[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 11 KB, 225x225, images(5).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13359015 No.13359015[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

I have yet to be presented with a good argument against anti-natalism.

>> No.13359030

>>13359015
There are none. That's the whole point. All people who are against it do it out of cognitive dissonace.

>> No.13359071

>>13359015
Because being alive for a man is nonsensical, we are doomed to desire and live in ignorance and misery.
The only reason I go on living is because I love my family more than I hate life as a whole.

>> No.13359085

>>13359015
Everything is not refutable if you just believe enough

>> No.13359109
File: 76 KB, 1200x675, zeke.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13359109

there are none. stop having children.

>> No.13359141

antinatalism is CIA shit kek how could you let yourself fall for a literal psyop?

>> No.13359152

Easy: if life is all suffering and you regret being born why don't you just kill yourself?

>> No.13359194

>>13359152
I need to convince as many people as possible to not have children.

>> No.13359255

>>13359015
I deny the premise that there is more suffering than good in life

>> No.13359271

Basically the ideal would be if every human stopped having sex, stopped having children and stopped fapping altogether but that's obviously not gonna happen since most of humanity is hyper sex obsessed cumbrains.

>> No.13359273

Antinatalism is the most brainlet philosophy, 'I'm depressed so people should stop having kids', literally angsty 14-year-old tier.

>> No.13359281
File: 59 KB, 588x823, 1561428305991.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13359281

>>13359194
Then why don't you buy a gun and kill as many people as possible to end their suffering?

>> No.13359282

It's the pussy option. At least go full edge and argue that everyone has to immediately die.

>> No.13359298

you've been dead for billions of years before you were born, and you'll be dead for trillions afterwords so why take away the 80 or so that you get to experience all the crazy stuff that comes from being alive?

>> No.13359301
File: 8 KB, 220x272, Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz,_Bernhard_Christoph_Francke.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13359301

>life has too much suffering

>> No.13359319

>>13359015
>um dear, will you please empty out your piss bott-
>I DIDN'T ASK TO BE BORN MOM!
Grow up already.

>> No.13359409

>>13359015
Blasting off inside a lady is great, abortions are a bummer

>> No.13359646

>>13359015
Anti-natalism is wrong because it assumes all pain and suffering is inherently bad, and it is a derivative of utilitarianism which is another brainlet take.

>> No.13359817

Its unrealistic

>> No.13360040

>>13359282
Checkmate

>> No.13360070
File: 254 KB, 785x1000, soycryextreme.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360070

>>13359015
you are a loser, every anti natalist.

prove the average person has more suffering than pleasure

inb4 >no everyone who is happy is brainwashed im not a loser im not im not im not

>> No.13360082

>>13359152
>>13359281

Because mass murder just causes more suffering to those killed and injured and to their friends and families. Never having been born in the first place is not comparable to murder because the former causes 0 suffering.

Same why I don't commit suicide. It's a shame I was born in the first place, but killing myself will just makes things worse for myself and my family. I should still do the best I can while alive. This line of thought is not incoherent nor is it contradictory.

>> No.13360126

>>13360082
>I should still do the best I can while alive.

whats the point if all life is suffering, if I met you in real life I would punch you in the face for being a faggot, I bet you are white and don't have a girlfriend

>> No.13360210

>>13359015
It amounts to whining about suffering which is relative and our reality is really not that bad considering the freedom of thought.

>> No.13360214
File: 3 KB, 182x277, 1552522376837.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360214

>>13359015

>> No.13360325

>>13359015
have sex

>> No.13360469

>>13360126
Suffering is inevitable but you can mitigate it somewhat by spreading antinatalist ideas. I, an antinatalist, have far more compassion than you.

>> No.13360475

>>13360469
My life is good though, I don't need your compassion. Your philosopohy only works by assuming everyone who is clearly happy is secretely sad and they just don't know it

>> No.13360477

>>13359015
Non-whites will never accept this. Too dull and animalistic.

>> No.13360481

>>13360469
I'm not an emotivist and I don't base judgements on feelings.

>> No.13360488

>>13360475
>My life is good
Is it though?

>> No.13360506

>>13360481
Lmao yes you are. You're homo sapian

>> No.13360519

>>13359015
Provide a proof for anti-natalism
Most of life is pleasurable/tolerable anyway
Stop being a bitch

>> No.13360521

>>13360481
>I don't base judgements on feelings.
Emotions are a prerequisite for moral judgements

>> No.13360524

>>13359015
If the argument is that there's more suffering than happiness in being alive - so being born is not a good thing; well life is not about being "happy" all the time and about "not suffering" at all. Maybe I missed something because your thing seems very stupid and childish. Read Tolstoy I don't know

Plus you seem to derive a lot of pleasure from memeing stupid ideologies so there's that

>> No.13360533
File: 121 KB, 800x600, 4EB8CDD9-C51D-47A0-A090-D2FBF3B4AAC6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360533

>>13359030
Pretty much. Just gonna go live in the mountains of a far away country and become a Gnostic.

>> No.13360552

simple, its gay and retarded

>> No.13360556
File: 129 KB, 474x1328, 1553967952311.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360556

>antinatalism? Of course, I support it, as long as it's only applied to inferior races

>> No.13360559

>>13360488
yes

>> No.13360561

>>13360082
>Same why I don't commit suicide. It's a shame I was born in the first place, but killing myself will just makes things worse for myself and my family.
Kill your family and then kill yourself. There. No more suffering

>> No.13360565
File: 39 KB, 599x740, 1561477984752.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360565

>>13360469
Spreading anti natalist ideas leads more people to suffering. Ignorance is a bliss

>> No.13360573

>>13359015
I have yet to see an antinatalist do anything about it. Also considering ending all life won’t be possible without continuing human life, the only life up to the task, we should continue procreating temporarily for antinatalist goals.

>> No.13360593

>>13359015
The entire concept of evolution means you and I have been selected for breedability, and we are thus pre-programmed for it. You can craft any mental edifice you want, you can't suppress your nature of biological creature.

>> No.13360665
File: 83 KB, 961x276, IMG_8980.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360665

>>13360561

>> No.13360688

>>13359015
If you're not a person with any sense of spirituality or the divine, then yes, anti-natalism is flawless. If, however, you do have some sense of that aspect of reality, you're likely to reject the metrics by which anti-natalists define suffering and existence. So, whereas a secular materialist cannot argue with the fact that illness, consciousness, existential pain, and the knowledge of death are all great contributors to something fundamentally bad (that is, suffering), a spiritual or supernaturally-minded person could see the suffering as a gift towards achieving higher understanding and knowledge. The secular materialist responds that higher understanding and knowledge is pointless if we all die in the end...but that assumes a premise that what you do while alive is erased or undone once you die, which is, to the spiritually-minded person, untrue.

If we take goodness and truth as virtuous (which is something I think BOTH types of people can agree on), then anti-natalism is too dismissive of such pursuits.

>> No.13360870

>>13360469
why, aren't you a better shitstain than the average cum in the bucket!

>> No.13360889

>>13359015
That's because we're all super happy to know that you've decided not to reproduce and don't want to convince you otherwise

>> No.13360906

>>13359015
Anti-natalists assume that not being born means not existing. I reject that.

>> No.13360908

>>13360469
Suffering is a component of life. Childbirth brings women suffering, but is necessary. Suffering is necessary becausr it matures you- would you forge a sword without passing it through fire and beating it with a hammer? Anti-natalism is for the weak who feel hopeless and have given up on life. My life isn't perfect, but I'm happy with what I have and want to rise to greatness

>> No.13360916
File: 6 KB, 192x263, prophetmani.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13360916

>>13359015
I'm an antinatalist, but I disagree that nihilistic rhetoric is the best way to justify it. It is precisely because I find life meaningful that I promote antinatalism. Anyways, I consider my mentality closer to Prophet Mani than Ligotti, even though both were antinatalists.

>> No.13360928

>>13360477
I am not White, and I accept antinatalism. The Arab philosopher named Al-Maʿarri and the Persian prophet named Mani were both antinatalist.

>> No.13360971

>>13359015
Something is better than nothing. Even if that something isn't constant cumming bliss. YOURE A PUSSY.

>> No.13360977

>>13359255
this. i am glad that i am alive, even from a purely jedonic perspective

>> No.13360982

>>13360977
*hedonic

>> No.13361002

>>13359015
Why haven't the living anti-natalists killed themselves?

>> No.13361011

Why do you all see anti-natalism as an answer to life's suffering and not as a reaction to productivism and capitalism ?

>> No.13361016

>>13361011
based

>> No.13361018

Leads humanity to evolutionary failure, simple as.

I've always believed that the concept of overpopulation is fruitless due to the fact there will always be those who refuse to mate for biological or sexual reasons.

>> No.13361100

>>13359015
genesis 1:28

>> No.13361112
File: 356 KB, 1920x1200, 1551847358073.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13361112

>> No.13362528

>>13360477
this

>> No.13362602
File: 61 KB, 500x621, [][][][][][][][][][][][]][.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13362602

>>13359152
>>13361002
We have a responsibility to help the world as much as we’re able before we die. Leaving the work for others would be irresponsible.

It’s hard enough just to get people to consider not breeding. Advocating suicide, by any method besides old age, would be a particularly hard sell. There’s no way we could convince enough people to kill themselves to make a difference, especially after we’re too dead to talk. Suicide doesn’t set an example others will follow.

And even if we did increasing death is like trying to bail out a sinking boat without plugging the leak. People are flooding in twice as fast as they’re bailing out.

But it will never work not because of >>13360477
but because of religion.

>> No.13362986

>>13362602
>We have a responsibility
Why? Where does it come from?

>> No.13363028

Kierkegaard refuted antinatalism before it even crystallized as an ideology. Suffering is the mark of divine heterogeneity, the anagogic vehicle to salvation.
>inb4 tell that to kids with bone cancer

>> No.13363049

>>13363028
Everyone itt refuted antinatalism and they didn’t respond. Antinatalism is like the butterfly of ideaologies, just an idiot getting (you)s by being stupid.

>> No.13363207

Why would you deny someone a chance at happiness simply because it also contains suffering? Anti-natalism is wrong because it ignores that life does not entirely consist of suffering; it is a two-sided coin.

>> No.13363450

>>13362986
It comes since our birth.

>> No.13363470

>>13363207
> it is a two-sided coin.
Thats the problem.
You have to flip it.
Is it ethcial to gamble with somones life?
Your kid may be happy, but ending up miserable is also likely.
Head or tails? :)

>> No.13363948

>>13363470
more likely to be happy then sad if you aren't a faggotty shit parent though

>> No.13363962

>>13359015
Anti-natalism as a premise is incomplete.

>> No.13363967
File: 430 KB, 800x500, maistre.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13363967

Humanity has to end sometime, I think it's about time we close up shop. Been going down hill way to long, even if we were redeemed the skeletons in the closet would be unbearable.

>> No.13364025

>>13360477
India has a huge anti-natalist movement actually. It is much more popular over there than in any white country.

>> No.13364053

>>13363967
This. We should carpet bomb africa since most of the human population lives there and they multiply the fastest. Also they are too retarded to ever stop breeding so we should help them. Great plan anon!

>> No.13364145

This thread just proves OP's point

>> No.13364282

>>13359015
God told you to multiply (DCT)
Raising a family gives you pleasure (Epicureanism/Egoist)
The average pleasure of offspring is positive (Utilitarian)
More offspring means more smart people to make life live-able and make not-shitty ethic systems (intellectualism/totalist)
You are born to fuck and your genes must take over the world(biological imperative)
You reincarnate into your offspring/you need children to help your old leaky ass (continued existence)
>inb4 you're nihilist
kys

>> No.13364336

>>13359015
I enjoy life so the whole 'so dark xd' pessimism feels a bit moot.
More important I'm not hedonistic so the negative utilitarian argument is invalid to me and can't counteract the esthetic consideration of life to make being born a net negative.

>> No.13364350

>>13359015
Anti natalism is extremely short sighted and strangely emotional. Muh suffering without any eschatology.
The based argument is to live a few generations more before handing over the universe to true AI creatures and preparing for rapture.

>> No.13364362

>>13364025
Indians are honorary whites.

>caucasian
>had steel first
>culturally dominated asia

>> No.13364373

>>13364350
Why does humanity have to "pass on the torch" to AI? Seems like lukewarm, they we aren't really willing to go and want our spirit to live on though our creation. Just let humanity die, our best years are long behind us, and our continued existence spits on the memory.

>> No.13364385

>>13364373
Why does humanity dying solve the problem of suffering? How selfish can you be to let the animals go on existing, they will never have antinatalists.

>> No.13364390

>>13364385
>Why does humanity dying solve the problem of suffering?
I'm not trying to solve the problem of suffering, i'm trying to stop the desecration of humanities corpse, in much the same way i wouldn't like some media franchise I enjoy getting milked for dozens of shitty sequels and spinoffs.

>> No.13364394

>>13364390
Is that what antinatalists believe? Aren’t you more of a cancel after season 7ist?

>> No.13364403

The theory is correct. The err is praxis. Antinatalists should actually have as much children as possible and indoctrinate all of them into antinatalism. Most don't have much influence on the thoughts of most, but they do over their kids. Therefore mass child rearing should be the collective goal of the movement. If you can, get antinatalist churches going where you socialize them into thinking it's normal.

>> No.13364404
File: 91 KB, 568x544, 1541688359218(2).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13364404

>>13359015
Plenty of people like their lives and are grateful to have them.

>> No.13364822

>>13364282
>The average pleasure of offspring is positive
Are you sure about that ?
>Raising a family gives you pleasure
Are you sure about that ?
>More offspring means more smart people to make life live-able and make not-shitty ethic systems
Are you sure about that ?

>> No.13364829

>society during good times
>life is worth living

>society during bad times
>life is not worth living

woah

>> No.13364830

>>13360971
>Something is better than nothing.
That's just your opinion.

>> No.13365492

>>13359273
if you didn't exist you wouldn't commit sins

>> No.13365612

>>13364829
>muh cycles
brainlet

>> No.13365613

what i take from antinatalism is that parents have a responsibility for their kids. probably a bigger responsibility than what is on average practiced right now. i think whether or not life is suffering depends on the person. i cant tell if if its suffering for everyone. if you think it isnt and have a child thats fine by me. but if you dont make sure that life isnt suffering for them then your selfish act of creating life without consent is a moral wrong. if you have nothing to offer dont have children. abort. a person you created has no obligation towards you either.

>> No.13365692

>>13365612
>thinks history isn't cyclical
Dream up some more.

>> No.13365719

>>13359015
-Life is on the weighted average good (especially for 99% of westerners), having children increases the happiness on average.
-Suffering isn't bad and people willingly suffer. In fact suffering is a valuable part of life.

Oh WOW, two self-evident truths and the whole thing crumbles.

>> No.13365845

>>13365613
good take

>> No.13365927

>>13365719
>Life is on the weighted average good (especially for 99% of westerners), having children increases the happiness on average.
Have you actually taken a look at the state of things ?
>Suffering isn't bad
Yes it is. Have you ever suffered greatly ?
>people willingly suffer
Yeah we call them masochists. They are mentally ill.

>> No.13366442

>>13359015
Is it anti-natalism if no one wants to fuck you?

>> No.13366571

If you are arguing from the POV that human suffering is a mistake/an inherent evil, have you ever considered that raising children could be instrumental to the ultimate destruction of humanity? Antinatalism seems to imply free will in that it argues that one should not bring more suffering into the world (as if that is up to oneself). There was a time when I believed such things, but in my case I found at the bottom it was simply impotent moralization. The question of whether to have kids or not cannot be rested on abstract morality so that you can sit there with your cute little antinatalist identity. If you are serious about antinatalism, become a terrorist you coward.

>> No.13366694

Name a single anti-natalist who isn't a virgin loser.

>> No.13366786

>>13366694
Hate to break this to you, but I'm coming to your house and I'm going to cum in every soap/shampoo bottle you have and you literally cannot stop me.

>> No.13366853

Antinatalism the where utilitarianism leads. But utilitarianism has no foundation.

>> No.13366921

>>13363028
Explain differently/explicate? Very interested in Kierkegaard

>> No.13367396

>>13359015
Life precedes reason.

>> No.13367451

>>13365927
>Have you actually taken a look at the state of things ?
Yes. I live, for Western standards, in an absolute shithole, but it's still quite alright.

>Yes it is. Have you ever suffered greatly ?
Vaccines are bad, have you ever had 1000 times the concentration of a normal rabies vaccine?
You are, in fact, retarded. Just because something is bad in a high Dosis doesn't make it bad.

>Yeah we call them masochists.
Every person who visits the gym, does any form of sport or ANY other activity that doesn't require his continued existence shooses suffering.
It's suffering to get a degree, it's suffering to work instead of be a NEET, it's suffering to go outside when you could stay in your bed.
If literally EVERY person in the world is a masochist, no one is.

And YOU are an enormous hypocrite because you are still choosing suffering over comfort (even posting on 4chan is suffering), still perpetuating the lie that suffering is generally bad.

>> No.13368901

It would be morally permissible to wipe out all life on earth if you could do it close enough to being instantaneous such that no suffering resulted.

>> No.13369096

>>13359015
Life is cool and fun. Depending on how old you are, your kids might be able to take care of you long enough for you to be able to be turned into a cock diesel cyborg and then the fun can continue except even better than before.

>> No.13369101

I have yet to be presented with a good argument for anti-natalism.

>> No.13369579

>>13369096
>Life is cool and fun.
I'm still waiting for this to happen to me.

>> No.13369644

>>13359319
Not an argument.

>> No.13369663

>>13369644
empty your piss bottle
>>13364822
>are you sure about that?
I have power over these things, so I can make "sure about that".

>> No.13369682

>>13369663
Nice ad hominem.

>> No.13369815

>>13369682
Anon, I'm not making an argument to you, and I'm different from the initial piss bottle anon. I'm taking the piss away from you because you were pissed off enough to epistle, "Not an argument." to an obvious pisspost. Empty your piss bottle okay?

>> No.13370058

>>13359015
have sex

>> No.13370103

>>13359015
Thats because people who make good arguments dont bother debating anti-natalists :)

>> No.13370194

Having children is the real philosophical suicide.

>> No.13370208

Anti natalist should be huge in adoption. There should be a stronger link between adoption and anti natalism

>> No.13370236

>>13370103
What are they doing instead?

>> No.13370493

People who are for anti-natalism, probably are of higher intelligence.
This means people of lower intelligence will never be anti-natalists.
This means the world will lose the intelligent Children your selfishness starved it of, and you doom the world into having more suffering than the world with your more intelligent potentially minor 'philosopher king' children (guardians of the suffering masses).
TL;Dr: If you are improving the world, to stop this improvement by not passing on improver genes—is to increase suffering in the world.

>> No.13370511

>>13370493
Anti natalism, is an utilitarian argument that fails if you use actual utilitarian logic.
It only seems to care for the implief suffering your children might experience vs certain suffering the world will experience through the absence of your children (you caring about suffering could raise children who decrease more suffering than their existence experience).

>> No.13370522

>>13370236
Having sex

>> No.13370643

>>13370493
>dumber people suffer more

>> No.13370655

>>13359015
When you are a walking argument against natalism it makes sense that you would remain unconvinced.

>> No.13370672

>>13370493
False, smart people might be born from imbeciles. Its rare but it can happen.

>> No.13370816

>>13359152
This is literally, unironically and undoubtedly not an argument.

>> No.13370827

>>13360082
>Never having been born in the first place is not comparable to murder because the former causes 0 suffering.
what if raising you alleviated your parents' suffering by giving them a sense of purpose

>> No.13370835

>>13359015
People are going to have children regardless of your personal views.
Each person can potentially improve the world and alleviate suffering of others.
You (as someone who recognizes the negative aspects of life rather than denying them) are probably in a better position to use your life positively to help others.
Your potential children could be raised with this mindset and further contribute to making the world better, whereas the children of people who refuse to admit the negative aspects of life are less likely to embody your realizations.

>> No.13371421

>>13360561
>Kill all your family before yourself
>All your family's friends grieve
>Guess I have to kill all them
>All their friends grieve
See the problem here? It's that you don't understand what it's like to have friends so you can't grasp the concept of anybody caring unless it's biologically forced by blood relation. Go outside.

>> No.13371456

>>13359015
The pope told me Albigensians are heretics.

>> No.13371667

>>13359015
>kiddies are cute
pretty self-evident