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/lit/ - Literature

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13249937 No.13249937[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>presents the most sensible idea of a God out of all the religions
why aren't you still converting?

>> No.13249959
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13249959

>>13249937
oops wrong image

>> No.13249971

>>13249959
>trinity is a sensible idea
have you tried thinking anon?

>> No.13249976

>>13249959
Allah (swt) tend down the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel too

>> No.13250009

>>13249976
assuming you're a muslim, explain me this.
What is the intended factor by God of the Quran's truthness?

>> No.13250026

>>13250009
goat fucking feels great, what more proof do you need

>> No.13250041

>>13250009
Factor?

>> No.13250059

>>13250041
I mean convincing factor. What's primary convincing factor intended by God of Quran's truthness? It can't be anything scientific, right? Because that wouldn't be a timeless factor.

>> No.13250079

>>13249937
>a God who has a hand, actuallyspeaks in a language he has created (Arabic or Hebrew), changes his mind when he hears a prayer and has abrogated verses which have not even been put into practice in the book that compiles his speech, sits on a throne above the seven layers of sky, a throne which at the same time covers both the sky and earth is a sense idea of a God
The only sensible aspects of the prophet's God was unity, justice, and mercy, the rest of it had to be interpreted away in order to make sense.

>> No.13250082

>>13249937
Bro it's not even in chronological order and it was revealed by an illiterate sand nigger having hallucinations in a cave who admitted that some of the verses he was given were by SATAN

>> No.13250121

>>13250059
The two major factors it cites are its supernatural beauty and elegance (Pickthall comes closest in English), and its consistecy. The first.was what really won over Arabs, as they esteemed poetry beyond anything else and associated a writing's beauty with its truth.

>> No.13250132

>>13250082
It is not a narrative like the Bible. It has many narratives within it but they are contained within their respective chapters

>> No.13250136

Shadow of The Sword by Tom Holland is a good redpill on the formation of Islam

>> No.13250177

>>13250136
Tom Holland doesn't even speak Arabic. Most orientalists accept the Islamic account is generally correct. Read Motzki on hadith.

>> No.13250191

>>13250136
Tom Holland is an alt right nazi

>> No.13250202

>>13250121
Its elegance will only be understood by Arabic speakers, so how is it a convincing factor for non-Arabs?

>> No.13250207

>>13250202
It wasn't. They had to be persuaded.

>> No.13250212

>>13250202
The only convincing thing about Islam is the story, just like the Bible. Religion is literally like a piece of art. And as Wittgenstein says, to like a work of art is to like the culture of was produced in. There is no rational convincing beyond this.

>> No.13250213

>>13250136
Most accounts of the life of Muhamnad, the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, were, it is true, written down long after he died. However the Muslim scholars who wrote them down based on a firm chain of recorded oral transmission by known and reliable transmission--99% of accounts were not written down because they lacked stringent credibility. Those accounts that were are not considered infallible or verbatim, often scholars compare several contradictory ones and extrapolate what is likely. This is why it is critical to follow a madhhab, not "do it yourself" when it comes to reading the Hadith. For example Muhammed, the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was reported to order men to never trim their beards. The Maliki madhhab, based on scholarly examination, comparisom and consensus, has determined what he likely said was it is preferable to not cut off one's beard, not that it is haram, ket alone that you can't trim. An important part of Maliki methodology is examining the practices of Medina during the generation Muhammed, Alkah's peace and blessings be upon him, passed, then using that to figure out what is probable.

So you see, it is not sloppy

>> No.13250216

>>13249937
Literal cult propaganda

>> No.13250222

>>13250202
It does carry over if translated well. Nothing like the original, but Pickthall will give you an idea and will affect you

>> No.13250230

>>13250213
My writing however is very sloppy, a thousand pardons

>> No.13250232

>>13250213
You are kind of clueless as well lol. All madhabs agree shaving is haram except shafii, and Imam Shafii himself (not his students) said it was haram to do so as well. With regard to trimming, it is accepted to be the sunnah of the prophet to trim whatever is left after gripping the beard with a fist and to deliberately not follow the sunnah is makruh in all madhabs.

>> No.13250242

>>13250222
You're missing my primary point. I asked what's the factor that's intended by God Himself?
Assuming that pickethall's version IS beautiful, his version didn't exist before 1800s, and Islam established way before.

>> No.13250257

The only acceptable form of Islam was a mu'tazili-hanafi mix that was killed of in the early centuries. May God forgive the ummah for being so misguided for 1400 years.

>> No.13250261

>>13249937
So you have this guy, he's a bit of a prophet, says some nice things about god.
Only, damn, he doesn't have a lot of followers and he keeps having to pay for stuff.
Hey, super weird, now God is telling him that Rape, Murder, and Pillaging is a-okay, as long as you do it in his name and give some of it to his prophet.
Awesome.
Maybe if Mohammed had been crucified before he got lazy and selfish, it would be a halfway decent religion.

>> No.13250268

>>13249937
>denies christs crucuifixion despite that being the most historically certain fact about Jesus, rejected only by the fringe historians who think he never existed
>endorses Christ and his followers while contradicting their claims
>includes stories about Christ from the apocryphal gospels which were unanimously rejected by the early Christians as gnostic heresies. Gospel of Thomas, from which the Quran takes the story of Jesus bringing clay birds to life, is rejected by all historians
>allah allows christs message to get so perverted that it becomes unrecognisable and creates a huge religion which Islam says is false. Such a great prophet!
>comes 600 years after the gospels (earliest accounts of christs life) yet muslims ask us to believe the Quran over the gospels. This is like me making contentious claims about events in the 1400s and writing a book where I use stories from sources that are unanimously rejected by historians.

>> No.13250270

>>13250232
I have never read that in any book, only that beards are encouraged, and I look for no further answers because the Prophet, the peace and blessings of Alkah be upon him, said that when a believer causes something to be prohibited by asking about it, he is committing the worst sin. So I read what I should but do not look up what is not explicit therein.

I personally do have a beard

>> No.13250290

>>13250268
If you believe in something as absurd as God, believing God replaced Jesus with another person and protected him is not so difficult. Though the fact that Gods message keeps failing in such an unrecognisable manner is one of the many reasons I'm no longer a Sunni (or) Muslim.

>> No.13250297

>>13250242
In that case the answer is its internal consistency, its harmony, its clarity, and its comprehensiveness. This is why sectarian struggles are still defined largely by political rather than theological disputes

>> No.13250301

>>13250297
See this >>13250079
I didnt think these up myself.

>> No.13250309

>>13250270
Man honestly I've been picking on you since I first saw you here because I personally have a problem with Islam and have been struggling to believe for the past 6 or 7 years. But I think if you really are sincere, and you do seem to be, get away from this site. It won't help you keep your faith and you arent going to make da'esh here.

>> No.13250311

>>13249937
>why aren't you still converting?
because i'm not a pedophile rapist
and there's no fucking god

>> No.13250313

>>13250309
>tfw autocorrect makes da'wah into da'esh
Lol I guess.

>> No.13250314

>>13250290
Allah is so incompetent that by saving Christ he spawned a whole religion where people falsely assumed that Christ was crucified and brought back to life until, 600 years later, he revealed that Jesus was not in fact crucified. The gospel writers were so deceived by allah that they all wrote of Jesus's crucifixion, leading most historians to conclude that Jesus was in fact crucified.

>> No.13250334

>>13250311
there is one.

>> No.13250336

>>13249959
>Genesis [3:8] They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
>Genesis [3:9] But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

>most sensible idea of a God
>God walks through the gardens of Eden and plays hide and seek with Adam and Eve

>> No.13250339

Terms like "right hand man" "your right hand possesses" "your hand is against every man" and "hand of God" are what are known as idioms. Understanding what idioms are really helps.

The first heaven, created before the earth, is out space or the sky. The other six are different universes, so to speak, like the seven hells.

Abrogation is really just layering more and more rules on, the negation conception of it is just an idiosyncratic way of putting it.

>> No.13250350

>>13250334
prove it

>> No.13250351

>>13250309
But brother I seem to have stirred your own heart somewhat

>> No.13250363

>>13250268
>>13250314
Muslims think Christ's followers were the Nazarenes, who probably had a "sayings Gospel" (like the Gospel of Thomas) in Aramaic, not a biographical Gospel.

Christianity was spawned by Paul.

>> No.13250382

>>13250351
Maybe, though tbf to the prophet it's the book in the OP which stirs my heart.

>> No.13250396

>>13250350
sure.

1) universe's progression from a tiny point to here. That point didn't have to exist, there's no reason for it to. Unless you say it randomly popped out of nowhere, all logical explanations leads to someone putting it there.

2) even if you study human biology for first year college, you would see how ridiculously planned every single facet of our body is to work in a certain way. No amount time or accident can cause this.

This is called proof by deduction, a scientific term.

>> No.13250406

>>13250396
lol

>> No.13250409

>>13250406
nice argument

>> No.13250416

>>13250382
Were you a Muslim before or born to parents?

>> No.13250419

>>13250416
Born Muslim.

>> No.13250420

>>13250363
Hahaha yeah Paul is more powerful than Allah. Allah could protect Jesus from death but not his message from Paul.

>> No.13250423
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13250423

>>13250336
>Taking the book of Genesis literally

>> No.13250436
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13250436

>>13250026
>>13250207
>>13250232
>>13250261
>>13250311
Money is a powerful influence, and the driving force behind whabbiism

>> No.13250472

>>13250423
Truth is genesis was interpreted literally until very recently. There was a huge debate in medieval christianity between biblical and poetic language that makes the context for Dante's Comedy, that basically amounts to reading the bible as history and poetry as lies. Muslims are still stuck at this point.

>> No.13250477

>>13250382
Alhamdulillah!

>> No.13250487

>>13250420
The Nazarenes continued to exist until the time of the Prophet (pbuh).

>> No.13250488
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13250488

>>13250396
sweet baby christmas i thought IDers had died out long ago

>> No.13250492

>>13250423
>The bibles is convincing
>only if you consider the part that aren't convincing to be metaphors.

>> No.13250497

>>13250488
Intelligent design doesn't die, but even though it is inadequate as an argument for the existence of God, it is a natural consequence of accepting God's existence (read Kant's third critique).

>> No.13250505

>>13250497
in what way it is inadequate?
A certain argument existing for a long time doesn't make it any less valid.

>> No.13250506

>>13250472
The Qur'an a rather different take on Genesis than the Bible. Adam was already mortal before eating the fruit (Satan, who is not a talking snake, promises it will give Adam immortality). It is just a fruit. Adam asks for God's forgiveness and gets it. God doesn't walk around or rest or make man in His image. There is nothing to suggest the Deluge covered the whole planet, indeed that is contrary to the recurring theme of God's wrath being incited by the rejection of His messenger (here Noah); each messenger who is an ultimatum prophet is sent to a specific people and if they refuse to heed, God reigns fury on them. Examples include Egypt after Moses, Median after Shu'eyb, Sodom and Gomorrah after Lot, Jerusalem after Jesus, Thamud after Salih, etc.

>> No.13250516

>>13250396
el oh el
the absolute state of christcucks

>> No.13250521

>>13250516
not an argument too.
not a christian either.

>> No.13250541

>>13250521
>he thinks anyone on a malawian philately tea saloon will bother countering his oft-times debunked non-argument

>> No.13250558

>>13250541
>he thinks stock retorts are gonna mask the fact that he doesn't have a compelling counter-argument
please take a seat anon.

>> No.13250589

>>13250487
First of all the term "Nazarene" was used to describe first century Christians and their beliefs were indistinguishable from that of Paul. They were called this first by Jews on account of Jesus being from Nazareth.
The sect you are talking about are the 4th century Nazarenes who believed in the crucifixion but denied that the Old Testament law was done away with. To call these people Muslims is disingenuous.

Now Muslims always go on about how Christ was a great prophet but in fact the Islamic Jesus can only be described as an utter failure. His message was so distorted by Paul that it directly caused one of the largest anti-Muslim religions in which Jesus is worshipped as the crucified god. In saving Jesus from crucifixion and deceiving everybody in the process, Allah sent billions of people to Hell who thought they were following the authentic teachings of Christ.
You have to give Paul credit. Not only did he thwart Allah's plan and turn Jesus's ministry into a fiasco, fooling all future historians, he also sent billions hell. Who knew one man could be so powerful?

>> No.13250601

>>13250505
I'm really not bothered to elaborate, and since this is an anonymous board it wont count as arrogance if I say I thought it myself before having read Hume, but seriously just Google his critique of it.

The standard analogy for ID is the watchmaker analogy. You have no reason to assume a broken branch that would make a perfect cane was carved by a carpenter (or whoever makes walking sticks) just because it seems suitable for the job. This is the state of the universe as opposed to the watch found in the wild. Intelligent design would be correct inductively, if we had seen multiple universes which had been created by God and thus had a good reason to assume God must have created this one too. It does not in itself give us a good reason but a mere feeling for an author, makes us think nature is art (the work of a skilful master).

That there is need for a cause for everything (and the risk of infinite regress) is a better argument, but it still doesn't provide us with reason to believe there was a First Cause that is the cause of all things except for practical reasons. This is not the argument ITT but the common fallacy mentioned even by Aristotle is
>everything has a cause
>therefore there is a cause of all things
Compare it to the following
>everybody has sight
>therefore there is something that sees everybody
Both are equally fallacious, and the second doesn't follow even if the first were true.

>> No.13250619

>>13250601
Your example is wrong.

>everybody has sight
>therefore all body's have sight

>> No.13250622

>>13250589
>their beliefs were indistinguishable from that of Paul.

Is that why Paul is always screaming at them they will go to hell if they don't stop circumcizing and following the law?

>The sect you are talking about are the 4th century Nazarenes

Literally no, they had an Aramaic Gospel

>Now Muslims always go on about how Christ was a great prophet but in fact the Islamic Jesus can only be described as an utter failure

Jesus, like many prophets in Islam, was rejected and consequently the people he was sent to suffered wrath, no more a failure than Salih. He will return to lead Muslims

>His message was so distorted by Paul

Paul invented his own religion for Greeks and largely used Jesus as a stand in

>In saving Jesus from crucifixion and deceiving everybody in the process, Allah sent billions of people to Hell who thought they were following the authentic teachings of Christ

Actually righteous Christians go to heaven, unlike pagans. That Paul invented a new religion however is not a blame to God, as the original Nazarenes continued to exist and eventually accepted Muhammad as the final prophet

>> No.13250634
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13250634

>>13250619
Yours is too lol. Sorry I am high. Here is where I had read this.

>> No.13250649

>>13250423
Ok Protestant

>> No.13250672

>>13250622
>why is Paul debating with them about Old Testament law... they had an Aramaic gospel
WOAH YOU FUCKING SLIMY BASTARD. This whole time I've been talking about the history of Christ and specifically his crucifixion, not the beliefs of early Christians about the law. Hahaha, you thought you could slip that one by there?
>he was rejected
Nonono my friend he wasn't just rejected his whole message was destroyed and distorted by Paul so much that it became unrecognisable from what Muslims assert really happened.
>Nazarenes
Again the Nazarenes believed in the crucuifixion. All historians except the fringe minority who think Jesus didn't exist believe in the crucuifixion. The Quran comes 600 years later and asserts that it didn't happen.
>Paul made a religion for Greeks
He made a religion where Jew and gentile can be equal.

>> No.13250686

>>13250634
I don't see how it doesn't follow. If someone is seen by everyone it follows that everyone sees someone. Perhaps if you swap out the variables it's clearer: if x is seen by y it follows that y sees x

>> No.13250693
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13250693

>>13249937
Oops wrong pick

>> No.13250697

>>13249937
Cus God isnt a sensible idea.

Go ahead Abrafag call me a fedora.

>> No.13250699

>>13250601
broken branch is a too simplistic to be comparable anywhere near to human biology.
So this analogy isn't accurate.
A more accurate analogy is if are you lost in a jungle and find a wooden house with a fireplace inside, a perfect place for you to spend the night in. The natural assumption in this case is that the house was built by someone who understands the needs of a human.

>> No.13250715

>>13250686
Look at the first sentence after the formula, and reconsider it:
>Note that the inverse is not valid.
>Everyone sees someone, therefore there is someone that is who is seen by everyone
>every event has a cause, therefore there is one cause which is the cause of all events
If in the case of a formula p, if x then y (e.g. if it is raining then it will be wet outside) is true by virtue of a material conditional, then affirming the consequent y (it is wet outside) does not mean it is necessarily true that x (it is raining), as it is obvious that it could be wet outside for a variety of reasons.

>> No.13250759

>>13250672
None of the prophets before Jacob were Jews, yet they all followed the same religion Jesus did.

>> No.13250781
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13250781

>>13249937
>why aren’t you basing your faith on sensibility Anon?

>> No.13250801

>>13250423
It has to be taken literally though.
Otherwise, the Fall of man didn't happen, and original sin isn't a thing. Which means Christ would have come down on Earth for no reason.
There's no way out of it.

>> No.13250807

>>13250699
This is what you are doing: You are saying the world is perfect for us, and you give the example of a hut discovered to be lived in. Let's say this is man in relation to his environment, everything appears as though it is meant for his use. What kind of a manner of looking at the world is this? It is teleological. You are looking for the ends or the final causes of things in relation to their envronement. This is how Aristotle and Darwin both did biology different ways, which is why the latter said his ‘two gods’, Linnaeus and Cuvier, were ‘mere school‐boys to old Aristotle’. But if by perfect you do not mean perfect for but perfect as in beautiful, then you are not saying anything that is necessarily true or that can have much argumentative value.

>> No.13250828

>>13249937
Because religion is retarded and so is your face

>> No.13250969

>reading polemics

Yeah that's a good way to understand a subject

>> No.13251048

>>13250969
That's actually the only way to understand a subject.

>> No.13251054

>>13251048
Name 1 polemical work.

>> No.13251057

>>13251054
Beyond Good and Evil

>> No.13251063

>>13251054
The entire history of philosophy.

>> No.13251096

>>13251057
Fair enough
>>13251063
You don't understand the term, shush

>> No.13251318

>>13251096
You haven't read much philosophy.

>> No.13251407

>>13249937
Because faith is not a means of processing information and structuring opinions. It's a means of playing pretend.

I am uncertain about the nature of the universe and how to judge values. This is simple intellectual honesty and the religious lack it severely.

>> No.13251425

>>13249976
>>13249976

If Allah sent down the Bible, and in Revelations John says, "Do not add anything to this book, or the curses of this book will be applied to you." Doesn't that mean that the Quaran is a book of Curses

>> No.13251445
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13251445

>>13249937
no u

>> No.13251452

>>13251445
moar when

>> No.13251458

because all the people who inherited this tradition ruined it with their inbreeding and blood feuds

>> No.13251515

>>13251425
I said the Gospel, the Torah and Psalms, not everything the Catholic Church includes in their Bible

>> No.13252492

>>13250222
I will say that I found much of the Koran to be beautifully written, even in translation. But I was confused by the fact that in one place it is written that God is the source of all human action, that He had but to say a thing and it was, and no human can be or do anything except for what God wants. Then elsewhere it is written that God is upset because people do not do what He wants...

>> No.13252497

>>13249971
>doesn't understand omnipotence and omnipresence the post

>> No.13252502

>>13249971
>three phases of matter is a sensible idea
There is only one state of matter!

>> No.13252515

>>13249937
Cringe
>>13249959
Based!

>> No.13252799

>>13252502
That interpretation is considered heretical by most sects of Christianity. The most widespread and accepted belief is that the nature of the Trinity is a Holy Mystery that cannot be comprehended by man. The people who condescend to others as though they understand it are being prideful. Which is a sin. Be humble with what you cannot understand.

>> No.13252812

>>13250801
It’s a symbolic representation of man gaining consciousness

>> No.13252864

>>13249937
>why aren't you still converting?
Because Allah says in the Quran "If I had wanted to make you all the same I would have". God didn't decide to make me born into a muslim family so who am I to question his judgment or the fate laid out for me?

>> No.13252889

>>13249937
>converting to a religion
>at all
I've got better shit to do than have enough arrogance to presume a divine creator exists and made the whole universe just for me, or any particular life in it.

>> No.13252938

>>13252492
Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, has no emotion, but He is firmly Just as one of His immutable attributes and He is "wrathful" as demanded by Justice, not feelings. But no one does anything except it is written.

>>13252864
You are planned to become a Muslim, Inshallah

>> No.13252989

>>13250506
Was there ever anything in Genesis to suggest Adam was immortal? To me it seemed like after eating the fruit, he became aware of death and was no longer clouded by ignorance.

>> No.13253163

>>13249959
Fpbp /thread

>> No.13253405

>>13252989
Really only way to take his warning that Adam will die if he eats the fruit

>> No.13253406

>>13252938
fuck yourself LARPing scum

>> No.13253519
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13253519

>>13249937
>Islam...Most sensible religion...
Hence most obviously man made.

For me it's Christianity, I humble myself before God's mystery and supernatural wisdom.

>> No.13253529

>Allah is a megalomaniac who only created humans to prostrate before him, he actually wanted this, making seem as if he needs it

>> No.13253584

>>13253519
>Hence most obviously man made.
Because it is man's nature to be sensible? But God designed that nature to make us drawn toward what is sensible.

>>13253529
Prostrating before Allah is the highest thing one can do

>> No.13253616

The absolute state of the serpent lettered namefag dawahing his way through a Cambodian penile corset imageboard. Imagine having to follow the utterance of the worst version of the Abrahamic god and his prophet with fucking incantations. In writing as well. Lip service, fear and a pathological obsession with hedonistic eschatology.

>> No.13253624

>>13253584
>Drawn towards what is sensible
God made our nature to be drawn to what is supra-sensible. God is beyond our sense and comprehension. Your admission shows the terrestrial origins of Islam.

Follow the teachings of a paedophile if you like, I'll stick to real prophets.

>> No.13253690

>>13253624
No, He really didn't, or else it would not be supra-sensible to us, would it?

>> No.13253716
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13253716

>>13253624
>Follow the teachings of a paedophile if you like, I'll stick to real prophets.

Boomer

Numbers 31:17-18

>Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

>Muhammed raided his enemies' caravans and had a child bride!
>Christians clutch pearls

>> No.13253763

>>13252812
Based and jungpilled

>> No.13253784

>>13249937
I really want to find this book interesting and meaningful but it was a load of crap. Can anyone help me out to some secundary literature or anything? I appreciate Abdal Hakim Murad but the teachings of the Koran seem out of my reach. Bible, on the other hand, was a much more interesting and inspiring read.

>> No.13253827

>>13253690
Yes it would, just because we are drawn towards the supra-sensible via prophecy/faith/intuition doesn't mean it is terrestrial and sensible.

>>13253716
>save the virgin girls
Ok.
>so you mean have sex with 9 year old slaves like in Islam?
Cringe.

>> No.13253971
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13253971

>>13249937
>god needs to be sensible
Yikes

>> No.13253985
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13253985

>>13249937
The Quran isn't inspiring but I respect Muslims (some of them at least) and I find some of their rituals to be admirable.

Sunni Islam is crypto-Calvinist and for that reason I'm out. Shia don't hold to this predestination (Mutazilite influence) as far as I know, but they have to cope with their Quran being a Sunni book. Sort of like how the Prots worship a Cathodox book.

I agree that most people critique Islam without realizing that it's pretty much the same as the OT...Jews know this...dumbass Prots apparently can't figure it out.

>> No.13253990

>>13253985
Also, I really despise the bullshit Sunnis believe about the Shias. There is an insane level of disinfo going around about Shias and the Sunnis ate it all up and think they're geniuses for it.

>> No.13254068

>>13249937
?

>> No.13254091

>>13253990
Fuck you Shiite dog. Shiites are idolatrous and have murdered innocent Muslims for hundreds of years.

>> No.13254123

>>13254091
Yet they're the only ones who have defeated Israel in war...What did Allah mean by that?

>> No.13254155

>>13252502
there's a lot more than three phases of matter, m8

>> No.13254244

Aren't the suras in a disorganized order that isn't strictly chronological? How does that fit in with the abrogation of verses by later ones?

>> No.13254250
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13254250

"Some Orientalists have alleged that it has been touched up in order to bring the language to the standard of perfection set by the pre-Islamic poets. In that case we must suppose that these purists in their revision have paid no attention to the extremely primitive rhymes of the most recent Suras and above all that they have passed over slight faults of grammar and style which it would have been so easy to rectify. (Qoran 20, 66: inna followed by a nominative; 49, 9, dual subject of a plural verb.) In 2, 106; 4, 40-41, the predicate is singular in the first clause of the sentence, and in the plural in the second although relating to the same grammatical subject. In 27, 61; 35, 25, passim, Allah speaks in the third person; then, without transition, in the first. Thus in 2, 172, the celebrated philologist Al-Mubarrad read al-barr instead of
al-birr, in order to avoid this singular construction: ‘piety is he who...’ In spite of all this there is no occasion for surprise in the fact that the Qoran, especially the Medinese Suras with their more polished phrases, less interspersed with ellipses and anacolutha than the pre-Hijran ones, has served as the standard for fixing the rules of national grammar...

The editors of the ‘qirav’a mashhura’, or textus receptus, worked under the domination of a servile scrupulousness for tradition. Otherwise they would not have been able to resist the temptation to improve, by means of equivalents readily furnished by the lexicon, the poor rhymes terminating the verses. They would not have scattered broadcast through the collection, sometimes in the course of the same Sura, groups of verses which have a logical connection. They would have tried to delete or tone down the principal repetitions and tautologies which make its bulk unwieldy. Revision after the author's death would have modified the verses relating to Zainab (Qoran 33, 37), and brought into agreement the differing versions of the same prophetic legend. In the enumeration of the prophets it would have separated and distinguished between those of the Old and those of the New Testament, and such a re-editing would have brought consistency into the story of Abraham's relations with Ishmael and Isaac, which are completely dissimilar as related in the Mekkan or the Medinese Suras. In deciding what order to assign to the Suras a critical revision would at least have adopted some criticism less primitive than that of length. Above all, it would have cut out the most glaring anachronisms: the confusion between the two Marys (19, 22), between Haman, minister of King Ahasuerus, and the minister of Moses' Pharaoh (Qoran 28, 5-7, 38; 40, 38); the fusion into one of the legends of Gideon, Saul, David and Goliath (2, 250, etc.); the story of the Samaritan (sic)who is alleged to have made the Jews worship the golden calf (20, 87, etc.). The Qoranic Vulgate has respected all this, and left everything exactly as the editors found it."

>> No.13254549

>>13249937
sensible =\= logical or correct
sensible = most in accordance with what is popular according to the (unintelligent) masses

>> No.13254560

>>13253827
Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, was no slave, she grew up tp be quite powerful and independent and a major relogious authority

>>13253985
The Quran is neither a Sunni nor Shia book, Muslims do not believe like Catholics that it was assembled based on the preference of the leaders, the book was scrupulously written down during Muhammad's, the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, time, and assembled according to the final order he taught. Shia are extremely wrong but both parties have great reverence for the Qur'an and ensuring it was estsblished as intended.

Maturidi creed reject the Ash'ari position that human's lack any agency apart from Allah, may he be glorified and exalted. Both are mainstream Sunni creeds and considered orthodox by each other, a Sunni is free to subscribe to either. Maududi was Maturidi as you can see from his book Toward Understanding Islam

>>13253990

Shias also work to spread disinfo, they are zealously active on historical articles on Wikipedia and push made up things about Abu Bakr, who made Ali his religious advisor, and Umar who married Ali's daughter, including that ridiculous claim that Umar came to her house and killed her unborn son.

Still you are right, the sectarianism harms everyone

>>13254244
Naskh really just adds rules, the idea that it negates other verses is not really true.

>>13254250
The Qur'an is the basis for standarized proper Arabic grammar, criticizing it here is more impossible than pointing out a mistake Shakespeare in English made regarding grammar or usage.

Saying anachronism has to do with Surah order makes no sense, each Surah is self-contained and independent, not like chapters. I'm sure I don't have to answer every blatant falsehood, please only assert with evidence in the future

>> No.13254608

>>13249937
I find the teaching presented in the Upanishads to be more agreeable and to make more sense but really it's not that different from the teachings of Sufism

>> No.13254633

>>13254608
Sufis are orders who teach esoteric prayers they believe were passed down from the Prophet, the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, through Ali, may Allah be pleased with him. They require you to have achieved perfect orthodoxy in belief and practice before seeking to join.

>> No.13254670

>>13254560
>The Quran is neither a Sunni nor Shia book

It was canonized by a Sunni caliph. Last time I checked Shia don't give a fuck about Uthman but correct me again if I'm mistaken. I'll look into Maturidi, thanks.

>> No.13254698

>>13254670
Uthman ordered it assembled into one volume, yes. He did not determine its order or the Surahs contained in it, also Ali accepted it.

>> No.13254786

>>13253990
met a sunni in palestine who said shias didn't believe mohammed was a prophet

>> No.13254787

If I am interesting in learning more about the Quran and Islam and maybe wish to practice is there a way I could independently begin? I live in Indiana and the closest mosque is about an hour and a half away, plus I don't really think I would fit in at a mosque just because of difference in background.

>> No.13254792

Do western mosques read the Koran in English or Arabic? If they read it in English what translation is the most common?

>> No.13254876

>>13249937
I'm open to Islam but my main issue has always been that why has God let his people fall into error, not once but twice. He lets the jews have their scripture corrupt then again with the Christians and only the third time he promises to preserve his text. Also, I can't believe that during the early years of the church the apostles, James Peter barnabas and Matthew were teaching tawhid that they got from imam Jesus but some how a couple years after they died, since our earliest writings of the new testament come as early as the year 48, soon after they were like "what did that Jesus guy say again after we spent 3 years with him? Actually forget it, let's start eating porn, stop circumcising and not have beard".

I guess it you could prove to me that the apostles were tawhid believing Muslims then I'd be open to Islam.

>> No.13254909

>>13254792
They read it in Arabic always.

>> No.13254952

>>13254792


Survey of Qur'an translations

http://www.islamicstudies.info/quran/translationssurvey.htm

I prefer Pickthall. The Study Quran is also very good, despite being a Shia effort it is nonsectarian and contains plenty of Sunni commentary


Mosques always read it in Arabic for the same reason the Catholic Church always used Latin. Well not even that, it is because it is considered true fidelity

>> No.13256192

>>13254787
Just go to that mosque and convert there and you can practice independently afterwards.

>> No.13256384

>>13254787
You can start by practicing Salah and wudu, if you need resources I can get them for you.

>>13256192
No, it is impossible to practice Islam "independently" without the
Ummah. You cannot even marry because the way kuffar court is haram

>> No.13256405

>>13256384
What's with the Dawah? Why here?

>> No.13256433

>>13256384
>You can start by practicing Salah and wudu, if you need resources I can get them for you.
Yes I would appreciate it, thank you.

>> No.13256442

>>13256405
People here read and most western academic works on Islam, despite many being excellent, are by non Muslims. Consequently Islam has a reputation in the west for being intellectually and theologically vapid. A movement, even a small movement, of literate converts with an interest in philosophy and theology, would change that. They would bring Muslim thinkers, philosophy and theology to more recognition, even if only on the internet

>> No.13256466

>>13256442
What do you think western Christians and atheists are going to see in Islam to make them convert?

>> No.13256470

>>13256442
Yeah yeah, but did your 4chan Hajj start with Dawah, or have you been lurking here before deciding to namefag? Also, how long until we manage to turn Islam in the west into Anglicanism (ie: Christian/Muslim atheists who make no metaphysical leaps)?

>> No.13256526

>>13256433

https://wikihow.com/Perform-Wudu?

This is ritual ablution, if you become impure you must do it before prayer or handling the Qur'an (technically not required for handling translations of it). Keep in mind what causes impurity and how ablution is done differs depending on madhhab, for example some say touching a woman does, but mine (Maliki) says only if it's in an an intimate, sexual way, and also how to do wudu differs from here. But you can worry about your madhhab later. You will also need to decide on a creed, Ash'ari or Maturidi, but those mostly come with your madhhab.

Salah

https://raleighmasjid.org/how-to-pray/salah.htm

Salah times
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah_times

Salah must be prayed verbatim (therefore in Arabic) when the words are from the Qur'an. However when you on your knees before finishing your prayers, you offer your petitions and personal prayers, which can be in any language. It is also customary here to pray for the Prophet, his wives, his children, his companions and his household here by asking for peace and blessings to be upon them

>> No.13256551

>>13256466
Fulfillmemt, tradition, truth, beauty, consistency, comprehensiveness

>>13256470
I like literature, including western titans like Dante and Shakespeare

The two traditional creeds and every madhhab excludes that option, bid'ah means reform but in Islamic terminology is means corruption of the faith, although a munafiq will ocassionally try

>> No.13256582

Islam is too worldly.

>> No.13256597

>>13256582
What do you mean? Islam prizes austerity

>> No.13256620

>>13256582
Too redpilled?

>> No.13256622

>>13256551
>Fulfillmemt, tradition, truth, beauty, consistency, comprehensiveness
Why?

>> No.13256628

>>13256551
>bid'ah means reform but in Islamic terminology is means corruption of the faith, although a munafiq will ocassionally try
I like how when talking to non-mooses, Western mooses always throw in Arabic terms in order to mistify their speech, even though there are perfectly acceptable English substitutes. Anyway, I agree that Islam is particularly resistant to reform. Scary shit.

>> No.13256632

>>13256622
Islam is designed to fit human nature like a glove, made specifically for us. Which is not humanism, as Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, designed human nature for His purposes

>> No.13256639

>>13256628
I use and explain the term because reform in English does not connote corruption, quite the reverse

>> No.13256645

>>13256632
I gained nothing from reading this

>> No.13256662

>>13249937
Either you're a delusional petersonian cuck who thinks "ugh it's not about literally believing in god hurr durr" or you're just plain stupid - being most sensible idea of a God(whatever the fuck that means lmao) still doesn't make it true (protip: it isn't). There is no god, so cope harder incels.

>> No.13256667

>>13256639
I wasn't referring to you, or bid'ah specifically. Just a general observation around young mooses in the West performing Dawah around Ramadan and throwing in an Arabic term every 5seconds in order to mystify their speech. Even though it does nothing for their non-muslim conversation partners. Granted, it's generally non Arab mooses, so there might be an inferiority complex/identity crisis at play there as well, whereby they need to reaffirm their moose identity through Arab larping.

>> No.13256675
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13256675

>> No.13256676

>>13249937
what do Muslims think about the Old and New Testaments?

>> No.13256677

>>13256667
Yes that is true similar to how some Catholics like to use Latin when unecessary

>> No.13256684

>>13256676
they don't

>> No.13256689

>>13256677
Similar, much different proportions though. Your average weed dealer turned no moustache bearded fedora moose will do that. And that's a substantial segment. But like I said, most likely to do with a south Asian/east African inferiority complex.

>> No.13256692 [DELETED] 

islam and judaism are both itneresting to me and would allow me to express my unitarian beliefs but the nearest mosques/temples are hours away and in the case of judaism they're just normie reform temples.

i come from a penetecostal background which is unitarian but I fell out of it for various reasons and we weren't that religious in my upbrinign but I always had a unitarian abstract outlook on God

>> No.13256722

Is it true that Islam teaches that God creates the universe from moment to moment, so that rather than cause and effect everything occurs due to a constant divine intervention?

>> No.13257058
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13257058

>>13249959
FPBP

>> No.13257216

>>13253519
>>13253624
/thread

>> No.13257221

>>13254549
OP choosing his religion like he chooses his politics.lol

>> No.13257395

>>13256722
That is the ash'ari position, yes. Also referred to as occasionalism.

>> No.13257445

Bc neoplatoism with vedic, Norse, and Roman influence is the true patrician taste

>> No.13257466

>>13250082
SATAN

>> No.13257656

>>13256676
The Torah and Psalms were inspired but contaminated by additional material and alternative accounts. Ghamidi considers the Septuagint closer than the Masoretic to the original.

The original Gospel was revealed by God to Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas is probably based on it but with additiinal Greek insertions.

>> No.13257665

>>13257656
all of which believed with no proof.

>> No.13257675

>>13256722
This belief is part of the Ash'ari Creed. Maturidi creed says however that Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, creates possibilities which humans have the freedom to choose from.

>>13257221
Politics is considered a religious concern in Islam

>> No.13257680

>>13257665
What proof would satisfy you?

>> No.13257916

>>13250059
the fact they'll kill you if don't believe.

>> No.13257962

>>13257916
That is not corrrct.

>> No.13257967
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13257967

Is this an accurate summary?

>> No.13257996

>>13257967
90% of Muslims are Sunnis

I am Maliki, it says to stone sodomites.

>> No.13258021

>>13257967
Also no, that is not aaccurate, it is category ISIS and Salafis as Hanbali when in fact they reject all four schools and say interpretation is up to the individual believer, they are basically like the Islamuc version of the Reformation. Hanbali is "fundamentalist", but most fundamentalist terrorists are not Habali

>> No.13258790

>>13257967
The problem is
1.Madhabs mostly agree with each other on most parts of religion, and all consider each other legitimate Muslims following the truth.
2.The laws established in modern Muslim countries do not conform specifically to one madhab but develop their interpretation of sharia from various scholars
3.Groups like ISIS definitely do not follow fiqh in the traditional sense, and view the majority of Muslims as illegitimate which makes them more like a specific sect, as madhabs are not even sects just different traditions of interpreting law within a given sect.

>> No.13259240
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13259240

I can't believe someone is trying to give dawah on 4chan of all places
holy shit I think now I've seen it all
good luck brother

I hope I die with hikmat, because I'm unsure of anything I believe in (iman at an all time low here)

>> No.13259283

Few questions.
1. When will most Muslims admit that Islam has something to do with terrorism? And the implementation of an Islamic state through violent means? So far, it's just reformists, Jihadists and some Islamists that do. Most conservatives and "moderates" deny this.
2. Western Muslim "moderates" say that they would not like the laws of the state to emulate Sharia. As soon as you dig deeper and ask whether they are opposed to the stoning of an adulterer woman, or the execution of a homosexual, etc in an Islamic state, where all the Sharia conditions are met, they freeze. Some conservative Muslims do have the courage to admit that in fact they do agree in those conditions. So their initial rejection of Sharia is predicated on the technicality of a 'host' country. Were it to become Islamic, most would welcome it. Is it possible to change this? Will secularism ever be the norm in Islam?
3. 11% of British Muslims sympathise with fighting the West. Over 51% believe that the teachings of Imams who preach violence against the West aren't far from mainstream Islam. 20% think Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Western society. 11% believe that those who produce depictions of their prophet should be attacked. 31% want their children to go to Islamic schools. 52% believe homosexuality should be illegal in Britain. 0% have tolerance for it. Over a third wouldn't report a family member if they had discovered plotting a violent act inspired by their religious belief.
I picked the conservative estimates here. The situation is worse for Muslims as a world-wide group. France is similar. Granted, American Muslims are better, but fewer in relation to the overall population and less segregated from non-muslims, so they got a better start in the US. Can we change this?
http://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Mulims-full-suite-data-plus-topline.pdf
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39147/bsa34_moral_issues_final.pdf
https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/political-and-social-views/pf_2017-06-26_muslimamericans-04new-06/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
4. Is reformation, or hardline fedora atheism, get them while their young a better tactic to erode Islam in the West?

>> No.13259398

>>13259283
Imam, or dawah guy, care to respond?

>> No.13260425

>>13259240
Inshallah

>>13259283
Depends on what you mean by terrorism. In the west it often means any military resistence to either America or Israel. If you mean killing women and children, Islam expressly forbids it, there is simply no way of reconciling it with Islam.

Conservative Islam is Islamist. Islamism does not connote violence or terrorism to Muslims, that is just how kuffar use of the term.

Any Muslim who describes himself as a "moderate Muslim" is a munafiq, it is like calling yourself a "moderate Christian". If you are against Sharia, you are an apostate unless it is in a specific context, e.g. many Muslims believe penal Sharia should only be used in Muslim states.

Secularism will never be the norm in Islam. Even the most open-minded who think Sunni and Shia should be tolerant and loving of each other still support Sharia.

Keep in mind that Sharia *does not apply to non-Muslims*. Christians in Qatar for example are allowed to drink and even have bars in designated zones.

>11% of British Muslims sympathise with fighting the West. Over 51% believe that the teachings of Imams who preach violence against the West aren't far from mainstream Islam.

Many Muslims sympathize with people in their homelands fighting against foreign invaders who destablize their states, bomb their children, and back Israel which has driven Muslims from their homes, which in the Qur'an is essentially an act of blood feud against all Muslims. This doesn't mean they support murderers shooting civilians in the UK

>11% believe that those who produce depictions of their prophet should be attacked.

When you denigrate him so viciously, this is extreme, but is it really so hard to understand? South Park depicted a Statue of Mary bleeding out of its anus with Catholics venerating that. You let atheists degrade your religion and society while ostracizing you for denigrating homosexuality. Muslims don't get pushed around so easily

>31% want their children to go to Islamic schools.

So? Many Catholics prefer Catholic schools

>52% believe homosexuality should be illegal in Britain. 0% have tolerance for it.

And?

>Over a third wouldn't report a family member if they had discovered plotting a violent act inspired by their religious belief.

I am sure it depends somewhat on the act

American Muslims don't have many of their own neighborhoods or schools so they completely assimilate quickly. That will change, Inshallah

>> No.13261062

>>13260425
>Islamism does not connote violence or terrorism to Muslims
Islamism is the political quest to impose any version of islam over society. Period. Kuffar, or not. Yes, it is not the same as Jihadism and doesn't imply violence. Never claimed that. Just made a distinction between reformist, moderate, conservative, islamist and jihadist muslims insofar as their acceptance of the fact that there are links to be drawn between scripture and doctrine, the first group being the only one willing to concede that.

I see that your answer in relation to whether we can change the attitudes of British muslims, as detailed in those stats, is no and that there is nothing wrong with them. At least you're honest under the veil of anonymity. Would you be prepared to make this statement publicly?

(Also, since your Islamist identity supersedes your intellectual identity, answering 4 and evaluating whether reformism, or fedora atheis/apostasy is a bigger threat in the West is out of the question for you.)

>> No.13261087

>>13261062
>Islamism is the political quest to impose any version of islam over society
All politics is imposed

I would answer as I answered you if asked in person.

Reform in Islam is bid'ah. Moderate Islam does not exist, it is a term used by non Muslims. Conservative in relation to Islam is nothing like how Western politics or Judaism uses it, it does not mean accepting of slow liberalization, it means staunchly opposed to liberalism and in favor of rolling it back

>> No.13261146

>>13261087
I mean publicly. Would you be up for an interview?

>> No.13261153

>>13261087
Not only is that not true, but it's missing the point. Which is that not all religions are political.

>> No.13261159

>>13261146
If it was by someone I trusted not to tamper with it or publish quotes mixed with paraphrase

>> No.13261169

>>13261153
>Not only is that not true,
It is true, all law is en*forced*

>Which is that not all religions are political.

Those which have been cowed by liberalism aren't, no, but this is because they changed by force

>> No.13261179

>>13261169
So shall Islam, Inshallah

>> No.13261203

>>13261179
Is has been tried extensively, secularists in Turkey and Iran banned the hijab for a whole, for example , but it has proven must less accepting of secularism than Christianity. I expect that Turkey will ultimately return to Sharia

>> No.13261205

>>13261159
That's more than reasonable. I would expect the same, especially on charged subjects that are dear to me. Verbatim, or nothing. Just like your scripture, heh. Let me see if I can turn this into something and we'll take it from there. Will you be lurking later in the day?

>> No.13261368

>>13257962
Why are the atheists being slaughtered then?

>> No.13261426

>>13250336
How come people are too stupid to get this? He knew where they were hiding. He still asked and had Adam indirectly admit they ate the fruit.

>> No.13261433

>>13250082
But gotta admit that sand nigger had a great level of thinking and convincing people. Still ruling billion people's fucked up mind.

>> No.13261437

>>13261426
perhaps its you who is stupid. look up The Jahwist

>> No.13261454

I believe in hermetic ideas

>> No.13261741

>>13261454
Like what?

>> No.13261782

>>13261433
It's not hard to convince horny Arab men when you have an army and promise them riches and sex slaves from your raids

>> No.13261785

>>13261454
Based anon, truly the best belief system

>> No.13261946

>>13261454
based

>> No.13261964

>>13249937
Because I have my faith in protestant christianity, and at this point - which happens to most people after a certain age - it is now a part of me, same as my arms or legs. I don't really reflect on it much anymore (also same as with my arms and legs).

Personally I don't mind Islam, it's not a problem to me. Most of what you hear about it is lies anyways, just like most of what you hear about christianity. A god fearing muslim is as little of a threat to me as I am to him.

>> No.13261978

>>13249937
> presents the most sensible idea of a God out of all the religions

Nope, Buddhism does: the Buddha said that Brahma is deluded into thinking he's a creator of the universe while just being a very high-level and long-living being.

>> No.13262581

>>13249937
>>13249959
Excellent bait.

>> No.13262592

>>13262581
They are not the same poster

>> No.13262649

>>13249937
because im buddhsit

>> No.13262759

>>13249937
I do not want to contradict myself when I do scientific research. I also think that human consciousness is an emergent phenomenon stemming from evolution of neural networks for surviving in varying environments. It is known. It is true, you see.

>> No.13263354

>>13262649
why though

>> No.13263370
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13263370

As a Muslim I find it sad we have not spawned a Islamic C.S. Lewis or Tolkien yet. It's sad to see how intellectually dead we've been for the last 120 years.

>> No.13263827

>>13249937
alright /lit/, if you have to choose between Jesus and Mohammad, who would you follow and why?

>> No.13264009

>>13263370
Those are children's books authors, not Christian philosophers. Anyway there are plenty of Muslim academics even in the west, Guénon and Roger Garaudy are tge most well known among kuffar, but Islamic thought is not an interest to most westerners today, especially if the Muslim is not white

>>13263827
False dichotomy

>> No.13264166
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13264166

Comments?

>> No.13264192

>>13250336
lmfao Christcucks eternally obliterated

>> No.13264195

>>13264009
Jesus or Muhammad, faggot?

>Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

>> No.13264208

>>13264166
can’t nobody read that shit nigga

>> No.13264245

>>13264195
Jesus never said that, it's an Hellenic Pauline teaching

>> No.13264267

>>13261978
That's not logical at all, why do all Buddhists just pedantically and uncritically repeat some asinine comment that they've read about whT he said and act like its fact? Buddha never explained why that Being would exist in the first place, nor why dependent origination exists, nor how its order is maintained absent some exterior organzing principle like God, nor a bunch of other stuff; it's not logical or sensible at all

>> No.13264365

>>13249959
FPBP.

>> No.13264781
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13264781

>> No.13264799 [DELETED] 
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13264799

>>13264267

>> No.13264821
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13264821

Islam is great for foreigners, but who would want this sort of violence here? Not me! America is waking up.

>> No.13264853

>>13264821
>thinking fundamentalist traditionalist terrorism targeting plutocratic hegemonic judeo-masonic fat cats and aggressive and degenerate liberal democracies is a bad thing
>disapproving of violence generally

1st point makes u bluepilled
2nd point makes u gay

>> No.13264861
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13264861

>>13264821
>being this much of a Boomer

>> No.13264865

>>13249937
>Islam
Literally Catholicism.

>> No.13264931

>>13264853
You do realise the overwhelming majority of the "plutocratic hegemonic judeo-masonic fat cats" are brownish men and ninja women in niqabs?
>>>/alexjones/

>> No.13265021

>>13250136
Isn't that the guy who literally believes the Quran predates Muhammad

>> No.13265241

>>13249937
because islam in practice is a fucking mysoginist, homophobic death cult that's near impossible to get out of once you join

>> No.13265370

>>13265241
How is it a "death cult"? Or misogynstic?