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/lit/ - Literature


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13152563 No.13152563 [Reply] [Original]

>Pic related was considered a battle between two intellectual titans, the equivalent of Chomsky and Foucault
>The likes of Peterson and Shapiro are considered public intellectuals.
>There hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years and the amount of good stuff being released is dwindling and the amount of YA schlock is increasing
>All the great writers are dying one by one and there is no one to carry on the literary tradition. There is not one good writer below the age of 45.
>Once Bloom dies there will be no one to carry on the canon
>The funding for libraries keeps being cut and they are now basically community centers and areas for neoliberal bougeois "activism" which amazon will soon replace
>Universities have been infiltrated hardcore by neoliberal ideology and they are basically trade schools now to turn people into bugmen/coding monkeys
What the fuck is wrong with the 21st century? Will art and critical thinking finnally die? Will things ever get better?

>> No.13152595

>>13152563
>Will things ever get better?
no

>> No.13152602

>>13152563
>Will things ever get better?
Probably, once China gets serious with their cultural output. Civilizations need competition, the quality of Western Art has been in a decline since the USSR ceased to be a credible threat and the decline has accelerated since they collapsed altogether.

>> No.13152609

>>13152563
>>There hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years
2666

>> No.13152628

>recent masterpieces
looks like someone has an irrational fear of postmodernism
>Bloom
meme
>libraries
just pirate it you fucking boomer
>infiltration of academia
not that academia is good (or has ever been good for that matter), but the belief that leftism has made it worse is a total meme
>everything else
yeah pretty much, we're slowly approaching an intellectual apocalypse

>> No.13152643

>>13152628
i didnt say leftism made academia worse read that meme arrow again

>> No.13152673
File: 921 KB, 1753x2480, FeB01F3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
13152673

>>13152602
>China gets serious with their cultural output
This would maybe be a possibility if their democratic revolution hadn't failed. Critical thinkers don't mix well with big brother states.

>> No.13152681

>>13152643
>neolib isn't left
go back to Chapo Trap House

>> No.13152693

>>13152563
>There hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years
only if you're an elitist who can't appreciate authors who write for the popular audience

>> No.13152741

>>13152681

>neoliberalism is leftism

The left has never worshiped laissez-faire markets. Read history instead of /pol/.

>> No.13152750

>>13152681
if you aren't a socialist you are not a real leftist
>>13152693
ok name them

>> No.13152755

>>13152741
>The left has never worshiped laissez-faire markets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

>> No.13152804
File: 1.00 MB, 360x152, 1517219457516.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
13152804

>>13152602
The insectoid Chinese are not, and have never been, capable of producing great literature or philosophy.

>> No.13152806

>>13152563
>intellectual
>jp
Kek

>> No.13152811

>>13152804
this

>> No.13152815

>>13152750
>muh no true Scotsman

>> No.13152842

>>13152628
>not that academia is good (or has ever been good for that matter), but the belief that leftism has made it worse is a total meme
The fact that entire disciplines exist for activist training says otherwise.

>> No.13152858

>>13152563
it was considered a battle of pop-philosophy giants, an entertainment spectacle but by no means a true debate

>> No.13152861

>>13152815
Cringe

>> No.13152889

>>13152750
>real leftist
Are there any of these even? In 2019 they are officially all dumb and angry poor people who actually have conservative values just anti-white

>> No.13152919

>>13152681
Neoliberalism is pretty much the contemponary definition of right wing in western countries.

>> No.13152934
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13152934

>>13152563
>There hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years
Disagree.

>> No.13152936

>>13152842
the fact that useless disciplines have always existed says otherwise
>>13152861
cringe
>>13152919
maybe in Europe, but in the US, the two major parties are neolib slightly progressive Democrats and classical lib conservative Republicans

>> No.13152957

>>13152750
Part of the issue people like you have is they don't understand that Masterpieces do not simply drop down out of the sky and become known as such. It takes the test of time. A true Masterpiece boils to the top of the pile in which the rest fell to obscurity.

You're asking the impossible because you don't want a good book as much as you want to prove your intellectual superiority (which is in question) and validate your counter-culture ideaology

>> No.13152965

>>13152936
>but in the US, the two major parties are neolib slightly progressive Democrats and classical lib conservative Republicans
Neolib is application of classic lib principles from 1970s onward. You don't call people classic lib these days, because we are not in classical era of liberalism anymore.

Also American democrats are not neolib, they are modern liberals. Modern liberalism is the polar opposite of neoliberalism within the genus of liberalism.

>> No.13152973

>>13152673
>cheating in online games
so now we can report all the chinese csgo hackers to the government and their lives will be ruined?

>> No.13153002

>>13152965
>Neolib is application of classic lib principles from 1970s onward.
hahahhahahahahahahhhhahhahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahaha
>Also American democrats are not neolib, they are modern liberals. Modern liberalism is the polar opposite of neoliberalism within the genus of liberalism.
oh wait you're serious. let me laugh even harder
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>> No.13153013

>>13152804
>>13152811
t. hasn't read Lao Tzu, Zhuangzi, Confucius, I Ching, etc.

>> No.13153128

>>13152957
>A true Masterpiece boils to the top of the pile in which the rest fell to obscurity.
Maybe back then the book had to be a masterpiece on its own merits, but now, all you need to be successful is a television or movie adaptation to further drive the sales of your book to become a "masterpiece".

>> No.13153176

My diary hasn't been published yet, desu

>> No.13153178

>>13152934
I read the first few pages, started talking about baseball so I put the book down. Nothing is this world is more banal than fucking baseball. Pleb teir sport, I don't care about it's mythical ethos in American culture, please anything but baseball

>> No.13153192

>>13153128
>you need to be successful is a television or movie adaptation to further drive the sales of your book to become a "masterpiece"
Ah, I see, you watched Game of Thrones and decided to pretend you read the books.

ASOIAF was considered a modern masterpiece a decade before HBO lit the pilot.

>> No.13153197

>>13153013
Neither did anyone else besides the chinese

>> No.13153211

>>13153128
>>13153192
this is like eighteen shit opinions crammed densely into two short posts

>> No.13153217

>>13153197
imagine if western philosphers stop being such entitled selfish idiots and actually listened to each other like the eastern philosphers did

maybe then our hemisphere wouldn't currently be in chaos like it does every other thousand or so years

>> No.13153223

>>13153211
I remember being an elitist twit who thought he understood all things fantasy too

Try reading once in a while and you might learn something. Do you think Game of Thones was collecting dust in 1999?

>> No.13153226

>>13153211
I didn't give an opinion.

>ASOIAF was considered a modern masterpiece a decade before HBO lit the pilot
This is fact. They use the damn blurbs of critics saying as such to sell the fucking books.

>> No.13153235

>>13153192
That's not the point I'm making. Harry Potter, ASOIAF, and Twilight were good enough to get these adaptations, but but would they be considered as masterpieces if they hadn't? If it weren't for the movies being gradually released over the course of a decade, wouldn't children who read the first few Harry Potter books grow out of it in their teen years due to lack of commercialization? My point is, people confuse commercialization with masterpiece status, and commercialization only serves to accelerate the success of the book to an artificial masterpiece status.

>> No.13153240

>>13153013
What is good about these books? Depending on your translation you get a whole different book everytime. Translating a eastern languages into an european languages is very difficult (impossible not to butcher the prosa) and the multiple meanings of alot of the metaphors get completely lost in translation.
i declare pseud

>> No.13153250 [DELETED] 

>>13152563
>There hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years
why dont u write one then instead of complaining on the internet faggot

>> No.13153258

>There hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years
why dont u write one then instead of complaining on the internet faggot. show everyone how its done

>> No.13153270

>>13153250
>>13153258
>he thought this post was worthwhile enough to "fix" and post again
Yikes

>> No.13153273

>>13153235
ASOIAFwas considered a masterpiece before HBO ever adapted it. Why is this hard for you to understand? It was a masterpiece for over 10 years before it ever was a TV show

>Harry Potter and Twilight are "masterpieces"
No one thinks. No one. That is utterly untrue and putting ASOIAF into that category is laughable. They aren't even in the same fucking stratosphere.

You seriously need to read the fucking books and stop judging ASOIAF off the show, because your assumptions about it are almost all entirely wrong. People gave a fuck about ASOIAF before it was show. It wasn't a pop culture phenonamon, people weren't writing articles about it or anything-- but it WAS still called a masterpiece.

Incoming is a review from 2000 to shut this anon up forever

>> No.13153278

https://web.archive.org/web/20020223190420/http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue190/interview.html

"[...] few would dispute that his most monumental achievement to date has been the groundbreaking A Song of Ice and Fire historical fantasy series. Initially conceived as a trilogy, A Song of Ice and Fire rapidly expanded during the writing process; it's currently projected as a series of six massive volumes. An excerpt from the first volume, A Game of Thrones, was published in 1996 as a stand-alone novella and won Martin his fourth Hugo; the second book, A Clash of Kings, was published in 1999 to huge acclaim. The third volume, A Song of Swords, came out this Halloween [2000] and promptly debuted at no. 12 on the New York Times bestseller list. Martin's magnum opus, a convoluted and intense series that leaps among many different character perspectives in describing the political clashes between noble families in a proto-medieval world, has gained his old writings new attention; currently, most of his pre-Song books are out of print... "

The interview goes on to discuss the intense fandom (this was 11 years before the television show)

>> No.13153281

>>13153273
The people who think asoiaf is a masterpiece are just as retarded as the people (that exist no matter how much you try to pretend they don't in a desperate attempt to lend credibility to your argument) who think Harry Potter and twilight are masterpieces.

>> No.13153290

>>13153281
The only who is retarded is people who think ASOIAF is anything at all like a series of Young Adult novels. It's actually kind of pathetic.

>> No.13153292

>>13153273
Are you really this naive? ASOIAF would've just stayed in it's own sphere of scifi/fantasy consumers and not reach the normie audience if it weren't for the show. Or, have you forgotten that the almost exclusive consumers of capeshit were nerds until it became popular by the MCU? And for the record, I've never watched GoT. I don't know why you have such a hardon over the books. Maybe you are projecting?
>No one thinks. No one.
Have you been living under a rock for the past decade?

>> No.13153293

>>13153281
You need to be 18 to post here bud

>> No.13153295
File: 54 KB, 421x640, 1385922-marshall.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
13153295

>>13152563
>equivalent of Chomsky and Foucault
>muh public intellectual
>hasnt been a masterpiece novel written within the past 50 years
>great writers are dying one by one
>Bloom
>funding for libraries keeps being cut
>Universities have been infiltrated
Lol. Get a load of this nihilist intellectual powerhouse.
All your modernist philosophers were THE EXACT SAME LARPERS as Zizek and Peterson, just far more articulate.
There hasn't been a master novel written in over 200 years. Maybe even in 500 years. This is literally a meaningless argument.
And their debate was hardly a "debate". More like Peterson saying some basic shit againts Marxism and Zizek agreeing and expanding Peterson's ideas with ZIzek's own greater understanding.
For a contrarian manic, Zizek was possibly the most honest he's ever bee in this "debate".

>> No.13153299

>>13153240
They make you look smart when you're reading them on your Apple in some hippie pub drinking 10$ coffee.

>> No.13153305

>>13153292
Can you read?
>It wasn't a pop culture phenonamon, people weren't writing articles about it or anything
I said that. I understand quite well the show is the reason why it's now "normie".

Which really is the crux of your argument. Normal people in every day life who aren't huge super lit nerds now know about ASOIAF,s so suddenly the previous two decades of irrefutable proof of critical consensus that it is a masterpiece goes out the window because twitter made some memes.

Just because teenage girls talk about the HBO show it is based on does not in anway change the fact ASOIAF is a monumental achievement of storytelling and you have to be an actual edgelorde contrarian retard to think other-wise.

In ten years all the normies will forget about the entire thing but ASOIAF will still be a masterpiece and you can wine and post and cry about it all you want but you can't retroactively change the past to make your argument work.

No one thinks Harry Potter and Twilight are masterpieces of any kind. ASOIAF was called such when BUSH was President.

Read the fucking books and stop acting like the HBO show is ASOIAF. Go to >>>/tv/ where your point won't be moot.

>> No.13153311

>>13153290
I really don't care if ASOIAF is a masterpiece or not. The success and fanbases of ASOIAF, HP and Twilight are all equally as vapid as the commercialization processes that created them.

>> No.13153315

Swathes of people agree with the OP and are probably going to produce good art in their lifetime.

>> No.13153317

>>13153311
>ASOIAF is a masterpiece
Yeah. No. Don't worry about it being a masterpiece.
At best, it's a competently written lore fest. A lot of the characters are copy pastes and the story goes to complete nowheresville after 3 books.

>> No.13153319

>>13153311
Which shouldn't matter. Hypothetically even if the best book in the world caused you literal cancer when you read it that would not detract from it being the best.

>> No.13153321

>>13153311
No anon. Your cabapility to enjoy anything beyond flexing how intelligent you are compared to all the "normies" is vapid.

If you think ASOIAF was some marketing baby that was coldly planted into pop-culture you're just fucking wrong, anon. It didn't work like that. I'm sorry reality does not validate how extra special unique you are and how extra dumb dumb silly everyone else is but not everything that is popular is bad and judging ASOIAF off of the show that took two decades to get green-lit as "commercializaed" is R E T A R D E D

ffs anon HBO TURNED DOWN THE FIRST PILOT

>> No.13153323

>>13153002
Is this some Kind of american way of saying "i have no arguments"?

>> No.13153327

>>13153317
>A lot of the characters are copy pastes and the story goes to complete nowheresville after 3 books.
I love LoTR

>> No.13153328

>>13153319
If you read to get cancer, then it's YOU who is the real cancer.
A good book reaps good fruit to the reader, not casts him in perpetual darkness and gives him justification for it. Then it's just propaganda.

>> No.13153331
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13153331

>>13153327
>LoTR
>characters are copy pastes
>story goes to complete nowheresville
Even the hashed down movies were better written that whatever GURM has put out.

>> No.13153332

>>13153328
Books don't owe anything to make people better nor does any other for of art or media that man makes. It need simply exist and affect people.

>> No.13153333

>>13152965
>Also American democrats are not neolib, they are modern liberals.
Stop posting you fucking moron

>> No.13153341

>>13153331
>characters are copy pastes
They just are. Tolkien lifted directly from Norse and Arthurian mythology.
>story goes to complete nowheresville
Aragorn gets a real ending but everyone gets a s u b v e r s i v e ending. The Scouring of the Shire partly inspired ASOIAF in the first place.

>> No.13153343

>>13153192
>>13153273
>>13153278
>>13153305
>>13153321
We found the one GRRM dick sucker, anons!

>> No.13153347

>>13153343
>no argument
(You)

>> No.13153353

>>13153341
>copying mythology is bad
this is literally the most brainlet take on /lit/

>> No.13153355

>>13153347
I'm sorry the finale to your favorite TV show was shit and that the author will more than likely die within the next decade and not finish the last two books, anon.

>> No.13153358

I dont think its fair to group ASoIaF in the same category as HP or twishit. It is a orders of magnitude better. But its too early to call it masterpiece since it isnt even finished. Also, the shitty writing of the show has dragged down peoples view of it.
I think it will be a masterpiece of the fantasy genre. Beyond that I dont think it is a masterpiece. No fantasy is, not even lotr.

As for OP, I think its fair to call peterson an intellectual. He is very accomplished outside of his meme internet fame. His "debate" with Zizek was interesting, I dont think anyone really won. As someone pointed out, it was mostly zizek agreeing with peterson and elaborating with more Marxist autism. I think only fanboys would take sides. I like both of them a lot.

>> No.13153368

>>13153323
not an argument

>> No.13153369

>>13153355
I think it is likely that Martin will complete the books. Even if he didnt, they would be published posthumously, a la Sanderson and Rkbert Jordan

>> No.13153386

>>13153369
cope

>> No.13153389

>>13153323
It is more like an obnoxious way of communicating that your point is so hilariously false that it belies arguing. Its like someone saying outright that the holocaust never happened. Everyone knows the 300,000 to 20 million jews died at the hands of evil, irredeemable Nazis.

>> No.13153393

>>13153386
I dont really care, i dont read fantasy anymore, its just an objective analysis. Nobody is letting all that money die with him. Nice r3dditor buzzwords btw.

>> No.13153405

>>13152628
Leftism has made everything worse. Actually that's inaccurate, lefties have made everything worse.

>> No.13153406

>>13153389
I'm getting the sneaking suspicion the "not an argument" post is primarily used by anons who are insecure of their own opinions and are unable to find an adequate rebuttal, yet immature enough to not ignore the post altogether.

>> No.13153411

>>13153369
Winds of Winter will likely get published.

Spring? I don't think it will ever come.

>>13153358
Alright, that's fair.
>the shitty writing of the show has dragged down peoples view of it.
this was really what I was trying to get at. ASOIAF is not the same thing as the HBO show

>> No.13153415

>>13153393
You seemed awfully passionate about a fantasy series you claim to no longer care about, anon :^)

>> No.13153418

>>13153355
I accepted the show's nose-dive in quality way back in Season 6 when Arya had a Mission Impossible sequence and got stabbed six times and lived.

You keep bringing up the show but I am far more invested in the books. I don't really know understand why the discussion is even happening. This isn't /tv/, and it's been no secret that the show went off-the-rails from the books seasons ago.

>> No.13153422

>>13153406
Not an argument

>> No.13153423

>>13153415
This is only my 3rd reply to you, you are confused.

>> No.13153427

>>13153415
that's not OP because I am

>> No.13153434

>>13153406
Even in the unlikely event that your sneaking suspicions are twice as accurate as your claims, nobody is putting any faith in them.

>> No.13153446
File: 185 KB, 1000x611, mbotf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
13153446

>tfw to intelligent for Gayme of Thrones

>> No.13153448

>>13153434
Not an argument

>> No.13153450

>>13153353
I never said it was bad.

Someone is awfully desparate to prove how well-read they are

>Look guys! I think all popular fantasy SUCKS! I'm so mature and smart. Am I a real Intellectual now? Please validate me with (You)s

>> No.13153456

>>13153448
>libcuck so BTFO that she resorts to stale pol memes
JUST

>> No.13153465

>>13153406
It's a term primarily employed by hypocrite redditor trash who think they're arguing 4chan style but it just makes them and their ideas disingenuous. I'll bet that person has made a thread with a pepe or a wojak accompanying a controversial (to 4chan) post.

>> No.13153583

>>13153333
How's that incorrect you fucking moron? The fucking definiton of modern liberalism revolves around American Democratic party, while the definition of neoliberalism revolves around Reagan, who was member of American Republican party.

>> No.13153585
File: 16 KB, 679x356, 1551297629931.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
13153585

>>13153299
essential.

>> No.13153662

>>13153450
You did imply that LoTR is in the same essence a plagiarized work as ASoIaF.
See, LotR is in essence a more basic work that tells a deeper story due to the fact that JRRT was genuine and put in work into his fiction.
ASOF seems deeper at first, but ends up as forced fanfiction because GURM is a hack. He's not even half as competent as JRRT. He literally draw out his story because his publisher told him to.
As for copy pasting, JRRT didn't copy paste, he was inspired by and his characters are not reflections of Beowulf let's say, but separate molds.
Meanwhile GURM literally copy pastes his own characters. Cersei is basically Catlyn Stark and Sansa become them too, Jon and Arya are more or less the same, most of the side characters are just bricks. There are some nice dynamics like Ned and Jamie being the similar in opposite ways, but in the end GURM just tried to carry too much load, while JRRT got off scotfree by using less for more and in way better style.

>> No.13153685

>>13152673
this shit will be the end of china , people are going to start rebelling against the government even more now

>> No.13153751

>>13152609
IJ

>> No.13153752
File: 265 KB, 680x680, 1558067228775.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
13153752

>>13153176

>> No.13153766

>>13153013
Oh my god!
The oldest culture and nation on earth that has existed for 8000 years has produced an handful of great writers!

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