialized worker, a philosopher or a shepard, would only decrease the productivity of the enterprise by trying to help.

>> No.13374797

>>13374758
>"Races" is pretty much just "peoples", "cultures", "groups", etc.
We use racism to refer to descrimination against cultures and peoples all the time, like slavs, muslims and jews, even when these people aren't phenotypically distinct from us.

You can read "The Magyar Question" and "Democratic Panslavism" by Engels, to learn on his views on the necessity of Slavs, non-historic peoples, to be subjugated by other nations, the historic peoples.

>> No.13374824

>>13373890
>total equality
total meme. something that liberals going all the way back to marx's time memed, with marx himself calling out lassalle for forcing this meme and larping as a socialist.

>> No.13374831

>>13374576
touche

>> No.13374835

Marx would have never allowed someone without a job to speak

>> No.13374839

>>13374797
No you dumbass, we use Racism to refer to the idea that one biological race is superior to others, and to make that reading from the passage you've quoted is hilariously misguided and ahistorical. If Marx wrote somewhere that Brits are dumb or the French are arrogant that doesn't make it "racism". Without the notion of biological racism and the late 19th/early 20th century idea that certain traits could be innate to certain races that neither of them ever subscribed to and that was after that time, that passage is as meaningless as one saying that Americans are incapable of reading or the chinese are incapable of making good products. It's a throwaway generalization about a present state of affairs, not a call to genocide you dummy.

And stop telling me to read shit as if you had read any of those texts. There's nothing worst than a dumb guy who thinks people can't see that he's clueless and grasping at straws. You're probably reading every search result for "race" in both of them right now, desperately trying to find something to quote.

>> No.13374849

Some moron will quote Engels' pre-Communist remarks about the Mexican-American war anytime now.

>> No.13374850

>>13374839
are you in denial about your daddy being a racist or are you just retarded

>> No.13374863

>>13373855
The reason why she posts shit like this is because people like you just sit by idle without ever challenging them on their idiotic ideals.

>> No.13374914

>>13374839
>hout the notion of biological racism and the late 19th/early 20th century idea that certain traits could be innate to certain races that neither of them ever subscribed to and that was after that time
But that was common sense in Marx's time. It was common sense and science to Engels. Lamarckian and Darwinian evolution were already in the minds of intelectuals. They had backwards views, but these concepts were applied to racial hierarchies If anything Marx's takes on environmentally determinated races (as by thought up by the crank Trémaux) were much more unscientific as he theorized the common negro was a degenerated version of a superior ancestor who strayed from good soil. Even Engels mocked him on that, Marx claimed the crank was superceded Darwin. You can read Marx's letters from 18 June 1962 and August 1866 on that.

>call to genocide
Never implied such. They were for the destruction of the nationalities, that is the supression of those cultures and calls for self-determination by smaller nations which, historically, were used to be pushed around by those people who supposedly advanced history and dragged along the non-historic peoples.

>And stop telling me to read shit as if you had read any of those texts.
I have. Some of them were even funny.

>There's nothing worst than a dumb guy who thinks people can't see that he's clueless and grasping at straws.
I feel the same.

>You're probably reading every search result for "race" in both of them right now, desperately trying to find something to quote.
I do that, I have annotations in wordpad to make this easier too. I don't like to induce people into error so I double check sources before posting.

>> No.13374990

>>13374914
>They had backwards views, but these concepts were applied to racial hierarchies If anything Marx's takes on environmentally determinated races (as by thought up by the crank Trémaux) were much more unscientific as he theorized the common negro was a degenerated version of a superior ancestor who strayed from good soil. Even Engels mocked him on that, Marx claimed the crank was superceded Darwin. You can read Marx's letters from 18 June 1962 and August 1866 on that.
You bringing up these ludicrously specific shit is so funny because it makes even more obvious that you're just desperately googling shit and trying to find ANYTHING to cling to, and the best you came up with was "uh this dude said something racist against black people once and Marx kind of liked his ideas in general". Good job there. Also the whole thing was about Marx's alleged racism against slavs and not the "common negro", so your research couldn't even back the argument you've been making so far. Sad!

Speaking of which
>But that was common sense in Marx's time. It was common sense and science to Engels. Lamarckian and Darwinian evolution were already in the minds of intelectuals.
Do some more googling and connect either of those to a school of racist thought directed from Germans towards Slavs and prove Marx's approval of them.

>Never implied such. They were for the destruction of the nationalities, that is the supression of those cultures and calls for self-determination by smaller nations which, historically, were used to be pushed around by those people who supposedly advanced history and dragged along the non-historic peoples.
Then explain Marx's lifelong adherence to the cause of independence to Poland. And just so you know, your reading of what "historic peoples" are is completely off. Learn what something is before you quote it.

>I feel the same.
No you don't, and that's why you're rushing through Google Books and Wikipedia searches with your heart beating fast.

Now go on, back to research.

>> No.13374998 [DELETED] 

>>13373855
why would anyone care what a woman has to say, especially a non-white one?

>> No.13375000

>>13374850
I’m a racist with liberal parents

>> No.13375006 [DELETED] 

>>13375000
same
fuck boomers

>> No.13375025

>>13374914
>>13374990
>Now go on, back to research.
Nevermind that actually, I'm going to bed now. Just say anything and enjoy seeing it go unchallenged, save yourself any unnecessary work

>> No.13376146

>>13375025
Welcome back.

>>13374990
>the whole thing was about Marx's alleged racism against slavs and not the "common negro", so your research couldn't even back the argument you've been making so far. Sad!
Wasn't making the case for his racism against slavs in particular in that case, but for his pseudoscientific racism in particular and for victorian era's notions of race being tied to biology in general. "Kind of liked" is selling short, he is rather effusive in praise.

You ignore the rebutal to:
Without the notion of biological racism and the late 19th/early 20th century idea that certain traits could be innate to certain races that neither of them ever subscribed to and that was after that time,
For which there is plenty of evidence against. Marx refers to Darwin in public works and refers to Trémaux in private. Just the fact that he lived through victorian era phrenology and other racial categorizations should be clear enough that biological racism was a thing already established.

>Then explain Marx's lifelong adherence to the cause of independence to Poland.
If you had read the sources I provided, you'd know Engels refers to Poland has one such historic nation and sets it apart, together with the Magyars and Hungarians and maybe some other west slavs I don't recall now, from non-historic peoples, the slavs whose subjugation he calls for.

I suspect you are trying not to find reasons to read texts (these aren't even long and they are not dry reading) that might hurt your image of authors you respect. You should ask yourself what is more important to you: believing these authors of understanding them.

>No you don't
Yes, I do. You have a very vivid imagination, but this habit of charging at windmills will hurt your chances of making real connections with people. I can't prove I've studied the issues, since you keep shutting down my points with low effort by attacking a made-up image of me and by making unsubstantiated claims while I try to provide you with sources for my own. So you have me at a disavantage, if your goal is to beat your chest and make me feel like it's not worth fighting.

The apelike imagery in the last sentence meshes well with the topic of Darwin, maybe that is why it came to mind.

>> No.13376172

>>13373855
Marxism, like Communism, doesn't exist.
There is no consistent thing that "Marxists" and "Communists" can point to that actually would coherently define them.
Whatever Marx's ideas were or weren't, there is no meaningful representation of his ideas among "Marxists".
Marxism is just a brand, that people associate themselves with, not because of its contents, but because of its value as a brand.

>> No.13376194

>>13374576
chinese aren't communists, chinese are termites who obey whoever has the mandate of heaven

>> No.13376222

>>13373855
This is the same girl that tweets stuff like ”white genocide couldn’t come any sooner” and then only get in relationships with white guys...

>> No.13376235

>>13374504
It's a funny world. I need a wank

>> No.13376236

>>13373855
None of stuff corresponds whatsoever to the conventional notions of communism, Marx would've been rolling in his grave at the thought of idpol and dividing us all into any other category of identity than "class". She just pulled that definition straight out of her ass. It's fine if these are the things you want to see in society, just don't call it "communism" if you don't understand why incorporating identity politics into Marxism won't work.

>> No.13376246

>>13374576
Well, what is a Communist?
Chinese university students are forbidden from holding study groups on Marx.

>> No.13376269

>communism
>reparations to colonized nations
>sacrifice on the parts of whites and men
>biwoc
lol

>> No.13376275

>communists getting run out of their ideology by SJWs
Lol...

>> No.13376279

>biwoc

Wtf? Why is there more and more of these everyday haha

>> No.13376398

>>13374850
I think they're upset about slavs being one of the most persecuted peoples even if we don't go on about it much.

>> No.13376415

>>13373855
Im not american. Do people of color unironically hold these "reparations, white men evil" positions? How do you end up following such a retarded ideology? Its hard to tell sometimes whether these people are satirical or not and I dont understand what amount of brainwashing one has to be exposed to, to hold these positions.

>> No.13376430

Wrong. Read Marx

>> No.13376439

>>13373855
>communism is a movement
2nd line in and she already reveals her stupidity
bravo, BRAVO

>> No.13376485

>>13373855
I hope it's bait. Don't worry, nobody read Marx.

>> No.13376490

Things is MUH REAL marxists wont even shoot this down and likely will probably agree with her irl to not be "Racist" Marxism is a dead in the water ideology

>> No.13376501

>>13376490
marxists don't give a shit about random twitter garbage

>> No.13376515

>>13376501
Same shit happend at occupy lmao

>> No.13376518

>>13376501
The only Marxists existing today are exactly the people who only care about superficial twitter nonsense.

>> No.13376570

>>13376515
what does occupy have to do with marxism? it was full of middle class student cucks

>>13376518
if all you know is twitter and reddit then sure

>> No.13376648

>>13376515
Marxists hate Amerilards with passion

>> No.13376666

>>13373855
No

>> No.13376690

This person is probably a retarded maoist

>> No.13376761

>>13373860
a bi Woman of Colour

>> No.13376910

>>13376415
>Do people of color unironically hold these "reparations, white men evil" positions?
Yes.
>How do you end up following such a retarded ideology?
American leftism is driven by guilt over slavery and a feeling of "failing to live up to Our Values". So they encourage this behavior because it makes them feel good. They especially fantasize about other white people being punished for perceived moral transgressions towards sacral minorities.

>> No.13376931

>>13376910
Even when you see stuff like "Globohomo" coming out of the US you have to understand that the underlying logic has slavery/segregation at the heart of it: if you don't support gay marriage you're basically using the same logic that would justify segregation and that's evil, muh Equal Protection Clause.

>> No.13377010

>>13373860
>>13373863
>>13373890
>>13373955
>>13373990
>>13373993
>>13374044
>>13374047
>>13374056
>>13374057
>>13374326
>>13374336
>>13374357
>>13374480
>>13374504
>>13374521
>>13374538
>>13374550
>>13374555
>>13374569
>>13374576
>>13374585
>>13374599
>>13374679
>>13374691
>>13374722
>>13374738
>>13374740
>>13374743
>>13374758
>>13374765
>>13374797
>>13374824
>>13374831
>>13374835
>>13374839
>>13374849
>>13374850
>>13374863
>>13374914
>>13374990
>>13374998
>>13375000
>>13375006
>>13375025
>>13376146
>>13376172
>>13376194
>>13376222
>>13376235
>>13376236
>>13376246
>>13376269
>>13376275
>>13376279
>>13376398
>>13376415
>>13376430
>>13376439
>>13376485
>>13376490
>>13376501
>>13376515
>>13376518
>>13376570
>>13376648
>>13376666
>>13376690
>>13376761
>>13376910
>>13376931
Wrong. Read Marx.

>> No.13377035

>>13377010
still furious, still seething

>> No.13377058

>>13377035
Oooh wweetie, read Marx, okay?

>> No.13377065
File: 58 KB, 205x145, 1553730672296.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13377065

>>13377010
t.

>> No.13377092
File: 257 KB, 900x600, Biwoc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13377092

All hail Biwoc, the mighty god of Communism.

Biwoc will protect us from evil.

>> No.13377119

>>13377065
Also wrong. Read Marx.

>> No.13377148

>>13377092
kek. reminded me of
>mumbo jumbo, god of the Congo

>> No.13377182

>>13377010
>Wrong. Read Marx.
Marx isn't even tangentially related to Marxism in reality.

>> No.13377216

>>13377182
Wrong. You know what to do. (read Marx)

>> No.13377224

>>13374835
So Marx?

>> No.13377392

>>13377182
He unironically said himself that he wasn't Marxist.
Honestly, why are you guys always talking about Marx on the internet, why hasn't he disappeared in 2019?

I wonder...

>> No.13377628

>>13377392
>He unironically said himself that he wasn't Marxist.
do you just read like the last half of every quote you come across

>> No.13377638

>>13374576
I presume those authentic Chinese communists aren’t the ones fleeing to capitalist imperialist countries to do a bunch of drugs, fuck white men, and whine about the white man with their faggy college buddies.

>> No.13377646

>>13377010
If Marx lived today he'd tell you to read twitter

>> No.13377662

>>13377392
>Honestly, why are you guys always talking about Marx on the internet, why hasn't he disappeared in 2019?
Because people keep saying they are Marxists.

>> No.13377663

>>13377646
If Marie Antoinette were alive today she'd tell them to get a deliveroo.

>> No.13377666

>>13377662
>>13377392
Also Marxian economics. Also he was right about capitalism.

>> No.13377667

>>13373855
No. It's idpol.

>> No.13377687

>>13373890
wrong men would have to particularly sacrifice because of their privileged position in society as seen by the standard hierarhies (beause obviously you can deconstruct this notion of "men are privileged" and find many ways in which men are not privileged by giving some extention and push to the word :p)

>> No.13377691

>>13373855
lol, to think that some rich german guy would care for minorities

>> No.13377701

>>13377667
all politics are identity politics.

>> No.13377703

>>13373890
seems about right

>> No.13377734

>>13377701
t. coochie eater with chinese character

>> No.13378035

Wrong. Democratic centralism not following petit bourgeois idealisms like biwoc. Inb4 brocialism- actually read, this one of the most basic political aspects you fucking jewtube cucked twitter fuckhead.

>> No.13378043

>minority using leftism for their own personal gain

Woah

>> No.13378300

>>13373855
Is "Read Marx" the new "Have Sex"?

>> No.13378308

>>13377010
based

have sex

>> No.13378336
File: 204 KB, 708x936, 1540041301748.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13378336

me on the right

>> No.13378514
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13378514

>>13373955
>>13374044
>>13374555
>>13374599
>>13374722
>>13375000
>>13376222
>>13377666
>>13378300

>> No.13379642

>>13378336
Isn't the left type more suited to Bakunin style Anarchism?

I'm new to this whole communism thing

>> No.13379830

>>13378514
indeed a magnificent thread

>> No.13379838

>>13373855
It's called the dictatorship of the proletariat, not the dictatorship of "poor biwoc"

>> No.13379987
File: 120 KB, 858x550, Snapchat-1223280253.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13379987

"no"

>> No.13380044

>>13377010
fucking ban batch replies holy shit

>> No.13380050
File: 958 KB, 1280x1459, tumblr_o4kmw6bR7n1u5vzw4o1_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13380050

>>13373855
Speaking as a leftie of sorts, do these types have ANYTHING of value to offer?
I have a transexual friend and everytime he comes to talk to me about SJW shit I have a hard time dealing with his stupidity and cristalized ideology.
But then again, he could be just stupid and unable to do justice to the cause, you know?

>> No.13380063

>>13373855
i don't remember marx ever even tangentially insinuating anything about colonialism?
>hurr durr but imperialism IS THE SAME as capitalism

>> No.13380064

>>13373855
Fuck it, I'm moving to Singapore

>> No.13380505

>>13380044
Resentful little incel. Read Marx

>> No.13381655

>>13380505
>hates incels
>likes marx
???

>> No.13381668

>>13373855
Probably would have been shot in the Soviet Union.

>> No.13382146

>>13374504
If only these /pol/tards would realise that communism is literally what they should wish for.

>> No.13382880

>>13376761
>Woman
Fucking cis-scum, I knew it.

>> No.13382883

>>13381668
Debatable. The Soviets liked identity politics. Actual left movements like Anarchist Catalonia, unlikely to have survived.

>> No.13382950

>>13377392
>witticism designed to trigger French retards
>Therefore, Marx wasn't a Marxist
This has to be bait

>> No.13382960

>>13382883
>actual leftism is when it lasts for 6 months and fails utterly everything else is red fascism

>> No.13383007

>>13373855
Marx wanted that the laborers should control the means of production. Lazy scroungers, coloured capitalists and intersectional fanatics gets the bullet.