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/lit/ - Literature

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12505706 No.12505706 [Reply] [Original]

alright anon, time to prove you're not a pseud.

what is the Iliad about?

>> No.12505719

>>12505706
The rage of Achilles

>> No.12505735

>>12505706
the Turks

>> No.12505743

Yaoi purest form of love and wicked jezebels try to fool us different

>> No.12505764

>>12505719
W R A T H
R
A
T
H

>> No.12505778

Achilles and his canonical lover Patroclus

>> No.12505784

>>12505764
Shit

Well I'm a pseud

>> No.12505788

>>12505706

Trade routes and taxation

>> No.12505795

Stabbing people in the nipples

>> No.12505803

>>12505764
anger, actually

>> No.12505822

Honor, the importance of duty and male friendship, the fickleness of women, the futility of resisting fate, the glory and horror of war.

>> No.12505876

>>12505822
incel lol

>> No.12505889
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12505889

>>12505706
The Strength of diversity. There are white ones, black ones, yellow ones, and red ones. (Don't forget the necrophiliacs looking for dead ones)

>> No.12505900

>>12505795
wrongest answer

>> No.12505905

>>12505784
>>12505803
its all just translation choices

>> No.12505906

>>12505706
pride

>> No.12505911

>>12505706
Toxic Masculinity

>> No.12505913

>>12505706
An endless categorization of ships

>> No.12505940

>>12505706
The fatality of wrath and war and the necessity to maintain honor and compassion in the face of them.

>> No.12505962

>>12505706
>Yo, bitch, tell me boutta hard ass nigga
>That sacked dem hoods of Troy

>> No.12505990
File: 35 KB, 657x527, 1546241486553.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12505990

>>12505706
the Trojan war

>> No.12506039

>>12505822
>fickleness
Of Helen, rather, whose fickleness is brought forward by contrast with Andromache's solidity (and yet she feels guilt despite being possessed by a daimon). Woman is also made thematic as a chattel, as a supremely observant (but ignored) evaluator of events, and as both a muse and the most competent of the actively participant gods (Athena is both to Odysseus).

>> No.12506069

>>12505990
but it begins after the start of the war & ends before the finish

>> No.12506073

>>12505962
more please

>> No.12506131

I really liked the part with the wooden horse. Can't believe they fell for it lol.

>> No.12506160

aliens

>> No.12506220

>>12505706
everything that matters

>> No.12506322

>>12506131
-_-

>> No.12506351

>>12506131
bait

>> No.12506352
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12506352

The evil of women.

>> No.12506370

Για την οργή του Αχιλλέα

>> No.12506380

How war is really shit but also really cool at the same time. But also honor, mortality, heroism and stuff.

>> No.12506590

>>12505940
Best answer so far.

>> No.12506623

>>12506590
eh? it's wrong

>> No.12506624

>>12505706
Honor.

>> No.12506636

>>12506623
It's my answer and I didn't even read the Iliad. Still 100% the best.

t. Achilles

>> No.12506736

>>12506039
love this answer.

imo, the fickleness of women is not a main theme of the epic. its certainly a component, but its more interesting to think about how women are used by the men around them (and how other men respond when they feel their female property has been somehow sullied)

>> No.12506759

>>12506069
It still explores or mentions most of it.

>> No.12506780

>>12506759
the original commenter youre replying to was clearly joking but it seems like youre being serious.

thats like saying Hamlet is about Denmark because thats the setting

>> No.12506838

>>12506759
its literally the story of the anger of achilles (it says so in the first line)
it starts with him getting mad and ends with him getting briseis back, accepting agamemnon’s compensation, and giving back hectors corpse

>> No.12506874

>>12506736
>genuinely talking about gender politics in the iliad
don't, i have a weak stomach

>> No.12506962

>>12506874
>straight up ignoring a major component of a play because gender politics offend you

lemme guess, you also immediately scoff at anyone who says achilles and patroclus were lovers

>> No.12506967

>>12506874
Dif anon
Briseis (not Patroclus) is at the very heart of Achilles wrath- that's just a fact. No iota of 'fickleness of woman' involved here, just male vanity at its most outrageous

>> No.12506971

>>12506962
it's a poem

>> No.12506972

>>12506838
>reading poetry 100% literally

okay, i guess its actually not about honor or war or pride or any of its other themes bc the first line said "anger"

>> No.12506978

>>12506971
ah fuck, my bad. what a pseud move. i promise i didnt mean to say play

>> No.12506997

>>12506967
good analysis that will fall on deaf ears. 90% sure the dude youre replying to is a "but they couldnt POSSIBLY be talking about toxic masculinity in a major work of Western Literature!!" chud

>> No.12507004

>>12506874
"but daddy peterson told me gender studies was fake and gay!"

>> No.12507051

>>12506972
the first line said sing to me muse the anger of achilles
and did you read the second sentence of my post?

also no of course it's not about honour - no one comes out well in that story

>> No.12507063

>>12506967
well it's not male vanity is it, you can just say 'vanity' surely
he didn't care about briseis or patroclus only himself

>> No.12507111

>>12506967
>>12506997
iconoclasts trying to topple the pillar holding up western canon,your insidiously perverted perspective can fuck off.

>> No.12507128

>>12507051
...what do you think the word honor means?

>> No.12507136

>>12507063
the vanity portrayed by achilles is focused on stereotypically male pursuits and interests

>> No.12507144

>>12507111
you dont even know what the western canon means or stands for. i bet you couldnt even name 5 integral western works without googling it.

>> No.12507147

>>12507128
dignity, glory, fame earned

>>12507111
yikes
this isn't me btw

>> No.12507149

>>12507111
imagine being so intellectually poisoned by red pill youtube "philosophers" that you completely misinterpret the western canon

>> No.12507177

>>12507136
like what, out of curiosity?
still, that doesn't separate it from any other sort of vanity does it

>> No.12507202

>>12507147
i think what you mean to say is that the poem subverts our expectations of what honor looks like.

i dont say this often, since its reductive, but you honestly cannot argue that honor isnt a key theme of the book. yes, it opens with "lets talk about the rage of achilles" and then the rest of book one is about a dispute between him and agamemnon because the latter refuses to give up a spoil of war. how is that not about "dignity, glory, fame earned"?

i really hope youre just misspeaking. if not you might want to read this again

>> No.12507206

>>12505706
It’s about Paris being a fucking faggot, the wrong brother died

>> No.12507210

>>12505706
gay love desu

>> No.12507214

>>12507177
...what are you getting at with your first sentence?

it 100% separates it from other sorts of vanity. theres a huge difference between "im going to sit in front of the mirror all day and twirl my golden locks" and "im going to use the lives of men as toys because i dont want to appear weak".

>> No.12507223

>>12507063
This isn't a bad reflect-
Why not irreverence, even blasphemy, treating the daughter of Apollo's foremost priest, herself a queen, like a whore (or chattel). Pretty fucked up. But yeah Achilles is about himself and his own glory and yet begins by fucking even this up and so the penalties accrue-- concluding with the death of Patroclus.

>> No.12507226

>>12505706
It was about Achilles. Fuck the rest.

>> No.12507252

what is the Iliad about?
>tfw no bf

>> No.12507256

Duty, destiny and justifying the way of the Gods to man.

>> No.12507259

>>12505706
uh, honor in battle? National heroes?

>> No.12507261

OP here.

>>12505719
>>12505822
>>12505906
>>12505911
>>12505913
>>12505940 **
>>12506039 **
>>12506380
>>12507210

above are all the correct answers, with asterisks by my favorites. Congrats, posters: you are true intellectuals

below are all the incorrect answers. misery upon you, for you are Pseuds. please leave my board at once

>>12506352
>>12506759
>>12506838
>>12506874
>>12507111

>> No.12507280

>>12507202
i think you're misspeaking. how does achilles watching his comrades slaughted to spite agamemnon constitute dignity, glory or fame earned? unless you mean dishonour is a key theme.

>> No.12507290

>>12507261
>the Iliad is about gay love
Athenian and Hellenic Age revisionism. The relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is a friendship mixed in with your usual aristocratic warrior bond which was encouraged to keep your sons alive.

>> No.12507300

>>12507280
dude.

if dishonor is a key theme. that means honor is also a key theme.

youre talking about a subversion of the contemporary ideals of honor and glory.

>> No.12507304

It's about death and the acceptance of it.
Hector knows full well what's coming for him, Achilles too. They choose to live honorably (another major theme as other anons have noted) to give some meaning to their deaths. That's why the loss of Brisies pissed him off so much. Achilles knew he was fated to die young and gloriously, or old and obscure. Taking away his prize is to undermine the honor he was willing to accept in the wake of death.

The Iliad is so enduring because it has so many meanings. The wickedness of war, the nature of God and man, anger, etc.

I like the metaphysical side of the story as well. Helen speaking to Paris says, "On us two Zeus set a vile destiny; so that hereafter we shall be made into things of song for the men of the future." (6.357)

Interesting stuff for sure.

>> No.12507310

>>12507290
yeah a warrior bond between achilles' dick and patroclus' ass

>> No.12507380

>>12507300
listen, saying honour is a key theme in the iliad is untenable.

>>12507214
that's male & female vanity?
that seems like dollar book psychology to me

>> No.12507392

>>12507380
thats exactly what it is. because this is a dollar store question. pretending that vanity takes the same shape in men and women is ridiculous and easily disproven.

"listen, i dont have any more arguments for why youre wrong, but i still want to look like im coming out of this on top by being condescending. please dont respond"

>> No.12507450

And wonder took hold of the
deathless gods and mortal men when they saw that which was sheer guile, not to be
withstood by men.
(ll. 590-612) For from her is the race of women and female kind: of her is the deadly race and
tribe of women who live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, no helpmeets in hateful
poverty, but only in wealth. And as in thatched hives bees feed the drones whose nature is to
do mischief -- by day and throughout the day until the sun goes down the bees are busy and
lay the white combs, while the drones stay at home in the covered skeps and reap the toil of
others into their own bellies -- even so Zeus who thunders on high made women to be an evil to mortal men, with a nature to do evil.

The Theogony of Hesiod

>> No.12507476

>>12507310
Based

>> No.12507487

>>12507450
Funny that you would post this including the awful analogy, the sexes are completely reversed in bee colonies

>> No.12507506

troy stole a golden horse from achilles, greek hoe was used to seduce troy prince and sneak into troy to steal the horse back

>> No.12507516

>>12507450
we arent talking about theogeny, were talking about the iliad. next

>> No.12507519

>>12507392
what was the argument that proved honour was a key theme in the iliad again?

>vanity takes the same shape in men and women
i'd say they do. men look at themselves in the mirror (paris, no?) and women can heartlessly watches the massacre of men because of her own insecurity (hera)

>> No.12507523

>>12507506
this guy gets it

>> No.12507550

>>12507519
Different Anon from the one you've been arguing with. You're a pseud.

Actually, I don't even think you're a pseud. You sort of just seem wrong and stupid.

>> No.12507572

>>12507550
really? that's not good. i'm a classics student & i don't really have anything to fall back on you know

>> No.12507575

>>12507572
Go to office hours.

>> No.12507592
File: 1.81 MB, 335x237, 1548478479698.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12507592

>>12505706
Who cares? I would be a pseud if I were to read it because it literally has no genuine profundity to it.

>> No.12507599

>>12507516
it provides perspective concerning the accepted nature of women near the time of homer,i like to understanding the mentality and culture rather ten viewing homer through a modern lense.

>> No.12507601

>>12507575
eh?

>> No.12507656
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12507656

An old Sea People cultural relic repeatedly revised, it's been about a lot of things.

>> No.12507665

>>12507592
This is the correct answer.

>> No.12507673

what was priams tax policy?

>> No.12507711

>>12506997
>"but they couldnt POSSIBLY be talking about toxic masculinity in a major work of Western Literature!!"

Wait, do you seriously think Homer was talking about toxic masculinity?

>chud

lol

>> No.12507745
File: 111 KB, 736x984, c248d9d8ae76aeb75d97327768100184--percy-jackson-astral.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12507745

OwO

>> No.12507778

Pride. It is about foolish, vain pride.

Also, shitloads of gore.

>> No.12507788

>>12507280
>how does achilles watching his comrades slaughted to spite agamemnon constitute dignity, glory or fame earned?

Because Greeks from over 3000 years ago had drastically different values from you. Jesus Christ...

>> No.12507816

this thread confirms that chapocels are worse than /pol/ in terms of superimposing anachronistic modern concepts onto the past.

>> No.12507823

>>12507788
achilles is meant to be the villain of the piece, did you not pick up on that?

>> No.12507875

>>12507823
iliad doesn't do good guy bad guy,

>> No.12507895

>>12507875
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/villain-of-the-piece

>> No.12508049

>>12507823
>achilles is meant to be the villain of the piece, did you not pick up on that?

No, he fucking isn't! Achilles is objectively the hero of the story. This is not up for debate. No scholar of ancient Greek literature would find this remotely controversial. You don't seem to understand that ancient Greek notions of Virtue aren't the same as that of a hysterical feminist /lit/poster. This is a culture that saw slavery and conquest as perfectly acceptable and even moral. Yes, by our modern conception of morality, Achilles is a bad guy. He's a warlord, mass murderer, slave owner, and serial rapist, like every character in The Iliad. But Greeks from Homer's time wouldn't have seen anything inherently "immoral" about this. Homer even makes a point of describing Achilles as relatively humane in his dealing with his slaves and conquered subjects (bear in mind that he murdered the entire family of Breises before taking her as a war bride). Remember, this is a slave society in which aristocratic notions of honor and military glory are held above all else.

>> No.12508065

>>12508049
>no one in modern cucked society would write an epic with an bad guy as the hero!

have you watched star wars dumbass?

>> No.12508091

>>12507592
btfo on my own thread, gg

>> No.12508092

>>12505795
kek

>> No.12508100

>>12507599
why is Hesiods portrayal of women relevant to Homers portrayal of women? i understand that societal gender expectations were different before the fucking Common Era, no shit, but that doesnt change the fact that the two works, both equally legitimate sources, present different depictions of women

>> No.12508107

>>12507656
so basically im Hotep

>> No.12508121

>>12507711
not toxic masculinity ie the buzzwordy equivalent in our society. its a comparison. hes talking about the negative aspects of things like fighting for glory and being a rage monster and kidnapping women, providing a counterpoint for what would have normally been considered "honorable".

>> No.12508122

>>12508065
God, you're a fucking retard. That obviously isn't what I was saying and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

If you don't think Achilles is intended to be the hero, you're objectively wrong. You have shitty reading comprehension and don't understand the cultural context of the work. No one disputes any of this. No one.

You're honestly one of the dumbest people I've ever encountered on this board.

>> No.12508153

the impossibility of the will of men to transcend the will of gods

>> No.12508161

he's not a "villain" he's an anit-hero, obviously hector is the "good guy" but not the hero

>> No.12508165

>>12508049
OP. I think you've drastically misinterpreted what I'm saying about this book.

Besides this one person, who is probably joking, nobody has said that. Nobody is debating that Achilles is the hero/protagonist/"good guy" (ugh) of the Iliad.

But also, okay, so you're reading a book from another time period right? And you're looking at the way the characters are acting, ie murdering and enslaving for pride, to acquire honor and prizes, and you assume "yes. this is how things were. our heroes are doing this, the other side does this, everyone does this. its normal."

but then, as a result of the character's actions, things kinda start going downhill. a lot of good people (ie "central characters") die, the chafing that's been present the whole time is really building up, and we go "hey, maybe the authors saying something here. i mean, theres a lot of misfortune befalling these characters as a direct result of their actions. i wonder if hes trying to suggest their actions are bad?"

this is the difference between "being a historian" and "reading a book".

>> No.12508171

>>12508065
can you read? how did you get here?

>> No.12508178

>>12508165
>the other side does this

the other side didn't do that though, that's the thing

>> No.12508182

>>12507261
go back faggot
>>12507290
you’re stoopid and insecure

>> No.12508183

>>12508171
>he doesn't see the obvious influence of homer on star wars

no u

>> No.12508202

>>12508178
trojan society was not that different from achaen society. there are differences but theyre mighty subtle

>> No.12508206

The tragedy and glory of war, that's what Lindybeige told me.

>> No.12508208

>>12508183
why on earth are we talking about star wars

>> No.12508222

>>12508208
because it's a movie series based around a fucking anti-hero you got damn brainlet, there are obviously other things taken from the greeks like starting in medias res, or the son killing his father without realizing it etc, but if you want to talk about other works that imitate homer we can do milton or tasso if that would make you more comfortable

>> No.12508239

>>12508222
why are we talking about other works that imitate homer when the post is about homer

>> No.12508250

>>12505940
this

>> No.12508257

>>12508250
wrong
>>12508153
almost correct but is so earthbound and vapid i can’t condone this interpretation.

>> No.12508258

>>12508239
because homer established the anti-hero as protagonist

>> No.12508268

>>12505940
>maintain honor and compassion

where the hell is this anywhere in homer, read a book, fag

>> No.12508302

>>12508258
lemme get this straight.

your argument for "why achilles is an anti hero" is "well other things are influenced by homer, and other things have anti heroes, so achilles is an anti hero"

>> No.12508322

>>12508165
No offense, but I don't feel like arguing over this anymore.This is what Nietzsche aptly called the "premoral period of history". Notions of "good" and "bad" were not based on whether the person's actions were unselfish or relieved the suffering of their fellow man. War and slavery were seen as facts of life. Brutal facts, sure, but facts. There is certainly ambivalence in Homer's portrayal, but I think it's a misreading to interpret this ambivalence as some sort of radical call for change (what would that even entail in his world?).

>> No.12508354

>>12508322
No offense, but I'm kind of sick of you overinflating what I'm saying and putting words in my mouth. I never said that Homer is making a "radical call for change," I said that the way Homer portrays the results of characters' actions suggests something about those actions.

Maybe if you read my response, you would know that I agree with you about the way quote unquote "ethics" work in the late bronze age. i do not agree with the way you read the fucking book.

>> No.12508356

>>12508302
it's not a matter of hero's and villains man, the "homeric hero" or whatever you want to call, is the person who has agency in the story, but even then he couldn't escape his fate in the end, wow its almost like homeric tradition works are complex and not comic books you fucking brainlet god this board always has to have some retard to fuck it up

>> No.12508367

>>12508356
what the fuck are you talking about? did you respond to the wrong person? im the person arguing AGAINST achilles being called an anti hero. im the one arguing AGAINST distilling an epic poem into star wars terms, you inbred mongoloid

>> No.12508369

The desire to keep the sensation of initial penetration constant.

>> No.12508392

>>12508367
>he doens't realize the original star wars series had all kinds of greek themes which combined with extremely advanced for the effects for the time made the most loved films of the 20th century

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYGIRoJaAJg

u truly are a brainlet my friend

>> No.12508458

This thread is absolute cancer. Explaining Homer (as if he can be explained) through anti-feminism and fucking Star Wars analogies.
I propose a moratorium on discussing or mentioning the Greeks for a month. Read some Vergil or Ovid or Plautus at least, you faggots.

>> No.12508470

>>12508458
I summer up Homer perfectly.

>>12508369
Checkem

>> No.12508584
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12508584

>>12505706
It's babbys first epic war poetry that pales in front of the Mahabharata.

It's a shame that most of /lit/ will never experience the richness of narrative and characterization that is the Mahabharata. Instead, you are left with the rudimentary story that the Iliad provides. I cannot express enough how laughably juvenile it is compared to the MBH.

>> No.12508922

>>12505706
Achilles has his sex slave taken away, which leads him to become so distressed and blue-balled that he spends all the time in his tent and doesn't fight. When his war-lover Patrocles dies, he finally decides to charge into the battlefield.
if only i had a war-lover as well, knowing that he or i would avenge either of our deaths

>> No.12508926

>>12507261

Who the fuck are you?

>> No.12508944

>>12508049
homer treats achilles with irony in the iliad (like euripides did).

he assures the assembly whenever he sacks cities and adds their treasures to the common stock, agamemnon awards him only a little and takes the lion’s share himself; later, we find achilles’ hut chock-full of loot - he has been selling captured prisoners as a side-line and pocketing the proceeds.he also assures the assembly that he was sincerely enamoured of briseis; but when agamemnon at last offers to surrender her, untouched, together with an enormous compensation for his insults, achilles tells the envoys that he does not really want the girl - she means nothing to him - and that he despises treasure. his famous love of patroclus is really self-love. patroclus dies, and achilles leaves his body unburied. when the miserable ghost appears in a dream, altogether uninterested in his works of vengeance, and complains of the delay, achilles answers brusquely that he is doing everything possible to make the funeral a success, and resents having his elbow jogged. he also insists on priam’s paying a tremendous ransom for hector’s corpse: a transaction which he dishonestly hides from the privy council. nor does he respect patroclus’ wishes by honourably marrying briseis.

>> No.12508959

>>12505706
the art of spear casting

>> No.12508970

>>12505706
gay

>> No.12508975

most of the audience, aural imbibers, were plebs. they enjoyed it directly, the veritas, dignitas, all the other tases in vogue, the celebrity worship, wish fulfillment. Remember how sickeningly long the speeches about wealth go on? the whole books is just a brilliant expression of the the culture of the time and universal passions, not so much ponderous, subjective, thematic etc. it's just pure strength, because that's what they were about back then. The closest I've seen to an existential crisis in ancient Greece was diogenes, and he ended up just being the holden caulfield of the day, still focused on the objective.

>> No.12508989

>>12508944
>Diomedes rules
>Achilles drools.

FACT

>> No.12508990

>reading makes u smart
the absolute state of lit

>> No.12509075

>>12505706
Ancient modern Hellenic meme

Πάνω στης Τροίας τα βουνά που 'ναι σαν kωλομέρια
kαθότανε ο Όμηρος με την ψωλή στα χέρια
Καθώς μαλαkιζότανε kαι σkόρπιζε το χύσι
θεία του ήρθε έμπνευση το έπος του ν' αρχίσει.
- Μεγάλε Αγαμέμνονα, μας kλέψαν το Λενάkι
kαι τώρα άλλος χαίρεται το τρυφερό μουνάkι.
- Σώπα kαι συ Μενέλαε, τον π**στη θα τον βρούμε
kαι θα του μάθουμε kαλά πως τέτοιους τους γαμούμε.
Έφυγε η ξέkωλη αυτή kαι πήγε με τον Πάρη
λες kαι δεν έχουμε kαι μεις αρχίδια kαι παπάρι.
Μα εμπρός στην Τροία ας στείλουμε χήνες, παπιά kαι kότες
μουνόπανα, kωλόπανα kι ένα kουτί kαπότες.
Μήπως kι έτσι μας στείλουνε την πόρνη την Ελένη
αλλιώς σε βλέπω μια ζωή με π**τσα kαυλωμένη.
Πρωί π' αρχίζουν να γαμούν τις kότες τα kοkόρια
απ' την Αυλίδα φύγανε σαρανταδυό βαπόρια
Ο ψωλαράς Μενέλαος kι ο Μέγας Αχιλλέας
ο Οδυσσεύς kι ο Πάτροkλος, ο π**στης της παρέας.
Μπροστά στα τείχη στάθηkαν τσαμπουkαλήδες όλοι
kαι μάταια προσπαθούσανε να πάρουνε την πόλη.
Στα γύρω τα περίχωρα μ**νί δεν είχε μείνει
kι όλος ο kόσμος γενιkά μπουρδέλο είχε γίνει.
Κι αγάμητο πετύχανε μ**νί να μην αφήσουν
την πόλη δεν kατάφεραν όμως να την πατήσουν.
Μια μέρα που ο Πάτροkλος έπαιρνε το λουτρό kαι
ο Αχιλλέας μπάνιζε από παράθυρό του,
πανσέληνος του φάνηkε του Πάτροkλου ο k*λος
kαι ευθείς του ανυψώθηkε δύο πιθαμές ο ψώλος.
Μπρος απ' το kάστρο το ψηλό, με τα μεγάλα τείχη
kάθοντ' οι Έλληνες βουβοί kαι βλαστημούν την τύχη.
Ως kι ο πανούργος Οδυσσεύς έχει kι αυτός σαστίσει
kαι τους Θεούς παραkαλά να δώσουν kάποια λύση.

/thread

>> No.12509117

>>12508989
Diomedes anon! I was wondering when (you) were going to appear....

>> No.12509136

Sorry sweetie *claps* I don't read xenophobic *claps again* literature. For your info *crowd starts cheering*

>> No.12509142

>>12505706
tell me pseuds about the seething of achilles

>> No.12509289

>>12505706
Some raging gayreek chimping out because Based Hector slew his gay lover

>> No.12509296

Also, a reminder:
P a r i s
d i d
n o t h i n g
w r o n g

>> No.12509307

>>12509142
>i want that puss!
>no!
> >:(

>> No.12509330

>>12509075
kεk

>> No.12509349

>>12508944
>when agamemnon at last offers to surrender her, untouched, together with an enormous compensation for his insults, achilles tells the envoys that he does not really want the girl - she means nothing to him - and that he despises treasure.
I always saw that as Achilles unwilling to accept the gifts because of the way that Agamemnon embarrased him in front of the entire army and took from him. Also mixed a little with Achilles' pride

>> No.12509432

it was all ego. a pissing contest between menalous and paris, between agememnon and achillis. and that's a nice thing about the book, the characters are thoroughly called out on their egoism and faults, and yet they do it anyway. and isn't that how it is? no matter how much you cry foul on the top, no matter how right you are, they're just gonna do it anyways, their way. There's an insane honesty to the book (as with a lot of greek stuff) that's refreshing.

>> No.12509450

>>12508458
>Explaining Homer (as if he can be explained) through anti-feminism

Jesus Christ, nobody is explaining him through "anti-feminism", which is a modern concept. I swear to God, I'm not even /pol/, but leftists here are so fucking prissy about discussing anything that would trigger an upper middle class white woman, it's unbelievable.

But yes, there is clearly an undercurrent about what modern people would consider "sexism" in Homer and many other Classical writers, and you're delusional if you can't see it (sexism in the ancient world is so ubiquitous, it's absurd that you're quibbling over this). It's only "anti-feminist" (ugh, why these anachronisms?) in the sense that The Book of Genesis is "anti-feminist". It's not a coincidence that Helen and Briseis are the source of all of the conflict of the poem.

>> No.12509476

>>12505706
Female ankles

>> No.12509483

It’s about a lot of things and if you think you know them all you’re wrong.

>> No.12509561

>>12509483
the only people who are wrong about the iliad are the ones who insist it’s obscure

>> No.12509565

>>12505706
Hoes aint loyal
Bros aint loyal either

>> No.12509575
File: 243 KB, 411x394, 1453557924745.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12509575

>>12509075
We have truly surpassed the Ancients

>> No.12509632

ayyo these niggas like lions n shit

>> No.12509663

>>12506997
This. Honor and especially acting against slighted honor is toxic masculinity. Thankfully we've done away with such problematic concepts and the state can take care of these matters for us now. If Menelaus were a real feminist he would have just let Paris fuck her

>> No.12509707

>>12509450
achilles is the source of all the problems
the muse (who is a woman no less) says as much
you don’t need to get so worked up by the way

>> No.12511194

>>12505706
war

>> No.12511202

>>12505706
the ethos of greek life

>> No.12511558

The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.

The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.

Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.

Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.

Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.

Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."

And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.

Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.

A few hundred years later, Socrates would invoke Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”

But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.

>> No.12511583

C A T T L E
A
T
T
L
E

>> No.12511649

Hi lit. Im making a video series about the iliad. What should i put in it?

>> No.12512542

women

>> No.12512596

>>12509296
>Treated hospitably by his host
>Upon leaving, steals treasure and host's wife

>> No.12512615
File: 69 KB, 550x368, observations in nature.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12512615

have any of you lived a life of violence and conflict?have any of you had to fight for whats yours,all the schooling you have received cant teach it,war/conflict is so eye opening apocalyptic that many folks who ''go over the top'' cant deal with the reality of it even though they experienced it first hand.

achilles got his bitch taken away,what do you think this wolf would do if you tried to take its prize?

>> No.12512674

>>12507656
Friendly reminder that archaeological finds link the Sea People to Scandinavians and other Germanic and Celtic groups. They were probably a confederation of many warrior bands. Scandinavians(among other Northern Europeans) would often travel down to the Meds to bring back Bronze, which was considered holy.

>> No.12512712

>>12505706

The truth behind the nature of women as unloyal and whimsical. A gayboy who sulks that his homo lover dies. A bunch of mystical twats with magical influence egging on and influencing the outcomes of each sides warriors.

>> No.12512722

>>12507261
based iliad police, feels good not to be a pseud

>> No.12512737

>People in this thread actually trying to argue that Achillies is supposed to be the villain of the story.
Obviously you didn't understand it. Instead of having studied worthless gender studies you should have studied history and preferably archaeology, that way you would have some semblance of understanding about the society the story is from.

>> No.12512775

>>12507261
You and who's army?

>> No.12512797

>>12512615
even Thoreau when he went and did his simple peaceful thing at walden pond observed nature(the ant iliad scene) and also had a possession stolen from him,ironically a volume of homer

>> No.12512898

>>12505706
Force

>> No.12512912

>>12512737
i study literae humaniores >>12508944

>>12512615
the violence in the iliad is so perfunctory you can skip those passages without offence to homer

>> No.12513036
File: 282 KB, 960x720, elk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12513036

>>12512912
im talking about something more then violence,think of the pressures of conflict weighing on the men,the violence is just base for other things to rest on,

>> No.12513082

Hubris, honour, war, religion.
Those things personified in the historical actors of the Trojan war that took place around 1200BC

>> No.12513200

>>12513036
στάσις

>> No.12513215

>>12513036
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν

>> No.12513610

Chads mogging chads
Dark shade covering soldiers sight
Bronze going through an unfortunate soldiers groin
Achilles wrath and fighting a river
Achilles mogging the previously unmoggable Hector
Gods being cunts