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/lit/ - Literature

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12977912 No.12977912 [Reply] [Original]

I didn't get it.

>> No.12977950

>>12977912
achilles was the bad guy

>> No.12978030

>>12977912
It's okay. You'll like it more as your taste matures. Usually, The Odyssey is everyone's favorite until at least their mid-20's.

>> No.12978034

>>12978030
>It’s okay
Yeah it’s just arguably the greatest epic poem of all time, indisputably top 3, but it’s just okay. Real high IQ post.

>> No.12978052

>>12978034
pretty sure he was putting OP at ease, not calling the iliad okay

>> No.12978054

>>12978034
reading comprehension

>> No.12978061 [DELETED] 

>>12978034
also. arguably? top 3?
are you joking?

>> No.12978082

>>12978052
Could be, but that’s not what it says. If he meant to do that he should’ve said *That’s* okay. In a conversation about the merit of something specific *It’s okay* will naturally be taken to mean the merit of the thing itself is “okay”.
>>12978054
lmao

>> No.12978087

>>12978082
autism

>> No.12978088

>>12978082
Based

>> No.12978097

>>12978082
it's entirely idiomatic, isn't it? was obvious to me.

>> No.12978113

>>12978097
No, there’s a subtle difference which I took the trouble to explain. If he meant it another way that’s fine, but it’s not how he wrote it.

>> No.12978114

>>12978052
>>12978034
No I was saying the Iliad is ok. It's 2000+ years old, how good could it be? I like richer plot and I don't want to read about white men anymore. Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon and The Bluest Eye were much better. I think people only pretend to like the Iliad because they're supposed to

>> No.12978173 [DELETED] 

>>12978113
it's not ungrammatical to say IT'S okay PERIOD then talk about something else. not in english.

>>12978114
very funny

>> No.12978181

>>12978113
that doesn't make it not idiomatic.

>>12978114
very funny

>> No.12978240

>>12977912
It's next on my list. I started it five years back and couldn't do it. In praparation for this go, I am reading Edith Hamilton's Mythology, which gives an overview of the causes of the Trojan War and what actually took place. It also analyses the characters. So at least I won't be going in blind when I read it. I also bought the Lattimore translation of the Iliad and the Odyssey, hearing that it was the superior translation.

>> No.12978266

>>12978181
>that doesn't make it not idiomatic.
Wow so true, and it’s also in English. You’re trying very hard to have a point and win an argument online over something not only trivial but also unrelated to you, because you’re a tryhard.
It being an idiom is literally irrelevant. Idioms can be used imprecisely, like here. Go do something worthwhile, like take an online grammar course.

>> No.12978272

>>12978240
honestly, read a prose translation. i had no trouble at all reading graves' iliad when i was a teenager & i never read hamilton's book

>> No.12978283

>>12978266
i mean idiomatic as in natural to native speakers, not consisting of an idiom - it's not an idiom.
>because you’re a tryhard
i'm sorry your opinion means very little to me

>> No.12978298

>>12977912
It i literally a book about orbiter fighting for a waifu

>> No.12978300

>>12978283
>i mean idiomatic as in natural to native speakers, not consisting of an idiom - it's not an idiom.
Wow... Here’s one of the definitions of idiom
>the dialect of a people or part of a country
Here’s what you think idiom doesn’t mean
>natural to native speakers

Will you stop now? Or do you insist on continuing to act like you know what you’re talking about when you know fuck all?

>> No.12978309
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12978309

>>12978300

>> No.12978329

Why does Homer feel the need to give us a mini backstory about literally everyone killed?

>> No.12978336

>>12978329
to give you your money's worth and create smaller complete stories when you're listening to his performance of it.

>> No.12978346

>>12978309
What in the fuck is happening?
1 You said it was idiomatic. I agreed, that’s obvious. But its being an idiom is irrelevant.
2 You said it’s not an idiom. Idiomatic doesn’t mean idiom.
3 I supplied you with a definition of idiom that matches your definition of idiomatic.
4 You now ingeniously respond with a definition of idiomatic that matches the one I gave you of idiom, randomly proving my own point and not making a single one yourself.
You are so unbelievably fucking dumb.

>> No.12978423

>>12978346
i said 'it's entirely idiomatic, isn't it?'
and you said 'no'

>> No.12978441

>>12978423
Correct, it’s not entirely idiomatic, though it does indeed involve an idiom. Stop posting.

>> No.12978480

>>12978441
sort of takes away from your first point doesn't it

>> No.12978515

>>12978480
What point do you imagine that is? Did you really think this wasn’t an ambiguous waste of a post?

>> No.12978524

>>12978515
>1 You said it was idiomatic. I agreed, that’s obvious. But its being an idiom is irrelevant.

>> No.12978529

>>12978480
>>12978423
>>12978346
>>12978441
Can you Anons just go sperg somewhere else?

>> No.12978530

>>12977912
The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.

The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.

Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.

Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.

Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.

Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."

And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.

Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.

A few hundred years later, Socrates would invoke Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”

But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.

>> No.12978534

>>12978530
don't

>> No.12978540

>>12978530
And of course Socrates mentored Plato who mentored Aristotle who mentored Copernicus/Newton/Galileo, who gave birth to Western Science and Technology and Freedom, all via the Homeric Honor of Achilles.

>> No.12978551

>>12978524
Ok? Is it that you’re now failing to comprehend that “entirely” is a word that has a meaning?
No, the issue is not entirely idiomatic. Yes, the issue involves an idiom. No, it’s not relevant that the issue involves an idiom, because, as I’ve already said, idioms can be used imprecisely. Idioms still have to be used coherently.
Any other semantics you’d like to try and fail to nitpick?

>> No.12978596

Why did all of Greece under Agamemnon invade Troy for one girl? Why did the families of these men support them in doing so, even the women? Was this woman that beautiful? Yes, it is that in part. There is the saying of the woman who launched a thousand ships. But in going after this woman and the cowardly Paris who stole her, the men were going to reclaim society. It was not that the men were horny and all marveled the beauty of this woman. It was that these men upheld their values so much, that they wouldn’t even let this woman, who had beauty blessed by a “goddess” get away with doing something so heinous as breaking a wedding vow and running away with another man to another country.

And we see this again when Achilles refuses to fight. The Achaens had vows that a certain maiden, as a spoil of war would go to Achilles. But King Agamemnon broke this, and thus Achilles refused to bend to his will and retreated to his own tent. This is showing a people who held on to honor, respect, justice, even at the cost of defying the most beautiful woman in the world (and the mischievous deities that supported her) as well as kings. In both cases what was theirs was reclaimed.

>> No.12978623

>>12978530
But was it honourable of Achilles to let countless men die by virtue of his absence?

>> No.12978633

>>12978551
just thought it was funny how quickly you disagreed with yourself. and grammarians (henry fowler, for instance) tend to say 'it's completely idiomatic' when referring to ungrammatical things like 'it's me' (as opposed to 'it is i').
>Idioms still have to be used coherently.
it was coherent. listen, there is no academie francais for england; no simple, correct english, but only innumerable precedents of arguable validity.

>> No.12978641

>>12978633
>just thought it was funny how quickly you disagreed with yourself.
Literally never happened, all that’s happened is you’ve consistently failed to grasp not only simple grammar, but common fucking sense lmfao, I’ve broken it down for you too many times and all you can come back with is verbose ambiguities, shut the fuck up

>> No.12978654

>>12978623
Their death is on Agamemnon and his hubris

>> No.12978666

>>12978641
>You said it was idiomatic. I agreed
>i said 'it's entirely idiomatic, isn't it?' and you said 'no'
>Correct
that is funny

>> No.12978681

incredible thread

>> No.12978683

>>12978666
Yes... we’ve been THROUGH this... “Entirely” is a word with meaning. How the fuck do you not get that? Is it entirely idiomatic? No. Never said it was. Does it involve an idiom? Yes. Does that mean it’s entirely idiomatic? No. Where the fuck is the source of your confusion here? God I wish we had eugenics.

>> No.12978725 [DELETED] 

>>12978683
i wanted to diffuse the situation:
>there is no academie francais for england; no simple, correct english, but only innumerable precedents of arguable validity.

>> No.12978732

>>12978683
i wanted to defuse the situation:
>there is no academie francais for england; no simple, correct english, but only innumerable precedents of arguable validity.

>> No.12980353

bump

>> No.12980593

>I don't get it

You can check out a copy from your local library, or pick up a copy for cheap from your local used bookstore.

>> No.12980606

the iliad discussion on the discord is right now lol

>> No.12980787

>>12980606
>discord
You are worse than reddit

>> No.12980816

>>12980787
well this thread is pretty bad

>> No.12980834

>>12978732
brainlet

>> No.12980857

>>12977912
DUDE, WAR LMAO

>> No.12981120

>>12980857
Yikes!

>> No.12981226

>>12977912

Homer thinks that rage and honor are the only virtues.

You don't get it because you aren't totally corrupted by toxic masculinities.

>> No.12981270

>>12977912
You have to grow up a little kiddo.

>> No.12981286
File: 115 KB, 480x720, zeus-2786077_960_720.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12981286

>>12977912
Great book, but what I really don't get is why Zeus orchestrated so much suffering. I understand that the Greek gods are supposed to reflect everything in life including cruelty and chaos, but Zeus acted like an absolute madman.

>> No.12981447

>>12981286
You can only achieve glory in war. For men to demonstrate their arete they have to battle other men and kill them.
The Greeks were always at war because it's a core part of who they were.

>> No.12981516

>>12981447
Sure, but when the landscape was covered in tidal waves of blood, corpses, and fire, and the gods were beating the shit out of each other, Zeus was sitting on his throne in Mount Olympus gleefully watching the chaos unfold. He seems to delight in their suffering, even when he seems to show remorse he writes the event off as destined by the Fates. He almost seems like a kid with a magnifying glass tormenting an anthill.

I suppose I'm curious as to how much of the divine intervention in the story was due to quarrels between gods which maybe were not fully explained or I overlooked them, like maybe this whole thing was due to petty disagreements over who the gods favored and just escalated out of control.

>> No.12981519

>>12978082
this is why i browse lit.

>> No.12981552

>>12981516
>>12981286
Zeus is the king of gods and men, there's no point in questioning him because he is the metaphysical embodiment of Chad
also, the gods are the ultimate moods which inhabit men, Paris had godlike aphroditic power, Diomedes had the godlike war skill of Athena, this is the essence of heroism, history is driven by great (godlike) men

>> No.12981613

>>12978082
>>12978034
>just replace what he says about fedoras with the iliad and thats you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVOgPzXm7g

>> No.12981636

don't worry, no one else gets it. there's nothing to get, it's just easy-to-digest genre fiction

>> No.12981778

>>12978034
This is how I know most people dont read the books they post about.

>> No.12982648

>>12981636
Okay buddy

>> No.12983127

>>12981516
when the god's were imitating the immortals' war, zeus was amused by it (because it is amusing). compared to hera and athene zeus was quite merciful in the story

>> No.12983180

>>12983127
even fucking Ares was more chill than Hera and Athene

>> No.12983216

>>12983127
*the mortal's war

>>12983180
well athene and hera have a grudge against paris (because he chose aphrodite over those two)

>> No.12983374

>>12981516
Of all the Gods Zeus was the most moderate. He reigned in the other gods.
There are lots of quarrels between the gods and between gods and men (hera and Athena detested the Trojans). These would have been common knowledge to the Greeks but probably overlooked by you if you don't know much about Greek mythology.

>> No.12983395

>>12983374
well homer does mention the judgement of paris in the iliad

>> No.12984776

>>12978114
Achilles (Akili) was a BLACK man, wh*Teboi

>> No.12984861
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12984861

>>12978530
Achilles regrets his actions. Homer condemns his hubris.

"The swift runner Achilles rose among them, asking,
'Agamemnon-was it better for both of us, after all,
for you and me to rage at each other, raked by anguish,
consumed by heartsick strife, all for a young girl?
If only Artemis had cut her down at the ships--
with one quick shaft-
that day I destroyed Lyrnessus, chose her as my prize.
How many fewer friends had gnawed the dust of the wide world,
brought down by enemy hands while I raged on and on. 70
Better? Yes-for Hector and Hector's Trojansl
Not for the Argives. For years to come, I think,
they will remember the feud that flared between us both.
Enough. Let bygones be bygones. Done is done.
Despite my anguish I will beat it down,
the fury mounting inside me, down by force.
Now, by god, I call a halt to all my anger-
it's wrong to keep on raging, heart inflamed forever.'" (Chapter 19)

>> No.12985341

>>12984861
>Achilles regrets his actions

If you marry, you will regret it; if you do not marry, you will also regret it; if you marry or do not marry, you will regret both; Laugh at the world’s follies, you will regret it, weep over them, you will also regret that; laugh at the world’s follies or weep over them, you will regret both; whether you laugh at the world’s follies or weep over them, you will regret both. Believe a woman, you will regret it, believe her not, you will also regret that; believe a woman or believe her not, you will regret both; whether you believe a woman or believe her not, you will regret both. Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will also regret that; hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both. This, gentlemen, is the sum and substance of all philosophy

>> No.12985400

>>12978540
Alexander looked up to Achilles.

on a side note, who wrote the better book on Alexander the Great's life?

>> No.12985457
File: 3.06 MB, 500x207, tut_tut.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12985457

>>12978034
So many hooked lips, do better /lit/.

>> No.12985483

>>12985400
Arrian

>> No.12985488

>>12977912
Who was the best girl again? Cassandra?

>> No.12985721

>>12985341
This isn't the worldview of Homer, though it may be that of Kieerkigard. Regret is contingent upon false action to Homer: Nestor exemplifies a man without regret, if he were young again he would choose to live life honorably just the same.

>> No.12985749

>>12985721
And I bet if agamemnon dishonored Achilles again he would do it all over too

>> No.12985827

>>12985721
nestor was homer's favourite butt (after agamemnon). nestor consistently gives bad advice which agamemnon always adopts (whereas polydamas consistently gives good advice, which hector always rejects)

>> No.12986010
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12986010

>>12985341
Bruh

>> No.12986069

>>12978423
haha got em

>> No.12987062

>>12985488
Briseis

>> No.12987193

posting Based Homer thread

>> No.12987607

>>12977912
woman detected rrrrrRRRRREEEEEEEEE

>> No.12987687

>>12985827
That's an interesting point, I'll have to go back and see if this is actually a parallel being made

>>12985749
If you still think this after reading Achilles telling Agamemnon that the only people benefiting from his hubris were the Trojans and being haunted by the host of Patrocolus you're not even reading the book. Have fun in fantasy land I guess

>> No.12987743

>>12978336
alternatively to hammer home that everyone in a war has a story there are no faceless hordes to slaughter irl

>> No.12989378

>>12987607
have sex