/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12881787]

>be reading book
>the characters start talking about their depression as if psychiatry is a fact and not a ludicrous theory which relinquishes people of a sense of responsibilty for their actions

[Anonymous No.12881846]

>>12881787
Why did the wrong brother die?

[Anonymous No.12883436]

I know this feel

[Anonymous No.12884626]

>>12881846

Fuck off dork

[Anonymous No.12884641]

>>12881787

>which relinquishes people of a sense of responsibilty for their actions

What have you been smoking OP? Even holistic quantum coaching bullshit, and mostly anything we read about the mind and the psyche, from Jordan Peterson to occupational therapists who do lame presentations to companies, are all about imbuing people with responsibility for their own lives. Clearly you've never been forced into one of said presentations by your employer if you even have one

[Anonymous No.12884654]

>>12884641
>holistic quantum coaching
>occupational therapists who do lame presentations to companies

Nah I'll be honest I've never came across this

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.12884666]

>>12881787
>Characters hold opinions reader does not.
This a reading assignment or something, weener?

>>12881846
I know!

[Anonymous No.12884678]

>>12881787
Unironically agree with OP. I had severe "social anxiety" when I was younger. I was completely dysfunctional, couldn't go outside and speak to anyone, had some business with an office admin and I couldn't enter the building, just started crying and ran home. That was the last straw for me.
If I had listened to shrinks I'd be on some retarded pill the rest of my life rocking back and forth in the corner on neetbucks
Instead I fixed my fucking problem. Now I can walk up and talk to anyone. I'd walk right up to the president and ask him for directions to the subway station if I caught him on the street. No fear, no shyness. Hanging on to these bullshit psychological labels will only cripple you with a learned helplessness. You can 100% change your mind to however you please. If anything I went too far, I'm now far more self confident than the average person and can take leadership roles when others wimp out. All from thinking at myself. Psychologists are a fat load of bullshit.
I knew a guy who got labeled with adhd. He used that as an excuse as to why he couldn't put down the vidya to study. He ended up flunking out of college and working in a convenience store. People use the labels as an excuse to continue their own bad habits without feeling bad about themselves.

[Anonymous No.12884688]

>>12881787
Scientology shills go home

[Anonymous No.12884691]

>>12884678
woah cool anecdote bro, that must really blow a large hole through the tomes of evidence backing psychiatry

[Anonymous No.12884696]

>>12884678
Can't tell if ironic.

[Anonymous No.12884723]

>>12884691
>>12884696
Stay jealous, incel social retard faggots.

[Anonymous No.12884724]

>>12881846
cancer

[Anonymous No.12884740]

>>12884723
absolute fuckwit

[Anonymous No.12884747]

>>12884723
lmao retard

[Anonymous No.12884748]

>>12884678
>just stop being mentally ill
>take my convenient anecdotal evidence over millions of empirical studies

[Anonymous No.12884911]

depression is pretty much a meme in general

[Anonymous No.12884926]

>>12884678
Mate don’t listen to the haters. It’s totally doable

[Anonymous No.12884936]

>>12884911
Is addiction induced depression a meme too?

[Anonymous No.12884942]

>>12884936
Yes.

[Anonymous No.12884946]

>>12884926
>you can rise above maladaptive behaviors
>lmao so the maladaptive behaviors never existed at all

[Anonymous No.12884957]

>>12884942
Yah fuck off.

[Anonymous No.12884959]

>>12884641
This. OP is ignorant. Actual psychiatry is pretty pessimistic as it recognizes how hard it is to escape trauma patterns.

[Anonymous No.12884982]

>>12884678
t. lobster
I knew some guys that had dysfunctional dopaminergic systems and couldn't cope with the dissatisfactions of real life so they did drugs and died.
Do you think it would have helped them to feel bad about themselves and man-up?

[Anonymous No.12885041]

>>12884946
Psychology is just trying to put people inte different boxes, so it's easier to categorize. Like Guenon said, we live in the reign of quantity and this is another symptom of this. Everything needs to be ordered in certain ways or else society can't cope. The mechanistic view has completely shattered anything genuine

There are definitely different archetypes, like "intelligent" people (Odysseus) very skilled people (Achilles) leaders (Aeneas) and so forth. But these new psychological terms are nothing like that, they basically try and determine whether you are "fit" as a human what so ever mentally. This is complete BS as is basically shatters free will as a concept, and we know free will is real

[Anonymous No.12885125]

>>12884926
I'm not, bro. They can wallow in their self pity and helplessness, exactly as I said they will. h8rs gonna g8.
>>12884982
>waaah I had no choice, the drugs injected themselves into my veins on their own

[Anonymous No.12885212]

>>12884957
>>12884748
Interesting how every response to criticisms of psychiatry is aggression, anecdotal evidence, or deference to the authority of 'experts'.

Psychiatry does not study empirical facts in the same way you can view a flu bacterium under a microscope, it makes assumptions on an inconceivably complex organ we have little understanding of, and calls this an empirical discovery rather than a vague theory about how humans likely operate if we assume they are mechanistic and incapable of free will.

[Anonymous No.12885397]

>>12885212
I mostly disagree with your individualistic presumptions. Humans are social creatures: we imitate each other either consciously or unconsciously. No human is the same, but we abide to a big degree by the culture and environment we have grown up in and have come to be accustomed with. Psychiatry is not denying this complexity in humanity, but it does recognize destructive patterns/habits that humans may have created in their life. The belief in the ability of the individual to change those patterns/habits is at the core of psychiatry.

[Anonymous No.12885487]

>>12881787
So why is he or his dead brother popular again? Were they just the "rational atheist here" before YouTube came along?

[Anonymous No.12885731]

Psychiatry is literally a pseudoscience. 50 years from now it'll be categorized as falling within the same domain as humours and bloodletting.

[Anonymous No.12885756]

>>12884748
You can find psychiatrists admitting that most of the diagnostic concepts they use are pretty weak and speculative. Autism, ADHD, and schizophrenia are basically just a collection of symptoms found in certain individuals with no discernible pathological cause. Treating these conditions is usually just a shot in the dark to see which medications work. In the case of autism, none of the treatments really "work" in any meaningful sense.

[Anonymous No.12885787]

>>12885487
They're both erudite English journalists with pretensions to political and literary influence. Christopher was the atheist, and disavowed socialist. His brother was always an English conservative and they never liked each other very much.

[Anonymous No.12885803]

>>12881787
>>12881787
>Race is totally real!
>Sex is totally real!
>Psychology and the study of the mind is all just a Jewish trick and not basedon any tangible, demonstratablr realities!
Why are alt-righters so fucking stupid?

[Anonymous No.12885804]

>>12881787
>be reading book
>the characters believe in the fantasy of addiction and act as if they are forced to partake in hedonistic drug taking rather than that they are acting out their hedonistic selfish desires

[Anonymous No.12885852]

>>12884666
>shitty take from persistent, retarded tripfag
>satanic number
checks out

[Anonymous No.12885863]

>>12885803
>Race and sex isn't real
You lost me

[Anonymous No.12885875]

>>12885803
faggy post

[Anonymous No.12885891]

>>12885863
My point is that either all of those things are real, or none of them are real. Blindly denying the provable differences in peoples neurochemistry in order to cling to some asinine Enlightenment era idealistic myth of fundamental equality and rational choice is as dumb as denying the realities of race or sex.

[Anonymous No.12885892]

>>12885803
I'm not skeptical of psychiatry because I'm right-wing. I'm skeptical of psychiatry because I have experience with it and Foucault is spot on about it. Psychiatry is at best a hit-or-miss social science, at worst, a way of enforcing social codes disguised as hard science and medicine.

[Anonymous No.12885897]

>>12885891
The three things you've listed are barely connected. The reality of race has little to do with sex, and I don't even know what you mean by "real?" Even social constructs are "real" in some sense.

[Anonymous No.12885976]

>>12884748
>Muh psychology studies which have a terrible replication rate

[Anonymous No.12885993]

>>12885803
>If these 2 categories based on objective empirical evidence are real then this Jewish pseudoscience based on intangibles must be real too

[Anonymous No.12886001]

Mods are faggots as usual, at least move to /sci/ or whatever.

[Anonymous No.12886004]

>>12885125
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, boomer. Some people, either by biological difference or early trauma, are completely incapacitated and their only resort for some sliver of happiness is to inject something in their veins to boost their dopamine.
Would you berate a cripple for not being able to run a marathon? It's very close to that. Fucking bootstrap retard

[Anonymous No.12886009]

>>12885891
>>12885993
He missinterprets psychology with (neuro-)chemistry/ physiology. We can measure that some brains differ in their activity and give it terms like depression and PTSD, but that doesn't give psychology any merit in a scientific sense. As other anons stated the things we know about the brain aren't nearly enough. Psychology is anecdotal at best, its literally what priests do in their community just without the theology.

[Anonymous No.12886023]

>>12885891
Well what proof do you have that the differences in the activity of the brain are the source of those problems and not a symptom.

[Anonymous No.12886030]

>>12886009
Psychology is also widely misquoted and misinterpreted by the average person. For example dopamine isn't the "happiness chemical" that gets released anytime you have sex or play video games, which is often how it gets described. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that helps your central nervous system communicate with the rest of your body. When your body stops producing dopamine, you don't get depressed, you get parkinson's, and the initial tremors of parkinson's disease are caused by the interrupted communication between your brain and body.

[Anonymous No.12886034]

>>12886009
We haven't even understood how simple organs work. It will take hundreds of years to find drugs that normalize brains and optimize them for normal social function. Until then, talk therapy is the best we have.
So:
Psychiatry is a physical science and modern imaging techniques prove it.
Psychology is our best bet to accessing issues in the brain.

[Anonymous No.12886049]

>>12881787
People with clinical depression have different brain chemistry than normies, you could say something like literal brain damage. So if Hitchens lets somebody poke him in the brain a few times with a pencil and subsequently pulls himself up from his mental bootstraps, I will accept his argument.

[Anonymous No.12886055]

>>12885756
>no discernible pathological cause
The fuck do you mean. These conditions are the pathology. And they often have psychophysiological causes in neurochemistry and neurobiology.

>>12885731
It’s not. It’s a medical field held at the same methodlogical standards as all other fiemds in medicine. The research is empirically based and reviewed. It’s also out there for you to look at and inspect on your own. You have an ideological bias against it that has nothing to do with science.

[Anonymous No.12886069]

>>12886055
>they have psychophysiological causes
Putting the word "psychophysiological" in front of the word causes doesn't help us understand what they are. Psychiatrists don't know what causes autism or schizophrenia period. Psychiatrists will admit this when asked.

[Anonymous No.12886081]

>>12886009
>Psychology is anecdotal at best, its literally what priests do in their community just without the theology.

You know how many different psychologies there are? There’s nothing anecdotal about cognitive, psycophysics or developmental psychology. Therapy is a different beast and it is not a science, its a service. There exist much empirically based observations in psychology that aren’t really up to debate such as the misinformation effect and phonological restoration. Treating the brain, as in psychiatry, is a medical science and it’s held up to the same standards as any other medical field.

[Anonymous No.12886106]

>>12886081
There's a lot of trial-and-error in psychiatry that there isn't as much of in other fields. Since we don't know what causes schizophrenia, treating it is just a matter of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

[Anonymous No.12886126]

>>12886069
But there are known causes such a chemical imbalaces. There are signs in brain topology that serve as predictors for autism in children. There are eeg readings that are seen msinly in people with OCD. There are certain chemical inbalances in people with depression, etc. These is the empirical research. If you say, “well, it’s not too accurate”, then sure you’re right. But that doestdiscredit the field, it means we need more research. We know far more mow than we did mere decades ago. Too put the validity of psychiatry in question just because it doesn’t have all the answers roght now is like calling biology a pseudoscience because we cant cure cancer yet.

[Anonymous No.12886147]

>>12886126
I'm not the person saying psychiatry is a pseudoscience. Its a legitimate science, but it deserves a lot of skepticism, especially since psychiatry has used and abused a certain degree of social power. In its nascent stages psychiatry was used to lobotomize and imprison people for masturbating too much, and psych wards are still places where an ill-timed suicide joke can get you locked up for weeks, so its hard to treat it with unreserved goodwill

[Anonymous No.12886264]

>>12884959
>how hard it is to escape trauma patterns.
You mean how hard it is to escape being weak, overemotional and submissive? Is this why women and males raised by women become incapable of escaping this?

[Anonymous No.12886269]

>>12886004
Why do you think happiness = dopamine? If you were hooked up to a machine that would pump you full of that neurotransmitter all while at the same time your family and friends are killed in front of you, would you still be happy?

[Anonymous No.12886282]

>>12886004
>
You can't be 'diagnosed' with depression. You can only have an 'opinion'. A psychologist by definition can't 'diagnose' anything a psychiatrist can diagnose, e.g. a tumour. So you failed to face up to going for a walk daily and eating properly, had some "early trauma" which probably didn't even involve serious physical or sexual abuse and went whinging to quacks who are now going to profit from selling you addictive ssris that make you unstable. Feeling down is part of life occasionally. Deal with it and don't buy into this American crap designed to push dangerous drugs on morons.

[Anonymous No.12886314]

>>12885803
>Why are alt-righters so fucking stupid?
Most of them are plebs.
Most of them are depressed and programmed to hate themselves (even if they react to the programming rather than just accepting it).

[Anonymous No.12886325]

>>12886314
>Most of them are depressed and programmed to hate themselves
Massive projection

[Anonymous No.12886333]

>>12886325
>/pol/ isn't depressed
It's not /r9k/ but still.
>programmed to hate themselves
This is a fact, as state education is mandatory.

[Anonymous No.12886338]

>>12886264
I subscribe to the trauma model and view these ailments as persistive maladaptions that you can't handle by being le manly man durrrr (no more than a manly diabetic man can't produce insulin).
But you can call it like that if you like. It reveals how pleb and out of place you are. Go to /pol/ with this pseudo machismo childish crap

[Anonymous No.12886344]

>>12886338
>this pseudo machismo
Says the purveyor of pseudoscience

[Anonymous No.12886384]

>>12886314
>>12885803
Jordan Peterson is a good example. They all are lapdogs and bottom tier bootlickers that are trained to find the breadcrumbs delicious and act like agents of their master, putting down any dissident that points modernism as the cause of psychological ailments.
In short, denial.

[Anonymous No.12886386]

>>12881846
Based

[Anonymous No.12886396]

>>12881846
>warmongering neocon wolf in sheeps clothing

i dab on his grave

[Anonymous No.12886402]

>>12885803
>>12885891
>normal brain

[Anonymous No.12886433]

>>12886264
>is this why women and males raised by women become incapable of escaping this?

Hope you stretched before that reach. Also source?

>how hard it is to escape being weak, overemotional, and submissive

You have the wrong conception of these qualities. It also appears you mistakenly believe we have full control over our mental capacities and that external stimuli/experiences dont mold and shape one's ability to function/perform in the world, which is also objectively wrong considering a vast array of mental illnesses that are influenced genetically insofar as we know, and personality disorder that arise from a young age due to trauma, which is studied and verified.
These changes in behavior, perception, and emotional control affect our ability to will ourselves. Of course there's numerous individuals who have overcome momentous physical/psychological hardships the likes of which you or I will never know. However, those feelings and memories dont simply vanish, they are compartmentalized and adjusted so as to allow some sense of stability. They change in some way, even if they're better for, they've changed from something they had no say in. So you're notion of people who cant overcome, remain suffering, or are in the process of overcoming being overemotional and submissive and other blah blah blahs that belch out of your ass are fictitious and indicative of severe retardation.


TL;DR
>t.fedora neckbeard faggot cant conceptualize anything outside of his first read through of American Psycho and should certainly end it as soon as possible

[Anonymous No.12886441]

>>12885803
>observable, objective things are real
>unobservable, in-objective things aren’t real

Yeah

[Anonymous No.12886444]

any books to cure social anxiety?

[Anonymous No.12886470]

>>12886433
>, and personality disorder that arise from a young age due to trauma, which is studied and verified.
So how much responsibility should they be allowed to give up, if they fail education and fail to succeed in life due to this trauma do they get permanently supported by the state?

[Anonymous No.12886479]

>>12881787
Very good post, the amount of manchildren triggered by it is verification enough.

[Anonymous No.12886550]

>>12886470
Well I'm in no way a psychiatrist, nor an expert on the stipulations of social mental health services. But from my current understanding, I believe the failure of children in education are to a degree, symptoms of our current public education systems shit-tier programs and methodology for learning. That's why I'd encourage dynamic learning programs that are adapted for individuals afflicted with emotional trauma/mental illnesses. Yes I'm aware we have special classes throughout the US (not entirely accessible) but they're not comprehensive and often have significant failures on the part of those in charge. There should be more insight and reliance on people who specialize in mental health for children and adults within our institutions. Yes, there will be certain individuals too fucked up to perform optimally, just as there are people on disability for physical and mental ailments currently. Theres not much to be done about that until institutions start to take into consideration the intersections between class, race, and those who are granted the rights to direct institutions such as education. Where the money would come from to allow for these developments, I can't quite say, although I know what'd I do. But I'm not qualified for those assertions, I'm simply aware of the overall picture of what should probably be done. The mechanics of achieving this? I'll have to leave them up to those who have the most influence until one day I can participate appropriately.

[Anonymous No.12886559]

>>12886479

There's no verification, OP made a bogus statement and is currently getting BTFO'd

You're probably OP desu

[Anonymous No.12886561]

>>12886479
>”manchildren,” as I describe them, are upset, therefore your statement is true

[Anonymous No.12886565]

>>12886559
>>12886561
t. manchildren

[Anonymous No.12886573]

>>12886565
T.pseud grasping for some semblance of security in a fragmented comprehension of reality

[Anonymous No.12886574]

>>12886573
>T.pseud grasping for some semblance of security in a fragmented comprehension of reality

[Anonymous No.12886579]

>>12886574

[Anonymous No.12886591]

>>12886550
masturbatory virtue signalling

[Anonymous No.12886750]

>>12886550
Arendt: Crisis in Education. Required reading for this topic.

Segregating students based on arbitrary reasons decided by a 3rd-party (the teachers and administrators) is a good way to fuck those children up right-quick. You completely warp their world-view by giving them evidence that they are different from the others, and once that idea is instilled into them and their peers they will never shake it off on their own.

Besides, the problems with education can't even begin to be solved unless we fix parents too, because the majority of issues in the classroom stem from there. A problem that is only increasing as we move farther and farther into the 21st century.

The more you think about how to fix education, the more you have to move the goal post. The eventual realization is that the problem exists at the absolute ground-level. There are so many kids being raised by so many fuck-awful parents, that the schools literally spend 80% of their time teaching those students shit their parents should have taught them ages ago, all the way into highschool.
Teachers aren't meant to be teaching anything to children beyond their subject matter and the basics of functioning in an organized environment. They only get so much time with their students and then those kids get to go home where their parents literally ignore them or beat them or un-learn them, and then that kid comes back in to class the next day and it all starts from square-1.
Then that same kid grows up on this rocky foundation and has no basis for learning, no backbone for discipline or order in his life. Most of what he knows he learned from his peers or his fucking instagram page. The schools now have to make sure he passes or they lose their fucking jobs. The system falls apart and everyone is just scrambling to get this fucking kid a diploma or otherwise ruin what little life he might get a chance at.

This is obviously an abbreviated view of it but seriously, talking about education is fucking POINTLESS when the parents can't be trusted. Everything happens in those first 10-12 years of a student's life, and the most important people during that time are those familial-figures that are supposed to be nurturing them. But our society simply does not allow.

[Anonymous No.12886959]

>>12885804
>reading book
>author describes skim milk as if it is actually real milk and not just a pale imitation reminiscent of the modern commonwealth

[Anonymous No.12887179]

>>12886750
>You completely warp their world-view by giving them evidence that they are different from the others, and once that idea is instilled into them and their peers they will never shake it off on their own.
Except they clearly are the sooner they realise this and accept it the better, why lie to them?