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/lit/ - Literature

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1244019 No.1244019 [Reply] [Original]

"Magic Realism" lol, give me a fucking break; it's such a contradictio in adjecto.

It's kind of like saying 'religious science', 'artificial naturalism'

pic related, this idiotic, pseudo-intellectual spic charlatan who appropriates stale thought experiments and retarded nonsense that hasn't been pondered-on since the scholastics for his stories is the kind of writer attributed to this "movement". Need I say more.

>> No.1244021

0/10

fucking tripfags...

>> No.1244023
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1244023

And, for the record, I don't think it's a coincidence that this degenerate "mode" is populated by inferior writers from butthurt postcolonial backwater states

>> No.1244036
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1244036

>>1244023

Jelly Englishman

>> No.1244048

>>1244036
Don't be silly bro Australia doesn't count

I do admit that was a decent film though

>> No.1244051

>>1244019
Please elaborate...

>> No.1244056

>>1244051
there's a reason for the full stop instead of a question mark at the end of that "need I say more"

>> No.1244062

>Terry Pratchett said magic realism "is like a polite way of saying you write fantasy"

>> No.1244065

>>1244019

i'm thinkin' 'bout this. magic realism is just less gay fantasy with literary themes.

>> No.1244066

>>1244023

what's the connection?

>> No.1244068

I thought it was Magical Realism. Also, who cares.

>> No.1244069

>>1244065
So fantasy doesn't have 'literary themes'? Which themes are these, specifically?

>> No.1244072

>>1244068
>Also, who cares.
I don't know bro, I think it may be of concern to free thinking people to know that there is an academic conspiracy to keep in motion a literary movement founded on bare-ass-naked contradiction. I know I would hate to study something that does not exist for like a semester.

>> No.1244073

>>1244065
>literary themes
LOLLLLL

>> No.1244074

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CHURCH FUNDING SCIENCE IN ITS' NAME?

I SEE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS.

>> No.1244076

>>1244074
If science is Christian, why are there no lasers in the Bible?

>> No.1244077

>>1244076
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I JUST SAID.

>> No.1244078

>>1244074

careful capsguy you're skirting dangerously close to uncharacteristic controversy i think you may be in over your head on this one

>> No.1244079

>>1244019

Of all your posts, this is the worst one D&E. I truly believe you have surpassed both Stagolee and Mogwai now. Congratulations.

>> No.1244082

>>1244079
>mogwai
The guy toddles in from /mu/ to post lyrics threads and al greene occasionally, that is hardly an achievement

>> No.1244084

>>1244078
ONLY RESPONDING TO THE TOPIC ON-HAND.

>> No.1244085

Well, Borges didn't believe in realism as a literary genre, much less in "magic realism".

He grew up reading fantastic tales by every classical author you can think of. That's where his inspiration comes from.

Why, you have "magical realism" in plenty of authors your probably like too.

>> No.1244086

>>1244082

You can't deny that he was extremely obnoxious. Why are you saging your own thread btw? Let's keep it on the first page, because some people still labour under the illusion that you're not mentally disabled.

>> No.1244087
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1244087

what's wrong with contradictions? Other 'religions' are founded on them. namely, zen buddhism.

>> No.1244088

>>1244085
>Why, you have "magical realism" in plenty of authors your probably like too.
Um I don't think Wittgenstein, Quine, Ayer, Adorno, Marcuse, Barthes, Frye, Fish and so on were really into that sort of thing

>>1244087
They don't square well with my either/or western viewpoint. Stupid, stupid Asians and their lazy philosophizing.

>>1244086
>Why are you saging your own thread btw?
It's a slow board, it'll stay on the front page for a while and I don't see the point in snapping it back up to the top every minute

>> No.1244093
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1244093

>>1244023

>And, for the record, I don't think it's a coincidence that this degenerate "mode" is populated by inferior writers from butthurt postcolonial backwater states

don't forget former nazis

5/10

>> No.1244099

>>1244086
>You can't deny that he was extremely obnoxious.
I don't know, maybe if you hate flippant posting and music or something.

>> No.1244100

>>1244088
I was referring to authors of fiction, not fucking philosophers.

Why can't we get rid of this stupid troll?

>> No.1244106
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1244106

>>1244100
Dude can u tell me what is an author?

>> No.1244113

>>1244100
Also, Barthes, Frye, Fish and to a lesser extent Adorno and Marcuse are good theorists by all means but they're no philosophers, no siree

>> No.1244120

and I thought deep & edgy was a decent tripfag

turns out he's a dumbass and annoying

>> No.1244123

hey guise it's me deep & edgy!

i'm really just stagolee except that I've taken a couple undergraduate courses in literature and philosophy. watch me troll the fuck out of this board, wow i'm such a big shot, people look up to me and they recognize the authority and legitimacy of my knowledge because i post with a secure tripfag

i am a giant tool!

hey guise! hey! hey! lookee here!

>> No.1244134

Why is /lit/ so preoccupied with stagolee anyway?

>> No.1244136

>>1244073

"the circular ruins" for example is about the process of influence and creation. what's lol about that?

>> No.1244137

>>1244123
>except that I've taken a couple undergraduate courses in literature and philosophy

At best he's read a couple of wikipedia pages.

>> No.1244139

>>1244136
The lol is quibbling and concerned with something more trivial. "literary themes", as opposed to what, non-literary themes. Themes are literary etc.

>> No.1244142

>>1244139

themes that aren't just "will he save the princess" themes concerning language and creation and society and culture and i don't even know.

just not gay fantasy shit.

>> No.1244146

>>1244142
Okay dude, you don't understand what I am talking about but that is alright, you can keep talking about and implying some sort of illusory divider of "high" and "low" themes(I assume this is what you are babbling on about) or that such a classification is even possible beyond superficial labelling whatever that's cool

>> No.1244148

EVERBODY VENERATE MY OPINIONS BECAUSE I POST WITH A SECURE TRIPCODE

>> No.1244150

>>1244148
> secure tripcode
> !pSkjEcB9sQ

Secure trips have two exclamation points. !! not !

>> No.1244151

GUISE, EVERBODY! COME QUICK!

I JUST READ THREE PAGES FOUCAULT, WATCH ME BE FLIPPANT AND ATTENTION-SEEKING

>> No.1244156

>> Doesn't understand Borges
>> resentful and jelly of his knowledge
>> bitches about it on the internet

COOL!

>> No.1244157 [DELETED] 

Im glad no-one disagrees with me about Borges anyway that's reassuring

>> No.1244163

>>1244156
This thread isn't about Borges. It's about magic realism.

>> No.1244165

0/10

>> No.1244171

0/10

troll harder dipshit

>> No.1244173

but srsly guys what was the deal with stagolee was he just an asshole or what?

>> No.1244185

>>1244173
>> implying you're any different from stagolee
>> trying to change the subject away from you being an ass

>> No.1244188

>>1244173
why do you want everyone not to like you D&E? I don't get it. Also, I love Magical Realism. If you don't like it, or don't agree with it, don't read it. How hard is that? You're complaining about taking a whole semesters worth, why did you even take the class? Magical Realism isn't realism, but it isn't magical either, it's both, which is why there is an inherent contradiction in its name. It's not all wizards and warlocks, but it's not normal everyday life. It's authors trying to find the elements of the fantastical in the "Real" world. What's bad about that?

>> No.1244195

did you do badly in your 100 level course on magical realism and now you're taking it out on the board?

fuck off

>> No.1244211

>>1244185
I'm pretty sure I'm better than him (well really this goes without saying considering it's me and all) because as far as I remember when I came over here he was still around and I think I wasn't too impressed,. I might be mixing him up for ruby vajeen or something though. I think he was the shitflinging type of tripfag.

>trying to change the subject away from you being an ass
It's a pretty narrow subject bro, not a lot to talk about

>>1244188
>If you don't like it, or don't agree with it, don't read it. How hard is that?
Not hard at all considering there should be no such thing as "magic" realism.

>Magical Realism isn't realism, but it isn't magical either, it's both, which is why there is an inherent contradiction in its name
Very bad, I'm afraid, ¬A v ¬B -> A & B
I'm already seeing problems with this. The whole thing is a contradiction. They have built up this study, this practice, out of a Thing That Should Not Be, and all this amounts to is shitting up the subject for all of us.

>It's authors trying to find the elements of the fantastical in the "Real" world. What's bad about that?
It's bad because it's misleading, founded in a bunch of mistruths, and could be achieved in a much more coherent and consistent manner.

>>1244195
haha this guy, I remember the time when this guy had the audacity to point out to me of all people that there were problems determining or locking down what Kafka's intention in the The Trial was, or how it should be interpreted. This guy!

>> No.1244218
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1244218

Either stop feeding this moron by completely ignoring him or just swear at him violently whenever you see him post until he goes away (it worked with mogwai and tybrax...)

Don't fucking feed him by trying to argue with him.

>> No.1244220 [DELETED] 
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1244220

>Very bad, I'm afraid, ¬A v ¬B -> A & B
I'm already seeing problems with this. The whole thing is a contradiction. They have built up this study, this practice, out of a Thing That Should Not Be, and all this amounts to is shitting up the subject for all of us.

If we used that argument when judging books, then we should stick to reading printer manuals

>> No.1244223

>>1244211
YOU ARE BETTER THAN ANOTHER TRIPFAG ON 4CHAN.

CONGRATULATIONS DEEP&EDGY

I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT! UTILISING EVERYTHING YOU'VE LEARNED WITH THAT PROBABLE USELESS DEGREE OF YOURS HERE ON 4CHAN.

I AM HONOURED.

>> No.1244224

>>1244211
But magical realism is not presenting itself as fact, it's presenting itself as fiction, and art, it doesn't have to be perfectly coherent, or logical, it exists for the sake of exciting emotion, to look at the world in a different way. Stop looking at it as if it is a puzzle or argument to be solved and refuted. That's not the point.

>> No.1244226

>>1244220
>If we used that argument when judging books, then we should stick to reading printer manuals
Well of course, but I'm not applying it to books, I'm applying it to critical practices

>> No.1244231
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1244231

>>1244211

>Very bad, I'm afraid, ¬A v ¬B -> A & B I'm already seeing problems with this. The whole thing is a contradiction. They have built up this study, this practice, out of a Thing That Should Not Be, and all this amounts to is shitting up the subject for all of us.

>contradictions
>thing that should not be

so what kind of books to you like read? manuals and guides?

>> No.1244233

>>1244231
I'LL GLADLY DONATE HIM SOME OF MY ACCOUNTING TEXTS TO HELP HIM ON HIS WAY

>> No.1244236

>>1244224
>But magical realism is not presenting itself as fact, it's presenting itself as fiction, and art, it doesn't have to be perfectly coherent, or logical, it exists for the sake of exciting emotion, to look at the world in a different way. Stop looking at it as if it is a puzzle or argument to be solved and refuted. That's not the point.

You're talking about the thing like it's some goddamn space anomalie from another world. It's not, it's a set of principles, practices, formalistic techniques and so on. I don't take issue with the concerns that lie at the heart of the movement (well actually I do but that's not what I'm discussing here), I take issue with the foundations and operations in place and carried out within the movement. I would contend these are faulty and based on contradictions.

>> No.1244240

>>1244233
>ACCOUNTING TEXTS
sweet jesus capsguy could you get any more bland

>> No.1244247

Kafka is infinitely interpretable, which can also make him uninterpretable.

I'm not gonna bother arguing with you. Posting in this thread once was bad enough.

>> No.1244248

>>1244240
>>IMPLYING THAT A DEGREE IN ACCOUNTANCY DOESN'T LEAVE THE GRADUATE WITH AN ABUNDANCE OF JOB OPPORTUNITIES OUTSIDE OF THE FIELD OF ACCOUNTING

OH YOU, SO NAIVE.

>> No.1244254

>>1244236
alright so I can better understand you...

>I take issue with the foundations and operations in place and carried out within the movement. I would contend these are faulty and based on contradictions.

what foundations and operations are you talking about? Can you give me specifics? Also, just so we're clear, I don't feel this way about just magical realism, but about everything in literature pretty much, I'm not talking about it as if it's a space anomaly or whatever, that is how I talk about fiction in general.

>> No.1244258

>>1244247
>Kafka is infinitely interpretable, which can also make him uninterpretable.
I get what you are saying capsguy but you're saying wrong. To be a subject is to interpret, nothing is uninterpretable. Sorry all you ding an sichs out there.

>>1244248
>opportunities
That is a lovely way of saying 'condemnations' capsguy you truly have a way with language. Employment is an "opportunity", lol. Capsguy you are so alienated.

>> No.1244262

>>1244062

This. It's pseudointellectual fags who mock fantasy, but then want to enjoy it.

>> No.1244273

>>1244258
I TAKE JOY IN THE WORK I DO. AN OPPORTUNITY TO PROPERLY UTILISE MY GAINED SKILLS IN THE FIELD FOR PAYMENT BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE SALARY IS A GREAT THING FOR ME. USE SAVINGS TO PURCHASE INVESTMENT HOUSING, PLUS MANAGING MY PARENTS' INVESTMENTS, AND RETIRE NICE AND EARLY IF I WISH TO.

I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THAT.

>> No.1244276

Uh, I take it you've never read Franz Kafka...

>> No.1244279

Magical realism is just fantasy with purported vague differences in the "intent" of the fantastical elements. I find that to be a line drawn in water, and that vagueness is another reason why magical realism as a supposed genre is so easily located to a geographical area rather than being a "universal" genre. I do grant it is a style, but that doesn't make it not fantasy, because then it would imply fantasy has only one style.

I'm honestly not trolling; this is my opinion. I just haven't posted it earlier because proponents of magical realism have been fierce in their defense and likely would see it as trolling, but it's not like it matters in this thread.

>> No.1244283

I looooove the e/lit/ists here who seem to think it's some kind of game to post pictures of people without telling us who they are

>> No.1244285

D&E, you've yet to actually provide any satisfactory expansion on your opinions - you have not named the 'contradictions' you say magic realism is founded on nor provided us with anything to argue with.

If 'magic realism' is itself supposed to be the big contradiction, get fucking real. You KNOW realism isn't 'realistic' and that the word simply designates a set of formal procedures that attempt a kind of aesthetic (but no less political) 'realisticity'. 'Magic realism' is with this in mind no contradiction whatever. Hell, as a name, it makes perfect sense when authors attempt (rather than to be realistic) to depict some kind of 'truth' about life; in such cases they have simply decided that 'true' realism is better served by whacking great incongruous defamiliarising metaphors rolling through the walls of characters' houses, rather than tired, opaque, and deceptive mundane realism.

>> No.1244287

>>1244279
Alright, so magical realism is just a subset of fantasy. Now what? What does it matter?

>> No.1244289

>>1244258
>I get what you are saying capsguy
oh wow, mistaking someone making a concrete, substantial statement for capgsuy what the hell is happening to me?

>>1244254
It's trying to glue together two foundational perspectives about the world (one which tries to represent it, one that completely eschews it), realism and fantasy, which are at odds with each other. It's not fucking realism if it's got fantasy elements in it. And let's not get into the fact that all this has been done before in Romanticism, albeit with the proviso that Romanticism had a different though equally misguided manifesto

>>1244273
>I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THAT.
The same could be said for most sheeple living in capitalist society.

>> No.1244294

>>1244287
Wait, why am I targeted for this question when I merely replied to the people who stringently deny it being fantasy?

Huh, well, I guess it's still valid. Hmmm. I honestly don't know for sure. Perhaps it's my wish to defend fantasy when it is so often maligned. Sometimes in the board's history in the same message where magical realism is differentiated from fantasy too, so it is in a way a respond to those kinds of messages also.

>> No.1244297

>>1244285
>You KNOW realism isn't 'realistic' and that the word simply designates a set of formal procedures that attempt a kind of aesthetic (but no less political) 'realisticity'. 'Magic realism' is with this in mind no contradiction whatever.
I've never said that the problem was that neither reflected the world adequately, I meanm come on. But within their structures, within the system or language-game of literature (we can be more specific here of course)I would argue there are contradictions to do with the formal practices of the genre. But yeah, you're right.

>> No.1244299

>>1244289
>>1244289

why do you take such issue with the fact that it ties to blend to opposing thoughts together? Like honestly, what is the problem with that? Are you upset because rationally, that shouldn't make any sense, and is impossible? It's art, it doesn't have to.

>> No.1244302

>> doesn't realize that human nature is contradictory
>> doesn't realize that contradiction in literature has produced some of the greatest works of all time
>> is a tripfag

>> No.1244304

>>1244289
Well, why don't you propose a better name for this subgenre of fiction literature or subset of fantasy literature?

It seems only the title is what throws you off, and that's just bitching. What else?

I mean, sure, you have a realistic setting and you throw in some fantasy elements.
The whole idea behind magical realism is a contradiction, that's a big portion of its purpose. How characters cope with things that should not be happening.

What's wrong in stories like that?

>> No.1244316

>Deep&Edgy

>Has an empty and meaningless life

>Decides to troll /lit/ with his nonsense

>Everyone begins to hate him

>Start thread about Mr.Borges, one of the greatest writers of the 20th century.

I pity you.

>> No.1244317

>>1244302
>doesn't realize that human nature is contradictory
For one thing, try defining human nature bro. Secondly, you're trying to apply logic to something outside the bounds of logic, and probably reason. This is idiotic.

>doesn't realize that contradiction in literature has produced some of the greatest works of all time
I'm not talking about works, I'm talking about critical practice

>It seems only the title is what throws you off, and that's just bitching. What else?
I don't like certain attitudes conveyed in magic realism that it has pretensions of trying to say anything about the world to us through the operations specific to its genre.

>The whole idea behind magical realism is a contradiction, that's a big portion of its purpose. How characters cope with things that should not be happening.
This isn't really all that magical realism is though, (or at least I should hope not). I should think the vast majority of, for example, horror movies, aren't works of magical realism

>> No.1244320

>>1244317
>>doesn't realize that human nature is contradictory
I could probably have said that better= there are no contradictions in the world.

>> No.1244322

>I don't like certain attitudes conveyed in magic realism that it has pretensions of trying to say anything about the world to us through the operations specific to its genre.

Wait...don't all things try to explain the world to us through the operations specific to itself?

wat?

>> No.1244325

>>1244322
>Wait...don't all things try to explain the world to us through the operations specific to itself?

no dude that is just gibberish, get back on track

>> No.1244342

"I could probably have said that better= there are no contradictions in the world."

Okay, guys, that's it. It's clear he's a moron and desperate for some intellectual validation. Time to pack up and get on out of here.

>> No.1244354
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1244354

>>1244342
I figured this out a long time ago. Then I discovered THIS device. Pick related.

>> No.1244364
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1244364

>>1244079
wow someone that doesn't lump me in with trolls against the popular opinion. my hats off to you friend :)

>> No.1244380

>>1244019

>spic

DeepandEdgy's a racist. Wow. Learn something new every day...

>> No.1244396

>>1244218

>(it worked with tybrax...)

...no. Tybrax is still here she just took "TyBrax" out of her trip. She's in this thread, actually.

>> No.1244398

>>1244396

I know, s/he stopped being so obnoxious though.

>> No.1244399

>>1244380
>DeepandEdgy's a racist.
>Inferring from using racial slurs
Hi liberal America

>>1244342
Show me a contradiction in the world you degenerate swine

>> No.1244401
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1244401

And /lit/ has another bad day...

>> No.1244403

>>1244399
w hat

why are you using racist slurs, duder

>> No.1244405
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1244405

D&E what is that thing you call "noise" in certain works of fiction again?

>> No.1244406

>>1244297

Oh, come now, that's nonsense. I'm not convinced that 'magic' and 'realism' do oppose each other: authors considered foundational to the realist form often incorporate heavily metaphorical vision, exaggerated characters or generic parody and unreliable narrators (I'm thinking of Dickens and Fielding). Meanwhile, does the 'magic' in 'magic realism' really come from fantasy, where the fantastic is an explainable part of the world rather than an eruption into it? But never mind all this; let's accept that it's 'contradictory'. What, then, is the problem? Many of Shakespeare's plays are contradictory fusions of comedy and tragedy, with endings that combine both forms (I think particularly of 'Anthony and Cleopatra' or 'Measure For Measure'), so are Shakespeare's plays nonsense because their formal conventions 'contradict'? Artists are engaged as technicians in the blending, modification, subversion, separation and shaking-up of formal conventions; in the end that is all they have, and every word they choose to lay down takes its effect from what Bakhtin called the taste it leaves in one's mouth - i.e., its conventional position. What's your problem if they start productively cross-breeding? Hell, the 'contradiction', the incongruity, is part of the effect, part of the point, and part of what power it can be said to exert - which is, in my opinion, plenty.

>> No.1244407

>>1244401

oh shit not you

>> No.1244414

>>1244019
>spic
Borges blood line can be traced back to the 16th C. His ancestors, from both Spain and England, include officers in the Liberty wars, poets, philosophers, psychologists and what not.

What have you or your family done, D&E?

>> No.1244415
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1244415

captched: bersted cum

>> No.1244434

>>1244406
This is a good, solid post. This has been pretty much played out, and you're right in pointing out that there is not really a clear cut opposition between the two modes, and in fact I should think the one gets its meaning through its difference with the other and thus is inseparable yadda yadda yadda; as for presenting contradictions in the actual content of a text, not a problem as this is hardly specific to any one movement in literature. Combining forms isn't really an issue anyway because these structures aren't set in stone, and as you say, we might take the disruption of these structures/conventions to be a significant part of the creative process etc.

>>1244414
>What have you or your family done, D&E?
Not been part of the disgusting bourgeouis class.

>> No.1244439
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1244439

>>1244434
D&E confirmed for trailer-park red-neck

>> No.1244442

>>1244439
>does not know what the proletariat is

>> No.1244444

I like how everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is catching on to how stupid Deep & Edgy is.

I'm embarrassed for him.

>> No.1244453

>>1244444
I like how even if that was true it would be a real put-down and a damning indictment for the rest of you

>> No.1244455
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1244455

>> No.1244462

OP its what intellectuals call fantasy because they like can not possibly be fantasy because thats even worse than science fiction
>stoplikingwhatilike.jpg

>> No.1244463

>>1244455
Ok bro I'm glad you have at least the good sense to keep your stupid mouth shut while you sage me

>> No.1244465

>Magic Realism
>Science Fiction

>> No.1244467
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1244467

>> No.1244477

>>1244463
deep edge is mad lollol

>> No.1244495

deep&edgy, you can make greats troll threads in /sci/ because here, you suck. Go and try it there.

>> No.1244499

>>1244495

I tried it once, we argued down to it be a matter of the acceptance or rejection of axioms and pyrrhonian skepticism. Very dry, and you have be a little more careful about what you say because they know a thing or two about logic. I'll probably be deleting this thread so get your parting shots in if you have any.