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1240221

Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:27:40 2010 No.1240221 [Reply] [Original]

Got some questions for you folks about a Norse mythology tale.

So Fenrir the wolf is growing out of control and is a greater danger with every passing day. The gods have to chain him up. Thor fucks it up, so they go to the dwarves and get a brand name leash. The only one brave enough to chain the wolf is Tyr, and the only way he can do it is to put his right hand in Fenrir's mouth. The chain is strong enough this time and Fenrir angrily rips off Tyr's hand, leaving the god maimed.

What follows this is the thing that's bothering me. I've read versions where the other gods were sorrowful over Tyr's loss. I've read versions where the others seemed to ignore Tyr and laughed and mocked Fenrir as he tried to break the chain. And then I've read versions where the other gods actually laughed and mocked TYR for losing his hand. This last one I find particularly interesting.

So my questions are: which version is canon? Is one the original and the rest rewrites? What versions have you guys read?

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:30:40 2010 No.1240227 File: 1.15 MB, 1504x2777, viking_books.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Looks like you have some research to do

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:41:40 2010 No.1240257 >>1240227 I'm no expert, but isn't Beowulf Anglo-Saxon not Norse?

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Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:42:40 2010 No.1240264

>>1240257
Yes, but similar language groups, cultures, and religions are mixed together in that chart. Beowulf marks the transition from Paganism to Christianity. At many points you can tell where some bit of Christian theology has been hamfistedly shoved into a fundamentally unreligious tale.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:43:40 2010 No.1240271 There is no canon. That's not how these old legends work.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:46:40 2010 No.1240280 The way I read it was that Tyr and the rest of the Gods knew he was going to have his hand ripped off but he just decided to do it. Everyone was gracious of him, but they were all expecting it so there was no real reaction to it hapenning.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:47:24 2010 No.1240289 You've got a fundamental misunderstanding of mythology if you're expecting there to be a concise canon

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Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:53:40 2010 No.1240307

As far as I can tell, the gods didn't really make fun of him for it. They needed to trap Fenrir, and Fenrir obviously expected some sort of magical dickery when they brought out a tiny little silk rope, so Tyr put his hand in Fenrir's mouth as a guarantee. They laughed at Fenrir, though, as he struggled to break lose from the ever-tightening rope.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:55:40 2010 No.1240312 >>1240271 >>1240289 True, but Norse generally seems to have early and later versions. Like how the Valkyries used to be shrieking demons, and they retconned them into hot blondes that carry you to a beer hall.

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Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:56:40 2010 No.1240313

It went basically like this:
Gods: "Heya Fenrir, bet you can't break this leash!"
Fenrir: "Like hell I can."
Gods: "Ok, let us bind you and then you try."
Fenrir: "Yeah Ok. But just in case I couldn't break it, I mean of course I can, but if I couldn't would you take the leash from me afterwards?"
Gods: "Sure, dude."
Fenrir: "Ok, I'll try but one of you has to put his hand in my mouth. Just in case."
Tyr: "Uhh, Ok, I will..."
Gods: "Haha, ownd!"

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 27 18:58:40 2010 No.1240319 >>1240313 You know Tyr is a God too, he was in on the whole thing.

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Anonymous Wed Oct 27 19:03:40 2010 No.1240329

It would vary depending on the storyteller. On a broader level, the cultural importance of certain gods shift over time, and so the reactions to their deeds or even who a deed gets attributed to can shift because of favour of worship and politics.

Tyr is actually a good example of this. There are indications mythologically and etymologically that indicate he once had a very high standing in the Norse Pantheon, perhaps even occupying the Father of the Gods position. As we know of the position, it is primarily occupied by Odin, and the differing accounts you list may be representative of this power shift (Tyr is respected when he's the big Kahuna, mocked for his foolishness when the sagacity fo Odin is being played up). It's probably a smear tactic used to emphasize the importance of one god over another.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 01:35:40 2010 No.1241202 bump

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 01:38:40 2010 No.1241208 I'm not sure the terms "original" and "rewrites" apply to mythology. There's no canon, just versionw with different degrees of prevalence.

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Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:34:40 2010 No.1241315

>>1240221
>So Fenrir the wolf is growing out of control and is a greater danger with every passing day.

What did Fenrir ever do to anybody? I thought the gods decided to chain him up because they saw that he would kill one of them in the future. And of course the reason he's so pissed off at the gods in the future is that they chained him up for no goddamn reason.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:38:40 2010 No.1241322 >>1241315 SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME MAN HAS HATED FUCKING TIME LOOPS

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Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:41:40 2010 No.1241333

I find the use of the term "canon" amusing, because it is a modern reference to an old, established concept: that of a religious canon, an officially accepted authoritative set of texts.

Because the set of traditions we describe as "Norse" belonged to a population that lacked strong central leadership, or even consistent communication between settlements, there is no "Norse Cannon". Without an ecumenical authority, how could there be?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:45:40 2010 No.1241340 >>1240329 I read once that Tyr, Thor and Odin were fragmented re-representations of an older god named Tiwaz.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:49:40 2010 No.1241344 >>1241340 Interesting. I've never read that. Where'd you find that at?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:53:40 2010 No.1241349 >>1241344 It was extra reading for a class I took several years ago. I don't remember too clearly. The book was called Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, by H.R. Ellis Davidson.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:54:40 2010 No.1241354 Where's a good place/book/whatever to read up on Norse mythology?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:57:40 2010 No.1241360 >>1241349 I've heard of Davidson. I think my brother has that book.

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Anonymous Thu Oct 28 02:58:40 2010 No.1241364

>>1241354
The aforementioned Gods & Myths for history, Edith Hamilton's Mythology for the basics.

The Elder Eddas, the Voluspa for primary source. For good narrative, the Prose Edda of Snorri Sturlusson and the Icelandic Sagas. Try the Volsung saga or the Nibelungenlied afterward to get a sense for how the mythology changed over time. Those and several sections of the Eddas all tell the story of the great hero Sigurd, but in different ways with different emphases.