Individualism vs Collectivism

[Anonymous No.12513803]

Which makes more sense?

[Anonymous No.12513853]

>>12513803
By that chart, collectivism sounds closer to the ideals of Christ, so I would go with that.

[Anonymous No.12513859]

neither, morality functions based on higher ideals

[Anonymous No.12513894]

I am collectivist but sure as shit am not egalitarian, and the collective for me is family, neighborhood and church, not the government

[Anonymous No.12513983]

>>12513803
A mixture of both. Western society is individualistic, however the culture unites people in a way that creates a somewhat collective social boundary

[Anonymous No.12514124]

Mixed

[Anonymous No.12514140]

Individualism is where culture and social structures go to die

[Anonymous No.12514149]

>>12514140
You fucking idiot, just shut the fuck up. You're spewing nonsense, you worthless imbecile.

[Anonymous No.12514200]

>>12514149
Cope

[Anonymous No.12514372]

>>12514140
If this is true, then why did the individualist America survive while collectivist Soviet Union dissolved?

[Anonymous No.12514376]

>>12514372
Not him, but around the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a high time for Crony Capitalism. Which destroys the individual.

[Anonymous No.12514384]

>>12513803
there is no ideology that can be described as purely individualist or collectivism because those are useless terms for defining political organization. nearly every society includes elements of both and the characteristics used to describe them are vague as fuck. stop spreading this meme dichotomy.

[Anonymous No.12514453]

>>12514372
Why did the collectivist east stay based and pretty redpilled while the individualist west became cucked and full of soiboys and niggers?

[Anonymous No.12514460]

>>12514200
Eat shit.

[Anonymous No.12514473]

>>12513803
Which one spawned the other into existence and gave a great deal of the worlds wealth to the other? The whole world is at competition as individuals, as social groups, as nations. Collecivists are just playing the same games on a grander stage because at some point the same adaptations come through in their play methods.

[Anonymous No.12514786]

>>12513803
False dichotomy for 17 year olds.

[Anonymous No.12514906]

>>12513983
>Western society is individualistic

i wish this meme would fucking die.

[Anonymous No.12514972]

>>12513853
How did the individualist values emerge in the Christian part of the world, in this case? I have always wondered this

[Anonymous No.12514979]

>>12513803
define sense

[Anonymous No.12515320]

>>12514972
liberal degeneration

[Anonymous No.12515606]

>>12513803
God I hate that "western individual, eastern collective" meme. It's got absolutely no basis in reality. Like, shit dude, literally the most famous eastern philosophies are zen and daoism, both of which are intensely individualistic. Sure, there's Confucianism...in the same way western philosophy has Plato's social contract. It's just a bunch of bullshit spewed by American corporations in the 80s to make them feel better about Japan outmanoeuvring them.

/reee

[Anonymous No.12515609]

>>12513803
>cooperative
>self-sacrificing
>sensitive
>connected
>moderate/traditional
>eastern
This dude clearly does not know very much about east Asian societies.

Also;
>equalitarian
?

[Anonymous No.12515611]

>>12513803
Depends on the individual and the collectivist agenda in question

[Anonymous No.12515626]

>>12513803
This is hardly true anymore. East Asian countries now have Protestant work ethic on steroids. Japanese, Chinese and Korean people today are extremely competitive with little care for the socially disadvantaged.

[Anonymous No.12515645]

Individualism literally makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint
If humans did not develop complex social structures they would have died out long ago but instead they became the most dominant species on the planet through that very mechanism
The thing is it is true that western society is relatively more individualist however if you just compare literally any human society even the most primitive to an actual solitary species you can see that they are still extremely codependent and they must be to have any degree of productivity
Humans are really just sad weak little parasites that can only rely on numbers and their environment to get anywhere but lucky for them the world seems to be built in a way that favors just such a creature

[Anonymous No.12515734]

Indivisualism doesn't exist as all individualists got mauled to death back in stone age. Sheer physicality of human existence means that whichever mode of interaction can bring more physically-capable, potentially harmful biomass to the table, gets to live and procreate. Also known as mob rule. No human ever voiced an opinion that a mob didn't like and lived to tell the tale.

[Anonymous No.12515753]

>>12513803
individualistic collectivism

[Anonymous No.12515758]

>>12514372
>individualist America
no such thing, America was a collectivizing project that erased many of the previous ethnic backgrounds of the people who went there and integrated them into what progressives like to call now "whiteness", which is funny because "whiteness" was created by the progressives of the past

[Anonymous No.12515766]

>>12514972
protestantism is the same as individualism

[Anonymous No.12515772]

>>12515606
>zen and daoism, both of which are intensely individualistic
>just do what's natural
>individualistic
yeah, no
>>12515626
>East Asian countries now have Protestant work ethic on steroids. Japanese, Chinese and Korean people today are extremely competitive
i don't know about the others, but didn't it turn out that the japanese spent millions of hours at work but their actual productivity was shit? so just appearance of productivity

[Anonymous No.12515773]

>>12513803

This >>12514786

The expanded possibilities of individualism are built upon the foundation of healthy collectivism. The paradigms are inexorably intertwined and reciprocal. Evidence abounds that shifting too far in either direction is maladaptive.

At most we can say that the biological collective is the source of potential, and any ideology or competing collectives which threaten that are the most urgent sort of threat (at least until we're all engineered superhumans or whatever) .

[Anonymous No.12515775]

>>12514972
Protestantism. Basically an overreaction to some of the corrupt control Catholism at the time had over the population meant that Protestants went the opposite way and started worshiping the individual, personal wealth, etc. If every man can interpret God as he sees fit, inevitably 98% of them will interpret God to sanction their own personal desires.

[Anonymous No.12515776]

>>12515766
You must be a fucking idiot. This is one of the fucking dumbest thing I've read. No they are not the same, you mentally handicapped cunt. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I’m sorry. I can’t go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don’t have enough strength left to even address the ridiculousness of saying protestantism is the same as fucking individualism. What fucking drivel. You're a worthless piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.12515831]

I believe pokemon go at it's high was peak humanity. Everyone was oriented towards a similar goal, everyone having fun, being friendly with each other, helping each other. Now we just need a way to do that consistently and in direction of higher goal and we are set.

[Anonymous No.12515837]

>>12515758
There is whiteness, if you'd bother to look at some genetic clustering data you'd see that Europeans are considerably more closely related to eachother than to other ethnicities.

America was almost exclusively built by the peoples represented by blue markers in the European cluster on this graph. Very closely related indeed. Also, you'll note that the populations on the edge of that cluster line up quite well with what your eyes tell you about who is less white (swarthy).

[Anonymous No.12515850]

>>12515776
you know in your heart that protestantism is the same as individualism, that's why the buttblast of denial made you write that

[Anonymous No.12515856]

>>12515837
america was just an anglo colony, it lost its identity when it started to pretend it wasn't and that catholics are "just americans" as well

[Anonymous No.12515869]

>>12515837
lmao at this dude posting a principal components plot of genes. Obviously populations that are closer together share DNA because DNA comes from having breeding. A white guy in 1380's Germany isn't breeding with a Chinamen. You don't need to make a plot with undefinable axes derived from matrix decomposition to realize that people breed with people nearer to them.

[Anonymous No.12515875]

>>12515856
Pretty much.

[Anonymous No.12515883]

>>12515869
What is your point exactly?

[Anonymous No.12515887]

>>12515883
that your graph may as well have been a physical proximity graph without having to know what DNA is

[Anonymous No.12515908]

>>12515887
Which relates to the existence of whiteness and the genetic relatedness of the people who built America how?

[Anonymous No.12515916]

>>12515908
there's plenty of white people who have nothing to do with america

[Anonymous No.12515923]

>>12515908
Shut up.

[Anonymous No.12515938]

>>12515923
Go fuck yourself.

[Anonymous No.12515941]

>>12515916
I agree.

[Anonymous No.12515949]

>>12515908
>existence of whiteness
sure you can add '-ness' to an adjective used to describe an abstract thing. If we want to call an area on some decomposed graphplot "the white" area, then of course it exists. In other words, whiteness exists because it is an abstract term you are defining, i.e. its existence is entirely a tautology based on the fact that you defined it to exist. And as a mathematical point, matrix decompositions are not unique... as in I can rotate the same genetic data and get a different plot. I know thats too much math for this board already, but it just makes me laugh when folks try to use science and math to make a point and have no idea what they're showing.

But that's trivial point. The original anon you were replying to was talking about the construction of the term "whiteness" for an abstract concept. You are doing the same thing.

[Anonymous No.12515978]

>>12513803
False dichotomy.

[Anonymous No.12516107]

>>12515949
You're being disingenuous. There is spectrum of the abstract, it's not just a binary 1 or 0. Some concepts are very self-referential, others quite faithfully describe something concrete. Generally speaking, taxonomy is partially arbitrary because what we describe are also spectrums (colours, species, etc.); yet you must admit that these categories do describe actual similarities in the objects we apply them to.

Back to the data, are you denying the relative genetic relatedness of Europeans (northern ones, at least)? I understand that you can get a different plot, but isn't that mostly a matter of scale? How could you 'rotate' the data to remove the general clustering of populations with more similar genetic marker profiles?

[Anonymous No.12517041]

>>12515772
>yeah, no
...How not so? They both explicitly reject the idea that anything outside of yourself should guide you, and Zen focuses more on the individual's path to enlightenment than other strains of Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.12517052]

>>12515883
That you don't know what you're talking about

[Anonymous No.12517481]

>>12517041
>They both explicitly reject the idea that anything outside of yourself should guide you
no, they deny there's such a thing as an inside of yourself, so talking about an outside of yourself is meaningless

[Anonymous No.12517520]

>>12517481
I don't see any relevant difference.