/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13307525]

is there anything more >brainlet than blaming the jews?

[Anonymous No.13307537]

>not realizing the Jews are one of closest genetic groups to the ancient Greeks

[Anonymous No.13307555]

>Blaming the men

[Anonymous No.13307593]

>>13307525
Blaming 'white people'.

[Anonymous No.13307595]

>>13307525
>blaming

[Anonymous No.13307601]

>>13307525
Not blaming the jew

[Anonymous No.13307604]

>>13307601
why can't poltards just stay in pol? no one likes you or takes you imbeciles seriously

[Anonymous No.13307608]

>>13307604
Because I don't want to.

[Anonymous No.13307609]

>>13307604
>he's still assblasted about getting destroyed in the film thread yesterday
keep seething chaim

[Anonymous No.13307612]

>>13307609
>destroyed in the film thread yesterday
Got a link?

[Anonymous No.13307617]

>>13307612

>>13301725

[Anonymous No.13307623]

Blaming "the jews" as a whole race is unequivocally retarded. But not realising the people doing the most harm to the world are Jewish is also ignorant.

[Anonymous No.13307687]

>>13307525

Shit rabi what are you doing ?

[Anonymous No.13307705]

>>13307525
Mods?
How is this /lit/?

[Anonymous No.13307762]

>>13307623
>Blaming jews is retarded
>But not blaming jews is ignorant

[Anonymous No.13307770]

>>13307608
Your argumentation skills parallel that of a seven year old.

[Anonymous No.13307777]

>>13307762
So it is clear that you aren't able to see his point.

I also think even his position is untenable but at least it's more intelligent than yours :3

[Anonymous No.13307782]

>>13307770
That was a pretty funny reply, but I wasn't making an argument

[Anonymous No.13307786]

these days I've learned it is better to not waste my breath arguing with certain people about certain subjects, or getting pissed off about idiots being idiots. every time I come to a place full of idiots, and find myself saying to myself "jesus christ, what fucking idiots!" I am always forgetting that I knew it was full of fucking idiots, but then I still chose to come and speak about certain topics that I knew agitated certain idiots. there are some good people, too. take the good, leave the rest. some shit is not worth it. what percentage of the shit people talk about or do online is a complete waste of time, or worse?

[Anonymous No.13307788]

>>13307777
I get his point, it's just retarded

[Anonymous No.13307797]

>>13307525
Yes, making this thread. But that is definitely the runner up.

[Anonymous No.13307801]

most people on the internet you will have trouble convincing of anything that they don't already want to believe. however, some people will listen. it's a waste of your energy lamenting the people that won't. your energy is always best spent on the people that would already be most predisposed to receive maximum benefit from whatever higher perspective you may offer them. on the other hand, certain people will never change their mind about certain subjects, and you can waste a whole HELL of a lot of sweat worrying about them.

[Anonymous No.13307830]

>>13307525
who would you blame?

[Anonymous No.13307856]

>>13307830
You don't need to blame someone in order to work on resolving issues.

[Anonymous No.13307860]

>>13307830
not the OP but literally everyone is only responsible for themselves. just as well as there might factually be any host of secretive elements on our planet, systems of thought, belief and administration only operate with our consent, the aggregate consent of every individual, and the decision of each individual to not literally do everything within their power to make things better in the world for everyone, including themselves. for one individual to make a huge difference is an idea which scares most people, but each individual is still supremely responsible for himself and the world, and supreme dedication is exactly what each individual who feels something is going wrong in the world is called to take part in. to sit on your proverbial ideological intellectual spiritual ass every day jerking off and to blame some disparate element for all the ills of the world because of some unverifiable shit you read on the internet is Extremely mother fucking retarded. Despicably so. Yet, things of this nature are commonplace. Weaknesses of the mind. Strength in self helps beget strength in others. Become a better example anons.

[Anonymous No.13307886]

>>13307856
>>13307860
that was a joke

[Anonymous No.13307902]

>>13307525
Not blaming the Jews?

[Anonymous No.13307911]

>>13307525
yes, being subservient goyim to the illegitimate state of Israel

[Anonymous No.13307917]

Anti-Semitism is a Jewish psy-op.

[Anonymous No.13307920]

>>13307860
>literally everyone is only responsible for themselves. just as well as there might factually be any host of secretive elements on our planet, systems of thought, belief and administration only operate with our consent,
Bruh look at this dude

[Anonymous No.13307957]

>>13307920
it's true. are you literally doing everything within your power to modify structures of oppression? if not, those structures operate with your consent, whether they are in the open or secretive

[Anonymous No.13307968]

Nobody can claim to understand the world's history without a good grasp of the Jewish question.

[Anonymous No.13307974]

>>13307968
The number of times Jews have been kicked out of societies is equal to the number of times societies failed to live up to their own expectations.

[Anonymous No.13307986]

>>13307525
Yeah everything else

[Anonymous No.13307987]

>>13307974
always the victim, it's never your fault

[Anonymous No.13307991]

>>13307525
Depends what you're blaming them for, obviously. Sure NAXALT always applies, but so does overrepresentation.

For example, I can see why many burgers and others on the receiving end of burgerland's policies would be concerned about the influence exerted by AIPAC, ADL, SPLC, Hollywood, CNN, and on and on...

[Anonymous No.13307996]

>>13307593
White people are all racist as fuck though, certainly in America. We can argue the toss about whether that's a bad thing or not, but why pretend it isn't the case?

[Anonymous No.13308000]

>>13307987
>your
I'm not Jewish, and I was getting at the opposite. No one is at fault. It's more like a natural cycle that everyone is a part of.

A society starts strong, and in its strength, invites the wandering Jew in, as it is capable of seeing how their wandering spirit can be beneficial to the growth of the society. The society grows and grows, but then collapses once it can no longer sustain its own weight. At that point, the society starts looking for something to blame, and naturally, it will blame the wandering Jew since he wasn't there before. This situation happens ad infinitum, like the necessary molting process of societies.

[Anonymous No.13308025]

>>13307705
Here you go fren, thread is /lit/ now. Free book!

https://archive.org/details/UnderstandingJewishInfluence_355

[Anonymous No.13308041]

>>13307996
Whites are the least racist, which is why they're being invaded and overrun. The 'browning of the west' wouldn't exist if whites were still as ethnocentric as everyone else.

[Anonymous No.13308067]

>>13308041
>Whites are the least racist
Irrelevant. They are still racist and unpleasant to be around for everyone else, which is why people complain about them.

[Anonymous No.13308078]

There really is a special group of nationalist zionist that operate mafia style in order to secure their homeland by using america. It is that simple. The average jew hate is the same as any demographic hate, sometimes you hate people who act in group mentality

[Anonymous No.13308080]

>>13308067
Your inferiority complex is showing.

[Anonymous No.13308085]

>>13308067

[Anonymous No.13308097]

>>13307525
Nothing is more brainlet than blame, period.

[Anonymous No.13308098]

>>13307788
Perception issue. You see the world through the eyes of a downy which makes sound logic appear retarded.

[Anonymous No.13308116]

>>13308080
>>13308085
>stop telling me things which hurt my feelings
Would you rather a conspiracy of silence? Everyone complains about the retarded shit black people do, why can't everyone complain about the retarded shit white people do?

[Anonymous No.13308118]

>>13307996
No. White countries are actually the least racist on the planet. Whites are just held to a higher standard than everyone else for some reason.

[Anonymous No.13308127]

>>13308118
>White countries are actually the least racist on the planet.
Why should I care about that?

[Anonymous No.13308129]

>>13308067
Racist compared to where exactly? The imagined utopia that only exists in your imagination? It doesn't make any fucking sense to single whites out when they are actually the LEAST racist societies on the planet. Have you ever considered that people are mean to you because you're a retarded faggot, not because they're prejudiced?

[Anonymous No.13308138]

>>13307788
Ah, but you might be speaking from a group/class interest. If you actually do this, that invalidates your logic entirely.

:3

[Anonymous No.13308141]

>>13308129
>It doesn't make any fucking sense to single whites out
Why not? They are still unpleasant to be around for other people. Sorry if this triggers you

[Anonymous No.13308143]

investing into wall street as opposed to investing into cryptocurrency is SO FUCKING DUMB

[Anonymous No.13308148]

>>13308118
this is true. the more non-racist the west gets the more the media likes to amp up the racism talk. people who havent traveled to foreign countries on their own have no idea how racist any culture can be

[Anonymous No.13308151]

>>13307525
Reminder that Ayn Rand js based and bankers literally did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous No.13308153]

>>13308138
Pardon? What does that mean?

[Anonymous No.13308154]

>>13308127
Because when you say 'white people are racist' the implication is '...racist compared to other ethnicities', when the evidence suggests the opposite is true. You really are an imbecile.

[Anonymous No.13308165]

>>13308141
What triggers me is how stupid you are. If whites being racist is unpleasant then you can multiply that for how unpleasant racism in non white societies is. It's not like it's a competition anyway for fucks sake. This is such a stupid argument.

[Anonymous No.13308168]

>>13308154
>'...racist compared to other ethnicities'
Again, irrelevent. I think the imbecile might be you. The proposal is 'white people are racist'. This is true, it's undeniable. I don't really care about whether some bushmen in Namibia are racist, that's a separate issue. Why does it upset you to have it pointed out?

[Anonymous No.13308172]

>>13308153
That if you form your statement in any way shape or form, based on some sort of collective or party interest, then it is automatically intellectually invalidated.

This is why newspaper op-eds have no intellectual value whatsoever. :3

[Anonymous No.13308175]

>>13308098
You don't need to perceive the world in a special way to realize it was retarded

[Anonymous No.13308178]

>>13308165
>It's not like it's a competition anyway for fucks sake
Well spotted. That's why it really doesn't matter what any other group is like, we are discussing white people and how they are racist. This is not very complicated, stop being so fragile

[Anonymous No.13308184]

>>13308172
I didn't form my saying around collective interests. I was just mocking the statement

[Anonymous No.13308195]

>>13308168
It doesn't upset me. I understand what you are saying. It frustrates me that you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. It doesn't matter though.

[Anonymous No.13308200]

>>13308184
Alright, alright. I'll take your word for it, just making sure. ;)

That is one of those things it is hard to get away from. His statement was less invalid than the preceding.

For instance, to say that the media has a majority of Jewish interests is not a false statement. To ascribe to them an 'evil' position though, is somewhat false I'm sure most would agree. Some are evil, some aren't. The way the wealth game has worked has gone predominantly in their favor, but as Veblen has pointed out the leisure class still consists of those dolicho-blonde races as well.

Just understand that since we live in a post-WWII society many of the leading positions, especially in the financial industry, are held by Jews. These Jews may be usurious, they may not, one would hope their religion would guide them aright. But recognizing who predominantly holds the money, recognizing the identity of the people in charge/control, is there anything wrong with that?

No, of course not. :3

[Anonymous No.13308203]

>>13307525
How much did the rabbi pay you to write this?

[Anonymous No.13308209]

>>13308178
I think what you are talking about is how you have experienced racism from white people, and you are trying to project that as a general rule. I can tell you from experience that South Asians are WAY less accomodating of blacks, and there's way more of them. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.13308212]

>>13307974
The jew cries out in pain as he strikes you

[Anonymous No.13308218]

>>13307996
Can you imagine the Chinese or Japanese letting in literally millions of subsaharan Africans into their countries willingly?

[Anonymous No.13308219]

>>13308195
>>13308209
>you don't seem to understand what I'm saying
I do, it's just what you are saying is irrelevant, and not very clever. You are like the person who, when the issue of police brutality is raised, goes HURR DURR MUH BLACK ON BLACK CRIME

[Anonymous No.13308221]

>>13308143
Crypto is the cuck's alternative to gold

[Anonymous No.13308223]

>>13307525
Yes: not blaming the Jews...

[Anonymous No.13308237]

>>13307762
Quick, shut it down! The cattle are waking up!

[Anonymous No.13308241]

>>13308219
No it isn't. I don't care about any of that. I'm not even American. You are the one pointing to a single ethnic group and saying that they express a behaviour which is common to ALL groups. Of course whites are racist. But why even point it out? So are blacks and so are chinese. It's stupid and pointless, like this argument.

[Anonymous No.13308260]

>>13308223
Please note: see

>>13308200


Do you see how I am impartially not taking a party interest on either side of the issue?

It is now strikingly clear that if you take a party issue, if you make this issue completely binary, then you have an inherent party interest. If you say 'all jews are bad' when they are simply in positions of authority, then that is idiotic.

It's the same with saying 'Jews are not predominantly in positions of control or authority within the media' when they are. That is also idiotic.


Yet again we see why taking sides in a party in any sort of 'class warfare' or anything in any shape or form is inherently flawed. It's partially why Marx was incorrect: society has actually not been a series of class conflicts. Anyone who tells you this is incorrect. For many years, society has been calm and tranquil and completely at peace with the ruling class, and not even under intellectual slavery. It is only under certain conditions that they become mentally 'enslaved' per se and seek to break the bonds of the bourgeoisie. Obviously recognizing this is important: an unfortunate amount of critical analysis these days is based on Marx, it's also very idiotic. :3

Yet another reason why academic culture is flawed :3

[Anonymous No.13308267]

sweeping generalizations like "white people are racist" or "white people are insufferable to be around" is ascribing a blanket characteristic to entire race of people, and is in and of itself a racist way of looking at things, denying the inherent individuality of everyone and is thus dehumanizing and fucked up

it really makes you question what the FUCK is really going on with the left these days. initially, people who hated racism for REAL had visions of people living together in harmony, different colors holding hands all round the globe imagery. is that love and good vibes the goal anymore, is it even fucking talked about? NO. that's not what it seems to fucking be about. it's all some sort of identifying-with-opinion-as-self-worth virtue-signaling social-competition what-is-the-most-valuable-attribute-which-requires-the-least-effort-that-i-can-adopt-in-.5-seconds-and-makes-me-better-than-other-people bullshit that I've ever fucking heard. and the fucking policing of Everything that everyone ever does and says for any HINT of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia - and placing hate speech as if it is the most heinous crime ever committed, or that is currently being committed. nevermind genocides currently going on, nevermind starving children, nevermind rampant corruption in all facets of society's functioning, nevermind the depression rates, the dying ocean, what technology is doing to your stupid fucked up brain. nevermind all that.

[Anonymous No.13308277]

>>13308000
A lot of rationalization there so as to avoid the question of what it is that Jews do to make themselves so unpopular where ever they go. Counter semitism is a reaction to Jewish behaviour. Like a troublemaker kicked out of more than a hundred schools who says that everyone else was to blame, that they picked on him because they were so jealous because he was better than they were...

[قاسم !!Q8buEI7kZvM No.13308279]

>The Lavon affair was a failed Israeli covert operation, codenamed Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the summer of 1954. As part of the false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian-, American-, and British-owned civilian targets: cinemas, libraries and American educational centers.

You are wrong if you don't think Israel works to get Americans to die for them. You are alao wrong if you don't think organizations like the Anti Defamation Leage and the American Jewish Committee are not a threat to American unity. It is illegal in many states to boycott Israel, whereas corporations boycotting American states for restricting abortion is protected by the first amendment. Zionism controls America and America controls the world

[Anonymous No.13308281]

>>13308267
COINTELPRO: the modern left is a project of the American intelligence community

[Anonymous No.13308282]

>>13308267
Told you.

[Anonymous No.13308285]

>>13307762
>deliberately misread a post
>make your misreading into a greentext
OWNED

[Anonymous No.13308287]

>>13308279
Lavon was not an isolated incident. They consider us Americans to be their property

[Anonymous No.13308288]

>>13308025
Thanks for the link anon, looks interesting!

[Anonymous No.13308294]

>>13308267
based

[Anonymous No.13308295]

>>13308267
>whataboutery
>pretending racism isn't a structural aspect of society expressly created and reified by those who consider themselves white
About what I expect from /lit/ these days. Golf club bores and midwits

[Anonymous No.13308300]

the hotly fought over racism topic as well as most topics that are discussed in mainstream politics, or even on pol, are like fucking fisher price toddler toy rattlers covered in baby shit thrown to you by the media and other interest groups. they think, let these fucking idiots play and fight with these baby shit toys over here in the baby pen and occupy themselves with that while we slowly yet persistently reduce their quality of life, lower their wages, and amass as much wealth as we can for ourselves, and have them support our doing that philosophically/ideologically and worship us while we do it

[Anonymous No.13308303]

>>13308279
>It is illegal in many states to boycott Israel
If this is indeed true, that is indeed wrong and something should be done about it.

I don't believe the situation is as severe as you say it is, yet I -do- think there is an undue influence Israel has on America.

Shockingly enough, the Democratic candidates had a pro-Palestine platform. That was one of the few things I liked about their party.


Now, I don't like either political party, but I tend to lean towards Republicans because they realize that homosexuality is immoral and that abortion is wrong. But if a conservative democrat comes along (not another corporate democrat like Clinton or Obama) and platforms AGAINST the theft of the Palestinian state by Israel, I am on board. Completely fucking on board man. :3

[Anonymous No.13308310]

>>13308300
Remind me of the demographics of that group

[Anonymous No.13308314]

>>13308303
Tulsi Gabbard is the closest you'll ever see for that in your lifetime

[Anonymous No.13308315]

I can't believe anyone in this world fucking gives a shit about politics

[Anonymous No.13308317]

Stop being anti-Semitic

[Anonymous No.13308325]

>>13308314
or Bernie Sanders. Which also proves that blanket characterizations of any ethnic group is misleading.

[Anonymous No.13308326]

The jews, the anglos, and the arabs are the most disgusting creatures on the planet and i will be happy when the Han replace them and it will be funny because its their own fault

[Anonymous No.13308331]

>>13308325
I mean that Tulsi is much more socially conservative than any other Dem primary candidate

[Anonymous No.13308334]

>>13308326
what is "the Han"

[Anonymous No.13308335]

>>13308310
this way of thinking is another one of the baby rattler toys I'm talking about, friend

[Anonymous No.13308336]

>>13308326
It will be the pajeet and the negro, check the birthrates

[Anonymous No.13308337]

>>13308325
Bernie Sanders doesn't prove anything. He's a self-professed socialist, but is really just another welfare-state democrat.

I have no problem with nationalizing healthcare, but I don't think its intelligent to call nationalizing healthcare socialism. :3

[Anonymous No.13308338]

>>13308281
i used to fuck girls like you in prison

[قاسم !!Q8buEI7kZvM No.13308343]

>>13308287
Jews make enormous profit from sales and ills caused by drugs. It also destroys the unity and culture of host nations. This is really what the invasion of Afghanistan was about

>In July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the UN to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. The Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas, roughly three quarters of the world's supply of heroin at the time.[19] The ban was effective only briefly due to the deposition of the Taliban in 2002.

[Anonymous No.13308344]

>>13308277
>so as to avoid the question of what it is that Jews do to make themselves so unpopular where ever they go.
I'm not avoiding that question at all. I think it's an important question to ask, but the answer doesn't necessitate "blaming" them or wanting to eliminate them. After all, societies tend to grow faster when they are around. If you remove them, growth would be much slower. Keeping them around is a trade off, so we should be asking that question, in order to better understand how to utilize what they have to offer and prevent it from tyrannizing the whole, which is eventually what happens, and causes the society in question to become weak and unable to sustain the growth its had. And anyway, the people who usually clamor for their removal are part of that weakness and have very little to do with their much stronger forefathers who made the decision to invite the Jews in.

[Anonymous No.13308358]

>>13308343
The pharmaceutical and drug sales industry is part of the main problems there.

This is a great example of my non-party lines approach. I don't really -care- if the pharmaceutical industry is or is not controlled by Jewish interests, something needs to be done to fix it. More and more people are overdiagnosed with conditions they do not have, and some emphasis must be given to understand the -source- of this problem: money.

In many cases, opiates are prescribed over the counter, so it is not so far away from profiting heroin sales either. In fact, heroin dealers have a vested interest to make sure that medication like Oxycontin and Fentanyl stays on the market. :3

[Anonymous No.13308360]

Let's say there is a conspiracy. Nevermind who it is. Let's say they've amassed all the money and the power. You think you're going to find their names and numbers and take them down, expose them? You think you're going to find proof of anything and get it in the news? You think anyone can do these things? Anything specific you can dig up can always be "debunked", or ignored

No, man. Your only chance is creating a system which is impervious to corruption and manipulation. And creating that system would rely on your ultimate dedication to leading a life which would help it to come into being. Probably going to take a lot of work, a lot of becoming more virtuous. But are you going to do that, would you even be willing to make that sacrifice of your time and energy? You and I both know what the most likely answer is

[قاسم !!Q8buEI7kZvM No.13308373]

>>13308358
The left in America do not want state healthcare to be able to negociate price, why is this? To give Jews a blank check to sell drugs. Jewish "socialists" in America also never discuss the first concern, socializing central banking. Why is this? Because it ia by the Jews and for the Jews

[Anonymous No.13308374]

I like when Zizek talked about how the nazi's could have forced a confession out of any of the jewish people in captivity and get them to admit to whatever world wide conspiracy they were blamed for but they didn't even do that because even the nazi's knew it was bullshit.

[Anonymous No.13308376]

>>13308338
It's nice to feel wanted desu senpai

[Anonymous No.13308385]

>>13308285
>Misleading
Maybe if you're a fucking moron

[Anonymous No.13308423]

>>13308373
I think that sometimes when money is involved it causes the 'doctors' (sometimes Jewish, sometimes not) to want to create a profit.

An inquiry into why the system has gotten this way would be nice.

We used to function just fine on the basis of no usury involved. Plato's ideal socialist society described in his Laws has a society where the penalty of not having the money returned revolves on the person loaning the money: i.e. the person loaning the money must make sure he is loaning to reputable individuals.

Look at how far we have fallen. Ideologically, in order to have a society like that one must only think about material gain or benefits.

I mean look at me: I am someone profoundly impacting society on here and elsewhere. The first thing people think about is some sort of material gain or material advantage. Much of this could be solved if more people just found God.


Not only this, I also think that socialism is impossible in a 'materialistic' society, where people only think about profits or money. In other words, nothing good can come from solely functioning based on profit motives: another sociological area where Marx was incorrect. :3

[Anonymous No.13308458]

>>13308373
The least they could do is make a centralized drug price bargaining organ and heavily tax exports of drugs derived from taxpayer dollars. Those two things would greatly improved the American healthcare system. There is literally no reason we should be subsidizing the health of everyone else without compensation

[Anonymous No.13308579]

>>13307957
There are no structures off oppression. In a pure meritocracy some groups will do better than others. You attribute this to outside forces because you have been indoctrinated into the idea of the blank slate

[Anonymous No.13308589]

>>13308116
Except you can't. Whites are openly criticized in the media and academic institutions while criticizing any other race in a similar manner results in you being ousted from your campus or having your livelyhood destroyed

[Anonymous No.13308592]

>>13307593
>>13307604
There's two points:
1) If you don't behave ethnocentrically when other people are you're putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage, so you should
2) Progressivism is feminine so their arguments will be feminine, i.e. you can't "own them with facts and logic" because they'll just call you a virgin regardless of how correct you are. So don't take them seriously

[Anonymous No.13308601]

>>13308385
he said misreading oynon

[Anonymous No.13308628]

>>13308338
Based and lesbian pilled

[Anonymous No.13308671]

The problem with anti-semetic fascism is twofold. You can't have it both ways. Jews are depicted contradictory ways, and this inconsistency exposes a logical flaw.

The very deepest hatred of Jews, counterintuitively, almost forms a sort of worship of them, a strange idolatry. Jews are constructed as an absurdly powerful natural phenomenon, responsible for all sides of a political conflict and global change. They are seen as both the capitalist oppressor and the marxist conspirator. They are seen as greedy and yet also support mass immigration policies that vastly benefit the downtrodden and unwanted of the world.

This ascription of superhuman powers to Jews clashes with them being viewed as subhuman.

At the same time the longstanding cultural suspicion of Jews in the west stems from their unique history of displacement and ostracism. If they are seen as in-group focused or nepotistic, it's because the social pressures forced them to be. So the very act of anti-semitism called forth the behavior of Jews it abhors.

Also because of an accident of history their religion became a major influence in the world through the abrahamic tradition, which further lends them an air of mystery and power. Events in ancient history have outsized influence further downstream of history.