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/lit/ - Literature

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12842621 No.12842621[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>I need to believe that God exists, because if he does not then everything is meaningless.
Is there anything wrong with this thought?

>> No.12842637

>>12842621
No

>> No.12842643

Why the fuck does a god exist? What's the meaning of his existence? Who created "him"? Ok, so after we die we just stay in heaven (or hell) for eternity doing nothing? Won't that get a little bit boring after a fucktillion years? What's the meaning of that?

>> No.12842649
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12842649

>>12842621
Nope. Man is a complicated being, and science has not yet modeled all of his systems yet. Theology is 100% a necessity for any intelligent human.

>> No.12842652

Humans intrinsically value the truth and if you don't genuinely believe god is real i don't see how you're deriving meaning from him.

>> No.12842656

>>12842643
>eternity doing nothing
We r hangin with jesus not nothin

>> No.12842661

>>12842649
>Theology is necessary because all of man's systems have not been modeled by science
You have absolutely no negative capability, do you?

>> No.12842662
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12842662

>>12842649

>> No.12842665

>>12842621
its just a fairly weak self deceptive view that will crumble under any strain

>> No.12842673
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12842673

>>12842621

If a creator God exists, he is also the author of all woes.

Consider Mahayana Buddhism, there is no creator, but a grounding of suchness that pervades all things - the Dharmakaya.

We have a need to believe as humans a beginning and an end because of our status as impermanent entities only truly able to understand other impermanent entities, but the truth is all things have existed and will continue to exist, infinitely going through periods of creation and destruction.

>> No.12842674

All meaning is based on a set of subjective priors regardless of what you pick to be your priors. It is possible to build a cohesive system of belief and meaning from whichever axioms you choose to represent your personal system.

If you are Christian or Muslim this might start with illogical religious axioms that you build your logical/moral/ideological framework out of. Some people choose various other schools of philosophy for their axioms. Others pick different scientific discussions to help them pick their axioms. Other people try to get out of the game by not picking any, but those people are generally depressed or suicidal.

>> No.12842682

>>12842652
Rationality is self-affirming even to matters that clearly lie beyond rationality by definition. To me this makes it hard to believe in God because of the way I'm conditioned to operate in the material world but my feeling is that it is something I need to reconsider since it would not make sense to make judgements rationally about things you can not know. It sounds like a gigantic cope but it's logically sound. Believing is what I find real difficult, but then again I don't know what it means to believe.

>>12842665
Do you find atheism makes you feel more freedom? Genuinely asking.

>> No.12842684

The existence of God doesn't inherently create meaning as far as I can see

>> No.12842685

>>12842621
He may exist or may not. What matter is the absence of contact with him

>> No.12842686

>>12842682
i am not an atheist.

>> No.12842692

>>12842686
ops argument is literally "please dont convince me god doesnt exist, or i might kill myself" -- not so much of a position on god as an open admission that he is incredibly lost

>> No.12842696

All humans want to find meaning. Theism claim to be able to offer cosmic/ultimate meaning. So if this is the kind you want, you are stuck with theism.
However, you can find/create your own meaning even if it isn't the ultimate meaning... as in existentialism.
Personally, i have evolved beyond the need for meaning.

>> No.12842700

>>12842692
its a worthless position and frankly to be expected from someone whos experience of religion is what currently passes for Christianity, i recommend reading Corpus Hermeticum very carefully and leaving the jew shit behind for the time being

>> No.12842706

>>12842692
I'm beyond the stage where I can be convinced God doesn't exist, I still find the thought terrifying.

>>12842686
I misinterpreted your reply then.

>>12842684
>>12842685
You're answering each other.

>> No.12842710

>>12842706
being too mentally frail to consider the possibility is an admission that you are engaging in self deception and i would argue does not even qualify as real belief

>> No.12842711
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12842711

>>12842696
what about both

>>12842700
fair, i had to discover religion for myself

>> No.12842719

>>12842710
It's not real belief, I'm saying it myself. I'm also saying my default position was considering God doesn't exist, I see how you would think it was the reverse.

>> No.12842723

i have equally heard people argue that they need to believe heroin is good for them because if its not then their life is too painful

>> No.12842727

>>12842719
you could attain real belief through meditative practice and religious study

>> No.12842729

>>12842719
so your position is that you cant believe god doesnt exist but you also dont believe that god exists?

>> No.12842744

What makes a person believe in a religion beyond being born into it? Even if someone desired to follow a religion isnt it a toss up?

>> No.12842748

>>12842744
revelation you idiot

>> No.12842754

>>12842729
yes, but also that using my brain to come to the conclusion that god doesn't exist is meaningless

i'm sure it's not an uncommon position but i haven't read much philosophy

>> No.12842766

>>12842621
No, because despite your subjective perception, it is still worhless, and the conscious lies that you can tell yourself have no influence on a reality that lacks of objective truths.

>> No.12842778

>>12842621
>because if he does not then everything is meaningless.
of course, when you lose what was giving you meaning, everything becomes meaningless until you find something else

>> No.12842785

>>12842766
See, that's more of a cope I would tell others but find too pathetic to think myself because I feel I have to know for certain. I would also not completely agree.

>> No.12842790

>>12842754
if you dont want to think about things then theres an excellent board called /v/

>> No.12842794

My question to all of you is the following:

For some reason, in the phenomenon we call life, the universe became aware of itself. Why?

>> No.12842807

>>12842621
Seems more out of desperation there than faith.
With the added premise that you see meaning/truth/goodness in existence, then God existing logically follows and seeing that goodness in the world is the act of faith.

>> No.12842812

>>12842785
>I feel I have to know for certain
But what have you done to reach that "certainty"? You are not an Aristotle, a Kant, a Heidegger or a Camus to develop a deep thought process and express it in "objective concepts". (It's not like I need to be one of them to observe those same deficiencies in other people)
Giving (or not) objective meaning to life is important (or not) according to the relevance that is assigned (or not) to this meaning. But in any case, it is a subjective perception of reality.

>> No.12842814

>>12842794
because it allows for a wider range of experiences beyond material collision and interacting forces. we are the most complex drama to ever exist

>> No.12842845

>>12842812
>Giving (or not) objective meaning to life is important (or not) according to the relevance that is assigned (or not) to this meaning. But in any case, it is a subjective perception of reality.

you've won /lit/ good sir.

>> No.12842852

>>12842807
Thanks

>> No.12842879

>>12842845
I think you misinterpreted me to mean that me wanting to know for certain was the conscious part of my thinking process. It's the default, the conscious part is realizing that you can't know for certain, precisely because as you said it should be obvious that everything is a subjective perception of reality, it doesn't mean anything. It's what paves the path to letting the possibility of God exist, not the opposite.

Those people you mentioned are no doubt geniuses but they tried to interpret and bring structure to concepts that would still be reachable to a person not familiar with philosophy. An objective concept in the realm of philosophy seems like an oxymoron to me.

I'm also going to bed, I'm sorry if this post reads like rambling.

>> No.12842886

>>12842879
>>12842812
meant for (you)

>> No.12842892

>>12842812
>>12842879

Have a good night pal-

>> No.12843078
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12843078

*ahem*
fuck god

>> No.12843082

>>12842621
God exists and everything is still meaningless.

>> No.12843807

Not as such. It just could end up being wrong.

>> No.12843826

>>12842621

Meaning comes from an authority figure. This meaning is therefore reliant on the authority of the figure. If the authority or even existence of the figure is questioned then the legitimacy of the meaning given by this figure is also questioned.

This is the argument that philosophers have been making against theologians in Europe for centuries ever since Plato for the idea that we can take our laws from a lawgiver. Meaning is an incredibly important concept, just like the idea of justice. Do not rely on a concept that can be put into doubt.

>> No.12843844

>existence of God gives life meaning
How

>> No.12843845

The existence of God is almost obvious once you realize God is the source of creation (outside space and time) and not an old man in the sky.

The existence of a God who is deeply interested in human affairs and actually loves them is the hard thing to believe, what with all the misery and cancer in children, and lack of obvious miracles or prophets.

>> No.12844148

>>12842649
>science has not yet modeled all of his systems yet
Science will never model all of man's systems. Only bugmen have this "science will fix everything one day" mindset

>> No.12844160

>>12842621
nope
you can believe in god if you want to
don't listen to those stupid self-worshipping atheists

>> No.12844231

>>12842621
Man needs meaning. Atheists have replaced God with a belief in an equally monotheistic higher power like "Rationality", "Humanity", "Progressivism" or some other secularized form of Christian eschatology.

>> No.12844243

>>12842621
>Is there anything wrong with this thought?
The fact that it's wrong.

>> No.12844270

>>12842621
pussy

>> No.12844279

>>12844231
>DUDE SCIENCE IS BASICALLY RELIGION LMAO
>Nevermind the fact that unlike religion science actually reveals working facts about the world and improves your living conditions bro, it's totally the same as impotent prayers and tales about Sky Daddy

>> No.12844394

What is meaning?

>> No.12844884

>>12842621
It's false.

But do elaborate on the connection between the existence of a deity and meaning. Euthyphro (or rather Socrates) already showed some 2500 years ago that religion/gods don't have anything to do with the existence of moral facts, why should the case with meaning be any different?

>> No.12846186

OP, I'll give you 1 million dollars if you begin believing in unicorns. Do you believe in unicorns now? That would be mighty beneficial, but did you actually manage to convince your mind that unicorns exist? Say we have a perfect polygraph lie detector which never fails to detect false claims, would you pass it?

>> No.12846199

>>12842643
These questions don't even apply to the judeochristian idea of God.

>> No.12846220

the logical conclusion of atheism is suicide
there a no real atheists itt

>> No.12846248

>>12846220
The logical conclusion to religion is also suicide, just not a direct one. However, since heaven exists, one doesn't have to treat life as a precious thing. One can go to war, volunteer to treat the contagious sick, spread the love of Christ in muslim countries etc. The honest christian would be living his life in full yolo mode, self-preservation is only exposing their hypocrisy.

>> No.12846279

>>12846248
why is life precious without God

>> No.12846283

>>12846279
With eternity of dark void ahead, might as well stretch life till the very end.

>> No.12846289

>>12846283
why

>> No.12846298

>>12846289
My primal instincts tell me that void is spoopy and death bad, therefore life good

>> No.12846305

>>12846298
okay so no reason

>> No.12846726

>>12844148
Thx 4 greeing with me m8

>>12842661
Care to extrapolate?

>> No.12846741

>>12842621
You assume you can attribute a value onto life. I pity you.

>> No.12846755

Empirically yes. If life was created with purpose, then it has meaning. If it's just natural happenstance, then human life had no more meaning than that of sardines or nematodes. Meaning is the abstraction of connections and does not exist in nature.

>> No.12846769

>>12846199
You're right. The Christian god is not content with us doing nothing in heaven. He wants us to perpetually grovel at his feet like submissive little bitchboys. I'd rather go to hell.

>> No.12848280

>>12844279
>Reddit-tier post
Jesus christ, you are prime example of religious atheists
>reveals working "facts" about the world and improve your life.
Litterally what a religious nut would say about his beliefs.

>> No.12848288

>>12842621
Yes. By saying there is no meaning to life except that god may exist, you invalidate every other possible meaning and close yourself off from all of them.
OP is peak brainlet. can you fuckers please stop posting threads here--a thread died for this.

>> No.12848338

>>12842621
No, God Himself is the latent source from which all attributions and sensations of meaning flow.

>> No.12848354

>>12842621
Why does it matter if everything is meaningless. Look at animals. They are fucking happy little shits and they don't even know what meaning means. Though since men seem to prefer meaningfulness, man can make it for himself.

>> No.12848430

Goddamn y’all the entire point of life is to create your own fucking meaning

>> No.12848578

>>12848430
why

>> No.12848600

no
but it has no place in any discussion about truth, reality or ethics

>> No.12848633

>>12848288
It took me a millisecond to pinpoint why your thinking is wrong but it's such a subhuman level IQ train of thought you put forward that it's pointless to explain.

>>12848430
You're a step behind what we discussed itt