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/lit/ - Literature

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12970184 No.12970184 [Reply] [Original]

Guys, I'm going to debate someone about Marxism. Is this the book I should read if I don't want to look like an imbecile?

>> No.12970240

>>12970184
unless you want to be the kind of guy who just repeats what other people have told him about a thinker, yes

>> No.12970276
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12970276

>>12970184
Obviously, but Marxism isn't just Marx's works. I don't know why some people think Marxism is some kind of religion where you have to agree with everything Marx said.

>> No.12970417

>>12970184
Depends how much time you have got and how deep you want to go and what the debate will be about.

"Wage labor and capital" and "value, price and profit" are more accessible and much, much shorter than capital and should give you agood idea of what marxist economics are about. I'd also suggest Mendel's "An Introduction to Marxist Economic Theory."

If you want to discuss methodology and theory, there's Engels "Dialectics of Nature" and "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" and if you have time Lenin's "Materialism and Empirio-criticism." These are much heavier texts than the ones I suggested earlier, go here if you managed to digest those (and maybe Das Capital) and still want more.

>> No.12970429

>>12970276
>I don't know why some people think Marxism is some kind of religion
because it's followed my hundreds of millions of illiterate peasants who see it as a promise of utopia

>> No.12970432
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12970432

>>12970184
Also Imma post a couple of useful pics

>> No.12970438

>>12970429
You really shouldn't parrot the Peterson line about utopianism.
It exposes your illiteracy on the subject.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm

>> No.12970439
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12970439

>>12970432

>> No.12970446
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12970446

>>12970439

>> No.12970528

>>12970432
>>12970439
>>12970446
>useful pics
How are any of those books of any use?
You could spend a lifetime reading that garbage, and for what?

>> No.12970548

It doesn't matter because some Marxist is just going to pull out a different interpretation of Marx based on the writings of an obscure hungarian writer in the 1960's and say that you're wrong

>> No.12970579
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12970579

>>12970548
>an obscure hungarian writer in the 1960's
Why are you making fun of him anon?

>> No.12970582

>>12970528
I don't know... why do you read books exactly?

>> No.12970583

The first four chapters of Das Kapital desu

>> No.12970588

>>12970184
Why agree to debate someone on something you aren't familiar with in the first place? I guess the fact that you're trying to learn about it to not look like an idiot is a step forward, but if you're reading just to debate people it's a waste of time

>> No.12970615

>>12970582
Utility and enjoyment.

>> No.12970626

>>12970615
And Marxist literature cannot provide that?

>> No.12970645

>>12970626
>And Marxist literature cannot provide that?
Utility? No, not unless you are planning on debating a lobster psychologist on Marxism.
Enjoyment? I should hope not.

>> No.12970659

>>12970645
>Utility? No, not unless you are planning on debating a lobster psychologist on Marxism.
Why not? Even if you don't share Marxist principles, they still helped shape the modern world and the ideology of today as reaction against the communist movements of last century. If you want to understand our world, Marx is almost necessary
>Enjoyment? I should hope not.
Well it depends. Generally, theory book are not enjoyable as fiction is, but there is enjoyment in learning.

>> No.12970749

>>12970588
This thread is making fun of Peterson.

>> No.12970771

>>12970659
>If you want to understand our world, Marx is almost necessary
Understanding the world and history is not at all the goal of the images you posted.
>Well it depends. Generally, theory book are not enjoyable as fiction is, but there is enjoyment in learning.
I meant that, for the readers sake, I hope they wouldn't enjoy reading all those books on those images. Imagine the type of person that would.
Of all the books in the world, why would you just read those about Marxism? I'm sure you can find books better suited to gaining an understanding of the world. I'm sure you can find books more enjoyable.

>> No.12970773

>>12970184
read The German Ideology and Thesis on Feuerbach.

>> No.12970784

>>12970771
Yeah we no shit you could read more enjoyable books, but the thread is about marxist literature, so I posted a few pics with marxist literature. I don't really see the problem here to be honest.

>> No.12970787

>>12970548
>>12970579
lmao

>> No.12970797

>>12970784
>the thread is about marxist literature
This thread is about the debate.
>I don't really see the problem here to be honest.
You could spend a lifetime reading that garbage, and for what?

>> No.12970807

>>12970797
>You could spend a lifetime reading that garbage, and for what?
/lit/

>> No.12970832

>>12970548
>marx is an obscure hungarian writer from the 1960s
the absolute state of lit

>> No.12970833
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12970833

I don't get it. Why would Peterson admit he only read the Manifesto in 2019 when he's been criticizing this shit for years? It makes him look embarrasingly ignorant.

>> No.12970871

>>12970833
He also said he read it when he was 18, lol.
It's more embarrassing he didn't read anything else about something he says he disagrees with so much.

>> No.12970885

>>12970184
Read the Manifesto twice and watch a couple Zizek videos.

>> No.12970889

>>12970548
>based on the writings of an obscure hungarian writer in the 1960's
Just pull up another writings of an obscure American current writer to prove him wrong.

>> No.12970894
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12970894

>>12970832
>>12970276

>> No.12970899

>>12970184
Nah, just read a propaganda pamphlet. You're good.

>> No.12970901
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12970901

>>12970184
Your debate was yesterday, Jordan, you can't fix the damage done now.

>> No.12971026

>>12970184
Read it but also read this: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/spirkin/works/dialectical-materialism/index.html

>> No.12971076

Read Baudrillard's Mirror of Production and something else by him like The Perfect Crime and then dunk on Marxists forever by telling them how they are really just being subsumed within capital and there is actually no possibility for radical critique of the system from the outside.

>> No.12971095

>>12970833
because it was painfully obvious he doesn't have a clue about the subject so the better move was to just flat out admit it in the beginning so no one had their hopes up after that

>> No.12971112

>>12970832
Nice reading comprehension, /lit/

>> No.12971114

>>12970184
No, eat a steak, do two lines of coke then listen to an audiobook of the manifesto at 2,5x speed while watching the perverts guide to ideology with the sound turned off.

>> No.12971121
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12971121

>>12970184
you'll do fine with a laptop

>> No.12971136

>>12971112
nice reading comprehension, /lit/. i knew some idiot would pretend that i misread him even though i was literally just pointing out that all zizek did was use MARX and not a 1960s hungarian writer and that that is a dumb copout excuse

>> No.12973055 [DELETED] 

>>12970184
Piketty isn't a Marxist, so no.

>> No.12973075

>>12970276
>I don't know why some people think Marxism is some kind of religion where you have to agree with everything Marx said.
Duh maybe because its called Marxism

>> No.12973082

>>12970548
Pretty much.

Marx has been transformed in 10000 things, so whenever you say "This here is wrong!" they answer "No according to my interpretation!" then you have to ask for their interpretation and they will EXPLAIN it to you, and the audience will think he's like a teacher and you're like a child. Thus, he will "win" the debate.

Peterson's case was a bit extreme, because he should have known what type of thinker Zizek was. He didn't prepare. He's a psychoanalytic pseudo, so you shouldn't expect anything better. However, even if he had read, Zizek would probably use the same trick either way.

>> No.12973086

>>12970548
>of an obscure hungarian writer in the 1960's
István Mészáros?

>> No.12973090

>>12970438
The peasants see it that way no matter what the Marxist academics might say. I have personally met these peasants and talked to them about the revolution they think is coming

>> No.12973098
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12973098

>>12971121

>> No.12973100

>>12970833
Nobody reads irrelevant Marxist trash because it's irrelevant trash. It's like why aren't you extremely well read on Arianism or catharism or some other dead sectarian cult?

>> No.12973116

>>12970432
Schupeters not a Marxist

>> No.12973168

>>12970548
>exchange in the marketplace of ideas is futile
>Lukacs is literally not just Marx applied to art, history, and society

>> No.12973179

>>12970184
if you dont want to be the imbecile in the debate be the marxist

>> No.12973230

>>12970833
PETERSON IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL/THINKER/PHILOSOPHER EXPLORING IDEAS FROM THE PERSECTIVE OF THE DARK WEB.

HE IS A PROFESSOR, A REACTIONARY PROFESSOR, WHO STAGED A POLITICAL PROJECT TO RIDE THE WAVE OF RIGHT WING POPULISM, MAKE A NAME FOR HIMSELF, AND MAKE MONEY, AMD STICK IT TO LEFTIES OF COURSE.

PART OF THE GAME HE PLAYS IS NOT TO TALK ABOUT THOSE IDEAS OUTSIDE OF HIS LITTLE SPIEL. THIS POST MODERN NEO MARXIST VS WESTERN CIVILIZATION IDEA IS NOT NEW. THE NAZIS SAID IT, THE JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY SAYS IT, THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY SAYS IT, NAME A REPUBLICAN THINK TANK AND THEY PROBABLY SPREAD THAT SHIT TOO. PETERSON KS NOT ARGUING IN GOOD FAITH OR EXPLORING IDEAS YOU. AND I KNOW ITS YOUR PART IN THE GAME TO SCRATCH YOUR HEAD AND PRETEND THE THE ISSUE WITH PETERSON IS THAT HE WAS UNPREPARED BUT COME THE FUCK ON ALREADY. ITS UNBEARABLE.

>> No.12973254

>>12970184
Camatte is one of the only Marxists worth reading. He uses fairly simple language, understands Marx better than almost anyone, and he has a scathing critique of marxist organisation.

>> No.12973297

>>12970833
Part of arguing against leftists is to play dumb and then troll them when they get pissed off. If you are arguing that wealth inequality doesn't exist, pay gap doesn't exist, oppression doesn't exist, racism doesn't exist, progress is impossible or not worth it, hierarchies are ipso facto justified, or they are an unavoidable or unalterable part of human nature, etc, etc, why would you read detailed explanations arguing in the opposite direction?

>> No.12973532

>>12973100
Then don't talk about it like you know it or challenge people to a debate about said topic?

>> No.12973722

>>12970833
here's a piece of thought that I feel I need to articulate somewhere on here, because no one else might have come to the same conclusion so this post might be as good as anything:

notice that zizek well before the debate, in his various write ups and interviews or whatever, staunchingly opposed peterson clearly considering him as his political enemy - someone who needs to be called out on bullshit and acted upon against
but then, when it finally comes to the debate, zizek suddenly notices that peterson is not some kind of a Big Enemy or a dishonest, maniacally reactionary pundit. he just sees him as uneducated as he's ignorant, notices that peterson's stances are genuine even if misinformed. and then instead of totally blasting peterson, ziz embraces him feeling that peterson has good intentions that just got wholly misdirected. peterson becomes in his eyes a boy that needs further acquisition of knowledge and to let that happen he tries to treat him as humbly as he can. what a wonderful human being honestly, this is everything peterson needed to see communism with a human face

>> No.12973778

>>12970833

Because he thought Stalinism = Marxism, even though he himself has pointed out that there were communist that were anti-soviet; he just never thought to think why they were. simple category error