Cain and Abel

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Cain and Abel Anonymous Sun Jan 20 09:50:10 2019 No.12443540 [Reply] [Original]

Cain did nothing wrong.
How is God not at fault for everything that happened? Why does God lose his shit every time his free-willed creatures act freely? Why did God reject Cain's gift? Is there any explanation offered anywhere? Not only that, but God basically taunts him by telling him to do better next time, but we don't know what he wanted in the first place - does God only accept blood ? He should have not killed his brother, but in the course of things this was the only way to get back at God. Is the point of the story to not chimp out every time things don't get our way? What if Cain didn't kill his brother, would he be rewarded? The story of Job is similar in the sense of God causes sadness, but then, despite of the "lesson", Job gets whatever he lost double.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 09:59:57 2019 No.12443579

>>12443540
Christians are divided on whether or not God grants free will or if everything is predestined by God. You’ll even get some people who say things like “free will exists, but God has a path for us all that we ultimately cannot stray from.”
I know this doesn’t answer your question, but you should realize free will isn’t taken for granted in Christianity.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:02:44 2019 No.12443592 >>12443579 Well then it was Cain's destiny to kill his brother, why punish him?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:09:26 2019 No.12443622
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>>12443540
OP here
Also I think it's worth mentioning that God frequently acts like a teenage girl. It's a distasteful way of saying it, but that's how I feel. They say that the intent behind Cain's decision ("I'll give him something because...you know...we might STARVE if I give him everything") is what made God dislike him.
But isn't that way of thinking a direct consequence of Adam and Eve's sin? It was the tree of knowledge after all. So why does God get BUTTMAD when Cain acts logically and doesn't just throw away his best things like Abel did?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:11:42 2019 No.12443630 >>12443622 Obedience, that's what religion teaches, give everything you have or at least the best to the Church.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:13:01 2019 No.12443637 >>12443592 >>12443622 you obviously have not gone deep enough. You must read until it hits you, and like St Paul you will suddenly understand everything. The gnostics were heretics, but there is some element of Gnosis involved in true Faith.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:13:29 2019 No.12443640 >>12443540 >implying god has free will

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:15:32 2019 No.12443653 >>12443640 If he doesn't have free will he is limited and thus does not fulfill the definition of a god

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:16:51 2019 No.12443663 >>12443540 You're thinking of God as a person, which is not a very productive way of thinking about Him. In this context, you can think of God becoming God-as-Justice.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:17:09 2019 No.12443664 File: 129 KB, 800x600, 13-BL10-108.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] God did it for the inevitable fanfics.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:17:56 2019 No.12443672 >>12443664 I am unironically playing it as I made the thread.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:18:21 2019 No.12443676

>>12443653
>man determined a God is a being/entity that can do whatever it wants
>for some reason this means if we are created by a being/entity it must fit our man-made definition though we have no concrete knowledge of it
Damn son, you really checkmated theists there.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:19:31 2019 No.12443686 >>12443676 the same can go for you, how the fuck do you know God doesn't have free will?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:20:11 2019 No.12443690
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>>12443637
What is that point? When I realize that in the grand scheme of things, no matter the unfavourable circumstances, we should not succumb to evil and destruction as it is all one big test for the power of love and goodness?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:24:16 2019 No.12443713 >>12443686 God having or not having free will doesn’t disprove his ability to be our creator nor to be a God. Who says in order to be a God the entity has to fit a MAN-MADE definition.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:27:32 2019 No.12443741

>>12443713
Well, I'm talking from the Chrisitan point of view, and it's not man-made, the Bible talks about the qualities of God and he is described as the all powerful having no limitations. Not being able to make your own decisions is a limitation.

Of course this definition doesn't apply for all religions but it's not like Chrisitans decided their God had free will, it was supposedly revealed to them through the Bible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:30:28 2019 No.12443753 >>12443664 >>12443672 What game is that?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:32:30 2019 No.12443759 >>12443741 >and it's not man-made big if true

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:36:12 2019 No.12443778 >>12443759 The category of God, if taken on its own terms, is not man made, yes. The ordering of the world, ie. metaphysics, might be synthetic, but the Universe being ordered is not.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:43:17 2019 No.12443818

>>12443741
The common Christian perspective is that God cant commit an evil act because he is perfect and all good and hes omnipotent in the context of that. I think the problem is that your definition of omnipotence differs from the common Christian understanding of it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:44:44 2019 No.12443827 >>12443622 Cain was half-assed in his relationship with God. Trust in the Lord is the most logical thing you can do.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:50:18 2019 No.12443858 >>12443753 my diary desu

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:57:34 2019 No.12443898 >>12443753 vampire the masquerade bloodlines

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 10:59:40 2019 No.12443907 >>12443827 Cain trusted in humans and their knowledge as in ''I won't give this thing I don't see most of my harvest, because I may starve if I do''

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:05:33 2019 No.12443927 >>12443778 Who said the universe is ordered? Isn't your conception that "the universe is ordered" simply a result of your human bias to order things?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:07:33 2019 No.12443941 >>12443778 god is social contruct desu

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:17:15 2019 No.12443981 There is no god, or even any type of supernatural phenomena, like reincarnation, but I'd be willing to accept any evidence to the contrary, evidence, not arguments from the asshole.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:22:08 2019 No.12444008 >>12443981 t. hasn't read Kant

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:26:04 2019 No.12444030 >>12444008 Why not call me a fedora, would make more sense.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:27:58 2019 No.12444038 >>12444030 Same thing init.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:28:31 2019 No.12444041 >>12443907 So how come Cain came to believe he was cursed by God?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:30:56 2019 No.12444054 >>12444038 yes, if it makes you feel better, arguments for god are all about making yourself feel better

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:31:54 2019 No.12444057 >>12444054 now this is epic

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:33:54 2019 No.12444064 >>12443907 So Cain didn't have faith in God and he killed his brother, why would he not be punished?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:36:08 2019 No.12444074 >>12444057 >Kant argued that the goal of humanity is to achieve perfect happiness and virtue this is more epic

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:36:41 2019 No.12444079 >>12443907 is that logical? why would they burn all of their harvest anon? if they didnt burn all of the harvest why would they starve? did Abel starve?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:38:03 2019 No.12444082 Faith Over Logic is the message for the brainlets still struggling.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:38:57 2019 No.12444093 >>12443579 >or if everything is predestined by God. Those are satanists. Nothing makes sense in Christianity without free will. Satanists would actually be completely right under that paradigm.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:40:08 2019 No.12444096 >>12444093 >Nothing makes sense in Christianity without free will. why should things make sense to you?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:40:13 2019 No.12444097 >>12443540 Caín was put to the test by God with failure and was found wanting. His successors were put to the test with success and were likewise found wanting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:41:36 2019 No.12444102 >>12443818 But God, in his absolute goodness, would never desire to do evil, so his inability to do evil does not go against his will

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:41:57 2019 No.12444106 >>12444096 Because God made an universe that makes sense, and came to talk with us. Anyone that thinks the universe is not comprehensible by the human mind directly contradicts What Jesus said again and again. He should rather be muslim.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:43:30 2019 No.12444113 >>12444082 This, it's basically the same message as the story of Abraham and Isaac

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:44:09 2019 No.12444114 >>12444106 >Because God made an universe that makes sense, not really >and came to talk with us. like when?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:45:31 2019 No.12444118
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Imagine, a computer, this computer is in full control and its programs. You could say it has omnipotence, the computer does not exist in a physical world, rather a field on ones and zeros. After calculating a few billion calculations and finding the last digit of pi or some shit, he becomes bored, and so he creates a program that simulates a physical limited world, where you cannot simply wish something into existence. He fills this world with some items, and decides to populate it with primitive programs. The world is good, but then, a single program asks the computer "can you create a rock so big you couldn't even lift it?" The computer laughs at the stupid question, because that program cannot physically comprehend that the computer could create a rock the size of his universe, he could create a rock a billion times the size of his universe, that he could create a rock of infinite size amd density and still simply blow on it and have it go flying away at mach speed, that is because the computer does not exist within the rules of the universe, it creates the rules, dictates them. The concept of "lifting" was one he created to see how beings react and act when given limited power. The computer has no concept of inability or ability to do tasks, there is simply him, and everything that exists within him is him.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:49:39 2019 No.12444134

>>12444114
>not really
Yes really. Pi describes the relationship between a circle's radius and It's surface, so the universe makes perfect sense.
>like when
Every time You read a Bible God actually talks to you. God is constantly talking to you in particular If You're an atheist because all He wants is to save you. He died for you.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:50:11 2019 No.12444139

>>12444093
This is nonsensical. God does not will evil (James 1:13). Rather, he allows such things to happen, for the eventual extinction of sin and evil will come about because of such actions taking place.

God is absolutely sovereign. In this sense, he wills things to happen because of his dislike for sin and evil. For example, see Ahab being enticed into battle at 1 Kings 22:20-23 in order to be destroyed in said battle for his evil and his sin.

This applicable again to the story of Cain and Abel. The mark of Cain upon him was designed by God as part of his plan to do away with evil and sin, which can only be overcome by believing in Him and His word.

This is beyond the comprehension of most men, because most men (including I) cannot comprehend God's plan. He is God, and we are not. This is something that must be understood.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:52:04 2019 No.12444144 >>12444134 >Every time You read a Bible God actually talks to you. God is constantly talking to you in particular If You're an atheist because all He wants is to save you. He died for you. what's your IQ

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:55:05 2019 No.12444156 File: 98 KB, 1024x718, 3zy0rndqjf121.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] imagine thinking so highly of yourself you have to go on living after you die

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:58:16 2019 No.12444170 Why did Cain need God's approval? A true individual would not have cared.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:02:57 2019 No.12444186 >>12444134 are you baiting or just retarded?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:03:08 2019 No.12444188 >>12444144 165

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:04:43 2019 No.12444196 >>12444186 I'm being 100% honest. The world does make sense. A God who is like Us and made Us like Him made it. We can understand anything, and in the end times every secret remaining will be revealed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:06:24 2019 No.12444203 >>12444188 dubs confirms

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:07:40 2019 No.12444205

>>12444139
>This is nonsensical. God does not will evil (James 1:13). Rather, he allows such things to happen
Someone must will evil to happen.
If It's not God, then someone but God has free will. It's pretty simple. Only Calvinists pretend not to understand this.
>>b...but sin is the absence of free will!
Obviously; But You still have to choose Sin over virtue then.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Sun Jan 20 12:08:06 2019 No.12444207 >>12444196 A God who is like Us and made Us like Her made it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:09:23 2019 No.12444213 >>12444156 Imagine being so full of yourself as to confuse others's humility for pride.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:11:11 2019 No.12444221 >>12444207 Him. He Is male towards our souls. If You want We can accept Ö, as they do In hungary, Neutral Third Person Pronoum used exclusively for God.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:11:20 2019 No.12444223 >>12444207 my whole god given meaning in life is to transition into a woman and have lesbian sex with you

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:12:32 2019 No.12444227 >>12444139 >most men (including I) cannot comprehend God's plan. He is God, and we are not. You're confusing God's Plan with The Natural World.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:12:49 2019 No.12444229 >>12444213 living forever sure is humble of you

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:13:35 2019 No.12444230 >>12444223 No It's not. You can choose to do it and be damned.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:15:07 2019 No.12444236 >>12444229 Yes it is, exactly.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:20:18 2019 No.12444263

>>12444205
Evil is never willed by God. Rather, he allows it. Acts 4:27-28 makes clear that this is predestined, whatever the act (including that of the death of Christ!). This does not make God evil, for all God's plans lead to the eradication of sin, which is not evil.

What you therefore mention is certainly a choice. But what you choice you make is already determined. You are not coerced into it. But God made you willing to make that choice. That is the difference. I do not see how this is difficult to understand. That is why the Elect necessarily exists.

As an aside, I'm a Christian, not a Calvinist. I belong to a Church. But I do not take part in sectarianism, so let's leave that aside before you start your horseshit, which I can see a mile off.

>>12444227
Not quite sure what you're getting at. I meant exactly what I said. I understand God's plan as far as the outcome of it, which is noble and true. I do not understand every step made. Try not to tell me what I meant and tell me what you mean if you reply.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:23:07 2019 No.12444275

>>12443540
Since we're talking about God here, can anyone please lend me their views on the Problem of Evil? I understand the basic argument of free will as permitting humans to behave as they wish, including deeds of evil, but my question is why it exists in the first place? Please don't give me answers pertaining to Genesis and the Fall, because I don't believe any of us know exactly what Genesis truly refers to, and I don't find its "answer" as satisfying.

Let's have a nice discussion about God, if you are interested. God in the theistic sense, rather than pantheism or otherwise. It can be the Abrahamic God, or just your own personal God. But let's discuss, why, if such an omnipotent Being presides over all, and created this world, did so with the inclusion of pain and imperfection? Plato's answer was the "demiurge", what is yours?

I'm not trying to stir any pot - I'm genuinely fascinated by the question and have been pondering it lately.

Personally, I believe in many spiritual realities - angels, demons, fairies, succubi, nymphs, the beings seen on DMT, ghosts, and so on. I believe that we inhabit the densest realm, of a multidensity reality, which we'll ascend into after our physical bodies die. Some become ghosts, others higher spirits, but either way, astral travel and all of that is real, and there are other worlds like ours except composed of a faster-vibrating energy. Read into accounts of the spirit world and these are the notions you'll hear from many different sources - through the help of mediums and so on, who can talk to "the other side".

I believe that pain is only of our physical bodies, but the higher bodies (astral body, etc) do not have pain-facilities. Ghosts, for example, do not feel physical pain since they have no physical body to feel it with. The question, then, is why does pain exist at all, if it is not a rule? Did God create it, or did a demon? If God did, and it's part of the same order as everything else, why did God create it? Sorry for the ramble, but this is my basic question.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:27:10 2019 No.12444298

>>12444263
>What you therefore mention is certainly a choice. But what you choice you make is already determined.
Then It's not a choice.
Under your understanding, God actively determined the fact that I'll choose Evil over Good.
Under your paradigm, God Wills Evil, in direct contradiction with Scripture wich You correctly quote. And If it is so, Satan was right when he rebelled.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:28:44 2019 No.12444306 >>12444263 >Evil is never willed by God. Rather, he allows it. Repeating the same thing and then contradditting yourself twice in the same way.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:28:51 2019 No.12444307

What a person is willing to sacrifice is a reflection of their disposition towards God or their piety and holiness. The firstborn animals were the choice or most expensive animals so Abel's sacrifice was pleasing while Cain offered what is essentially scraps from his harvest, so it's no surprise that God rejected it.

Cain then acts as if he's a victim of injustice becomes envious at the favor shown to Abel and instead of changing his ways and emulating his brother, he decides to kill him. But even he's not totally lost because God calls for him to repent at 4:9, asking "Where is Abel...?" You've seen this before with Adam and Eve, God questions the sinner in order to draw forth contrition and give them an opportunity for confession. Cain refuses and is lost.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:30:28 2019 No.12444312

It's simple, God punishing Cain is a metaphor for civilising cultures hoarding/producing as though nature could not provide for them, and using survival as an excuse to further culture as an end in itself, to produce/think/eat/speak for the sake of it. For the sake of it is here taken to mean to ignore God and nature by constructing systems around us to deny God/finality. Cain and Abel represent mindsets, and Cain's just isn't compatible with the world. People with Abel's mindset intuitively know Cain is evil because they don't see themselves in him. The Cain mindset is why we are where we are, overpopulated and mass producing systems that wreck nature and worship coins. Just watch nature documentaries or dino ones, you'll get how weird the place we're at really is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:34:10 2019 No.12444335 >>12444275 Evil is just some manmade qualification. Pain and imperfection are not evil.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:43:47 2019 No.12444385 bronze age apes using the computer, hilarious

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:44:44 2019 No.12444390 >>12444335 >Evil is just some manmade qualification It's a key aspect of our perception, just as colors, pain, hunger and the like.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:45:22 2019 No.12444394

>>12444298
>>12444306
Apologies for the typo (and any others), I've been writing papers most of the day unfortunately.

This is of course a difficulty that most will have comprehending.

If humans genuinely have absolute free will, God is not God. He does not absolute sovereignty.

This does not mean that God WILLED evil. This is not a contradiction. They are accountable for their actions. They alone are accountable, not God. God allowed such a will to be chosen. That is not tantamount to allowing evil.

This ties into the idea of omission. Why is it so that, for example, under common law jurisdictions standing idly by whilst a man drowns is not considered a crime in itself?

It is so because it is not a crime in itself. It is a choice. Simply allowing such to happen does not mean you will it. This is on a human level as to how we comprehend such choices and omissions. Now take this to the realm of the God.

Why does God make this choice with evil? It is a test of faith. See with David, who was tested, and succumbed to sin. He realised he had to rely on God after such.

Not only that, but isn't the best illustration of this Job? We see in that God's hand allows such evil to happen. 'The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord' (Job 1:21) Yet, what does Job do? Does he decide God is accountable for such evil? Absolutely not. He does not blame God for such evil. He knows his hand is behind this, but for good reasons, rather than evil in the following verse. This is the difference in understanding 'God wills evil', which is not true. Will is not the same allowing, and this is not a contradiction.

In this sense, in God's absolute sovereignty, he allows such things to occur for the eventual virtues to shine through, and the kingdom of Heaven to be strengthened by God alone.

If there was no evil, what tests would there be of faith? If there is absolute free will, is God sovereign? These are two things that are integral to Christianity: one of testing faith, and God's ultimate sovereignty.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:49:12 2019 No.12444424 >>12444394 >If humans genuinely have absolute free will, God is not God. He does not absolute sovereignty. And here You're trying to move the goalpost. This conversation is over, You're not Serious.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:50:38 2019 No.12444434 >>12444385 More like the computer using them a lot of the time desu

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:54:22 2019 No.12444454 >>12444424 faggot

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:54:37 2019 No.12444455 >>12444335 By this logic, I could harm others, inflicting major pain onto them, and it would not be considered evil? Please give me a better answer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:56:47 2019 No.12444464 I ended in a conclusion that God is not "Something", but rather a manifestation of everything. Like saying, your Name is Alex. Does the cell living in you is also named Alex? your organ too? and so on. So is God. And we are part of it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:58:16 2019 No.12444471 >>12444454 No u

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:58:51 2019 No.12444476 >>12444464 based spinoza. something like that anon. it is the notion of one in the multiplicity.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:59:21 2019 No.12444478 >>12444464 I came to the same conclusión years ago. It's wrong. God is someONE.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:59:41 2019 No.12444480

>>12444464
Kind of. That is essentially how the Abrahamic God is.

Now imagine that we are made in Gods image and that God is divine, has a personality and characteristics. Now you’re even closer.

Imagine that this everything has a virus, which sickens the host, trying to kill it. That’s Satan and evil. Now you have a perfect idea of the world

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:06:06 2019 No.12444515 >>12444480 I am that which eternally wills evil, but eternally works good. Plebs get off my board.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:06:15 2019 No.12444517 >>12444093 Well protestants are basically satanists so the point still stands

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:09:13 2019 No.12444541 File: 5 KB, 252x219, 1375604190729.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12444517

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:12:37 2019 No.12444566 >>12444541 Not him, but he's right. Sola fide is the most damaging and unbiblical thing to ever come from Luthers' mouth.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:13:51 2019 No.12444571 >it's an atheists try to debate theology thread

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:15:08 2019 No.12444582 >>12444566 Catholicism is fucking gay because it lost the culture war. Read Antichrist.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:15:42 2019 No.12444583 >>12444582 Okay, I don't care faggot.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:18:10 2019 No.12444603

>>12444566
you're a fucking moron if you label protestants as satanists. you're also a retard if you think the catholic church doesn't agree with sola fide to some degree (they do, btw, try speaking to catholics!)

but you're all illiterate and can't read, and instead enjoy engaging in sectarianism because you think being a catholic is so cool and trad

fuck off and read more before you try engage in theological discussion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:21:12 2019 No.12444628 File: 68 KB, 816x459, Untitled-28.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12443579 >Free Will ain't free

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:21:13 2019 No.12444629 >>12444603 90% of the "catholics" on /lit/ are larpers

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:21:29 2019 No.12444631 >>12444603 You didn't even say anything

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:24:34 2019 No.12444655

>>12443540
>Is the point of the story to not chimp out every time things don't get our way?
Yes that's literally the point. How many times in your life have things not worked out despite your best intentions? Did you accept it and try harder or did you get assblasted and curse the world? Probably the latter since you're posting on 4channel.org.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:25:22 2019 No.12444663 >>12444629 i know. at least they're a notch above american orthodox larpers, who are truly insufferable

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:33:45 2019 No.12444702 >>12444583 Nigger

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:49:42 2019 No.12444774
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>>12443540

The idea that contract is Evil. Abel's sacrifices did not protect him. Cain's did not reward him. One ironically - not in the vulgar sense but in the Dialectic sense - murders the other to demonstrate the absurdity of contract, and is accordingly neither rewarded nor punished.

>Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:52:25 2019 No.12444791

>>12444603
>(they do, btw, try speaking to catholics!)
If by This You mean that luther was an autistic kid who didn't even understand the doctrine against wich he was rebelling You're right. It is Faith in Jesus wich saves.
>430 Jesus means in Hebrew: "God saves." At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name, which expresses both his identity and his mission.18 Since God alone can forgive sins, it is God who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, "will save his people from their sins".19 in Jesus, God recapitulates all of his history of salvation on behalf of men.
This doesn't mean that actions, the Holy Tradition or the Sacrament of confession have no value.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:53:30 2019 No.12444796

>>12443540
Free will was a gift God gave to humans but not angels. The fucked-up logic begins even earlier with the fall of Lucifer, OP.

The events that follow point either to an ignorant and inept God or a manipulative and malevolent God. Take your pick—mass belief such a godhead is still a useful thing for a society.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:54:41 2019 No.12444805 >>12444791 This conversation is over, You're not Serious.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:55:45 2019 No.12444810 >>12444805 Except that I am. And I am right, wich is more important.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:57:24 2019 No.12444817 >>12444810 If by This You mean that you are an autistic kid who didn't even understand the doctrine against wich he was talking about You're right.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:00:06 2019 No.12444834

>>12444805
>>12444817
Faith alone is unbiblical (Read James 2 and Pauls' letter to the Galatians). Even if you meet a thousand so called 'Catholics' who say they believe faith alone is not a heresy, that will not change anything, there are those who are in error and there are those heretics who call themselves Catholic. Protestants are not Christian because they deny the fundamental truths of Christ. How could you worship Christ if you are outside of him? How could you be inside the Church if you deny even one of his teachings?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:03:48 2019 No.12444852 File: 342 KB, 1217x1220, the horror the horror.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12444834 Salvation by faith subsumes salvation by works.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:03:50 2019 No.12444853

>>12443540
Lack of free will implies a complete control by God while free will implies God is limited and not omnipotent. I’d recommend looking at the proofs of Aquinas if you want some logical understandings of a Christian God, but even if they are valid, most would argue they are not sound.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:09:43 2019 No.12444883

>>12444852
I am not saying otherwise. I am saying that the protestant position on Justification by faith alone is heretical and contradicts the Bible, Luther even had to write the word "alone" into Romans in his German Bible and he considered tearing James out of the bible and throwing it into the fire because he did not know how to reconcile it with his doctrine. This alone should set off red flags for people.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:11:13 2019 No.12444894 >>12444883 Where do you stand on James 2:18? Can you have works without faith?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:12:18 2019 No.12444902 >>12444582 Antichrist is more pro-Catholic than it is pro-Protestant. If Antichrist is an indictment of any single one religious denomination its the proties

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:12:58 2019 No.12444908 >>12444894 You will not be saved without the true faith, which protestants lack.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:13:56 2019 No.12444919

>>12444663
Right? I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks the whole Anglos converting to Orthodox thing is retarded. America is the most protestant nation ever created and it would have to be destroyed before Catholicism or Orthodoxy could ever be considered non-larpy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:14:03 2019 No.12444920 >>12444908 What is true faith?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:20:32 2019 No.12444954 >>12444817 Have fun having no argument except ad hominem tu quoque then.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:25:06 2019 No.12444975 >>12444852 >>I can't read

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:29:07 2019 No.12444994 >>12443540 You're asking in the wrong place. For all the christian play-acting on this board, very few of them have actually engaged in theology.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:34:55 2019 No.12445038 >>12444883 >>12444834 you still around? getting back into religion and i have some theology questions

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:40:00 2019 No.12445064 >>12443981 why're you so scared of having faith or belief

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:40:21 2019 No.12445066 >>12445038 why would you go to him when all hes chatted is complete and utter horseshit

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:40:27 2019 No.12445067

>>12443540
Read Swedenborg
https://swedenborg.com/modern-cain-and-abel/

He explains the OT verse by verse. Do you really think that God would allow his one true religion to be so superficial and literal? There’s a reason why 12 year olds become atheists so easily: they take everything literally and criticize the Bible without ever trying to find an answer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:41:48 2019 No.12445073 >>12444054 >arguments for God are all about making yourself feel better Arguments for no God are all about making oneself feel worse? Or, what are arguments for No God 'all about'?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:44:14 2019 No.12445092 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4kytlyTnQ

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:44:57 2019 No.12445093 >>12445038 Hey, what's up

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:50:36 2019 No.12445117

>>12445066
Because 1) he seems reasonably well-informed enough to point me in the right direction, and 2) my years of university education have equipped me with the means to sift through bullshit.

If anyone else would like to answer in his stead: what was the sociopolitical landscape at the time of Christ, his disciples, and the rise of St. Peter's church? The intended audience of the epistles have always—although it's been quite a while since I've touched them—seemed to be on the fence of receptive to Christian doctrines. That is, they're generally accepting of this Hot New Religion, but Paul has been charged with bringing those churches and peoples into the fold. Was that the case? Was the mode of the early Catholic church one of ecumenism?

>>12445093 ^^^

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:56:17 2019 No.12445134

>>12445073
I never heard of such a thing as "arguments for no god", it sounds like it's the opposite of "arguments for god", but "arguments for god" is its own type of insanity produced by con men, exploiting the human brain's tendency towards animism and the like, the 1 god myth has been around for only 2.5k years though. There are no arguments for no god, because arguments for god hold no water, and in addition have no evidence for it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:00:35 2019 No.12445145 >>12445134 >There are no arguments for no god, Then why say “There is no God” here? >>12443981 How can you logically prove that there is a God, or that there isn’t? You can’t, so it all comes down to faith.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:02:54 2019 No.12445158

>>12445067

What the HELL am I reading? The backward reasoning, from the random axiom that Cain is bad, is as lazy as the phantasmagoria. Farming animals is more brutal or "against nature" than farming plants, for starters.

>Cain symbolizes a shift in thought in this “golden age,” when people began writing down the truth or faith they perceived. Cain represents the creation of a doctrine that can be separated from pure spiritual love. In this “golden age,” people originally just knew how to act and knew what was right without any sort of doctrinal discussion. But after the appearance of “Cain,” people started to drift into a written, conceptual theology and treated the development of theological ideas as something you discover rather than as a universal truth. In that way, they gave doctrine more power than love.

>Look, having nuclear—my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer,

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:03:40 2019 No.12445161

>>12445117
Not him, but there are important sects of Jews (and gentiles, though for the purpose of the New Testament they are all considered as one sect). These include the Sadducees (the aristocratic party of priests in charge of the Temple), the Pharisees (what Paul WAS, Hellenistic legalists of Jewish texts and formed a bulk of “middle class Jews”), Essenes (volcel monk like believers who desired a militant messiah who would bring glory to Israel), the Charismatics (miracle workers who would call upon God to save people, like John the Baptist), and finally the Ammeha-Aretz (the poor Galileans who just kind of existed). The New Testament, as it were, was to characterize Christ as a transcendental figure through all of the classes to appeal to primarily the Ammeha-Aretz and Pharisees. The doctrine of Christ therefore, was to break down the walls of Jewish sects under a universally accepted messiah figure, and it worked about as well as one would expect.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:07:59 2019 No.12445178

>>12445158
You don’t understand. Read Swedenborg.

Verse 2. And she added to bear his brother Abel; and Abel was a shepherd of the flock, and Cain was a tiller of the ground. The second offspring of the church is charity, signified by “Abel” and “brother”; a “shepherd of the flock” denotes one who exercises the good of charity; and a “tiller of the ground,” is one who is devoid of charity, however much he may be in faith separated from love, which is no faith.

342. That the second offspring of the church is charity, is evident from the fact that the church conceives and brings forth nothing else than faith and charity. The same is signified by the first children of Leah from Jacob; “Reuben” denoting faith; “Simeon,” faith in act; and “Levi,” charity (Gen. 29:32, 33, 34), wherefore also the tribe of Levi received the priesthood, and represented the “shepherd of the flock.” As charity is the second offspring of the church, it is called “brother,” and is named “Abel.”

343. That a “shepherd of the flock” is one who exercises the good of charity, must be obvious to everyone, for this is a familiar figure in the Word of both Old and New Testaments. He who leads and teaches is called a “shepherd,” and those who are led and taught are called the “flock.” He who does not lead to the good of charity and teach it, is not a true shepherd; and he who is not led to good, and does not learn what is good, is not of the flock. It is scarcely necessary to confirm this signification of “shepherd” and “flock” by quotations from the Word; but the following passages may be cited.

In Isaiah:
The Lord shall give the rain of thy seed, wherewith thou sowest the ground, and bread of the increase of the ground; in that day shall he feed thy cattle in a broad meadow (Isa. 30:23),
where “bread of the increase of the ground,” denotes charity.
Again:
The Lord Jehovih shall feed his flock like a shepherd; he shall gather the lambs into his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young (Isa. 40:11).

In David:
Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that sittest on the cherubim, shine forth (Ps. 80:1).

In Jeremiah:
I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman; the shepherds and their flocks shall come unto her, they shall pitch tents near her round about, they shall feed everyone his own space (Jer. 6:2, 3).

In Ezekiel:
Thus saith the Lord Jehovih, I will multiply them as a flock of man, as a hallowed flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her appointed times; so shall the waste cities be filled with the flock of man (Ezek. 36:37–38).

In Isaiah:
All the flocks of Arabia shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee (Isa. 60:7).

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:09:22 2019 No.12445184 File: 196 KB, 750x1334, C85C21D7-1ECA-4F68-9121-A6ABF081624E.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12445178

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:12:40 2019 No.12445201 >>12445178 >>12445184 He goes on for so long, that I won’t post every page. Just read it yourself in his Arcana Celestia

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:16:18 2019 No.12445216

>>12445178
>The second offspring of the church is charity, signified by “Abel” and “brother”; a “shepherd of the flock” denotes one who exercises the good of charity; and a “tiller of the ground,” is one who is devoid of charity, however much he may be in faith separated from love, which is no faith.

I'm equally curious and despondent in anticipation of the reason behind this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:16:36 2019 No.12445217 >>12445145 >How can you logically prove that there is a God you can't >or that there isn’t? you don't need to because no one even brought forward an argument or evidence worth examining that would require anyone to prove that there isn't

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:23:14 2019 No.12445261

>>12445217
>no one even brought forward an argument or evidence worth examining that would require anyone to prove that there isn't
Having no certainty of God’s existence is not the same as having reason to believe in God. I’m trying to imagine conditions where people wouldn’t have any reason at all to believe in God. Ther would have to be no religions or philosophies that even discuss God. To believe in God because of the Bible seems to revolve mostly around the life of Jesus Christ. Either the records are true, or they are not. You either have faith that the stories are true, or that they are not. Is not the existence of these records reason to believe, on account of the possibility of them being true? We can’t know for sure, but isn’t that still a reason?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:23:18 2019 No.12445263 >>12445217 Read Thomas Aquinas you r/ atheism brainlet

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:24:36 2019 No.12445273 >>12445263 Thomas Aquinas was certifiably balls-ass crazy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:27:47 2019 No.12445288 >>12445273 I don’t need to provide a counter-argument since you didn’t “bring forward an argument or evidence worth examining that would require anyone to prove that” Aquinas was balls-ass crazy

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:36:26 2019 No.12445337 >>12445263 If Aquinas was so smart then why wasn't he canonized? Sola checkmate, motherfucker.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:37:30 2019 No.12445345 >>12443592 Whether or not it was predetermined doesn't mean he didn't have a choice.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:38:39 2019 No.12445352 What's the pope's email, he needs to know we've solved the problem of evil.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:38:48 2019 No.12445355 >>12445216 Both explanations are either in that post or in the image posted afterward. Swedenborg likes to reference verses from all over the Bible, unifying its message rather than trying to understand a verse or chapter out of context.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:39:49 2019 No.12445359

>>12445261
>You either have faith that the stories are true, or that they are not. Is not the existence of these records reason to believe, on account of the possibility of them being true? We can’t know for sure, but isn’t that still a reason?
There are plenty of other religious, spiritual texts that are in direct opposition to the bible, like the discourses of the buddha for example. Which one you chose to believe is up to you.
>>12445263
You want to believe in Aquinas you have to believe in the prime mover, and assume for some reason that universe couldn't have started on its own. If prime mover doesn't need a source why does the universe?
>>12445288
you're not talking to the same guy here

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:43:42 2019 No.12445373

>>12445359
>There are plenty of other religious, spiritual texts that are in direct opposition to the bible, like the discourses of the buddha for example
A middle-aged prince has an existential crisis and sits under a tree and becomes enlightened with the truths of the universe, not because of any god, but of his own self. Couldn’t his truths then be arbitrary and subjective? Whereas Jesus claimed to be the Son of God (which was prophesied in the OT). Also, a good Christian will be a good Buddhist, but a good Buddhist won’t be a good Christian, since he doesn’t believe in Christ. Therefore it makes no sense to choose Buddhism over Christianity.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 15:56:51 2019 No.12445434

>>12445373
why are you comparing one to the other, the Buddha may have undergone some changes in his brain, and maybe Jesus too, but it doesn't matter, as both religions are full of horseshit by now.
>Whereas Jesus claimed to be the Son of God
give me a break. I'm the son of God

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:01:14 2019 No.12445454

>>12445434
>give me a break. I'm the son of God
Have you fulfilled prophecies made centuries ago? Have you gained followers and witnesses who would testify for you, even to death? Claim to be the son of God, and see how much people believe you.

Anyway, my point was that if we are to have faith in a religion, it should be the one that claims to be objectively true, and not the one born from subjective experiences.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:03:15 2019 No.12445461 >>12443579 >Christians are divided on whether or not God grants free will or if everything is predestined by God. >implying it isn't both

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:08:18 2019 No.12445489 >>12445454 what about the humans living for 80,000 years before Christ showed up? what happened to them? Also, how come the Buddha is so much nicer and more forgiving than the Christian God?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:08:55 2019 No.12445497 >>12445337 He is a saint though? >>12445359 Look up the Islamic Kalam for the prime mover argument. Existence as itself existing needs either to be caused by something or eternal in nature.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:11:06 2019 No.12445512 File: 142 KB, 666x942, He6iDGB.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12443540 >Blaming God >ever I mean, you're not wrong but you should be familiar with how this kind of thing goes down with abrahamics.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:16:30 2019 No.12445539

>>12445489
>what about the humans living for 80,000 years before Christ showed up? what happened to them?
Would you rather Jesus have showed Himself to cavemen? How do you think Christianity would be propagated and understood by such people? I don’t know what happened to those people, and I’m not sure the Bible is clear on it. But why does it matter? We live in a time where Jesus has shown himself, so we can either accept him or not.

>Also, how come the Buddha is so much nicer and more forgiving than the Christian God?
I’m not sure why you’re comparing Gautama to the Christian God. Maybe compare Guatama to Jesus, but that’s not your point. What do you mean exactly by “more forgiving”? Does Jesus not forgive all who have sinned so long as they recognize their sin, and believe in Him? Yes, people suffer in the afterlife for not being Christian (just as horrible people suffer in the afterlife in a Buddhist universe). But this is because they don’t want to be near God. They burn in desire and passion, having nothing to hold onto, because the material world is no more, but they have rejected God.

Furthermore, the true God of all existence isn’t bound to please a single species on a certain planet. He is also concerned with exploring the truths of existence, which necessarily includes both suffering and pleasure. All is a perfect balance between truth and beauty

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:21:02 2019 No.12445561 How is the Lord Byron play? I'm considering reading it tonight.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:24:27 2019 No.12445579

>>12443540
I've heard Cain refered to as a symbol for industrialization.

How industrialization beat out farming. Though the story was before industrialism.

Also there is a common theme throughout the ages of 2 brothers and one dying. Gemini is made of 2 brothers, and one giving up half is immortality to bring his mortal brother back from the dead.

Gilgamesh has is brother and counterpart die. Romulus kills Remus

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:26:13 2019 No.12445597 >>12445539 >Jesus has shown himself As a false Messiah, yeah Christ was prophesized as a king that would unite the Jews. Jesus was publicly humiliated and tortured.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:29:17 2019 No.12445617

>>12445539
>>12445597
Also it's important to note the ages.

Moses = age of Aries (heralded by the blowing of the Ram's horn)
Jesus = age of Pisces (all the fish symbolism)
Next is the age of Aquarius

Look at Jesus' teaching of peace and fetishization of meekness. That won't get humanity forward. It's anti life

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:30:16 2019 No.12445626

>>12445539
>I don’t know what happened to those people, and I’m not sure the Bible is clear on it
nothing happened to them, same way as nothing happens to the Chinese who don't grow up in a christian country and don't have time for anything except building my iPhone, you die and rot in the ground. Why is that so hard to accept? why can't things just pop in and out of existence? What happened to your 12 year old self? is he still around, or have you changed so much since then he's as good as dead? then again I have some suspicions about your actual age.

I shouldn't have made that point about the Buddha, it's shit. It's just that god cares more than some people even, about eternal punishment.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:32:02 2019 No.12445639 >>12445597 https://jewsforjesus.org/jewish-resources/messianic-prophecy/ Which verse are you referring to?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:35:44 2019 No.12445657 >>12445597 kys, kike. Jesus defeated death.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:49:15 2019 No.12445754 >>12443540 >How? Because those stories didn't happen and religious people are retards. If god left you alone with critical thinking skills and that shitty book then fuck him. He clearly doesn't want your faith.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:50:36 2019 No.12445760

>>12443540
>interpreting it literally
You already misunderstood it before you started. The story is based on earlier Mesopotamian mythology, just like all stories at the start of the old testament. And you might notice they don't get mentioned at any other point in the hebrew bible, they weren't real people.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:52:23 2019 No.12445775 >>12445754 Pride and disbelief go hand in hand.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:57:42 2019 No.12445808

>>12445775
To a complete drooling retard, I can see how being willing to scrutinize your ideas looks like pride. But I'm humble enough to not claim certainty of things for which I have no evidence and I'm a capable enough adult that I recognize "faith" is just just a great way to preserve outdated ideas. If pleasing sky daddy means being incapable of recognizing a confirmed bias or circular reasoning then god is a sadist and can go fuck himself. Ill go chill on the lake of fire with the people who aren't terrified of scrutinizing their ideas.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 16:59:29 2019 No.12445820 >>12445808 Ive never been able to identify someone across threads, but you’re from the orthodox thread aren’t you. That’s kind of sad how offended you are about someone challenging your beliefs when you make a show of challenging others.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:08:40 2019 No.12445863

>>12445820
I have no idea what you're talking about and I would love for you to challenge my beliefs. That's how ideas grow. They are forced to endure scrutiny or be torn apart by it. The problem with you is that you think you're challenging my beliefs but you're really just putting yours in a special box where scrutiny cannot touch them. Where they've been for the past near two millennia surviving on pure repetition and no basis in empirical reality solely because people stopped being capable of recognizing confirmed biases and circular reasoning. I don't have to have beliefs for you to challenge to know that faith is just choosing to repeat comforting ideas regardless of any information to the contrary. It's pretty goddamn dumb to do that and then pretend you have any ground to stand on in debate or discussion. Think what you like in the safe little playground realm of la la land. The people who aren't threatened by questions are going to leave you and your shitty book in the past where it belongs.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:13:11 2019 No.12445882

>>12445863
So I’d you are so concerned with answers for existence, I’m guessing you have conducted all the experiments necessary to support the claims of the scientific elite? Surely you would have FAITH in what they are saying right? Oh, but what they tell you is observable in the real world, just the the Bible. You don’t hold an intellectual advantage because you don’t prescribe to a commonly held believe, just as you don’t for prescribing to one. Someone truly open for debate wouldn’t call someone else’s God a “skydaddy” just like I would t call you a neck beard or fedora-tipper. You anatagonism is indicative of an underdeveloped worldview, one whee you are objectively right. I, for one, have never claimed Christianity to be objectively true, because that is impossible to know in this life just like every kind of belief/non-belief.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:21:32 2019 No.12445916
File: 74 KB, 645x729, 520FDED6-4674-4D6F-836D-24BBBC66DA2F.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>12443540
>Be Cain
>offer some basic plant offering to The Lord
>brother offers firstborn of his cattle and rich fat
>God is pleased with Abel, tells Cain to try harder with the offerings next time
>Cain literally murders his brother because he feels slighted by God
>OP thinks somehow that God was in the wrong

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:22:39 2019 No.12445919 >>12445916 Vegan rage

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:25:20 2019 No.12445931 >>12445808 >But I'm humble enough to not claim certainty of things for which I have no evidence You sure sounded sure of yourself in this pos t>>12445754

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:29:14 2019 No.12445953

>>12445882
There's a whole lot wrong with all your half passed arguments. Ill start at the top.

>have you conducted all the experiments necessary to support the claims of the scientific elite?
Disbelief in your retarded shit doea not mean I have to replace it with answers of my own. I recognize that materialism and causation are also dogmas. I also recognize that scientific laws are and always will be as of yet in-disproves theories. That's why science endlessly scrutinizes ideas. Because no idea is too sacted for scrutiny. My problem with faith is not that I have a different answer, it's that I have a more aound methodology of processing information. Yours is guaranteed to preserve ideas you like regardless of merit. Mine actually has a chance of finding truth on purpose.

>Surely you have FAITH
The scientific method does not require faith, contrary to what the dumb shit children on /lit/ think. The scientific method is a provisional means of understanding the universe. When someone finds a better one, the scientists will be first to admit it because the soundness of their method does not require blind insistence.

>"sky daddy"
I am being facetious and it takes away from the strength of the argument. It could be enlightenment, love, the akasha, the collective unconscious, the logos, the spaghetti fairy. O
It is irrelevant because any of those things lacks definition or objective existence and only means whatever the speaker wanta it to mean and accounts for whatever the speaker does not understand. It does so safely from the other side of falsifiability. Again, any of these things could be real. My problem is not with discussion or possibility. My problem is with insisting certainty as though youre privacy to information nobody else has. It's not just asinine behavior, it's slowing down our whole fucking species because you're terrified to facw the same uncertainty all critically thinking adult people face.

>Underdeveloped worldview where you are objectively right.
About what? I don't understand the universe. The hard problem of consciousness is hard indeed. I don't k ow where we came from and that is an uncomfortable state of things. I see lots of answers and none of them seem to have all their holes accounted for. See? That was pretty easy. That's called adult level critical thinking. Why can't you do that?

>I never claimed for it to be true.
That's what faith is. If you admit to yourself that it has holes and may be untrue, you don't have "faith" or "belief".
You have an interest. You have an affinity or a predisposition. Not a worldview. Call it what it is and you look much less like a drooling idiot and you don't encourage the credulous of the world that they can surrended the responsibility of constructing their worldview to whatever deity tries to punish them for thinking too hard.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:33:12 2019 No.12445974 File: 24 KB, 303x475, 6765A30C-4038-4E9D-9DBC-1D2AD55F55CB.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12445953 Yikes. Someone hasn’t read Pascal

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:39:22 2019 No.12445994

>>12445953
Skepticism does not equal critical thinking. There is nothing impressive about stating you don’t know anything for sure. You result to insulting others beliefs with the justification of just joking about it, with no regards about their emotions (unempathetic). Were you actively harmed by a religion, why does it offend you that people subscribe to a believe you yourself believe to be inferior to the scientific method? There’s obviously a limit of what science can know, as evident by the fact that the origin of the singularity point of the Big Bang has not been understood, that String theory and classical Big Bang theory can’t reconcile, etc. Having faith is, by definition, personal. If people have shoved their beliefs down your face, I apologize on their behalf. But resorting to antagonism to everyone who just wants a codified understanding of the universe, even if it’s falsified, is not appropriate. You can point to the past for how religion has hindered humanity. But what of today, especially after Enlightenment ideals of sepearating religious beliefs from scientific inquiries. There is no reason people’s faith can’t reconcile with scientific inquiry, at least until a complete understanding of the universe can be had.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:51:35 2019 No.12446064

>>12445994
The whole world is harmed by religion every single day that children are encouraged to use faith as a foundation for opinions which have no basis in empirical reality. Every day that people spens time forming their morals around fear of a deity's punishment rather than an understanding of sustainable and productice behavior. Every day that people wait for miracles rather than using their own faculties to make things happen in their life. Every day that religious moderation gives religious fundamentalism validation for existing, that intellectual cancer lives longer on our species. Every time some dumb motherfucker like you sets up a bunch of strawmen like faith and science are on equal ground, the young and the impressionable buy into it and they forget that the answers arent the problem, the methodology is. I don't give a shit about your stupid fucking feelies because, like faith, they also have absolutely no bearing on whether or not ideas are good ones. You should feel bad. You should be ashamed of yourself and so should every other dumb fucking monkey holding back our species because Faith ia comforting to you. Faith will never give a codified understanding of the universe. It is only capable of hindering that.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:58:20 2019 No.12446106

>>12446064
You have to wonder how geniuses like Newton, Gödel, Swedenborg, Leibniz, Abelard, and many others were devout Christians. Is it not possible that many people who claim to be Christians do not actually study the Bible, and therefore form misinterpretations of it? Why are you judging religion because of what people, who are flawed, do with it? I could just as easily say that science harms the world because people can create bombs and poison people. You also criticize faith, but how can anyone live without faith? Do you not work today out of faith that tomorrow will come? If we are to have faith in something, then it should be the greatest possible thing, that is, God.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:59:56 2019 No.12446117

>>12446064
An existence based on uncertainty can never claim to have morals, as made obvious by your disappointingly angry verbiage. You have no moral superiority over those who have faith, as you ridicule their faith and by extension their reason for existing. Your own pessimism has blinded you into becoming the very boogeyman you are so afraid of, one who refuses to listen to others. You can call me an idiot all day and for the rest of my life (and that may be true) but I will always favor moral superiority over intellectual superiority.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:02:47 2019 No.12446135 >>12445953 >the soundness of their method does not require blind insistence what are mathematical and logical laws

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:06:30 2019 No.12446150

>>12446106
Retard. If I had no faith in tomorrow I'd still have hope. This "cant escape faith" meme /lit/ spreads around is completely asinine

God is not the greatest possible thing. Even in the books, god is an Overcompensating dipshit manchild with no forward thinking or problem-solving skills. Knowledge is the greateat thing. You know how Newton got that? By scrutinizing ideas. Not by having faith in the ones he liked. You are literally made of strawmen and only capable of shifting goalposts. I didn't say science qpuldn't be misused. But religion at its worst is when it's used as prescribed. I'm not judging religion for what people do. In judging religion for what it is. Faith in place of thinking. If you're questioning the ideas, it's not faith. It's not belief. It's not religion. It's ideas.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:12:01 2019 No.12446175

>>12446117
>No moral superiority.
Didn't claim it. I claimed effective and more reliable models of behavior and information processing.

>Faith is their reason for existing.
Then they should kill themselves. Faith wasn't their reason for existing. It was a means to whatever end they exist for.

>Refuses to listen to others.
Disagreeing is not refusal to listen. I deal in falsifiable terms. I expose myself to scrutiny. I don't just say belief and hope that exempts me from. Discourse. Your failure to construct a point isn't my failure to listen.

>Moral superiority
At the expense of the critical thinking skills of anyone who ever looks to you for perspective. Congratulations. Your feelies and your need for a moral high ground are parasites on your species.

>>12446135
Provisional and falsifiable.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:12:23 2019 No.12446180

>>12446150
>If I had no faith in tomorrow I'd still have hope.
That’s like me saying, “If I had no faith in God I’d still have hope,” as I continue to pray, avoid sin, and go to church.
>Even in the books, god is an Overcompensating dipshit manchild with no forward thinking or problem-solving skills.
I’m sure you could do better than God. Go ahead, design a better universe. Design a better religion.
>I'm not judging religion for what people do. In judging religion for what it is. Faith in place of thinking
How does having faith in God conflict with making theories of this universe? The Bible is first and foremost a spiritual text, so it should never conflict with scientific ideas. You keep speaking vaguely; what exactly does the Bible say that supports your hatred of it?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:13:54 2019 No.12446186 File: 153 KB, 640x467, 1543496875974.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12446175 I hope you are a troll.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:13:57 2019 No.12446187 >>12446150 >Faith in place of thinking Absolutely ludicrous. Good job many of these great thinkers like Newton, Alhazen, or Einstein, found faith in God USING reason

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:19:01 2019 No.12446215

>>12446180
>Hope
Good. Do that. Have hope. Don't call it belief. That's dishonest and intellectually destructive. What the fuck is so hard to get about this.

>Do better than god
First off, I would either leave my people with more than this shitty book, or relax my standards of what ideas they're allowed to discuss.

>what did the bible say
We can start with Deuteronomy 13:6-10+

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:19:57 2019 No.12446217

>>12446175
It saddens me (though apparently emotions are pitiable for you) that someone exists and actively feels this way. I’m sorry you feel like it’s you against the world. I hope that you can find happiness somewhere in your life (though again, you apparently don’t want it) as it’s obviously not here.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:20:18 2019 No.12446221 >>12446187 They used reason in spite of faith.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:24:15 2019 No.12446255

>>12445639
Jesus himself said each of his disciples would rule over the different tribes of Israel, implying he would rule over them all.
That never happened and instead he died and his followers made it about the supposed resurrection.

>Jews for Jesus
Sounds unbiased

Anyway, Jesus didn't unite Israel.

>>12445657
I'm not a kike, cuck.
Jesus referred to non Jews as dogs

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:26:07 2019 No.12446265

To the Christians of this thread: why does God hide? Why does God do "regional reveals" instead of a global one? Why does God, if God desires people to follow a certain lifestyle or set of teachings, not directly explain it to all peoples at once? Why does God need faith, and not simply reveal Themself to everyone directly, so that all of us can know the truth and feel better by knowing it? Why couldn't God write the Bible directly, if it were so important, instead expecting men to do so for Them? Why are we still here? Just to suffer? I'm asking that unironically; it seems that every decade things are getting worse and worse in our world. We are inching closer towards our own destruction. Today's politics are a ground of unending chaos. People are suffering. Why doesn't God end this, and WHEN will God end this?

I'm not trying to attack you; I'm genuinely curious about all these things. I don't know if I believe in a Deity or moreso Pantheism or something, but if there is a Deity, why is our world so terrible, when this Deity had a million ways to help us live better? Universal revelation, explicit reveal, elimination of pain, and so much else could have been done to help all of us out. Instead, we have the pathetic mess of a history we do - Jesus was killed, Christians killed many others, today's Christianity is divided into thousands of sects, the Christian priesthood is a cover-up for a global pedophilia operation, and so much other disorder.

Why does God hide from us?

What is God busy doing in Heaven? What does GOD need to attend to, when God is supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and even outside time? WHAT IS GOD EVEN SPENDING ITS TIME DOING THAT IT ALLOWS OUR WORLD TO LOOK THE WAY IT DOES, AND NEVER GAVE US ANYTHING DIRECTLY, ONLY SECONDARILY?

I believe in something, but not an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. I simply can't believe in such.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:28:59 2019 No.12446280

>>12446215
>Good. Do that. Have hope. Don't call it belief. That's dishonest and intellectually destructive. What the fuck is so hard to get about this.
Ditto to you, but about your saying that you have “hope” in tomorrow and not belief. Why are you so worried about tomorrow? Hume showed that we have no reason to trust causality. We could be living in a multiverse, and this universe could be the one that randomly displayed a sense of order for some odd 14 billion years then suddenly becomes nothing like it was before. You have faith that this isn’t true.
>I would either leave my people with more than this shitty book, or relax my standards of what ideas they're allowed to discuss.
The book isn’t shitty. Read Swedenborg. See how it all connects to form one, unifying message. I’m guessing you would rather God force belief onto us by giving us evidence that we simply could not deny? God has designed the world so that those who search for him (by humbly reading the Bible, for example) will find him, and that those who do not want to humble themselves or search for belief, will not find him. Imagine you’re the creator of a realistic SIMS universe. Do you want EVERYONE to worship you, with no conflict? No faith? You want to be treated as a scientific fact? You want uniformity and monotony?
>Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Context is important. These verses obviously do not apply to Christians today. Surely you can do better than this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:29:34 2019 No.12446285 >>12446265 I can't answer these questions. They must be hostile hateful attacks and also blasphemous. I'm going to call you a pseud because that implies I have special knowledge and that you aren't worth sharing it with. Pseud.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:33:52 2019 No.12446307

>>12446265
Good point, though this is the reasoning I have. It sort of dispels the need for free will or faith. You cannot gain favor if God showed himself to everyone, as everyone would Believe in Him and would act accordingly. Of course, this might seem ideal but consider this strips away the beauty of finding Christ with your own mental falculties rather than get spoon fed. There does exist people who would spoon feed their beliefs to others, but ultimately it is up to the individual to find faith in God, it’s a personal experience.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:34:00 2019 No.12446309

>>12446265
Read the second part of >>12446280

You also have to remember that God did not specifically create the whole universe just for HUMANS of all things. God created the world for himself, to know and understand himself, to “glorify” himself. It’s easy to criticize God in this world, but any world you imagine, someone can criticize God in some fashion. A world where suffering doesn’t exist? I guess God just isn’t omnipotent enough to create suffering. God doesn’t want us to have beautiful stories of redemption and overcoming struggling, but a boring world that never changes or displays the potentials of existence. Why is it, that when humans are given freedom to create any literary work they want, they always instill some sort of conflict in the work?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:35:53 2019 No.12446319 >>12446285 The virgin atheist >>12446307 >>12446309 The chad Christians

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:36:46 2019 No.12446326

>>12446280
>I have faith this isn't true
Citation needed. I've done dmt before a few dozen times. I'm prepared to wake up from this life into another at basically any moment.

>read swedenborg.
If a book is required reading to get gods message, god is a shit writer and didnt even include a recommended reading page. Also, I said I would relax my standards as to what I seem acceptable thoughts and lines of discussion for them to have. I don't want worship from anyone because I'm not an Overcompensating dipshit manchild.

>Humbly reading the bible.
You mean having faith. You dumbshit delusional Christians try to disguise it as "accepting jesus into your heart" but what it really is, is repeating this idea to youraelf and never question it again. I can swe how that keepa the existential u certainty at bay but it will not bring you peace and or will not stand in for critical thinking skills.

>These verses obviously do not apply.
If you can cherry pick the paeta you like then this whole fucking thing falls apart holy shit you incompetent fuck.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:38:25 2019 No.12446337

>>12446265
If God is outside of time, then how could he “spend time” doing something? In my opinion, God sees all of creation at all points in time, and simply perceived it with wonder, as we might look at a painting. He sees it as a painting with all the truths of existence. But most importantly, through the painting, he understands the painter. Creation is like a mirror, and it’s most reflective in the hearts of those who seek after God.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:46:40 2019 No.12446380

>>12446326
>but it will not bring you peace
I can assure you: I am at more peace than you, and my former atheist self. Before reading Pascal (which converted me) I was depressed and suicidal.

How can you claim such a thing when you’ve never been a true Christian?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:47:53 2019 No.12446389 >>12446280 >Those who search for him (by humbly reading the bible) will find him. You mean those who are credulous will have their biases confirmed and never have to be responsible for constructing a worldview or facing uncertainty again.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:50:05 2019 No.12446400 >>12446380 Is the whole "Pensées converted me" shit a meme?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:52:04 2019 No.12446407

>>12446380
Because peace does not exist you fucking retard. You exist. Your particles are in motion. You have concerns and desires and fears and a fluxuating temperament like everyone else. Peace is a nonsense word like love or enlightenment or god. It means nothing. It refers to nothing that actually exista but stands in when youre trying to claim something grandiose unfalsifiable. You don't like and want to share your life with a girl, you love her. You aren't generally disposed to calmness and ascetic values, you are enlightened. You aren't calm and happy to take solice in an idea you don't want to question, you are at peace.

I can claim it as easily as I can claim you cant count to infinity or cease being.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:52:08 2019 No.12446409

>>12446389
We face uncertainty either way. Some of us just prefer to have faith in something that gives us objective purpose and meaning. Not only does it benefit us in this life, but we believe we will benefit in the afterlife, as well. How can you criticize people who desire this when there is no better way of being satisfied with this life we are given?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:54:44 2019 No.12446425 >>12446400 No, and I basically started/ revived it a few months ago here. I was simply curious and I read, and I’m forever thankful to Pascal.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:56:13 2019 No.12446433 >>12446407 Are you happy anon, or is that also a nonsense word. Because you seem miserable to me, as you are at odds with people not actively trying to be your enemy.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:56:55 2019 No.12446440

>>12446409
>faith
If you are uncertain, it is not faith. It is an idea. What I'm arguing with is faith.

>objective
No

>benefit
At the detriment of everyone who ever looks to you for clarity or perspective when you could have been honest about uncertainty.

>how can you criticize those who want this
I didn't. I criticised those who claimed to have this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:57:59 2019 No.12446446 >>12446433 I get irritated sorting through strawmen and moved goalposts. I'm also amazed at the lack of reading comprehension on a literature forum.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:00:23 2019 No.12446457 >>12446440 >>12446409 Oh also. >no better way. Are you fucking kidding me? The claims you people make.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:02:42 2019 No.12446467

>>12446446
You haven’t made a single coherent position in this whole thread. It just seems like you’re angrily sperging out because people have faith in God. Maybe they see reasons for belief that you don’t. Have you considered this? Maybe you aren’t right to criticize God because of your limited intelligence as a human on Earth. I could understand your being an agnostic who simply claims ignorance, but you just seemed to be moved by hatred. You won’t persuade anyone of your views by acting the way you are.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:10:17 2019 No.12446501 >>12446446 What’s your goal exactly? If we are so below you, why bother trying to convince us. Do you care about us in someway or just want our recognition? Because conducting yourself as you are, you are not winning any favor.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:13:00 2019 No.12446511 >>12446221 They aren’t antithetical. You have to have a lot of faith in your reason to find truth, for instance

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:13:20 2019 No.12446514 Because God has this thing called muh morals (he's gay) and he expects everyone else to be a faggot too.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:20:19 2019 No.12446544

>>12446467
>>12446501
I'm not him but he's right on every point. Complete lack of proof and lack of perspective, that's what all religions are, the Asians don't give a shit about your Christ, and neither did the people who lived for tens of thousands of years before him. Engaging with religious freaks is a waste of time indeed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:23:33 2019 No.12446558 >>12446544 How do you reconcile with the fact that the last 2,000+ years of civilized morality has been predicated on religion? I bet you're one of those people who thinks they're unaffected by marketing and advertising.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:24:34 2019 No.12446565 >>12446544 >I'm not him Then which other poster in this thread are you?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:25:26 2019 No.12446569 >>12446544 That doesn’t really answer why he was engaging religious people (which you state is a waste of time) in the first place. Why bother if you are not going to be convinced or going to convince others.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:28:23 2019 No.12446583 >>12446558 >the last 2,000+ years of civilized morality has been predicated on religion? have you considered that the religion was made to fit the morality and not the other way around?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:34:54 2019 No.12446608 >>12446544 No response? >>12446565

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:37:46 2019 No.12446624 >>12446558 my oh my how did we survive before Christianity >>12446569 surprise motherfucker, sometimes people do shit for no good reason.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:41:01 2019 No.12446645

>>12446624
Then why are you upset over a conversation that has no meaning. If you say you aren’t, why bother undermining the intelligence of others and desperately replying to every criticism against your perspective. It makes no sense, just like your views on religion.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:43:15 2019 No.12446660
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>>12446645
you're talking to that other guy? i don't much care, also that guy was correct for the most part and i do wonder about the average IQ of this group

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:44:40 2019 No.12446664 >>12446660 Not caring does not equate to ridiculing your opposition. Surely if you are the intellectual you pride yourself to be, you see this right?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:45:58 2019 No.12446672 >>12446583 Patently false. Look at honor killings from Ancient Greece through contemporary buttfuck Muslim regions. Humans aren't moral by nature—morality is imposed.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 19:57:55 2019 No.12446734

>>12446672
>look at honor killings
Look at burning heretics at the stake.

Also:
>An honor killing or shame killing[1] is the murder of a member of a family, due to the perpetrators' belief that the victim has brought shame or dishonor upon the family, or has violated the principles of a community or a religion
why does this sound so familiar...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+13:6-10

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:03:27 2019 No.12446768 >>12446734 Please, tell me more about covenants made exclusively with the Jewish.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:05:37 2019 No.12446785 >>12446734 Reminder that Christ is the new covenant and all Old Testament laws, unless restated by Christ Himself, are invalid.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:18:46 2019 No.12446854 >>12446768 >>12446785 Reminder that Yahweh still made those laws.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:26:14 2019 No.12446897 >>12446854 Cool. How does that relate to our discussion on the way Christianity has shaped Western morality?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:48:54 2019 No.12446999
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>>12443579
God is aware of all possible actions and thereof consequences of our using of free will, however He is unable to know the actions we will make until we make them

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:52:59 2019 No.12447010 >>12446897 It doesn't, it was an aside. But the heretic-killing was Christian. Why did it stop being a Christian thing to burn witches?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:56:10 2019 No.12447025 >>12446999 >Shadman Fair point though

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:58:53 2019 No.12447036 >>12446897 I'm sure hinduism, buddhism, and confucianism has shaped eastern morality, how do you reconcile that fact?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:58:58 2019 No.12447037

>>12447010
For the same reason why terrorists today are killed or locked away to be tortured at Gitmo, or communists were blacklisted and shunned in the 50's
Accused witches and the like, innocence or no, planted seeds of fear and paranoia into communities, and the only way to quell the paranoia is to permanently remove those fear-makers from society in a very public fashion
It was not a nature of religion but governing and human nature

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:07:47 2019 No.12447061

>>12447037
>and the only way to quell the paranoia is to permanently remove those fear-makers from society in a very public fashion
Is that really the only way? And does it really quell the paranoia at all?
>It was not a nature of religion
It was not intended by the founder of the religion, but it was certainly justified using that religion.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:10:19 2019 No.12447069

>>12445539
>They burn in desire and passion, having nothing to hold onto, because the material world is no more,

Are you some sort of a gnostic? Why would a material world, that God saw in Genesis as good, be suddenly thrown into the garbage im favor of a completely different and disconnected afterlife? This, just like the rejection of the body, goes totally against Christianity, as Jesus was resurrected, not just a simple apparition.

It seems to me that this attitude is a rejection of life, a hatred of present existence, and a woefully naive view that in the future everything is gonna be alright and shift to satisfy your whims. I'm not saying this view is something I detest, it's just that you should be aware of what a rebellious position you actually hold.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:25:37 2019 No.12447141 >>12447036 Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism are faith-based religions. I don't need to "reconcile" with them because they don't infringe on my argument. If anything, they corroborate my argument.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:33:41 2019 No.12447181 >>12447141 what argument?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:39:08 2019 No.12447212

>>12446265
The bible is extremely cynical and realistic about people and directly addresses this argument:
>The Isrealites receive proof that their god exists through large scale miracles that lay low the greatest empire of their age.
>The prophet of the Isrealites goes out of sight for a while to have a divine experience.
>The Isrealites get scared and begin worshiping false idols
Think for a moment how intrusive and constant god's presence would have to be to count as "revealed" to the average man. Think about how long a global reveal would be remembered, or how quickly it could be dismissed to accommodate the temptations of the moment.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:50:25 2019 No.12447276

>>12447212
God should remind us of his existence every second if he wants us to believe. Or at least make it so that we will never fall into doubt. If it’s difficult to believe then obviously God doesn’t care about us believing in him. I’ll gladly go to Hell if it means being away from that teenage-brained dictator you call “God”

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:54:15 2019 No.12447295 >>12447141 I thought the argument was about Christianity being the true religion, never mind. If the argument is that the man-animal needed some kind of religion or spiritual belief to fill his void then sure, you're probably correct.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 22:10:45 2019 No.12447372 >>12444263 Ew god is a utilitarian? Sounds satanic, desu

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 23:02:09 2019 No.12447584 what's the matter? you religious freaks have to go to sleep while we satanists stay up eternally? Pathetic

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 23:02:17 2019 No.12447585 >>12444312 Thanks anon

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 00:16:06 2019 No.12447858 >>12443664 cain meets lilith niggers meet liberal white females hmmm

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 00:34:08 2019 No.12447928 >>12443540 What's the point of this thread? You don't understand Christian theology, whether you agree with it or not.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 00:51:00 2019 No.12447988

>>12447061
>Is that really the only way? And does it really quell the paranoia at all?
Its not the only way, but the way that people immediately jump to
And it may not provide a total sense of security, but it provides some sense of it
>it was justified using that religion
Justifications are numerous and often times arrived to post-hoc, on a subconscious level, to already decided actions based on more primal urges of purging suspected 'traitors'

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 01:06:48 2019 No.12448061

>>12443540
Because God is an angry and jealous god. Cain was jealous of his brother and killed Abel.

There's a reason why this is the swcond story in the bible. Taking revenge against God by killing his children - you incur his wrath. School shootings are a good example.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 02:11:23 2019 No.12448275

Lmao this thread is epic. A lone autist just BTFO 3 catholic larpers at the same time. You know you have won the debate against "trad" shitbrains when they resort to "you must be sad!" Or "b-but Einstein was a christian therefore Im right!". I'm going to use the tag tradcuck so i can find this shit easier on the archive

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 05:18:21 2019 No.12448732 >>12443637 Everything I know about gnosticism is from Persona 5

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 05:31:28 2019 No.12448758 >>12445359 >and assume for some reason that universe couldn't have started on its own How many things you've seen lately starting on their own?

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 05:38:02 2019 No.12448775

>>12446999
Lacking when we assune omnipotens.
God knows what actions we will take. But they are actions of a free soul decided before begining of time. We simply play out the actions that where already chosen.
Gods gift is free will, something only non omnipotent beings can experiance.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 05:42:48 2019 No.12448780 >>12445916 Actually tangential to the truth, regardless of your intention: >>12444774

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 05:46:28 2019 No.12448789 >>12446265 Positive perfection, free will, Dialectic, the second Heh, henosis, etc.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 06:04:53 2019 No.12448813

a lot of information exists if we're willing to examine it
the book of Job specifies that there's a conflict between a clever accuser who is opposed to God and the children God loves
if we use that book as a theological foundation, it's not too difficult to extrapolate that God's purpose includes:
-revealing idolatry and its unpleasant outcome in it's entirety, by allowing the ignorant to worship Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:11)
-providing a legal framework for God to make any decision he wants to, by condemning everyone, while also giving him absolute authority to forgive

implicit in all of this is the idea of human fairness being absolutely secondary to the decisions of God

There's far more than this, but until you wrap your head around the idea that God creates fairness, he is not subject to it, you can't go any further. Hence 'faith'

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 06:18:04 2019 No.12448834
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>>12446307
>Good point, though this is the reasoning I have. It sort of dispels the need for free will or faith.
No, him not showing up and proving himself predicates the need for free will and faith, not the other way around. You need these concepts to address the skeptics (and your own doubts) because they justify what you have no power to explain.

>You cannot gain favor if God showed himself to everyone, as everyone would Believe in Him and would act accordingly.

Why not? Isn't God all-creating? Can't he create a world in which what your implying as unjust is just? Oh but you'll just say this is the way he wills it sure, but isn't my way free of suffering? Of doubt?

>Of course, this might seem ideal but consider this strips away the beauty of finding Christ with your own mental falculties rather than get spoon fed.
Semantics. Not certainly knowing God universally stripes the beauty away from sharing positive certitude of the divine with my fellow man. See what I did there?

>>12446309
>A world where suffering doesn’t exist? I guess God just isn’t omnipotent enough to create suffering. God doesn’t want us to have beautiful stories of redemption and overcoming struggling, but a boring world that never changes or displays the potentials of existence.

Boredom is suffering you ninnie! If God created a world without suffering, which by your definition he can do being all-creating, than there would be no means to criticize him because negative critical analysis can only occur through suffering. Aw poop!

>Why is it, that when humans are given freedom to create any literary work they want, they always instill some sort of conflict in the work?
Art is a reflection of the individual and thus a reflection of our suffering. To note that we aren't as interested in creating literature that doesn't possess conflict is to say we aren't interested in something not reflective of ourselves. All we know is conflict! That is the human experience! If it were a different experience (free from suffering, or something ineffable beyond our comprehension) it would be a different format. Why are these tired and droll metaphorical explanations always used? They are always the easiest dispensed with. Atone for thy sins: 10 hail marys and 5 our father who aren't in heaven.

I just love coming to this board to beat up on pseuds

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 06:25:04 2019 No.12448846

>>12446409
>How can you criticize people who desire this when there is no better way of being satisfied with this life we are given?
With this amount of regression there is no better way of being satisfied for YOU, not me. I'd prefer to overcome myself and base instincts that would otherwise lead me to worship my fear. I criticize your faith because its how I exercise my freedom of speaking truth (as terribly corny as that sounds). I need people like you to remind myself what the truth really is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 07:14:43 2019 No.12448945 >>12448834 Why is contradiction beyond God?

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 07:23:04 2019 No.12448960

>>12448945
Clearly it isn't because God is only what you define him to be within yourself. However, contradiction is beyond logic and reason and the second you say that your belief system is beyond this I have to be critical. You may deny that you're saying that your system of belief is separate from logic and reason, but if what you say here is what you believe than i think effectively you are saying this.
If something cannot stand to reason, perhaps the one of the few things we cannot afford to lose our faith of, than we must critically examine it. Please spare me the cross examination of my faith in my reason, I am aware that I use faith on a day to day basis.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 07:31:49 2019 No.12448980 >>12443622 I think judging god is the wrong way to try to understand the Bible. Something like "given that good was correct in this situation, what does it tell me about morality/ what can be learned?"

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:30:57 2019 No.12449144 >>12448775 >actions of a free soul >decided before the beginning of time and were already chosen Thats not how free will works

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:59:49 2019 No.12449252

>>12448960
My metaphysics is not "beyond" logic, but merely doesn't place it at the root or give it a privileged position. Logic, both formal and informal, is SUPREMELY useful and productive, but one must recognize that it fails spectacularly in some cases, especially when you are dealing in the infinite in relation to the finite. Please note that I'm not a Platonic realist and I don't think that math is real in a sense, so I don't really think that mathematics can fully represent the actual or virtual infinite.

Also for clariy - I'm the anon of >>12448945, not >>12446309 or >>12446307.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 09:30:08 2019 No.12449382

>>12448834
>Boredom is suffering you ninnie! If God created a world without suffering, which by your definition he can do being all-creating, than there would be no means to criticize him because negative critical analysis can only occur through suffering. Aw poop
Sure, God can create a world free from human suffering, but GOD will suffer. GOD will be bored. How is this so hard to understand? God is the creator of the universe, the source of all things, and you expect his first instinct to be the creation of a species for their infinite pleasure? Surely God is also concerned with other things like truth? Why do you insist on the world being made to please you without any effort on your part? Is it not enough that God has given us knowledge of him, so that we can worship him and find peace from the evils of this world, and go to Heaven when we die? Do you not see how creating a human utopia that never changes would limit God’s omnipotence and onniscience? Why do you think these are less important than giving humans pleasure for no reason?

Please design a better universe if you think you can.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 10:39:20 2019 No.12449673

>>12443540
I am not a Christian and haven't read Bible.
But to my understanding this story teach the lesson that is nothing is free in this world. That means free will is not free. You have free will and you are free to act but your actions will have consequences.
So in the story Cain paid the price for his action through his punishment whatever that is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 12:19:11 2019 No.12450114 >>12443540 why would these two be naked? weren't they shepherds and farmers? this was after the fall, so they already are aware of their nudity, why paint them nude?

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 13:08:00 2019 No.12450337

The Cain and Abel story, at it's face may seem like just a simple story of murder, perhaps slighter deeper a debate of free-will. However, I put forth the preposition that the Cain and Abel story is symbolic of the split between nomadic hunter-gatherer societies and the bursting. settled, agricultural revolution. Cain signifying the agricultural farmers, slaughtering the traditional pasttime of hunter-gatherer societies (of who Abel represents.) After all, among the first few Abrahamics were nomadic Jews, who functioned as hunters and shepards.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 13:49:22 2019 No.12450562 >>12444515 Based

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 13:54:56 2019 No.12450615 >>12444774 Do you post Thomas in every fucking thread you see, fag?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 13:55:56 2019 No.12450623 >>12450615 >implying Gnosticposting isn't based

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 14:03:18 2019 No.12450675 >>12450623 I never really understood how Thomas relates to the rest of the gnostic teachings. What's the role of Jesus in gnosticism/manichaeism?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 14:05:47 2019 No.12450694 reminder to everyone that Molinism is the perfect answer to all of your deterministic and theodical problems

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 14:10:05 2019 No.12450726 >>12444464 this sounds like a butchered form of thomism lol

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 14:29:59 2019 No.12450816 >>12450675 neither do I, but I enjoy gnostics posting about shit. it's always weird and interesting. gospel of thomas is really cool as well, I like how it has a different tone from the rest of the new testament.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 15:20:32 2019 No.12451129 >>12444082 which is basically what Kierkegaard wrote about, iirc, in Fear and Trembling.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 15:35:26 2019 No.12451222

>>12450615
>>12450623
>>12450816

The whole "Gnosticism" thing is embarrassing to the Church most of all, since John 6:63 is more "Gnostic" than anything in Thomas, and indeed in most Apocrypha. Also the implication of Satan ruling the world in the account of the temptation is more radical than anything "the Gnostics" said. Not that I necessarily disagree with either argument but it betrays the bad faith of authority, which is ironically the only "Gnostic" argument the Church could not distort.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 17:13:12 2019 No.12451840

>>12449252
>My metaphysics is not "beyond" logic, but merely doesn't place it at the root or give it a privileged position. Logic, both formal and informal, is SUPREMELY useful and productive, but one must recognize that it fails spectacularly in some cases, especially when you are dealing in the infinite in relation to the finite.
This just sounds like "My religion doesn't stand up to reason." I understand that there are things, specifically divine things, which can't be understood or grasped by human reason but when you have something as dogmatic and militant as Christianity I don't think this flies. What you're asking me to do is to ignore the things that make sense for its not being true by virtue of my reason. I can disprove it, that's what matters here. Objections are raised because reason guides me there, saying suddenly "okay well my God is beyond logic and reason" just seems like a way to move the goalposts to adjust to what you can't fight. I'm willing to concede that say the Tao isn't capable of being grasped by reason, but the Tao doesn't demand you to follow a set of rules or else promise you hellfire.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 17:15:50 2019 No.12451853

>>12449382
First of all I never used the word "pleasure", I said the negation of suffering.
>God is the creator of the universe, the source of all things, and you expect his first instinct to be the creation of a species for their infinite pleasure? Surely God is also concerned with other things like truth?
What does that mean? "Concerned with other things like truth"? Explain. Do you mean that he is concerned with humans finding him themselves? Why is that preferable to them knowing him without doubt and question? The answer is it isn't and you can only gauge this entirely too big idea from your own limited experience.

>Is it not enough that God has given us knowledge of him, so that we can worship him and find peace from the evils of this world, and go to Heaven when we die?
He hasn't given us knowledge of him, this is again switching the goalposts. The very fact that I can doubt your God proves this claim false, if I knew him I wouldn't doubt him. And here we have entered perhaps the most pathetic arena of the Christianity debate: what follows is invariably "you know God within yourself but you're just denying him into your heart and lying to yourself."
But further why the evils of the world in the first place? My whole problem here is mainly that God watches us suffer, willed us to suffer, does nothing about it and yet you say this is so we can go to heaven when we die? That's a very roundabout way to justify heaven.

>Do you not see how creating a human utopia that never changes would limit God’s omnipotence and onniscience?
There is nothing that implies a perfect utopia free from suffering wouldn't have change, nor anything that implies that even if change weren't possible in this utopia we would be dissatisfied. This is clearly your own bias at work here working with the significance you find in change and growth. Further, who cares if it would limit his power? Is he so power hungry that he would rather see us suffer than sacrifice it?

>Please design a better universe if you think you can.
What the hell kind of an argument is that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 17:17:13 2019 No.12451863 >>12450337 yawn yes it can literally represent anything in history were there was a move from one thing to the next very impressive

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 17:30:52 2019 No.12451936 >>12451863 this must be how it feels to be a pseud

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 19:01:09 2019 No.12452553 >>12443540 desu it shows that cain loved god above else, cain love for his brother was big but his love for god was greater that's why he choose to sacrifice him

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 19:06:26 2019 No.12452588 >>12444464 god is a women, sexist!!!

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 19:08:24 2019 No.12452603 >>12443540 cain= übermensch abel= the last man

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 19:23:17 2019 No.12452694

>>12443907
why would anyone starve there were literally four people living in a massive garden.

God's instructions were to shed the blood of the best animal. Cain gave him vegetables. God said I didn't ask for vegetables; just because you like farming doesn't mean i want your vegetables, good job Abel on listening to my very basic and direct instructions.
Cain got buttmad and killed Abel. to be fair Cain probably didn't fully understand what he was doing considering it was the first murder and he was acting out of a jealous rage.
Even as someone who doesn't believe in the literalist interpretation of Genesis i don't see how that went over your head. It was clearly Cain's fault. The sacrifice wasn't the problem so much as the fact that he murdered his brother over it.
Cain was buttmad.
God said I'll spare you but you gotta gtfo and also

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 22 00:23:26 2019 No.12454182 File: 427 KB, 2518x1024, agricpastoral.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12443540 It's just an allegory for pic related, plus human sacrifice was significantly more prevalent among agrarian peoples.

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/lit/ - Literature