/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12449521]

What flaw do you find in the airtight concept of God in this book that you still aren't converting?

[Anonymous No.12449531]

I can't read Arabi, anon.

[Anonymous No.12449573]

>>12449521
Islam's conception of God leaves no room for free will. I mean, it is up to him to either guide or deceive us, so what even is the point.

But to be honest, its conception of God is more logical and consistent than any other religion.

[Anonymous No.12449587]

Allah's commands are suspiciously in line with Mohammed's (PBUH) carnal desires. Like when He commanded that guy to divorce his wife after Mohammed lusted after her, and then retroactively legalized divorce in that particular instance, which of course, Mohammed was the vessel through which Allah communicated this. It's even more transparently made up than the book of Mormon and that's really saying something

[Anonymous No.12449601]

>>12449521
It made a world of arbitrary law (ie fire burns Because Allah Wills it) without second causes.
The world has second causes.

[Anonymous No.12449605]

>>12449573
Bullcrap. It's logical fallacies over logical fallacies. You simply hate Jesus.

[Anonymous No.12449611]

>>12449521

[Anonymous No.12449617]

>>12449521
Why did Allah lie about the death of Jesus Christ?

[Anonymous No.12449630]

>>12449587
Quran has none of these which OP asked.

[Anonymous No.12449632]

>>12449605
The Trinity is just simply absurd.

[Anonymous No.12449635]

>>12449573
It's more like he will guide if you want to be guided. So yeah free will is perfectly intact.

[Anonymous No.12449710]

>worshipping a moon god
Shiggy

[Anonymous No.12449729]

>>12449521

Shakespeare, Emily Dickinson and Melville are all humans beings and have produced poetry and language that is superior to the Quran. If humans are superior to the divine voice than I guess that voice is not that divine after all.

The same is valid for the Bible. Only the author of Job is as gifted as those I mentioned above.

[Anonymous No.12449730]

>>12449587
>retroactively legalized divorce
This is not what happened. If it did please show me, otherwise stop making things up.

[Anonymous No.12449732]

>>12449632
The Trinity is as elementary as anatomy.
Does your hand have digits?
Does your hand have a wrist?
Does your hand have a palm?
Do all these three together make a hand?
Here, done.

[Anonymous No.12449738]

>>12449729
Can you read Arabic?

[Anonymous No.12449744]

>>12449730
>>12449630
Islam btfo

[Anonymous No.12449745]

>>12449732
The trinity is not in the Bible. If your argument against Islam is the lack of trinity, you should consider that.

[Anonymous No.12449747]

>>12449630
This one is in the Qu'ran.

33:37 –
>And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.

Source: https://quran.com/33/37

[Anonymous No.12449748]

>>12449738

Imagery is more important than sound. Metaphors and similes can be translated without losing their beauty, only sonority suffers with it.

I have read all those authors I named both in English and in a translation, and they were still great in translation.

[Anonymous No.12449749]

>>12449744
Where is the retroactively legalized divorce?

[Anonymous No.12449751]

>>12449521
It's too much of a perversion of the source material (Judaism, Christianity) without staying true to the meaning of those religions.

Whereas Christianity is more of a complement or a "part 2" to Judaism, Islam directly contradicts core tenets of both while making no efforts to reconcile the contradictions, all the while marketing itself as a continuation of Christianity and Judaism.

[Anonymous No.12449758]

Isn’t this the religion only followed by dumb Arabs and Africans? Lmao

[Anonymous No.12449760]

>>12449521
is it true that arabs view the quran to be the pinnacle of arabic prose and poetry? an arabic friend of mine once told me that muslims believe the Quran's prose is a testament of it being God's word

[Anonymous No.12449761]

>>12449751
Read Al-Fatiha

[Anonymous No.12449770]

>>12449521
Misogyny, contradictions, inconsistent narrator

[Anonymous No.12449780]

>>12449732
heresy, trinity has no parts

[Anonymous No.12449781]

>>12449760
Yes. Growing up in an Arabic-speaking country, that's what we were taught. There are tons of courses just analyzing the prose. I don't think we have the mindset to appreciate it now though. Everyone my age agrees that it's nothing special.

[Anonymous No.12449787]

Quran 33:50

>Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives whose bride gift you have paid, and any slaves God has assigned to you through war, and the daughters of your uncles and aunts on your father’s and mother’s sides, who migrated with you. Also any believing woman who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet wishes to wed—this is only for you [Prophet] and not the rest of the believers: We know exactly what We have made obligatory for them concerning their wives and slave-girls—so you should not be blamed: God is most forgiving, most merciful.
Muhammad gets to bang all the slaves and cousins he wants, but no one else can. Good thing God took the time to reveal that to Muhammad.

[Anonymous No.12449801]

>>12449747
Why does the concept of context misses you? Read the context of the Marriage, the lady's husband was coming to Muhammad frequently complaining about how their marriage isn't working out and was already on the verge of a divorce.

[Anonymous No.12449806]

>>12449732
>Do all these three together make a hand?
So are you saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit makes up God? NOPE, the Trinitarian conception makes it clear that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that they are not three gods but one consubstantial entity. The digits, wrists, palms make up my hand, but they are not hands themselves, you brainlet trinigger.

[Anonymous No.12449810]

>>12449780
CCC ON:
The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

Each part of your body is part of your body, "divided" to study anatomy and biology but "entire and whole" in that If you cut your hand off it dies.

[Anonymous No.12449814]

>>12449806
>>I will purpousefully misunderstand the obvious so I can call someone retarded.
Retarded.

[Anonymous No.12449817]

>>12449801
I don't understand what that context matters. The original charge, that the Qur'an includes revelations suited specifically to Muhammad's carnal desires, is correct.

Surah 33 has a lot of verses like that, in fact. Ayah 53:

>O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity.

Source: https://quran.com/33/53

A lot of the Qur'an is dedicated explicitly to exculpating Muhammad himself for what he's done, or providing conveniences and privileges specifically for him.

[Anonymous No.12449825]

>>12449814
He literally said that though.

[Anonymous No.12449826]

>>12449810
>"entire and whole" in that If you cut your hand off it dies.
My hand being me whole and entire literally means the opposite of that.

[Anonymous No.12449828]

>>12449745
I don't give a fuck If It's not in the bible because I'm Catholic and not some retarded biblical literalist.
No my argument against the quran isnt that it has no Trinity It's that God as presented there isn't a logical actor But an arbitrary one. Which We know God isn't Because the universe isn't arbitrary. See >>12449601

[Anonymous No.12449853]

>>12449817
I don't see how that verse relates to your charge. Refer to the OP and stay on topic.

[Anonymous No.12449857]

>>12449853
It relates to it because it is a verse dedicated specifically to giving Muhammad a material convenience.

[Anonymous No.12449873]

>>12449751
Christianity does contradict the Old Testament a fair amount though, it takes some very creative interpretations to explain them. For example, God explicitly says the statutes of the Old Covenant are everlasting (e.g. Exodus 29:9, Leviticus 3:17), then in the New Testament Paul says it they're just for discipline and aren't needed anymore (e.g. Galatians 3:19-20).

[Anonymous No.12449875]

>>12449817
That verse is hilarious. Mad lad got away with it too LMAO. Cant believe how Muslims can look at it and still claim that Quran is the eternal and pure voice of God.

[Anonymous No.12449880]

>>12449828
I don't think that God being arbitrary is the correct understanding of God from the Islamic perspective. I'm thinking about pre-destination.

[Anonymous No.12449889]

>>12449817
>carnal desires
Muhammad became like a ruler of Arabia at a point, yet, except one, all wives of him were either divorcee or widowed.
Someone with carnal desires should exclusively go after young, anew physically developed, untouched, virgin women, isn't it? Just like what any normal person would do with all the power that Muhammad had at that time.

[Anonymous No.12449942]

>>12449744
Based 9 year old Aisha

I've always found the concept of houris funny. Abstain from sex all your life, even do it with your wife with shame, and then party it up in jannah with sexy virgins in an eternal orgy.

[Anonymous No.12449948]

>>12449828
>the universe is logical

The universe is esse

[Anonymous No.12449957]

>>12449948
*ntially random, brainlet

[Anonymous No.12449972]

>>12449942
>even do it with your wife with shame
This is not the Islamic way of sex with the wife.

[Anonymous No.12449980]

>>12449889
Not a Muslim, but that's a fair argument. He did marry many women, but portraying him as a lusty barbarian is classic christian propaganda. Many of them were married to form truces, or to support women who had no one to turn to. Old women, no longer fertile, or attractive I assume. And until he became the prophet, and had to assume all these duties, he had only one wife for many years until she died.

I don't necessarily agree with pretty much anything he says, but I respect the man and the way he created a world power. Don't be biased, he isn't the Antichrist.

[Anonymous No.12449986]

>>12449972
Isn't is sunna not to completely undress your wife and do it in darkness? Oral or anal sex is strictly banned as well.

[Anonymous No.12450028]

>>12449986
Anal and during menses is forbidden. Everything else is ok. I've never heard of turning the lights off being sunna.

[Anonymous No.12450045]

>>12449986
>oral and anal sex is bad
As if that is a bad thing, why would anyone want a prolapsed asshole or have a greater risk of contracting anal diseases?

[Anonymous No.12450061]

>>12449573
I actually think Quran has the strongest case for free will. According to the Quran, Adam was given incredible knowledge by Allah and when he ate the fruit he did it with full knowledge of the consequences. This frames Adam as far more in control than in other interpretation.

[Anonymous No.12450066]

>>12449787
But Muslims can marry their cousins as well as concubines. And Muhammad never married anyone more closely related than his cousin.

[Anonymous No.12450079]

>>12449817
A lot of this is barely anything exemplary. It's basically saying that you shouldn't break into the Prophets house, get too chummy with his wives or marry them.

[Anonymous No.12450389]

>>12450079
The idea that God Himself would have to reveal a verse telling Muhammad's followers not to make small talk with him after a meal, because Muhammad himself was too shy to say this, and was sick of people staying in his house, is a little bizarre. It's especially so if you think the Qur'an exists from eternity, so that the eternal word of God contains a passage about Muhammad being sick of small talk but not wanting to admit it.

[Anonymous No.12450427]

>>12450389
I'm sure I can pull up some nice stuff from the Bible.

We have a thread right now on the time when Noah flashed ham, remember that?

[Anonymous No.12450500]

>>12449521
Because in the Quran Allah says that if He had wanted to make me a muslim He would have and that I should just vie with others in good works and that in the end He will evaluate how I did fairly.

[Anonymous No.12450600]

>>12450389
Maybe because it isn't just applicable to Muhammad and has a universal wisdom to it. People used to go to Muhammad's house and spent hours without leaving. We could take cue from since we all visit other people. Always keeping an eye if we're staying too long to cause the host annoyance.

[Anonymous No.12450741]

>>12450600
we're reaching levels of cope that shouldn't be possible

[Anonymous No.12450760]

>>12450741
Is deriving an allegory of temperance from alcoholism coping when Noah flashed his genitals?

[Anonymous No.12450770]

>>12450500
I mean if you wanted to be a muslim Allah would also will it. But that kind of speech is direct at Muslims who tru to convind people dear to thier heart who are kaffir to convert but fail. I hope I made myself clear English is a second language to me

[Anonymous No.12450810]

>>12450389
It is well known that the Qur’an is not like that which was bestowed upon the previous messangers its like a newer upgraded version. And he was shy whats wrong with that, the man had extraordinary polite manners. They had alot to ask about him being a prophet and all and in his home he prefered to attend to his family and housework they can ask him any other time, keep in mind Muslims pray in a masjid 5 times a day so they would have many opportunities to ask him.

[Anonymous No.12450836]

>>12450810
https://quran.com/2/106

[Anonymous No.12451181]

>>12449573
But one of the recurring themes of the Quran is people willingly rejecting or following God's guidance. that suggests lots of room for free will

[Anonymous No.12451223]

>>12450770
>But that kind of speech is direct at Muslims who tru to convind people dear to their heart who are kaffir to convert but fail.
Regardless of whether it was directed at Muslims the implication of the verse is still that Allah had the power to make all of humanity Muslims but that He chose not too, and while Islam may be the final revelation and the culmination of human religion for whatever reason Allah decided to leave some people practicing their own religion, and that he will judge non-Muslims on the goodness of their works. I'm not trying to say that the verse is saying that there is no reason for people to convert to Islam, but it seems clear to me that it's acknowledging that sometimes people may have valid reasons for continuing in their own religion, and that Allah understands this and will judge them on their merits and sins in life instead of condemning all non-Muslims to hell by default. I actually see this as a good thing and it makes me respect Islam more despite being a non-Muslim myself.

[Anonymous No.12451252]

>>12450741
How's that reaching? It's the same exact scenario

[Anonymous No.12452756]

>>12449748
I don't think so, sonny. You lose a lot of meaning if you're trying to translate poetry, which is almost an impossible feat. Take Rumi as an example. While his poetry is exceptionally good, it still doesn't measure up to the original translations.

Language is riddled with cultural connotations and certain abstract words that may have more of an emotional impact in one language that's nearly impossible to translate. For example, if I were trying to translate the word "hya'" from Arabic to English, I would have to write an essay that still wouldn't come close to the word that's conveyed to the reader in the original language. A vague translation would be "humility" but even that is contrived.

[Anonymous No.12452807]

>>12449828
>I don't give a fuck If It's not in the bible because I'm Catholic
truer words have never been spoken desû

[Anonymous No.12452820]

>>12449521
all the not airtight bits I guess

[Anonymous No.12452824]

>>12449828
>>12449745
It is in the Bible, though. God is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. All of these things are positively affirmed in the text.

Never post about a topic you are so uninformed on again.

[Anonymous No.12452831]

>>12449745
lol I love this one

[Anonymous No.12452855]

>>12449632
>>12449745
>>12452824
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/christian-doctrines/a-formulation-and-defense-of-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity/

[Anonymous No.12452864]

>>12452807
hero

[Anonymous No.12452886]

>>12452807
>>12452864
The fact that he was wrong about both the Bible and his own Church kind of goes to show how much of a little-c catholic he really is.

Let him be.

[Anonymous No.12454094]

>>12449857
Not that anon, but seconded.

Address this please, OP.

[Anonymous No.12454106]

>>12449611
I don't think you understand how percentages work
46% is still the majority if the other 54% are just different groups split in to different percentages

[Anonymous No.12454113]

>>12449605
I actually love Jesus

[Anonymous No.12454123]

>>12450760
Youre missing half of it. Noah got drunk and flashed, correct.

Shem and Japeth walked in with eyes averted to cover noah with blanket; Ham, who was the first to walk in, ran out and told his brothers he saw dads peepee.

Its not about the flashing, its about respect to a parent who also just happened to save you, your wives, and the only (supposed) lifestock in the postflooded world.

[Anonymous No.12454127]

>>12454113
as a friend or you let him use your bum-hole?

[Anonymous No.12454133]

>>12449521
Literally the worst book I've ever read

[Anonymous No.12454152]

>>12452824
The doctrine of the trinity is interpreted from the biblical text. The doctrine itself is not explicitly outlined in the bible. This is off-topic. Nice perro btw too.

[Anonymous No.12454153]

>>12449817
but DId yOU read IT In AraBic???

[Anonymous No.12454177]

>>12454094
This was addressed itt.

[Anonymous No.12454187]

Read the reply chains for posts that you are considering replying to. Nobody wants to have to repeat themselves ad nauseam.

[Anonymous No.12454390]

>>12449521
Islam is a religion of pigs

[Anonymous No.12454400]

>>12454106
>46% is still the majority

[Anonymous No.12454477]

>>12449587
Christ, imagine having to preface, or follow any utterings of the main Islamic figures with swt and pbuh like in some fucking harry potter spellbook guide.

Like, worst bastardisation of the Abrahamic tradition evah. The few chances it had at formalising itself into something respectable went down the drain when the Wahabi-Salafi cunts monopolised it.

[Anonymous No.12454519]

>>12454477
pro-tip:all of them are bastardizations of Zoroastrianism. Before the Persians freed the kikes from Babylon they were just another unremarkable levant-region semite tribe, then after the Persians freed them they adopted all the theological doctrines of the Persians which came to form the basis of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam. Out of all of it's spawn though Islam is the most based and comes the closet to eastern wisdom with schools like Sufism which is lightyears ahead of anything in Christianity and Judaism. The Wahabis have not monopolized it yet, Sufism is unironically more popular and respected at al-Azhar than Wahhabism.

[Anonymous No.12454525]

I'm a gaytheist but if I were religious I would be a muslim. Becuase christianity is beta.

[Anonymous No.12454538]

>>12454106
The word you're looking for is "plurality."

[Anonymous No.12454551]

yikes. what a dreadful fucking religion

[Anonymous No.12454579]

>>12454519
>Sufism is unironically more popular and respected at al-Azhar than Wahhabism
By whom my nig? Your Pakinese-Bengoolian post-mosque book club? You can't be serious. Sunnis have long been monopolised by Wahhabi-Salafis. All the funding that goes into new mosques and Islamic centres comes from them and the barely literate imams presiding over them are parroting that same ideology. Shia tradition is doomed as well because they're forced into a perpetual state of retarded reactionary tactics by the Wahhabis. Sufis are a fringe that's either disregarded as heresy, or downright mocked and oppressed by the ummah at large. Absolutely disgusting tradition with no hope of reformation, or reversing it to the few sophisticated theological threads it had going for itself.

[Anonymous No.12454631]

>>12454123
Fair enough, you can draw quite a lot of meaning from it. But the fact is that the holy bible has a few verses detailing the time Noah was just chilling with his junk out. That's more preposterous than a few verses telling people not to bother Muhammad. That can have a lot of meaning as well.

If you say the Quran is ridiculous, you cannot say that the Bible isn't ridiculous as well, that's the only point I'm making. These people are saying the Quran can't possibly be true because it contains "trivial" stuff like that, but the bible is full of it. It's blatant hypocrisy.

[Anonymous No.12454638]

>>12454477
Imagine referring to Jesus as Jesus Christ. All your criticisms of Islam are very hypocritical, and I'm saying that while not even being a muslim

[Anonymous No.12454641]

>>12454638
Hypocritical why? Now you didn't assume I was Christian there, did you?

[Anonymous No.12454642]

>>12454519
Sufism isn't mainstream though, its mainly an Iranian-subcontinental thing.

Is Qawwali Islamic? Not according to the Quran. Sufis are based and bro-tier, but strictly speaking, they really are heretics. True Islam is wahhabism, which is really unfortunate.

[Anonymous No.12454645]

>>12449521
The book has a lot of punishment of non-believers. A lot of fire and damnation. My friend and I have a game where we drink a finger of whiskey and open the Koran at random to read paragraphs to each other. It appears to be quite a violent book.

[Anonymous No.12454647]

>>12454641
No, I didn't assume that, but you refer to Jesus as "Christ", an honorific title. PBUH is basically a title as well.

[Anonymous No.12454662]

What this thread has taught me is that you have to be a complete moron to be a Moslem.

[Anonymous No.12454670]

>>12454647
Right, but if you pay close attention to the context, I used it as a colloquialism. And while it is a title, there are no rules, or clerics who get autistic about which configuration of Jesus and Christ better conjures the spell of Christianity. Pbuh is a complimentary phrase and it is used both in writing and orally, almost every single time their prophets are uttered. I get your point, but not quite the same.

[Anonymous No.12454694]

>>12454670
Well, all I'm saying is that these religions are more similar than people are willing to admit, and most criticisms of Islam that are being written here apply to Christianity as well. And again, just to show that I'm unbiased, i am not a muslim

[Anonymous No.12454701]

>>12454694
I'd say they're more different than most people nowadays are willing to admit. And you don't have to be muslim to have a pro-islam bias.

[Anonymous No.12454753]

>>12454701
They have their differences, sure, but none of the criticisms here are specific to Islam. Having a pro muslim bias while being a non muslim seems highly illogical and improbable.

[Anonymous No.12454880]

>>12454662
Nowhere near as much as you need to unironicly be a christcuck as an european. At least the arabs whorship another arab, not some fucking hippy kike on a stick.

[Anonymous No.12454884]

>>12454753
There are instances in which political incentives intersect. Minorities (religious ones included) have been treated like pets by various parties in the West (for political capital) and some have engaged in their apologetics for them - either as a contrived tactic, or sincerely, by useful idiots. Also, publicly displaying tolerance towards minority cultures and values, regardless of their content, is rewarded in many circles, so there are incentives for that as well, whether done consciously or not. Not saying you belong to either of these groups, just saying you don't have to be muslim to display a positive bias towards islam.

I won't list all the gripes I have with the contents of their scriptures, but at a general meta-analysis level, Islam differentiates itself by proclaiming that its scripture is not only the 'word' of god, but his direct speech. Couple that with the inseparable feature of their scripture as a prescriptive political document and the character of their main prophet (warlord, or statesman if I am to be charitable) along with the assumption that his example is that of perfection across all time and you get a picture that is uniquely distinct from the other two Abrahamic faiths. Which makes it particularly resistant to both reform and the secularisation of whichever state its adherents reside in. Not even getting into the details.

[Anonymous No.12455025]

>>12449573
Aristotle and Aquinas did it better. Muslims are emotional brainlets.

[Anonymous No.12455068]

>>12454880
kek

[Anonymous No.12455287]

>>12454884
No, I am not a leftist either.

Yes, this type of criticism I agree with, because it is specific to Islam. Earlier I was just calling out illogical criticism

[Anonymous No.12455294]

>>12454127
Why'd you have to make it gay tho

[Anonymous No.12455571]

>>12449521
Theologically, the quran is a joke.

For eg - how does one prove that the entire book isn't comprised of only satanic verses, and thus the entire book ought to be rejected?

[Up No.12455621]

>>12455571
How does one prove that there are satanic verses at all?

[Anonymous No.12455765]

>>12454642
>Sufis are based and bro-tier, but strictly speaking, they really are heretics.
Anyone following the Qur'an and the sunna and the jurisprudence, in that order and keeping within the creed and the law does not deserve to be labelled as a heretic.

>True Islam is wahhabism
Only according to the wahhabis, or whatever they prefer to call themselves today.

This is off-topic, again, so I will leave it at that. Suffice to say that according to the Prophet Muhammad(saas): Muslims greet each other with peace (asalamu alaikum), eat the same meat as each other (halal), and pray (as in the 5 daily prayers, the salaa) the same way.

[Anonymous No.12456235]

>>12455765
what happens if you don't say/write the complete spell?

[Anonymous No.12456328]

>>12454642
>but strictly speaking, they really are heretics.
The 2004 Amman message contained a 3-point document which over 200 major Islamic scholars from 50 counties signed on to, it forbade declaring followers of Tasawwuf as apostates. Salafi Saudi clerics may not consider Sufis to be Muslims but that's not at all the mainstream position in the Islamic world. It's still quite popular in many countries, see pic related from Pew.

[Anonymous No.12456344]

>>12455765
>>12456328

They may be muslims but not as ideal muslims according to the Quran. They use music to connect with god, strictly forbidden in Islam. Other things like that are why they are considered heretics.

[Anonymous No.12456392]

>>12449875
STOP USING THE REDDIT MADLAD MEME YOU POLTARD KEK USING LIBSHIT MEMES DIE REDDITARD DIE

reddit.com/r/madlads

[Anonymous No.12456417]

>>12456344
>They use music to connect with god
Not all Sufis are the dancing Turkish types, there are many different types and sects. There is a long history of ascetic Sufis living in poverty and chastity and shunning merriment and comfort as a way of connecting with God. There are also some types of Sufis who are outwardly indistinguishable from other Muslims because they mostly practice silent dhikr while going about their day without other people knowing.

[Anonymous No.12456474]

>>12456417
Of course. I'm from Pakistan, I know all about it. Naqshbandi, Chishti, mevlanavi, etc. Of course not all are the same, but what Sufis commonly practice is not strictly Islam.

There is a clear idea of a proper Muslim in the Quran and sunnah, and it is very well defined. The closest to that model are the salafists, even ISIS and the like if you account for the verses advocating for spreading the religion.

You would agree that the rashidun caliphs were true muslims. So anything not done by them is wrong, and inherently unislamic. They certainly weren't ascetics, or whirling dervishes. They were warlords, albeit they were genuinely sincere and were not motivated by greediness like terrorists today.

[Anonymous No.12456476]

>>12452855
I am not one of those you were responding to, but I have read this. It is an excellent article. Thank you!

[Anonymous No.12456663]

>>12456474
>You would agree that the rashidun caliphs were true muslims. So anything not done by them is wrong, and inherently unislamic.
That's a pretty far logical leap to say that anything not done by the Rashidun caliphs is unislamic. Saudi Arabia extracts oil and lets people drive around in cars, none of which the caliphs did, is that unislamic? What about western medicine and using computers? Under that standard 99.99% of Salafist imams are unislamic for using modern amenities like phones and flushing toilets. Also in Sufi writings they quote MANY verses from the Quran and Hadith which suggest inwardly focused contemplation and mysticism, it sounds like you've been drinking the Salafist koolaid without much critical thought m8

[Anonymous No.12456674]

>>12456474
>>12456663
Please do not continue this conversation itt. It is off topic and this is not a good medium for this kind of debate. I love you both.

[Anonymous No.12456676]

>>12456663
You know what I mean, I'm talking about bidat, acts that pertain to religion. Anything done by the caliphs which directly pertains to religion. Stuff like driving cars is completely unrelated to practising Islam, you know that. Is music allowed? If not, then the Sufis who use it are not true muslims. Is spreading Islam a sacred duty? Then the muslims who do not do it are not really following Islam.

Anything like driving cars which has no commentary in the Quran and sunnah is up for consideration. In this case it is perfectly allowed, as its just a method of transport. The calips used camels. But did they dance and sing while contemplating god? It's directly mentioned that music is not allowed. Even then, Sufis using it are not really following Islam. You know what I mean.

[Anonymous No.12456755]

>>12456676
Not him but there are two kinds of bidat: that which is not against Islamic principles, and that which is. Bidat basically means innovation, it can be for the good or otherwise.

Committing of sin itself is not enough to claim that the person is outside of Islam. Only if they ascribe partners to Allah, or disbelieve in any of the other 6 articles of faith. Leaving aside whether or not music in itself is a sin, and the matter of spreading Islam, and the last thing is that the term Sufi does not refer and shouldn't refer to a sect or an homologous group because Sufis are not that.

[Anonymous No.12456784]

>>12456755
True, but do you believe using music is bidat e hasanah?

Sufis may be muslims, that depends on your definition of Muslim. My point is that they are not true muslims described by the Quran and sunnah. In some places, the Quran urges meditation and calm, in others it urges you to fight. It is self contradictory and that in itself is imperfection. How can you say then that it is the word of god.

Let me change my stance - salafists aren't true muslims either - there is no such think because the Quran is self contradictory.

[Anonymous No.12456821]

>>12456784
Let's agree then on this: the Prophet Muhammad(saas) is the example of a perfect Muslim.

[Anonymous No.12456863]

>>12456821
I agree. The rashidun caliphs were perfect muslims because they copied his behavior. But that does include spreading Islam by violence, death penalty for apostasy and a whole host of other unpleasant things that progressive muslims are not willing to admit are an integral part of Islam.

[Anonymous No.12456882]

>>12449732
My hand does not have digits...? Are you a survivor?

[Anonymous No.12456886]

>>12449948
>>12449957
>implying it doesn't follow laws
who's the brainlet now?

[Anonymous No.12456898]

>>12456886
What laws dictate the motion of sub atomic particles? Einstein initially rejected quantum mechanics because it is so random, but it's the best model of the universe, brainlet

[Anonymous No.12456905]

>>12456784
>In some places, the Quran urges meditation and calm, in others it urges you to fight. It is self contradictory and that in itself is imperfection
I'm not that guy but this is not necessarily contradictory, it could refer to doing each at the appropriate time and place such as reflecting on God when one is alone but leaping to the defense of one's country or innocent people when they are attacked; not to mention one can do both at the same time, i.e. allowing oneself to enter into a mystical state that helps one to fight with courage and without fear of death. There have been many military Sufi orders throughout history, most of the Ottoman Janissaries were Bektashi, the Senussi fought against the Italians and Ottomans, Sufism was prominent among the Uyghurs who conquered much of central Asia from the Buddhists, the list goes on.

[Anonymous No.12456945]

>>12456663
>>12456676
please do continue this conversation, it is very informative since you are familiar with the religion with an insiders perspective

[Anonymous No.12456959]

>>12456898
>muh subatomic particles
lmao faggot you can't even see that shit with your bare eyes you hypothetical bitch

[Anonymous No.12456990]

>>12456905
But the fact is that muslims are often not defenders, in fact the Quran urges them to be the aggressors. I really do think it is an either or situation, because the spread of Islam is an important goal. Aggressive expansion is not compatible with peaceful contentment, not all the time.

[Anonymous No.12457001]

>>12456959
You are not worth my time. Read a book or two.

[Anonymous No.12457012]

>>12457001
The laws of the universe dictate that when I click post you'll read faggot. Faggot.

[Anonymous No.12457147]

It's hilarious how these autistic bickerings within Islam are basically the same as those in Christianity.

[Anonymous No.12457901]

>>12449521
Promises of carnal pleasure in the afterlife & the overall degenerate eros (Pedophilia, temporary marriage, polygamy), the denial of free will

[Anonymous No.12457918]

>>12449521
Because it's really hard to imagine God wants us to decieve and slaughter non believers.

[Anonymous No.12457973]

>>12449521
The Sunni concept of God is flawed.

They claim the 10 attributes of God are neither identical or different from the essence of God. So it follows that God is one yet multiple at the same time.
They accuse Christians of polytheism for this, always asking how can 1+1+1=3, but at the same time their concept of Allah has the same problems. Instead of a 3 but one God you now have a God which is 10 but 1.

[Anonymous No.12457978]

>>12457973
What are you even talking about.

[Anonymous No.12458004]

>>12457973
Is the Shia concept of God different?

[Anonymous No.12458046]

>>12457978
https://www.madaniyya.com/?The-20-attributes-of-Allah-Sifāt-Allāh

[Anonymous No.12458054]

>>12457978
http://www.livingislam.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=240:20-sifaat-of-allah&catid=72:belief&Itemid=536