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/lit/ - Literature

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12577100 No.12577100 [Reply] [Original]

>Irish are good at writing literature
>literally all their best writers are English in blood
>their ancient literature just copy better ones like the Odyssey (Irish one is Voyage of Mael Duin) or just try to copy beats and themes like their shitty version of the Iliad (theirs is called the Raid)
Its time to put the fenians are good writers meme to rest /lit/

>> No.12577374

>>12577100
it's almost as if writing is an upper class phenomenon and all the upper class Irish were Norman/Viking

>> No.12577381

>Normans
>English
Oh no no no

>> No.12577389

>>12577381
also this

>> No.12577545

>>12577100
>>literally all their best writers are English in blood

not joyce

/thread

>> No.12577616

>>12577545
Wrong. Joyce's family came from Cork, everybody from that region has a significant amount of English blood.

>> No.12577654

why are there so much retarded jingoism with literature that you don't find with music/visual arts?

of course the medium itself is language, which is a contested zone, but holy shit are you all retarded enough to care about this?

>> No.12577729

>>12577100
Gentle reminder that 1/4 of all British people have Irish ancestry

Moreover, most of the Anglo-Irish Protestant Ascendancy post-17th century had significant Irish ancestry.

W.B. Yeats, Oscar Wilde, Sheridan Le Fanu, Bram Stoker, and Lord Dunsany all were directly descended from "Irish" Irish people.

The American writers Edgar Allan Poe, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Eugene O'Neill, and Flannery O'Connor were all directly descended from "Irish" Irish people.

There are plenty of more or less full-blooded Irishmen who are excellent contemporary writers in their own right: James Joyce (pbuh), Flann O'Brien, Colm Toibin, Patrick Kavanagh, John Banville, Seamus Heaney, the list could go on...

In eras before modern literature, the Irish were already very literary. Irish monks were the first fully literate people of Western Europe who wrote in a vernacular language as well as Latin and Greek--well before the English. They preserved ancient texts from Greece and Rome that likely would have been lost otherwise and composed poetry and myths. Ancient examples of Irish writing in their own language date back to the 4th century, when the Roman Empire was still extant and the English were still illiterate in their own language.

Basically, Ireland has one of the most developed literary cultures on the planet, despite spending most of its history as the white man's niggers and making up only a minuscule fraction of the size of other nations

>> No.12577759

>>12577616
What an erroneous statement, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Joyce’s ancestors were Irish nationalists.

>> No.12577773

>>12577100
>their ancient literature just copy better ones like the Odyssey
their modern literature too

>> No.12577784

>>12577729
>Wilde
>Stoker
>Poe
They're literally Anglo-Saxon names, anyone who calls them Irish are retarded

>> No.12577785

>>12577100
How is the fenian cycle a copy of the odyssey you stupid nigger?

>> No.12577788

>>12577759
>>12577616
Joyce is a Norman name and probably came over from England

>> No.12577795

>>12577784
They have immediate Irish ancestry, they are Anglo-Irish whether you choose to accept this fact or not. The majority of these writers had a greater affinity with Ireland than they could have ever had with England and despite this there are many accomplished Irish writers outside of the Anglo-Irish literary pantheon. A disproportionate number infact, it wouldn’t be beyond reckoning in asserting that the Irish have surpassed the English at their own language.

>> No.12577808

>>12577788
You have absolutely no tangible evidence of this, as far as Joyce’s work is concerned Irish nationalism is a pertinent theme and his predecessors where all Irish nationalists, he was also a Catholic so that completely disproves the notion that his lineage comes from England. Your argument is pedantic and counter intuitive, it’s scarcely an argument. I sense a tad of vitriol with regards to the Irish, does their literary superiority irk you?

>> No.12577810

>>12577795
>The majority of these writers had a greater affinity with Ireland than they could have ever had with England
No they didn't, Poe was a WASP yank and Stoker and Wilde spent most of their like in England
>A disproportionate number infact, it wouldn’t be beyond reckoning in asserting that the Irish have surpassed the English at their own language.
Only the poorly educated believe that

>> No.12577821

>>12577808
I'm just telling you the facts, the Joyce line is probably English

>> No.12577853

>>12577821
It’s not a fact. A surname doesn’t dictate his genetic makeup or nationality.

>>12577810
>Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde
Yes, quite English indeed. Why are you attempting to sever the link between the Irish and Anglo-Irish literary pantheons of which both are mutually intelligible and claim it to be English? It’s nonsensical. All of these authors would have considered themselves Anglo-Irish or even completely Irish, its a pedantic argument to say they were English. It is not the fault of the Irish that 90% of their population were illiterate peasantry and that writing was the preserve of the upper echelons throughout the epoch of Victorian literary expression, the Irish have proven themselves to be formidable writers in 20th century literature and will probably continue that illustrious tradition throughout the 21st century. Can you not concede that?

>> No.12577872

>>12577773
You meant to say modern literature is just a copy of Irish literature, right?

James Joyce invented the modern novel. He did it, an Irishman. Without Ulysses there are no giga-novel, there is no meme trilogy, there is no Gravity's Rainbow, there is no Infinite Jest, there is no Gass, there is no Joshua Cohen or David Eggers. There is no enormous self-referencing tome that encapsulates seemingly every available style and life event and yet manages to establish a coherent structure out of a swirling explosion of detail.

James Joyce invented the modern short story. He did, an Irishman. He created the religious-like epiphanic realization in the midst of the banal and mundane reality. Without Joyce there is no free indirect discourse realist New Yorker story that hinges upon an emotional revelation, there is no Richard Yates or John Cheever or Raymond Carver or even fucking Cat Person.

James Joyce essentially brought modernism to prose. It would not be unfair to say he created literary modernism and proved more influential and creative than Pound. So when you say Irish modern literature is just a copy of better ones, you are outting yourself as a double-digit IQ mouthbreathing retard who doesn't know what he's saying and has never read anything more challenging than a Wikipedia article. James Joyce IS modern literature. Irish literature is responsible for the existence of modern literature, period. End of story. Full stop. James Joyce created your moronic brain and generously raised it to a higher cognitive platform. So the next time you see an ugly pasty mick, remember to tell him thank you for making you, a total retard, a tensy bit less of an intellectually disabled illiterate.

>> No.12577882

>>12577872
>You meant to say modern literature is just a copy of Irish literature, right?
no, i didn't mean to say that. it was a joke how Ulysses is based on the Odyssey, and is a work of "modernism".

>> No.12577888

>>12577882
>it was a joke how
it was a joke *about* how

>> No.12577892

>>12577853
>It’s not a fact. A surname doesn’t dictate his genetic makeup or nationality.
It's a pretty clear indication of origins most of the time

Look man I don't feel that strongly about someone like Oscar Wilde being Irish or not. I just find it funny when plastic paddies shit on England all the time and extol these 'Irish' writers who are descended from Englishman who received an English education and spoke English as their first language and in many cases lived in in England for most of their life.

I'm not even English I just like to point out the hypocrisy of the butthurt anti-anglos

>> No.12577898

>>12577872
also lol @ how steamed you got because you thought my dumb joke was a serious critique of irish literature

>> No.12577909

>>12577872
I'm assuming this anon is joking but there actually people out there who think this

>> No.12577916

>>12577759
>Joyce’s ancestors were Irish nationalists.
What the fuck does that have to do with "English blood".

>> No.12577922

>>12577784
>because they have Anglo-Saxon last names, they are thus 100% Anglo-Saxon in ancestry and no Gael or Celt has EVER inserted his pale white cock into their ancestors quivering English pussies or injected his virile Irish seed into their fertile English wombs
Imagine having an IQ so low that you actually believe this

>> No.12577927

>>12577922
Surnames come from the paternal line, so consider whose cock was inserted where

>> No.12577932

>>12577922
>Taking your mothers surname
...are you from Sweden?

>> No.12577936

>>12577892
You’re wrong, religion and nationality would be a much more concise indicator of national identity in 20th century Ireland and in this circumstance Joyce was a Catholic and self ascribed Irishman (not that he’s ever had to clarify this, only an autist like (You) would bring something so minute into question to get one over on the ‘plastic paddies’), therefore it can reasonably and objectively be concluded that Joyce deviates from the Anglican Ascendency and is therefore not of English descent, not only is your entire argument complete guesswork, the very origins of the name Joyce are disputed, they could be Norman or they could be Breton so that just makes your assertion ever more dubious, not only this, but the Catholic Norman’s who came to Ireland in the 12th century assimilated, the old adage infamously remarked them as having become “More Irish than the Irish themselves”. How counter-intuitive is that? Conversing with you is an excruciating process.

>> No.12577944

>>12577916
Since when is Catholic Norman or Breton or possibly neither “English blood”? It’s not English blood.

>> No.12577968

There are some petty Anglo niggers ITT rn

>> No.12577988

>>12577936
>>12577944
Normans who settled in England 1000 years ago are generally considered English

>> No.12577999

>>12577988
Why don’t you contextualise it properly? Normans of French genetic stock settle in England in the 11th century and then subsequently an offshoot of this group come to Ireland in the 12th century and assimilate into the native Gaelic culture. Not English, never will be you dense fucking ape.

>> No.12578002

Wilde is an awful writer, Joyce is also an extremely overrated meme usually liked by tryhards who want to seem 'intellectual' by reading difficult fiction. I like Yeats though.

Who are the other big Irish writers? There really aren't that many of them

>> No.12578019

>>12577999
Normans were of Scandinavian genetic stock if you want to contextualise it properly

>> No.12578040

>>12577381
What a novel take on même arrows. This has had an impact on me.

>> No.12578205
File: 65 KB, 520x520, 14172377_f520[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12578205

>>12577922
>>12577932
>it is impossible that a man with an Anglo-Saxon surname could ever have received his Irish ancestry from a man
You are so fucking stupid that I can actually physically feel myself becoming stupider the more I speak with you. You are cognitive fucking poison, speaking to you folks and explaining why what you're saying violates laws of biology taught to primary schoolgirls is the intellectual equivalent to huffing household cleaning supplies.

Poe is a good example: his IRISH side comes from the POE part of his name. His oldest ancestor with the name "Poe" was probably named after a prominent English doctor in Ireland who delivered him and thousands of other Irish babies. The first Poe's life was spent as a dumb Irish peasant, farming and squeezing out more mick kids. Those mick kids eventually emigrated to America, fucked English girls and spread their Celtic genes from Boston to Virginia

pic related, it's Nat "Turner": a guy who according to the /pol/-educated NEET geneticists of 4chan, is obviously a 100% fully English man who was exclusively descended from Anglo-Saxons on his father's side.

>> No.12578233

>>12578205
The Poe family were Protestants, they were probably English descent but either way they had long abandoned any Irishness they had by the time Edgar was born (an anglo-saxon name)

>> No.12578250

>>12577374
>>12577616
>>12577784
>>12577788
WE

>> No.12578255

why do americans want to be irish so badly?

>> No.12578258

>The absolute state of Iirishfags in this thread

>> No.12578267

>>12578255
Because for many Irish-Americans there is a tangible link between them and Ireland and thus they feel an affinity with Ireland. Why are the Englishmen in this thread trying to LARP Irish writers?

>> No.12578295

>>12578267
>Why are the Englishmen in this thread trying to LARP Irish writers?
Well the funny thing here is that England has a much more tangible link to Ireland than America does.

>> No.12578318

>>12577100
>Stirring up resentment between two nationalities

Back to >>>/int/ shitlord

>> No.12578319
File: 54 KB, 1200x1200, b49.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12578319

>>12578267
>Because for many Irish-Americans there is a tangible link between them and Ireland and thus they feel an affinity with Ireland.

>> No.12578328

>>12578233
John Poe (the first Poe) was likely a Catholic as he was a simple Irish peasant who was not part of the Ascendancy and, as already explained, likely not of English descent. The Poe family probably only would have become Protestant upon emigrating to America and fucking English American girls
>they had long abandoned any Irishness
If you can just ex post facto disregard the genes of a particular writer whenever is convenient for 4channers, then Yeats and the other Irish nationalist members of the Ascendancy are obviously pure 100% Irish since they "abandoned" their Englishness, associated England with gray money-obsessed mediocrity, and the conceit of this thread is immediately pointless and self-defeating since the Anglo-Irish writers OP denies credit for often considered themselves "more Irish than the Irish."

>> No.12578333

>>12578255
>why do I keep getting BTFO so consistently and eruditely
Gift of the gab, my friend

>> No.12578336

>>12578328
It’s no use, you’re conversing with a sub 90 IQ subhuman

>> No.12578342

>>12578328
I don't think really abandoned their englishness if they preferred living there

>> No.12578366

>>12577788

Normans are not English either then. They came from Scandinavia originally.

>> No.12578373

>>12578366
They're considered English

>> No.12578381

>>12578373
No they aren’t

>> No.12578389

>>12577988

God you're retarded

>Normans settled in England 1000 years ago so they're English

>Normans settled in Ireland 950 years ago, but they stopped over in England so they are also English

>> No.12578392

>>12578342
>what is the Celtic Revival
Yeats literally purchased an ancient Irish tower, gave it an Irish name, lived in the Irish tower, and wrote Irish nationalist poetry and prose from its top floor, wherein he explicitly addressed his rejection of Englishness both culturally and politically and made frequently acknowledgement of his preference for Irish culture, which he drew upon extensively as he wrote his poems for his Irish audiences

But yeah dude, all Anglo-Irish writers preferred living in England and considered themselves English. You're really reaching now and it's getting embarrassing.

>> No.12578393

>>12578389
May I add this furthermore

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Irish_than_the_Irish_themselves

The assertion that a Catholic Irishman with an ambiguously Norman surname (disputable as to whether Joyce is actually a Norman surname) is English is just preposterous and erroneous.

>> No.12578399

>>12578392
yeah but come on, the Celtic revival was flimsy plastic thing and is dead today

t. Celt

>> No.12578406

>>12578389
>>12578393
You're making the mistake of assuming the Joyce line settled in Ireland in the first invasion of the 1100s when it was likely a much later wave after England adopted surnames

>> No.12578410

>>12578373

How exactly are a group of people who originated in Scandinavia, settled in northern France for 200 years and spoke French, conquered England, then left shortly after to settle in Ireland, considered English? One of the first things anyone learns about the Normans in Ireland is that they adopted gaelic customs and became "more Irish than the Irish themselves"

>> No.12578412

>>12578399
>flimsy plastic thing
It’s just excuse after excuse, you’re really grasping. I don’t give a fuck if you’re a “celt”, the Irish literary revival was an organic, refined and enlightened intellectual and cultural innovation. If you can’t appreciate that then you should dive head first into traffic.

>> No.12578419

>>12578406
It’s very probable because anybody of English descent who settled in Ireland after the Normans subscribed to the Anglican Church, Joyce and his family were espoused heavily to the Catholic faith, if you read the literature you’d know this but instead you just keep grasping and getting refuted.

>> No.12578421

>>12578410
I'm referring to the Normans who settled in England, mongoloid

>> No.12578430

>>12578419
The Anglican Church didn't exist until the 1600s and not all English people are protestants

>> No.12578431

>>12578421
Of which Joyce would not have been related to. You’re the fucking mongoloid you mentally stunted amoeba.

>> No.12578443

>>12578430
The 1600’s is whenever the second great wave of colonization took place in Ireland (the Cromwellian settlement), English Catholics did not settle Ireland at that time. It was exclusively Anglican.

>> No.12578446

>>12578421

What the fuck do the Normans who settled in England have to do with the Irish? You're making the argument that Irish writers like Joyce are English by blood because of Norman heritage.
That Norman heritage is from Norman Lord's who settled in Ireland, not the later prods who arrived during the plantations.

>> No.12578445

>>12578431
>Of which Joyce would not have been related to.
No, there is a good chance he is, cry all you want about it

>> No.12578454

>>12578431
>>12578443
>>12578446
you need to seriously question your mental health if you are this triggered by the thought of James Joyce having English blood (which he probably did)

>> No.12578468

>>12578445
If he is an Irish Catholic then no, it is extremely unlikely.

>>12578454
No, you’re the mentally ill individual who created this thread for the sole purpose of attempting to sully the Irish literary tradition, and having failed, have resorted to shitposting nonsensical ramblings. Get your head examined.

>> No.12578474

>>12578468
I'm not the OP, you're crazy

>> No.12578481

>>12578454

Joyce may well have some amount of English blood; I'm sure most Irish do. Just as most English have some Irish ancestry. You're just patently wrong in trying to paint Joyce as somehow being English through some obscure genealogy that you can't seem to explain

>> No.12578491

>>12578481
>You're just patently wrong in trying to paint Joyce as somehow being English through some obscure genealogy that you can't seem to explain
I'm not, I said he probably has English ancestors and he probably does

>> No.12578492

>>12578474
The mental gymnastics you have jumped through to reach the conclusion you have must be immense.

>> No.12578495

POTATONIGGERS MAD IN THIS THREAD LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>> No.12578497

>>12578491

Hitler probably had a Jew or two in his family tree somewhere; doesn't make him one

>> No.12578499

>>12578497
who said he was?

>> No.12578506

>>12578491
What evidence have you of this? Absolutely none. A Norman (disputedly, could be Breton) surname. That does not signify English ancestry. It’s all speculation whereas outside of your demented mind Joyce is discernibly and unequivocally Irish.

What you’re actually trying to do is to detract from a viscerally prestigious literary tradition, it’s intellectually dishonest and counterintuitive. You’re an idiot and should just quit.

>> No.12578510

>>12578495
All I can see is impotent Anglo rage because of their objective inferiority at their own language. I’m not even Irish.

>> No.12578520

>>12578506
Joyce was a syphilitic charlatan, his fans are usually schizophrenics

>> No.12578523

>>12578520
stop talking about yourself

>> No.12578525

>>12578523
I'm not a Joyce fan!

>> No.12578533

>>12578525
You’re still a nutjob. I recognise your posts. I know who you are. You should switch your autistic posting style up lest you dox yourself boy.

>> No.12578538
File: 120 KB, 554x400, 7b1.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12578538

>>12578533
I just came back from a long ban so you are wrong

>> No.12578552

>>12578510
Irish people are Anglos though

>> No.12578560

>>12578552
I always knew Shakespeare was an Irishman

>> No.12578601

>>12577100
Bait aside, Ireland has always had some great literatures; however I've noticed how little of them ever wrote in irish and in the rare occassion that they did, it was probably out of sheer national pride. I say this as an Irish nationalist myself, fluent in Gaeilge, the irish language is extremely limited compared to English. After all, it never had any of the giant nationwide literary movements that english did. There was never an irish shakespeare. But still the republic insists on using the language to teach children in schools. If there was ever an easier and quicker way to make someone despise something from a very young age, it was to make it mandatory in school.
>>12577784
its almost like ireland was invaded by anglos or something

>> No.12578616

>>12578601
the same thing happened in Wales they made the Welsh language compulsory and everybody here hates it

>> No.12579009
File: 977 KB, 315x228, Big Mick lauging.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12579009

Just because someone has a Norman or Anglo-Saxon name doesn't mean they aren't Irish by blood, all that means is that somewhere along the paternal lineage is a Norman or Anglo-Saxon, which is the case for almost all Irishmen. Fucking gobshites.

>> No.12579436

>>12577100
>their ancient literature just copy better ones like the Odyssey (Irish one is Voyage of Mael Duin) or just try to copy beats and themes like their shitty version of the Iliad (theirs is called the Raid)

You moron, they're all based on the same ancient accounts and the Tuatha De Danann are the same people as the Danaans (Acheans) in the Iliad and Odyssey.

>> No.12579469

>>12578601
>I say this as an Irish nationalist myself, fluent in Gaeilge, the irish language is extremely limited compared to English.
M8 even an seabhac is better in Irish. Irish allows for irony on levels that haven't been seen since the temple at Delphi was running its dual edged tongue though the politics of every Mediterranean city state.
>never an irish shakespeare
is this some playboy / plough and the stars riots intergenerational PTSD or are you ignoring all the dramatists and bards for some other non nationalistic reason?

>> No.12579489

>>12579009
lol, anglo'd

>> No.12579534

>>12578406
You're making the mistake of thinking Joyce is a spelling that could exist before the letter j in English and thinking the Irish name Seoige from which it's transliterated was not present in Irish before the Norman invasion. The problem arises because St Joyce, as he would later be known, lived in 7th C Brittany, and the Irish adoption of English surnames and male primogeniture being a millennium later at least. No wonder /his/ is a shitshow.

>> No.12579583

>>12579009
There's very few Anglo Saxons mixed in. Ireland has weird genetic clusters that make them and the Scottish more like the Vikings. Some places it's more common for your ancestry to include Tuareg than Angle or Saxon. Anglo Saxons aren't even that common in England because Jutes and more northern Germanics took over major areas. It's not like the Picts started breeding with the Angles because they got kicked out of Kent, since people tend to fuck locally if not an invading force.

>> No.12579597

>>12579583
>implying Irish sluts haven't been opening their legs for Anglo soldiers since time immemorial

>> No.12579951

>>12577374
>differentiating the Normans from Scandinavians
literally the exact same apart from language spoken

the upper class were Anglos though

>> No.12579963

>>12577784
my family's last name is Montague, which isn't Irish. it was changed from McTeague long ago, but that name change doesn't make my family not Irish.

>> No.12579974

>>12579963
if your family wanted to continue being Irish they would not have changed it, plastic paddy

>> No.12579982

>>12578373
No they're fucking not lmao, the Normans were never anything more than the ruling aristocracy. By this logic, the anglo ascendency you claim are English are in fact Irish because they rules Ireland.

>> No.12580033

>>12579974
yeah alright mate I'll pass that on to my long dead ancestors

>> No.12580048

Yeah you could say I'm a member of the IDF

Ireland
Defense
Forces

Online division, Cyber Brigadier 1st Class