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13284994 No.13284994 [Reply] [Original]

Best critique of hedonism? I'm at my wife's end here

Hard mode: no eternal paradise in the after life

>> No.13284996

>>13284994
Wit's*

>> No.13285005

>>13284994
Hedonism won't lead to a happy life

>> No.13285013

>>13285005
Yeah, that's the hard mode in this thread. Happy life is not gonna happen. So, pleasure is second best, right? Assume I have the knowledge to acquire the best pleasures

>> No.13285022

>>13285013
>happy life is not going to happen
god I hate pseuds who project their lack of contentment onto literally every human being

>> No.13285024

>>13285022
I hate people who don't accept philosophy is not always about predicting universals

>> No.13285030

>>13285024
Predicating*

>> No.13285033

>>13284994
Self-benefit is what everyone desires. Hedonism just tries to do it in the wrong way. People who purposely pain themselves with exercising, studying, working, etc. instead of constantly living off pleasure are much happier for it.

>> No.13285069

>>13284994
It leads to evil and you lose your soul. Just get over the hump.
There's absolutely no religion and almost no philosophies which promote losing your soul in food or sex. That and nobody respects you. It's like a short sighted druggie, are you willing to rob your dignity to feed your addiction
Ppl with self control do big things in their lives.
That and no self control leads to u chopping ur shit off.
Also once u get over the hump it's done

Go tinder a girl just don't masturbate, as long as it doesn't make u a pervert

>> No.13285071

>>13285013
>>13285024
>>>/adv/
You seem to be asking for the questions you should be answering yourself. Hapyness is a state of mind, just like any other feeling, really. For me, i can't feel but disgust towards anyone who behaves like an animal, but i doubt that reason is any more tempting than pleasure.

>> No.13285076

>>13285071
I'm asking for literature dealing with hedonism and critiques of hedonism

>> No.13285080

>>13285024
It necessarily must, can u give an example where it doesn't?

>> No.13285096

>>13285076
Augustine

Epicureanism is anti pure hedonism and really ascetic hedonism. If you're looking for a way to channel it

>> No.13285097

>>13285076
Schopenhaur
Dostoyevsky
Tolstoy

>> No.13285124

>>13285076
Nicomachean ethics by Aristotle will help you

>> No.13285138

>>13285080
Particular statements about nouns can be universal in form but not content

>> No.13285149

White pill senpai
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/kids-waiting-longer-classic-marshmallow-self-control-test

>> No.13285154

>>13285138
Sure, but if you're focusing on content, and not form, it's mostly a science

>> No.13285179

why does everyone think hedonism = unmoderated crazy party life

>> No.13285207

>>13285179
Bad foundation for choosing what is right and wrong

>> No.13285229

If you suffer from ahedonia, like I do, you are pretty much fucked, since there is barely anything pleasurable in life and the few things that are, are only decreasing if anything.

>> No.13285238

>>13285076
Kierkegaard's either/or

>> No.13285277

>>13285154
A science of nouns? You're crazy

>> No.13285297

>>13285277
Science deals in particulars, philosophy deals in essence

>> No.13285345

Hedonism leads directly to utilitarianism. Since utilitarianism is so obviously retarded hedonism must be a flawed idea.

>> No.13285368

>>13285297
Essence and universals aren't the same thing

Not to mention ontology

>> No.13285388

Hedonism is not possible because of the laws of thermodynamics. In the same sense that all biological processes are determined by thermodynamic laws, the limits of what biological systems are capable of is also determined. Hedonism, the choice to live life to the fullest through indulgence, is not viable because of the limitations of the pleasure reward system. To maximize pleasure, constant investment and sacrifice is necessary. Unless your definition of hedonism is working out, eating a balanced diet, spending time with friends and loved ones, and abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

>> No.13285393

>>13285388
My definition of hedonism is "stoicism but you can go the extra mile for a positive feel every now and then"

>> No.13285484

>>13285393
People build their school of ethics on a foundation of metaphysics. If you are ignorant of the mechanical systems that compose everything in the universe, your school of ethics is going to be worthless ideological cancer. For example, under hedonism the individual is left to define happiness however they see fit. If the individual doesn't have a masters degree equivalent of education in molecular biology and psychology, their definition is not likely, but absolutely certain to be incorrect. This leads to all sorts of major problems that affect quality of life, not just for the individual but everyone they deal with. Everyone is a role model to all others. To a layman, the best definition would be that happiness is a neurochemical state characterized by specific concentrations of various neurotransmitters. It is a measurable, quantifiable, verifiable state of a physical system.

>> No.13285637

your mood adapts to your circumstances, so pursuing hedonism would make you feel good at first but the hedonistic high would become your new middle state. you will never be happy forever, so the best way to live us to find a system of values that allows you to be in slightly better situations as you age, reaching a new state of lesure and accomplishment soon after you adjust to the old one.

>> No.13285661

>>13285368
Essence is a universal for the subject.
Kant used this to argue any true essential definition of morality was necessarily universal or it wasn't what morality is.

>> No.13285667

>>13285388
That's pretty good mate

>> No.13286806

>>13284994
picture of dorian grey could be viewed as a critique on hedonism I suppose
even though it definitely romanticizes it, it is ultimately portrayed as self destructive

>> No.13286862

hedonism with a focus on physical pleasure has inherent limits, pleasure and happiness are fundamentally separate. the easy way to explain is that happiness is an ephemeral aspect of self-actualization, and happiness is therefore something that can only be attained temporarily as a result of actions which actualize the self-image of man. Achieving happiness forces man to go farther, take the next step, do the more difficult thing to follow up. The initial wonderment of an LSD trip gives way to the use of LSD to discover something imperceptible to the sober mind. The human mind desires a sort of progression and goal system in order to achieve meaning, and pleasure itself is inherently stagnant, so that on its own the seeking of pleasure will melt into a crippling ennui-- but the seeking of pleasure bolstered by purpose will be the richer for it.

>>13285388
even from a full-hedonist perspective, preventative maintenance on a healthy mind and body is requisite to maximized capacity for chemical pleasure. Without acknowledging a search for purpose outside neurochemical bliss, you're still hedonist, just a hedonist who admits that MDMA weekends are insufficient means to the hedonist end.

>> No.13286883

>>13285388
>Unless your definition of hedonism is working out, eating a balanced diet, spending time with friends and loved ones, and abstaining from drugs and alcohol.
That's pretty much Epicurus' definition, since he reasoned that one should maximise long term pleasure and shortcuts don't work and lead to misery.

>> No.13286884

>>13285069
Tinder and masturbation are equally bad habits.

>> No.13287021

>>13286884
Jacking off doesn't give you STDs, rape accusations or murder attempts. Big practical difference there bub

>> No.13287058

>>13285661
I think I get what you're saying, but not fully...

>> No.13287064

>>13284994
Why not just do it and see where it leads?

>> No.13287073

>>13285661
>>13287058
I think I get it now.

Since essence would have to inhere in things universally for the subject to be able to think properly at all? Is that correct?

>> No.13287739

Hedonism is fundamentally correct. You're just doing hedoism wrong.
The question central to hedonism is what is fundamentally desirable, or that is, what is the ultimate end of your actions?
You may desire many things. Honor and respect from your peers; love from your friends and family; sexual pleasure; money and wealth; health and fitness; or a job with good benefits.
While these are things that are desired, they are a means to a more ultimate end. You may desire money, but money isn't something you value in itself intially. You value money because of what it gives you in the context of society. You can buy stuff with it and it gives you an air of respectability if you make a good amount of it. Because of the context of society, merely seeing your bank balancing continually go up may in itself spark joy, but that's only because of societal context.
And with respect to say, things you want to buy with money, you desire those things also as a means. That means is happiness, as you are trying to make yourself happier by obtaining things, which may or may not work in practice, but, nonetheless, that is the end you are aiming toward.
In like fashion, you can break down happiness as the ultimate end to all your other aims. Whether that's buying a bag of donuts or instead eating healthy, or if it's choosing what to major in in college.
Some people confuse hedonism with mere pleasure seeking and criticise this as not yielding a happy life. This is to criticize a specific form of hedonism within the framework of... hedonism! If the hedonist knows he'd become miserable in the long run by doing cocaine, he won't do cocaine. If he knows that holding to certain virtues, like being honest, will make him more satisfied with his life, then he will adopt those virtues.
Almost everyone is a hedonist. They're just doing hedonism badly.

>> No.13287741

>>13284994
Plato's the Laws

>> No.13287929
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13287929

>>13287073
Yeah

>> No.13287932

>>13287073
A good example of essence is 2+2=4 or science is positive empiricism

>> No.13287944

>>13287741
Seriously? Didn't know that was in there

>> No.13288009
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13288009

>>13285013
Unironically read Kierkegaard. Pic related is long but focuses on exactly what you are talking about. After it, I recommend Fear and Trembling. You seem to very much be in the 1st phase of the 3 phases of philosophical existence that Kierkegaard addresses. Specifically, the mode of hedonism.

By reading Judge Vilhem's counter arguments to the Hedonist's point of view, it should help you find some answers. But still will probably leave you a little unsatisfied. Thats when you need to read Fear and Trembling and learn about the Knight of Faith, the phase of existence that basically achieves enlightenment.

>> No.13288028

>>13285069
>Go tinder a girl just don't masturbate
Agreed until this. Literally the opposite. Forget about the fact that using other people for your own perversions is much worse than simply exploiting yourself. But using women on tinder is much more expensive, time consuming, and physically dangerous (STDs). I'm not going to promote masturbation, but its the better alternative.

>> No.13288216

>>13284994
The truest hedonistic action would be to OD on painkillers and die.

>> No.13288233 [DELETED] 

>>13285076
The fact you had to say this is proof enough of what a toilet this>>13285080
board is

>> No.13288238

>>13285076 #
The fact you had to say this is proof enough of what a toilet this board is

>> No.13288250

>>13288028
I guess I meant get a gf, I agree w u

>> No.13288267

>>13285024
>happy life is not going to happen
What's that you were saying about universals again

>> No.13288272

>>13288267
The subset of particular happy lives is not

The outcome of a singular life does not say anything significant about universals

>> No.13288283

>>13284994
>I'm at my wife's end here
Come, come

>> No.13288295

>>13285005
Citation needed.

>> No.13288298

>>13284994
>Best critique of hedonism? I'm at my wife's end here
Foreboding.

>> No.13288310

>>13288250
How are you supposed to get a gf? Have you ever made a fake dating profile for a female? Their experience is insane, I’m not going to be one of the hundreds of guys that throw themselves at a woman’s mercy in the name of being a man, that’s the real toxic masculinity. If a girl wants me, great, until then I’ll be alone.

>> No.13288333

Without restraint pleasure isn't as pleasurable. Simple as. You know how jacking off the first time a day is better than the fourth usually and how food tastes' better when you're hungry? That's the gist of it. Constant satisfaction is boredom. It reflects on human bodies. If you just eat what tastes good all the time you look like shit. If you can eat healthy food and sustain the diet in the modern world you're gonna be eating decently, and then you'd have a more beautiful body, which is a longer lasting pleasure. Shorter pleasures can be more intense but more long term ones get better as they build up.
If pleasure is the highest good, that implies if you're not having pleasure all the time you're failing at the one thing that matters above all in life. That's a large burden to carry, since pleasure can go away just as much from chance as from mistakes in voluntary activity.

Avoid asceticism though. Ascetics tend to be less sociable people than either hedonists or temperate people. People won't see them as fun because they don't participate in the social rituals that people do to relax like drinking or to feel emotional fulfillment and sexual satisfaction, like dating (married people being an exception, but if all goes well they also have sex). And one is much happier in life with friends, even if they aren't perfect people.

>> No.13288934

>>13284994
Is like to meet the person that made this image