Kannon, Guanyin, Avalokiteshvara

[Anonymous No.13116764]

Why is he/she so based? Why do this board hate on Mahayana again?

[Anonymous No.13116773]

Mahayana is peak Buddhism
Zen ruined everything.

[Anonymous No.13116816]

>>13116773
Thanks, I agree

[Anonymous No.13116888]

>>13116773
>Zen ruined everything.
Zen is based.

[Anonymous No.13116899]

>>13116888
stfu califag

[Anonymous No.13116903]

>>13116764
>Why do this board hate on Mahayana again?
It doesn't, it's just a few really partisan Theravadafags who make a lot of noise

[Anonymous No.13116913]

>letting contrarianism jade you against chan/zen

[Anonymous No.13116921]

>>13116764
depends what kind of Mahayana
some Mahayana is closer to early Buddhism than Theravada
some Mahayana is just quasi-Hinduism

[Anonymous No.13117076]

>>13116764
this is an english speaking board with a western cultural and philosophical heritage. if you want to steal this man's culture and larp as one of his enlightened elders, you are free to do so because the west has given you that right. you racist fascist colonizing appropriating piece of shit pseud.

[Anonymous No.13117090]

>>13117076
Most of the fundamentals in Mahayana Buddhism were actually established by Indians, before it was imported into China. Tibetian, Chinese and Japanese Buddhism are all heavily based on Indian Mahayana scriptures; and Indians are genetically closer to Europeans than the Chinese so actually we have every right to reclaim the familial heritage of our distant cousins over Wangwang Chingchong

[Anonymous No.13117199]

>>13117076
>it's racist to look up to philosophers from another culture

[Anonymous No.13117219]

>>13117199
take that > out of there. it is.

>>13117090
>"i made this"
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Anonymous No.13117227]

>>13117219
How? Me, a white man, consulting the works of Chinese/Japanese/Indian writers for guidance sounds to me like the exact opposite of racism. Restricting myself to white writers would be racist.

[Anonymous No.13117236]

>>13116764
>Why do this board hate on Mahayana again?
because it's full of dumb Hindoo convert types, idiot Pajeets, and general shitposters is why.

[Anonymous No.13117237]

>>13116764
>why this board hate on Fake Buddha Quotes
because your scriptures are fabrications that diluted the pure teachings

>>13116773
zen is a mahayana offshoot, the whole branch of mahayana is heretical garbage and should anyone who promotes it is a liar and deceiver, 10,000 painful rebirths follow them

[Anonymous No.13117242]

>>13117227
>Restricting myself to white writers would be racist.
no, it would be perfectly normal.

[Anonymous No.13117247]

>>13117242
"normality" is irrelevant
normal stuff can be racist

[Anonymous No.13117249]

>>13117237
go away with your shitty 19th century Protestant Boodhism.

[Anonymous No.13117251]

>>13117219
claiming a foreign philosophy to be ethnically 'yours' with the "We wuz indo-europeans/Hyperboreans n shieeet" thing is obviously racism
but there is absolutely nothing wrong with exploring Eastern philosophical and religious traditions, especially Universalist ones like Buddhism

[Anonymous No.13117252]

>>13117242
This, hell don't even read philosophy outside your ethnicity to not even risk being a prejudiced facsist

[Anonymous No.13117258]

>>13117249
>protestant buddhism
That's Mahayana, it's heterodox and comes much later than traditional buddhism.
They invented things like the bodhisatva ideal which is a lie and anyone who subscribes to it is getting 10,000+ hellish rebirths

[Anonymous No.13117261]

>>13117249
the claim that Buddhism is necessarily metaphysical and monistic was popularized by, you guessed it - 19th century Anglos, particularly Theosophists and other perennialists who loved reducing the Eastern religions to mere cultural representations of their Western neoplatonist monism, and with the help of the Traditionalists - "the Eternal tradition."

[Anonymous No.13117271]

>>13117237
you retards couldn't tell what buddhism is if it came out your ass, the buddhism all you twats refer to comes from the Hīnayāna which is the shitty retarded version of the original doctrines compared with the Mahāyāna which stays way truer to the doctrines. You all are fascinated with a buddhism that is most likely the farthest and least familiar with any eastern doctrines aka not buddhism but some shit Westerners love to praise. As a student studying Traditionalism but more so the orientals i can't help but cringe everytime I see you discuss "Buddhism" its more so some-shit the Westerners took in and adapted to their imagination. You guys read some chart and become a Eastern monk and maybe even understand Buddhism itself? gtfo, read guenon's first book so you can get rid of your western prejudices

[Anonymous No.13117273]

>>13117247
t. mestizo mischling.

[Anonymous No.13117280]

>>13117271
>the most historically accurate scriptures are BAD
>these new, obviously forged scriptures that came hundreds of years later are GOOD
mahayana faggots really want to visit the hell realms

[Anonymous No.13117284]

>>13117258
no, it's not. you need to read more, m8. you need to read more scriptures - and not just in Pali, check out the work on comparing Agamas to Nikayas, for example. and check out the historiography of Theravada. Don't fall for the Therevada=ancient and better meme.

[Anonymous No.13117285]

How do I start understanding the history of Buddhism and all of the various sects and scriptures and differences/relationships between them?

[Anonymous No.13117286]

>>13117237
>>13117258
There is wisdom to be found in both Mahayana and Zen, anon, even if a lot of it was total revisionism of the early teachings.
Nagarjuna and early Madhyamaka, for instance, I would say had a stronger grasp on the 'pure' teaching than any sects of their day or of ours for that matter.

[Anonymous No.13117288]

>>13117261
buddhism was anti-dualistic and hence monistic since forever you dumbfuck
nirvana is the One, ineffable, everlasting, non-dualistic reality underneath and piercing through samsara which is the veil of multiplicity and illusion
10,000 years of hell realms are in your future

[Anonymous No.13117289]

>>13117285
>forged
Gethin's Foundations of Buddhism or Harvey's Introduction to Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.13117293]

>>13117271
stale pasta

[Anonymous No.13117297]

>>13117285
A History of Buddhist Philosophy: Continuities and Discontinuities by David Kalupahana
also Buddhist India by TW Rhys Davids if you're curious about the inception of Buddhism

[Anonymous No.13117298]

>>13117284
>don't fall for the orthodox buddhism, go with the modern versions full of gibberish and obviously forged scriptures
t. retard

>>13117286
mixing lies with truth is the work of devils
stop promoting obvious heresies and grow a pair of balls you effeminate twink

[Anonymous No.13117306]

>>13117288
lol what school do you prescribe to then if you don't like Mahayana or Zen?

[Anonymous No.13117315]

>>13117298
>obviously forged
Lord Buddha never wrote a thing. All your scriptures must be forged too, since they were only written down centuries later.

[Anonymous No.13117316]

May your sun be blown out just like a candle
May your seas burn like tar
May your sky be rolled up like a scroll
May your blue moon drip with blood

[Anonymous No.13117322]

>>13117306
theravada, I'm in cambodia and I've been to thailand, they have legit buddhism here.
Not that diluted chinese/japanese garbage.

[Anonymous No.13117326]

>>13117261
>b-b-but it was all the fault of m-muh theosophists and traditionalists!!!
wrong

A separate stance has been taken by Polish scholar Stanislaw Schayer, who argued in the 1930s that the Nikayas preserve elements of an archaic form of Buddhism which is close to Brahmanical beliefs,[8][20][85][86] and survived in the Mahayana tradition.[87][88] As noted by Alexander Wynne, Schayer drew on passages "in which "consciousness" (viññana) seems to be the ultimate reality or substratum (e.g. A I.10), as well as the Saddhatu Sutra, which is not found in any canonical source but is cited in other Buddhist texts."[89] According to Schayer, contrary to popular opinion, the Theravada and Mahayana traditions may be "divergent, but equally reliable records of a pre-canonical Buddhism which is now lost forever."[87] The Mahayana tradition may have preserved a very old, "pre-Canonical" tradition, which was largely, but not completely, left out of the Theravada-canon.[88] Schayer searched in the early texts for ideas that contradict the dominant doctrinal positions of the early canon. According to Schayer, these ideas have
... been transmitted by a tradition old enough and considered to be authoritative by the compilers of the Canon. The last conclusion follows of itself: these texts representing ideas and doctrines contradictory to the generally admitted canonical viewpoint are survivals of older, precanonical Buddhism.[90][note 14]

Regamy has identified four points which are central to Schayer's reconstruction of precanonical Buddhism:[91]

The Buddha was considered as an extraordinary being, in whom ultimate reality was embodied, and who was an incarnation of the mythical figure of the tathagata;
The Buddha's disciples were attracted to his spiritual charisma and supernatural authority;
Nirvana was conceived as the attainment of immortality, and the gaining of a deathless sphere from which there would be no falling back. This nirvana, as a transmundane reality or state, is incarnated in the person of the Buddha;
Nirvana can be reached because it already dwells as the inmost "consciousness" of the human being. It is a consciousness which is not subject to birth and death.
Accordin to Ray, Schayer has shown a second doctrinal position alongside that of the more dominant tradition, one likely to be of at least equivalent, if not of greater, antiquity.[92]

[Anonymous No.13117334]

>>13117315
on the reliability and historical origin of the Pali Canon compared to the Mahayana sutras + later texts:
>The Early Buddhist Texts being preserved orally were likely edited for ease of oral memorization, however, not a single contradiction of doctrine or substance can be found throughout the entire Pali Canon. The differences are only in style, not of substance.
>Early Buddhist Texts (Pali Canon) match the descriptions of India given by the Jain and Brahmanical texts from the same period in which the Buddha was teaching.
>Later texts such as the Mahayana sutras portray the Buddha "predicting" King Asoka, the EBTs never do anything of the sort.
>It is not like the EBTs shied away from talking of politics and leaders: they mention the kings of Magadha regularly, but never even allude to Asoka or even Candagutta.
>The earliest mention of Candagutta is in the Milindapanha.
>Later Buddhist sources mention Asoka loads of times (Dipavamsa, Mahavamsa, Samantapasadika, Asokavadana)
>There is no literary or archaeological evidence that contradicts the picture of India (regarding towns, villages, politics, division) provided in the EBTs. If the texts were composed after the Buddha's time, one would expect errors in the descriptions of the political situation (as is the case regularly in non-EBT Buddhist literature, ex: the depiction of Sakya as a kingdom, and exaggeration of city sizes).
>The socio-economic and political conditions of the EBTs fit well with the expected conditions of the era of Early Buddhism (before Candagutta and Asoka, after the early Upanishads)
>It is universally agreed upon by historians that writing was unknown in India until at least Candagutta's reign, and most likely until Asoka's reign 100+ years after the Buddha's death - the EBTs never mention writing, while the Mahayana sutras frequently mention writing (and some may argue, even owe their existence to writing)
>The EBTs mention no sectarian schisms, sectarianism is only mentioned in post-Asokan literature (ex: the Kattavatthu). This points to the EBTs being largely finalized before Asoka.
>There is a wide variety of ancient Indian Buddhist schools (Mahavihara, Dharmaguptaka, Mahasanghika, Mahisaka, Mulasarvastivada, Sarvastivada) that have SEPARATELY preserved the EBTs - yet all these preserved texts are shown to be completely identical in doctrine irrespective of transmission lineage. - This shows a very stark contrast to non-EBT texts.
>The Sarvastivada and Theravada lineages separated around the time of the Asokan missionary activities - they transmitted the Majjhima Nikaya/the Madhyama Agama separately for almost 2300 years, plus an initial period of oral transmission that lasted several centuries - and the doctrinal content is still identical. - Such incredible correspondence does not exist for non-EBT texts
>Oral transmission was very reliable in India, since for example, the Vedic texts were transmitted orally for over 2000 years.

[Anonymous No.13117337]

>>13117326
Edward Conze argued that nirvana was a kind of Absolute. He mentions ideas like the "person" (pudgala), the assumption of an eternal "consciousness" in the Saddhatu sutra, the identification of the Absolute, of Nirvana, with an "invisible infinite consciousness, which shines everywhere" in Digha Nikaya XI 85, and "traces of a belief in consciousness as the nonimpermanent centre of the personality which constitutes an absolute element in this contingent world" as pointing to this.[177]

Influenced by Schayer, M. Falk argues that the early Buddhist view of nirvana is that it is an "abode" or "place" of prajña, which is gained by the enlightened.[note 28][92][note 29] This nirvanic element, as an "essence" or pure consciousness, is immanent within samsara. The three bodies are concentric realities, which are stripped away or abandoned, leaving only the nirodhakaya of the liberated person.[179][note 30] A similar view is also defended by C. Lindtner, who argues that in precanonical Buddhism Nirvana is:
... a place one can actually go to. It is called nirvanadhatu, has no border-signs (animitta), is localized somewhere beyond the other six dhatus (beginning with earth and ending with vijñana) but is closest to akasa and vijñana. One cannot visualize it, it is anidarsana, but it provides one with firm ground under one’s feet, it is dhruva; once there one will not slip back, it is acyutapada. As opposed to this world, it is a pleasant place to be in, it is sukha, things work well.[8][note 31]

According to Lindtner, Canonical Buddhism was a reaction to this view, but also against the absolutist tendencies in Jainism and the Upanisads. Nirvana came to be seen as a state of mind, instead of a concrete place.[8] Elements of this precanonical Buddhism may have survived the canonisation, and its subsequent filtering out of ideas, and re-appeared in Mahayana Buddhism.[8][85] According to Lindtner, the existence of multiple, and contradicting ideas, is also reflected in the works of Nagarjuna, who tried to harmonize these different ideas. According to Lindtner, this lead him to taking a "paradoxical" stance, for instance regarding nirvana, rejecting any positive description.[8]

[Anonymous No.13117341]

>>13117322
>theravada, I'm in cambodia and I've been to thailand, they have legit buddhism here.
yes, Weizza, Tantric sorcery and mafia tattoos. Very pure indeed. Fuckwad.

[Anonymous No.13117349]

>>13117322
how do you reconcile all the inconsistencies in Theravadin teachings with the Pali Canon, such as mind-moments, pluralism...etc found in Abhidhamma and the Commentaries?
Not to shit on Theravada, since it is undoubtedly the closest living tradition to original Buddhism

[Anonymous No.13117355]

>>13117349
they also can't explain away the Antarabhava, mentioned in their own suttas.

[Anonymous No.13117377]

>>13117349
theravada all comes from pali canon not from Fake Buddha Quotes in the worthless mahayana forged scriptures

[Anonymous No.13117389]

>>13117377
>theravada all comes from pali canon
what is Visuddhimagga?
what is contemporary Theravada derived from?
study more dude

[Anonymous No.13117400]

>>13117389
>Visuddhimagga
thats just commentaries from sri lanka, what are you confused about? No one goes around saying it's SCRIPTURE and dogmatic, like mahayana do with their fake buddha quotes.

[Anonymous No.13117413]

>>13117400
>confused
you must come from Sri Lanka too, with your poor reading comprehension.
Theravada does not "all come from the Pali canon" since those commentaries are part of it - and they are non-canonical.
As to contemporary meditation, definitely non-canonical. But you knew that already, you just don't want to admit it.

[Anonymous No.13117421]

>>13117326
>"consciousness" (viññana) seems to be the ultimate reality or substratum
Consciousness is taught to be dependently arisen and therefore empty - not fundamental:
>“….cakkhuñcāvuso, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso”
>‘cakkhuñcāvuso, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ’
>‘Dependent on eye and forms arises eye-consciousness.’
>‘tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso’
>‘The concurrence of the three is contact.’
- MN 18
Consciousness arises dependent on the arising of a sense-sphere and form
Using eye-consciousness (but also applies to ear-consciousness, taste-consciousness, thought-consciousness...etc):
>“Dvayaṁ bhikkhave paṭicca viññāṇaṁ sambhoti.”
>‘Monks, depending on a dyad consciousness arises.’
> “Kathañca
bhikkhave dvayaṁ paṭicca viññāṇaṁ sambhoti.”
>‘How, monks,
does consciousness arise depending on a dyad?’
>“Cakkhuñca
paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ.”
>‘Depending on eye
and forms arises eye consciousness.’
>“Cakkhuṁ aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvī,
rūpā anicca vipariṇāmino aññathābhāvino.”
>‘Eye is impermanent, changing and turning otherwise.
>Forms are impermanent, changing and turning otherwise.’
>“Itthetaṁ dvayaṁ calañceva vayañca aniccaṁ vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī.”
>‘Thus this dyad is unstable, liable to pass away, impermanent changing and turning otherwise.’
>“Cakkhuviññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī.”
>‘Eye consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.’
>“Yopi hetu yopi paccayo cakkhuviññāṇassa uppādāya…….”
>‘Whatever condition there is for the arising of eye-consciousness,
that too is impermanent.’
- Dvayaṁ’ Sutta

[Anonymous No.13117428]

You guys sure bicker a lot for Buddhists

[Anonymous No.13117431]

>>13117377
Theravadin tradition is heavily based in the Abhidhamma, commentaries, Visuddhimagga...etc.
Theravada has its fair share of revisions - not nearly as much as modern Mahayana or Vajrayana - but revisions nonetheless.
I only wish Theravada actually was solely based off of the Pali Canon.

[Anonymous No.13117439]

>>13117413
not everyone accepts those commentaries, dumb brainlet
they aren't dogmatic or scripture, they are just tools some teachers may or may not use
Meanwhile the whole mahayana edifice is built on fake buddha quotes and "commentaries" taken as dogmatic scripture

[Anonymous No.13117450]

>>13117439
>not everyone accepts those commentaries, dumb brainlet
this is true, you will find monks who adhere strictly to the Pali Canon and are aware of the shortcomings of the commentarial literature
they are hard to find though

[Anonymous No.13117469]

>>13117421
Wow I'm sure you know more than a professional scholar of Buddhism who published papers on it in peer-veiwed journals, you sure btfo him and proved him wrong with your two quotes which probably aren't even the ones he was referring to! you fucking clown

[Anonymous No.13117479]

>>13117450
>hard to find
no they aren't they're everywhere. I talk to monks a lot and most stick strictly to reciting/chanting and discussing pali scriptures, they don't give a hoot about commentaries or later theoretics

meanwhile the bulk of the mahayana corpus is garbage fake buddha quotes, it's a heterodox protestantism branch, no denying it, and it lead to total goofball schools like the Amida saviour sects and other nonsense in japan and china

[Anonymous No.13117485]

>>13117469
>peer-review
>humanities/social sciences
you haven't heard about the dog park huh?
peer-review is meaningless in garbage fields

[Anonymous No.13117492]

>>13117326
there is also this Sutta where the Buddha comments on the physical death of one of his foremost followers who reached Arahantship before he died:
>Abhedi kāyo nirodhi saññā
>vedanā sãtibhavi§su sabbā
>våpasami§su sa§khārā
>viññāõa§ atthamagamā
>Body broke up
>Perceptions ceased
>All feelings cooled off
>Preparations calmed down
>Consciousness came to an end
-Ud. p. 93

There is also this:
>Khãõa§ purāõa§ nava§ natthi sambhava§
>virattacittā āyatike bhavasmi§
>te khãõabãjā avirūëhicchandā
>nibbanti dhãrā yathāyampadãpo
>'Khãna§ purāna§' - Whatever past karma there was, all that is exhausted,
>'nava§ natthi sambhava§' – there is no new karma to bring about any existence,
>'virattacittā āyatike bhavasmi§' – detached in mind as regards future existence,
>'te khãõabãjā avirūëhicchandā'- they whose seed (of consciousness) is destroyed and desire does not sprout forth,
>'nibbanti dhãrā yathāyampadãpo' those wise ones get extinguished like this lamp.
- Ratana Sutta
It is totally fair to argue that there are Mahayana doctrines which teach monism, metaphysics, fundamental consciousness...etc, but the point isn't that those teachings don't exist - it is that Buddhism does not necessarily have to be monistic - and that such a teaching is absent in the Pali Canon

[Anonymous No.13117499]

>>13117469
Not to be that guy but this is a weak appeal to authority.
If you really believe and understand that Polish scholar's interpretation, you're free to provide textual citations, such as the one he was referring to, yourself.

[Anonymous No.13117509]

>all these doughy white boys unironically using foreign words to describe their personal teleology, or worse, pseud fashion accessory false convictions

[Anonymous No.13117519]

>>13117509
im not white im a nigger
keep seething, nihilist homo

[Anonymous No.13117522]

>>13116888
trips dont lie

[Anonymous No.13117556]

>>13117479
>no they aren't they're everywhere. I talk to monks a lot and most stick strictly to reciting/chanting and discussing pali scriptures, they don't give a hoot about commentaries or later theoretics
well on their way to enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.13117557]

>>13116899
>>13117280
>>13117288
>>13117298
>>13117428
>>13117439
>>13117469
>>13117519
>“Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?
>“It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of goodwill.
>“A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people.”
AN 5:198


“Those who discuss
when angered, dogmatic, arrogant,
following what's not the noble ones' way,
seeking to expose each other's faults,
delight in each other's misspoken word,
slip, stumble, defeat.
Noble ones
don't speak in that way.

If wise people, knowing the right time,
want to speak,
then, words connected with justice,
following the ways of the noble ones:
That's what the enlightened ones speak,
without anger or arrogance,
with a mind not boiling over,
without vehemence, without spite.
Without envy
they speak from right knowledge.
They would delight in what's well-said
and not disparage what's not.
They don't study to find fault,
don't grasp at little mistakes.
don't put down, don't crush,
don't speak random words.

For the purpose of knowledge,
for the purpose of [inspiring] clear confidence,
counsel that's true:
That's how noble ones give counsel,
That's the noble ones' counsel.
Knowing this, the wise
should give counsel without arrogance."
- AN 3.67

[Anonymous No.13117569]

>>13117479
if you know of any Pali Canon-only monks that give Dhamma talks that can be found online, it would be much appreciated if you could link them

[Anonymous No.13117570]

>>13117557
wtf is this cuck libshit? I thought Buddhism was based... oh well, Sufism here I come!

[Anonymous No.13117584]

>>13117570
lol based

[Anonymous No.13119190]

>>13117519
Kek