The Illiad

[Anonymous No.12269529]

Ok, I'm gonna read this book right after I finish with this Greek history and the book called "the Trojan war". But before I begin I would just like to know, why am I reading this book again? Without pointing out any spoilers can you tell me what I should take away from this book? Like, just so it doesn't go over my head what things should I look out for? And if I'm too low iq to see what significance this book will play in me understanding it's relevance in the development of the western cannon, what commentaries or resources are there out there that i can read or watch just to know I'm getting the most out of this book before I move on to the Odyssey?

[Anonymous No.12269541]

>>12269529
It's a book every man who considers himself as manly should read.

[Anonymous No.12269554]

honestly - it was written to be entertainment.

>>12269541
don't be a faggot

[Anonymous No.12269561]

>>12269554
So you disagree?

[Anonymous No.12269573]

>>12269561
on several levels

[Anonymous No.12269575]

>>12269554
Then why is it always offered? I thought it was gonna give me some insight into the thinking of man or have a moral story that will help me understand the mentality of the West But instead it's just another piece of fiction for upperclass men to spunk over?

[Anonymous No.12269583]

>>12269541
And how will this book help with that?

[Anonymous No.12269597]

>>12269583
The very essence of manliness lives between this book's pages. Read it.

[Anonymous No.12269616]

>>12269575
well peisistratus took it and made it holy writ & it became the basis of all classical greek culture (and by extension roman culture) but actually it's 3000 year old shakespeare

[Anonymous No.12269623]

>>12269616
when does the actual practical stuff come in? Like philosophy and stuff. Is there any practical use in reading ancient Greek lit?

[Anonymous No.12269631]

The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.

The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.

Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.

Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.

Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.

Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."

And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.

Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.

A few hundred years later, Socrates would invoke Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”

But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.

[Anonymous No.12269633]

>>12269623
>practical stuff
Pseud alter!

[Anonymous No.12269634]

>>12269623
If you’re looking for practical use you might as well just skip fiction all together. Honestly.

[Anonymous No.12269642]

>>12269633
How, sway?

[Anonymous No.12269646]

>>12269634
I'm sure there's something in fiction too. when I say practical I don't necessarily mean How I can use it in real life. Even if it's something that can help me understand better the human mind then that would be great. Something introspective or enlightening.

[Anonymous No.12269657]

>>12269623
only in terms of understanding early european history, religion, and sociology. no philosophy & stuff.

[Anonymous No.12269664]

>>12269623
why are you reading this shit then?

>start with the greeks
applies to both literature and philosophy but not in the same exact way. why would anyone read about the trojan war when they're just trying to get to hegel or something? makes no sense

just read about the important philosophical works in chronological order, there's books that go over this (russell, tarnas, etc, pick one), dont waste your time with the other shit

[Anonymous No.12269670]

>>12269631
Ok, this is what I'm looking for. Thanks anon. One more question though, how influential was the illiad? If Socrates was following the example of Achilles then how comes he was executed when he was following the example of one of the greatest examples of a human being for his time?

[Anonymous No.12269678]

>>12269657
Yeah, history and sociology is what I'm looking into since it does have some practical value in that it makes me understand the world around me better.

[Anonymous No.12269685]

>>12269664
Not just philosophy I'm interested in but also making sense of the world around me. I thinks the Iliad will help with that.

[Anonymous No.12269692]

>>12269670
It was incredibly influential.

>But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings

[Anonymous No.12269701]

>>12269646
All literature is introspective. What are you even asking saying, dude? Stop acting like reading is some noble pursuit and just enjoy it. You can't just read one work and become some literati faggot, what you are looking is developed over time.

Just read the damn thing. It's a story that has been passed down for 3000 years. It's a genuinely enjoyable read.

[Anonymous No.12269708]

>>12269670
Socrates was old anyways, if he ran away it would tarnish his teachings.
He martyred himself.

[Anonymous No.12269711]

>>12269692
Based

[Anonymous No.12269716]

>>12269701
Ok, poo poo head. Which translation would you recommend? Not a pseud one but an easy to read and enjoyable translation.

[Anonymous No.12269802]

>>12269716
Lattimore

[Anonymous No.12269841]

>>12269802
Is that just because it's the translation in my OP or because it's actually good?

[Anonymous No.12269862]

>>12269716
Read Fagles. Fagles is the easiest to read.
Don't listen to >>12269802

[Anonymous No.12269944]

>>12269862
Oky dokey

[Anonymous No.12270034]

>>12269583
well at the very least you'll hear about a ton of very manly guys who are killed and discarded in summary fashion, perhaps making you think critically about masculinity, i dunno

[Anonymous No.12270130]

>>12269944
Read Lombardo. Lombardo is even easier to read.
Don't listen to >>12269862

[Anonymous No.12270521]

>>12269529
>why am I reading this book again
If you have to ask this you don't know anything about history or literature.

[Anonymous No.12272411]

How is the Fitzgerald translation? The Fagles version doesn't seem nearly as interesting.

[Anonymous No.12272434]

Can someone please post that infographic that compares the translations

[Anonymous No.12272472]

>>12272434
This one?

[Anonymous No.12272486]

>>12272472
If you aren't reading Pope's translation or the original Greek then you are a pleb.

[Anonymous No.12272499]

Can anyone tell me if Green is any good?

[Anonymous No.12272527]

>>12272472
That's the one. Thanks anon

[Anonymous No.12272535]

>>12269631
You're missing a whole facet of Achilles here - his selfishness. Rage, rage which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians.

[Anonymous No.12272538]

>>12272472
>those last 2 lines in Fagles
Fucking based

[Anonymous No.12272589]

>>12272472
sorry if this is a dumb question, but how are these all so different when they are translating the same thing?

[Anonymous No.12272599]

>>12269716
>>12269944
Read Butler. Butler is the easiest to read. Don't listen to >>12270130

[Anonymous No.12272624]

>>12272589
Some Greek words can have multiple meanings depending on context and the intent of the author. Also, since this was written in Ancient Greek, some words have lost their original meanings.

[Anonymous No.12272630]

>>12272589
>Steve wrote that 2+2=4.
>Steve wrote that two plus two equals four.
>Steve wrote that two added onto itself totals four.
>"Two and two, once added, equal four" Steven wrote.

Sentences are structured differently and word definitions don't match up, meaning translators have to interpret what the author is trying to say rather than what the text literally says. They tend to disagree on finer details, resulting in significant differences in translations. You can see in the comparison that Fitzgerald uses much more aggressive language than Fagles, for example.

[Anonymous No.12272713]

>>12272535
Isn't it a lot more complicated than mere selfishness? The supernatural rage (menis) of Achilles was part of Zeus's plan (the dios boule) mentioned in the first few lines. Zeus was the prime mover of slaughter using Achilles as his puppet. Achilles realizes he is being played later in the work, but can't stop it. Hence the associated Homeric anger distinctions to menis like kotos and kholos which allude to whether or not Achilles anger is truly controllable (and hence responsible for his actions). Achilles anger is a sort of blood feud that can't stop until it brings about its ends, i.e. the telos of zeus's plan.

[Anonymous No.12272776]

>>12272472
Fitz's is my favorite

[Anonymous No.12273520]

>>12269529
There's no reason to read the classics if you can't read them in their original language. Otherwise you're just getting some asshole's interpretation.

[Anonymous No.12273539]

>>12273520
If you read in the original language you're still just getting some asshole's interpretation. Can't really get away from that I'm afraid

[Anonymous No.12273571]

You read it so you seem cultured at fancy cocktail parties. It's very important. All educated people until 60 years ago knew this, anon. It's not even fucking difficult just read the damn thing.

[Anonymous No.12273579]

>>12273571
you don't seem very cultured

[Anonymous No.12274689]

>>12270034
what about the amazons?

[Anonymous No.12274741]

>>12269529
whole books have been written just about the first word menis.homer communicates much with just a single line.homeric scholarship is a noble pursuit that will last a lifetime.

[Anonymous No.12274766]

>>12274741
>whole books have been written just about the first word menis
Autistic overanalysis can be applied to Harry Potter too. It's not valuable in itself.

[Anonymous No.12274768]

>>12273579
Whiter than you, Mohammad

[Anonymous No.12274806]

>>12274766
a thorough understanding of the first word of iliad is important.the whole of western canon hinges upon that word.gtfo with that harry potter comparison.

[Anonymous No.12274898]

>>12274768
hes probably a cohen not a muhammad

[Anonymous No.12274988]

>>12269529
professor Elizabeth Vandiver gives a 6 hour lecture about the iliad of homer for the teaching company's great courses,just search for ''ttc iliad'' on torrent sites .she has great insight and absolutely loves homer.

[Anonymous No.12275069]

>>12274898
i'm anglo fyi

[Anonymous No.12275095]

>>12274988
https://openpirate.org/torrent/7875608/TTC_Video_-_Iliad_of_Homer

[Anonymous No.12275122]

>>12274988
er is that her in the image?

[Anonymous No.12275127]

>>12275122
yeah

[Anonymous No.12275129]

>>12275127
6 hours?
i'll give it a miss

[Anonymous No.12275304]

>>12272713
Of course, yes, it's more complicated than just selfishness. However I think it's important to recognize that Achilles felt guilt over his actions and he didn't -directly- blame Zeus for his own anger. He rightly feels somewhat responsible for the death of Patroklus. When he and Agamemnon go to apologize, though, it is Agamemnon who claims Zeus put koros into his heart and made him dishonor Achilles. He doesn't accept responsibility at all.

If I'm interpreting this wrong please advise because you seem to be knowledgeable about Homer

[Anonymous No.12275428]

>>12275304
agamemnon offers wealth ,women and citys in scroll IX,its a humbling act but i dont think he accepts responsibility.