/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12260145]

Long shot but are there any Muslims around /lit/? Looking to understand the basics of Islam, going straight to the Quran didn't help, I was impressed by some verses of the translation I was reading but I was too confused about it on the whole to get very far into it. Many parts of it feel like an abbreviated version of the Bible. They only made sense to me because I had I guess the "prerequisite" knowledge from knowing the Bible. I have the "Foundations of Islam" by the revert Ian Dallas but is there a better place to start to get the basics?

[Anonymous No.12260174]

are you trying to convert to islam?

[Anonymous No.12260183]

There are a couple of heterodox Sufis here who will give you a highly distorted image of what mainstream Islam looks like, so be careful.

[Anonymous No.12260194]

>>12260145
Read Murad.

[Anonymous No.12260196]

>>12260145

I started with Sufi Essays Seyyed Nasr but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it if you're interested in Islam as it's popularly practiced (Sunni). But he does give a good general overview of some principles of the average Muslim. But I gotta be real with you, as a Muslim, specifically as a recent convert (only started reading Qur'an last year and converted officially in August), Islam isn't something you turn towards for just the philosophy the way people often do with Eastern religions like Hinduism and Taoism. Islam only makes sense if you practice it and experience what is being told to you. The Qur'an is genuinely the only book you actually need on the manner as it capsulizes the whole of what our religion is about. And if it doesn't resonate with you, but you still feel drawn, maybe you just need some time. But don't read the Qur'an as literature and don't read it as "the Bible's shorter cousin". It's a book that calls for discipline and hard work, it's a guide to mankind and should be treated as such. Sorry if this doesn't really answer your question but I'm basically just trying to articulate that Islam is not really worthwhile as "some other religion to look into while i gloss over other things", you won't be wowed by cool phrases like what you get from the Buddha or Upanishads or even the NT. It's a very strict and clear book with a specific purpose, if you are looking for religious text as literature, just read the Bible. And if you're confused on the Qur'an's message, to put it shortly it's more or less "Submit to God, listen to the Prophet (SAW), stay on the Straight Path (which is described in great detail)"

[Anonymous No.12260202]

>>12260145
Just go read the study Quran and have it broken down to you line by line. They do a better job explaining it to you than I ever could

[Anonymous No.12260203]

>>12260145
Muslim here. I'm going to suggest that you go to either a mosque if there's one local to you or if there's any Islamic bookstore. Get yourself some basic introductory books dealing primarily with doctrine. And read the biography of the Prophet Muhammad(saas) to get an understanding of the time and place of the revelation of Qur'an.
There's a lot to learn about Islam and my opinion is that it's best to begin with the foundations and things like the articles of faith(there's 6) and the compulsory practises(there's 5).

After those you can read Qur'an translation and some tafsir - commentary of the Qur'an - alongside it. Then also some hadith, starting with the sahih hadith.

I think it's important that you get in touch with some Muslims via the mosque or somewhere else which you can trust and they can help you with your studies, rather than obtaining anonymous tips from here but I hope nevertheless that I've given the right advice.

[Anonymous No.12260208]

>>12260196
listen to the white boy

[Anonymous No.12260213]

>>12260203
>>12260202
>>12260196

[Anonymous No.12260216]

>>12260196
Not OP, but mind telling me what it was that caused your conversion? You seem like a Westerner assuming I've read you right, and I'm just curious as to what inspired you to head down the path you now do.

[Anonymous No.12260223]

>>12260208
I'm white too. Prophet Muhammad(saas) said: a white man is not better than a coloured man and a coloured man is not better than a white man, and an arab is not better than a non-arab and a non-arab is not better than an arab.

In Islam there's no nationalism and no racism.

[Anonymous No.12260225]

>>12260145
>realize that the quran is supposed to be read chronologically
>realize that as he gains power muhammad begins to resemble a bloodthirsty warlord moreso than a prophet
>realize that all of the claims of islam rely solely on the testimony of a single desert warlord
>dismiss islam
No need to thank me *tips miter*

[Anonymous No.12260237]

>>12260216

Sure, and yeah I'm American. Well last year I got into the occult and started practicing magick and getting connected with nature and the universe and all that, but it just wasn't fulfilling to me. Occult mysteries are very cool and dazzling but ultimately a complication of what can be made very simple through faith alone. Being a witch didn't prove a fulfilling purpose to me and I knew that I was yearning for something more substantial. And I guess through some series of synchronicities I was lead to Sufism, and when I got more serious, Sunni Islam. Having gotten into spirituality through magick, I didn't have a hard time being open to the fact that God could be there and have a relationship to mankind, whereas I know a lot of people struggle with that sort of thing. But even then, I didn't REALLY take Islam seriously until I actually FELT God's presence with me. And this is very important to distinguish, the difference between knowing God's existence and feeling it. A prayed a good amount, and overtime these prayers became more powerful, until one day I had this light in my heart and I simply knew what was going on. I took my shahadah (testament of faith) soon after this and the light has only continued to grow. Now it can be very great in my heart and I feel so close to God at times it can be like I can touch him. And I am someone whose life had been filled with much wretchedness. Sexual deviance, drug indulgence, all sorts of abhorrent habits that I've been learning to rid through upholding the principles of Islam. And it's not easy at all and I'm certainly not good at the stuff, but I do try, and it's more rewarding than anything I've ever had. Islam is a beautiful religion but you must feel it in your heart if you're going to follow, otherwise, it will just be overwhelming. And for you, or anyone else whose worried about the aspect of struggling with faith and certainty, just remember that's totally fine. Struggling is good because you always come out stronger so long as you cling to it in your heart. Wish you luck, Allahumma baarik lahu.

[Anonymous No.12260239]

>>12260174
More open to it than trying
>>12260196
>It's a very strict and clear book with a specific purpose
Yes this is the sense I was getting. I'm too far removed from the context to actually appreciate what is going on
>>12260203
>I think it's important that you get in touch with some Muslims via the mosque or somewhere else which you can trust and they can help you with your studies, rather than obtaining anonymous tips from here but I hope nevertheless that I've given the right advice.
Everything you said is true. As you and the above poster has said Islam isn't something you can do by yourself it is a very practical thing. Also surprised there are this many Muslims on 4chan but I guess I shouldn't be

[Anonymous No.12260245]

>>12260196
I think OP just wants to learn and study Islam. If he converts or doesn't or was thinking about embracing Islam or not it's fine, he can still learn as he likes. I think it's a good thing. You're right though, Islam is either in or out, there's clearly only believers and non-believers and it's not something that people can take a bit from like how hipsters are "buddhists" or whatever. People who are "half" Muslim aren't really Muslim. But he'll understand that once he learns about things like: creed, doctrine, jurisprudence within Islam.

Mash'Allah @ you brother

[Anonymous No.12260259]

>>12260245

Salam, & I agree with you. I just wanted to make sure he understood, as I see a lot of people on this board approach it with the same aesthetic sensibilities as those who read the NT for literary quality. And then they complain about it not being as well written or this and that, and wallah they miss the whole point!

[Anonymous No.12260288]

>>12260237
Wow, thank you for such an extensive and well-written response. I'm not looking into Islam or anything like that, but I was simply curious of what draws a modern-day Westerner towards it. I'm ethnically Hindu and I love my culture, though I don't believe in the notions of an "exclusive God", personally, and view God as watching over all, equally. I'm really happy for you, that you've found a path which has brought light into your life.

What was it about Islam, specifically, and not something similar like Christianity which made you choose it? I just felt Christianity has much in common with Islam (as compared to Eastern religion, say) but is obviously more-accessible for a Westerner. Is it Islam specifically, then, and everything surrounding it, or is it primarily the disciplined principles and lifestyle which you adhere to by following it? You seem, despite being new to theism, to be of the kind of soul which has an innate understanding of how a religious lifestyle can benefit someone, and how someone should approach said lifestyle in their attitude, which tells me you will definitely be successful heading down this road. Take care friend, I wish you well in your life.

[Anonymous No.12260312]

>>12260259
Wa'salaam brother. Yes indeed. The Qur'an itself is not like any book.

>>12260239
>Also surprised there are this many Muslims on 4chan but I guess I shouldn't be.
No, you shouldn't be :^)

[Anonymous No.12260413]

>>12260288

Wow thank you for that, I wish you the same, it is not often I see such genuine and nice people here!

And for me, Islam just felt more tangible and practical. First off, I'm black, and black Americans have had an interesting relationship with Islam for many years now, whether through the NOI cult or actual orthodoxy. There's a large black, Sunni community near me so that definitely helped me, and people like Malcolm X I always looked up to were inspiring as well. But that's just political preferences. Spiritually, it just felt a lot more clear and palatable for me. Christianity is very pagan despite their claims against it and because of that I feel that, while their religion holds great truth, there is much that is diluted as well, and therefore not wholly trustworthy (not to discredit the Bible per se, more so the Church). Muslims have always been very nice to me, whether irl or url, there is a sense of community in Islam that is often quite absent with Western Christians. But ultimately, it's the sheer pragmatism of the Qur'an that I love. It tells you what to do, you do it, and the rewards become clear through your experiences. And I am someone who is very interested in metaphysics, spiritual philosophies, and the sort, so the simplicity of the Qur'an interested me greatly because it solves many riddles that people find vexing in Western Philosophy through concise terms. I agree that there is no such thing as Christian, Muslim, or whatever God. There is One God and mankind has known this since time immemorial, there are many ways to get to Him and Islam is a very beautiful one. Thank you for your kind words again, I wish you many blessings and good fortune.

[Anonymous No.12260432]

>>12260413
>Christianity is very pagan
not black or american but my vague knowledge of the black evangelic scene is that its all hucksters and happy clapping. Though this is a common strain in all American protestantism

[Anonymous No.12260435]

>>12260145
>taking islam seriously past the 12th century
is there anything more pathetic

[Anonymous No.12260454]

>>12260413
>Christianity is very pagan despite their claims against
What do you mean? Christians were debating pagans and gnostics for centuries.

I agree with you that a lot of western Christians can be a real piece of poo but I honestly think that's just a western thing. When you look at the westboro Baptist church, the independent fundamentalist baptist church and even the Christian identity movement it can seem like Christianity is a religion for middle and upper class whites who only care about themselves but understand that the west, although working hard to spread the message of Christianity, has also ruined it with the people like Joel osteen who preach a properity gospel. Even the Romans Catholic church has ruined it with their sacramental system and telling people that unless they're perfect they'll go purgatory and such, leading to a form of semi Pelagianism.

The Christian message is that God came down in the form of his creation, suffered at the hands of his creation to save us from our sins. And simply trusting in his work you will be saved and because of this we can sleep soundly at night not worrying about hell because we know that Christ has already fulfilled the law and we simply hold on to his finished work on the cross.

[Anonymous No.12260502]

>>12260145

Curious non-Muslim here. I probably won't go to my local Mosque just yet...I live in Harlem so I know there are plenty around, including NOI places. Malcom X Boulevard is a block away from me.

I will read up and keep in mind the comments here.

>>12260413
Good post.

[Anonymous No.12260545]

Just a general reminder for everyone, and y'all probably know this already but anyway, there's no compulsion - to convert - in Islam. It's perfectly reasonable for a non-Muslim to ask Muslims about Islam and the Muslims will do their best to answer any questions that they know the answer of or to direct you to someone else who might know better.
There's no proselytizing in Islam, we as Muslims are not commanded to reach out for converts. Islam has no hidden knowledge, whatever you want to know about someone will help you, there's no secrets that you'll find out about later but it is up to each individual to seek and acquire his own knowledge. So, no need to be shy.

[Anonymous No.12260590]

>>12260454

I just mean pagan in that it involves idol worship and deification of humans. I don't mean to be rude I am just using the definitions of my perspective and I hold them to be true. We don't believe that Jesus is God incarnate, but a prophet with the same message as the others. A great prophet with beautiful words of course, but to deify Jesus, put up idols of him, art, etc. This is pagan, at least from a Muslim viewpoint.

[Anonymous No.12260665]

>>12260590
How do we worship idols? We never do. Depending on which church you go to some, like mine, can be very iconoclastic. Meaning they do not allow any physical image or even pictures in the church. I used to be an iconoclast but renounced that once I realised that the complete denial of physical images is not a biblical view of things. I'll give you an example. In 2 Kings 18:4 we see Moses being told to erect a cross and to place a snake on it and whoever has been biten by a snake and then looks at this golden snake on the cross will be healed of their disease. This right here means that God has no issues with physical images. Later on this snake is destroyed because people start worshiping it and that's what idolatry is. I'm guessing that you think because some people have crosses in their homes that's idolatry but it's not. The cross represents a historical event where our Lord gave himself up for us and we look back at that as the perfect example of patience, love and sacrifice. You might see some people bow before the cross or kiss it, and I'll admit this is weird, but idolatry only happens when you worship a physical image, not simply have it in your presence.

The Muslim view of idolatry is weird. They also think Jews are polytheist because they take the sayings of their rabbis highly. You're creating your own definitions of what is and isn't idolatry and then imposing it on my religion. What if another religion came in the future and said that it is blasphemous to say (pbuh) after Muhammed's name? You would be like "so what that's just what you think." Crucifix aren't idols. This is a common outsider presumption that people have but if you actually talk to a Christian they would easily explaine things to you.

[Anonymous No.12260702]

>>12260413
Islam is very pagan. I consider myself culturally muslim cause I dont believe anyone spoke to angels or anything like that. Islam is literally a mixture Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Animism along with ancient Arabian tribal rituals.

[Anonymous No.12260710]

>>12260702
just look at the satanic verses

[Anonymous No.12260717]

reminder that islamic societies have disproportionate rates of homosexual pedophilia and this has always been the case, and holds not only outside of Semitic nations but is even worse in “aryan” states like Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The problem is just as prevalent in Indonesia and North Africa

what did mudslimes mean by this?

[Anonymous No.12260728]

>>12260710
I have. Rushdie is a decent writer, but the infamy overrated him. I refuse to be an ex muslim like him though cause I think its cowardly and the ultimate cuck move to do especially when Islam is at its darkest most hated time thanks to the spread of salafism and the hanbali school of sharia.

[Anonymous No.12260732]

>>12260665
To be honest, Islam is particularly strict on iconography, but thats mostly because the Arabs were polytheistic idolaters before that and Muhammad wanted to eradicate those strains completely. Portraits of him were drawn in persia and india, which never completely got arabized.
>>12260196
Interesting because I am an ex muslim. Islam is defintely not the satanic cult that most polfags believe it is, and its mistly peaceful too. However, the religion itself is full of contradictions and is ultimately a valiant, but failed attempt. I believe in some form of God, but I cant bring myself to believe in the god of islam or any other religion.

[Anonymous No.12260745]

>>12260728
i don't mean the rushdie novel, i mean the actual pagan incident

[Anonymous No.12260759]

>>12260717
>homosexual pedophilia
societies which have this in prevalence and are not actively fighting against it are not Islamic by definition.
Homosexual practises are, and have always been, strictly forbidden in Islam.

Next time just write something like "Muslims are gay!" and we can all have a nice chuckle

[Anonymous No.12260763]

>>12260732
Dude dont be an ex muslim. I did that for years until my dad died and now I say i'm muslim even when I mean just culturally. You're probably a better person than me though cause I went off on the religion and parents heritage until I stressed my dad so much that I gave him a stroke. It haunts me what I said and did. Like all of /pol/ is nicer to muslims than what I did to my parents.

[Anonymous No.12260767]

>>12260702
>(You)

[Anonymous No.12260771]

Does it have good "antisemitic" quotes? The koran i mean

[Anonymous No.12260774]

>>12260435
yes, you

[Anonymous No.12260785]

>>12260759
>n-not real muslims

[Anonymous No.12260789]

>>12260763
To be honest, I still somewhat respect the religion. I didnt stop believing in islam because of something exclusive to islam itself, it was more disillusionment with the traditional idea of god in abrahamic religions. I still pretend i am muslim (not doing that would probably get me killed) but i dont really mind it. In fact, sufism really appeals to me. And those forms were considered heretical, so maybe i am still muslim, but a heretic.

[Anonymous No.12260793]

>>12260590
>definitions of my perspective and I hold them to be true.
Subjective invective then.
>A great prophet with beautiful words of course, but to deify Jesus, put up idols of him, art, etc. This is pagan, at least from a Muslim viewpoint.
Jesus IS God according to Christians. Christians e.g. Catholics are not worshiping objects, they are worshiping God and utilize symbolism.

[Anonymous No.12260794]

>>12260732
Understandible about iconography but they also pray to their holy spirit, which they think is the angel Gabriel, for strength and that could be considered polytheism. They even have duas to Muhammed to save them on the day of judgement. Don't make no sense maine

[Anonymous No.12260797]

>>12260785
Being a practising homosexual pedophile does not preclude someone from also being a Muslim and I didn't say that it did. You retards need to learn how to read and some basic rules of argument wouldn't hurt, might embarrass yourselves less

[Anonymous No.12260815]

>>12260794
You engage in misrepresentation and think that's a valid critique? Idiot.

[Anonymous No.12260821]

>>12260794
Not the Arabs, no. The arabs are the strictest in enforcing such things. In india and pakistan, this is common, people pray to saints and bow down to them, i dont know much about iran but maybe there as well, but not in arabia. And if you are doing such a thing, you are a heretic to orthodox muslims.

When you visit Muhammads tomb in madina, they specifically warn you not to bow or prostrate yourself, and always keep any prayer strictly towards Allah, not the prophet.

[Anonymous No.12260860]

>>12260767
I am in no way shape or form a degenerate cool muslim. I dont drink, fornicate and I do my best to be a pious man. I carry a Mohammedan name and I honor it by sticking to tradition and living a muslim lifestyle. Gays are an abomination though and I never thought otherwise if anything I support some forms of jihad to shun western lifestyle and products.

[Anonymous No.12260866]

>>12260797
cope harder shitskin

[Anonymous No.12260872]

>>12260759
>ignores the premises of the post
homosexual pedophilia is rampant in the Levant, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Morroco, Algeria are they not muslim nations? Its least common in the Eastern Mediterranean and Caucasian muslim states but very common in Central and West Asia. Idk how you rationalize that man, it sort of seems like either those races are pedo and/or muzzies promote or ignore pedo behavior and maybe even turn to it because of their insane population dynamics and social mores.
>muzzies gay
no, while i think fags are degenerates im calling muzzies gay pedophiles who fuck little boys and little girls

[Anonymous No.12260896]

>>12260145
Yes, I am a Muslim. It's pretty simple, just kill everyone who isn't a Muslim and you'll be cool with Allah.

[Anonymous No.12260902]

>>12260815
I'm not but for the sake of argument I'll agree that I am. But the quran does the same with the Bible. If you're the other guy then you said that we are Idol worshipers and that's completely wrong. I'm just a man but your book that is supposedly holy now misrepresents my beliefs. It even does the same with the Jews saying they're polytheists because they take the writings of their rabbis in high regard.

[Anonymous No.12260913]

>>12260145
Raised Muslim here, don't bother; it's full of retarded shit. If you want a hernia over how absolutely stupid it is, have at it.

If you really want to learn about Islam in a comprehensible manner, you should actually read the Islamic Studies primary/ secondary school books that children are taught with. If I recall correctly, this series is decent:
https://www.zamzamdirect.com/photos/18836.jpg

You're also going to want to learn Arabic; unless you know Arabic, it's going to be really difficult for you to verify things/ etc. (we're all taught Arabic once we start talking, and usually slowly memorise the Qur'an throughout school).

Seriously, Islam is fucking barbaric nonsense. No one with half a brain can be fucked with believing the stupid shit they spew. I feel sorry for you wasting your time with it.

[Anonymous No.12260925]

>>12260794
No one prays to Jibreel, wtf are you talking about ? Do you even know what a dua/ hadith is ? gtfo

[Anonymous No.12260926]

>>12260872
Those races are genetically deficient and need to be treated in a harsher more stricter manner to function. The Taliban would behead anyone who engaged in any form of pre-marital sex because it was necessary. People have to sto judging other races cultural practices and realizes that we are all different subspecies that behave differently and need to be treated differently. Especially the middle east where everyone is a mutt mystery meat. Theres a reason large groups like kurds and yemenis need to die from time to time.

[Anonymous No.12260968]

>>12260925
Dua and Hadith are not the same thing. Duas are requests or supplications made and hadith are the written sayings and acts of muhammed. And there is a quranic verse where they ask the angel Gabriel to strengthen them. I'm not saying you're polytheists. I'm just pointing out the fact that when you say that we are Idol worshipers it's stupid because we're not and the quran only shows it's ignorant of my faith.

[Anonymous No.12260992]

>>12260968
I know that they're not the same thing. Surat have a lot of stories in them and shouldn't be conflated with dua. What verse are you speaking of exactly ?
I don't know if you're an Idol Worshiper or not and most Muslims don't know anything about Christianity or whatever else and should probably not be making such claims (anecdotal, of course).

[Anonymous No.12260999]

>>12260992
Just to give some context, it's really taboo to talk about other faiths in the Muslim communities that I've been apart of. To the point where if you do actually have other faiths' books, you get a lot of really dirty looks and people may say something.

[Anonymous No.12261035]

>>12260992
>Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.
Surah 2:253

States that prophets are strengthened by the spirit.

And is agree that Muslims have A LOT of misconceptions about Christianity. I had to explain to a Muslim that Mary isn't the Holy spirit once on /r9k/ and that the different Bible versions in biblehub aren't evidence of the Bible being corrupted but rather are different translations. But when the quran says this:
>“And behold! God will say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah’ He will say: ‘Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.'”
Surah 5:116

I have to say that I don't believe Mary is deity. In fact not even Catholics believe that although I do think they exalt Mary to a higher place that is necessary or even biblical.

I respect Islam more than. A lot of people do. I like the zeal and orderlyness of it but understand that it does not understand my faith and so do not take the verse where it claims I'm a polytheist or idolater seriously. But I'll fight along side Muslims against the growing leftist movement going on today.

[Anonymous No.12261038]

>>12260145
if you want to understand Islam, you have to understand the life of the Prophet. I recommend Martin Lings' work(Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources).

Also, another excellent book I've been reading is The Vision of Islam, by Chittick & Murata. It's an introduction to Islam for western audiences and appeals to western academia, unlike most other works of this kind which tend to be dated.

If you are looking for a more practical book, then perhaps check out Being Muslim: A Practical Guide, by Asad Tarsin. I have not yet completed this book myself though, so I would hesitate to recommend this to anyone.

[Anonymous No.12261046]

>>12260183
yeah sufis are the most bro tier of muslims by far but they do give you the (false) impression that muslims at large have a much more nuanced and theoretically sound understanding of Islam

[Anonymous No.12261160]

According to Muslims, Muhammad was the last prophet and that his message was the God's updated message since the days of Jesus Christ. According to that logic, shouldn't Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, be considered the very last prophet thus turning Islam obsolete? After all Smith's life events are quite similar to Muhammad's including the fact that both were reached directly by God. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this: if your "religion" was founded after the death of Jesus and it derives from Christianity then it's akin to a cult and shouldn't be taken seriously

[Anonymous No.12261169]

>>12261035
Pure spirit" is an ambiguous term. Usually translating words from arabic gives way to much confusion. You're just interpreting the Quran in a particular way, this could easily mean something along the lines of exalted character.

Muslims dont believe that christians are idolators, although they do believe that they are polytheists. Islam teaches that Jesus is among the highest of men, but he was never divine. The concept of the trinity is just very opposed to strict Islamic monotheism.

[Anonymous No.12261185]

>>12261160
The fact that there can be no prophet after Muhammad is a core belief in Islam. They believe that he was the seal of the prophets, and that there can be no one else after him.

Ill do you one better - there's almost like a muslim version of mormons in south asia, the ahmadiyyas. Mirza Ghulam Qadri too claimed that he was the next prophet after Muhammad. People are still butthurt about that and actively persecute them. In fact this is so important to muslims that by definition you are not a muslim if you dont believe that muhammad was the final prophet.

[Anonymous No.12261289]

>>12260793
>Catholics are not worshiping objects, they are worshiping God and utilize symbolism.
And polytheists weren't?

[Anonymous No.12261471]

>>12261160
you don't believe any random guy who claims to be divinely inspired. If he can back up his claims - which Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did - only then would you accept their status as being legitimate prophets.

There have been plenty of people claiming prophethood, from imposters like Musaylimah back in the Prophet's days to more contemporary figures like Mirza Ghulam, the founder of the Qadiani movement(the Ahmadiyyas) and the Nation of Islam's Elijah Muhammad.

As for what constitutes genuine evidence: claimants to Prophethood usually display miracles, or relay messages from God, in addition to this we must examine their pre-morbid personality.

The reason I reject Mirza Ghulam is because not only did he specifically reject the Quran itself, which claims that the Prophet Muhammad was the final messenger to be sent to humanity(and don't give me that shit about how Messengers and Revivers are different things, this is semantics and nothing else), but he also made several predictions which failed to come about.

Also, he claimed to receive verses from God in English. See for yourself: https://imgur.com/a/eUQvT

Are you telling me God spoke to him in broken English? "You have to go Amritsar" LOL God ain't no Pajeet.

There are tonnes of other things, ranging from his fundamental lack of understanding of both Islamic and Christian scriptures, to outright declaring himself to be worthy of worship.

Links for people who want to know more: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/734sej/help_me_with_debunking_ahmadiyya_so_i_can_get_out/

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/1vltgo/some_questions_for_the_ahmadiyya_community/

[Anonymous No.12261485]

>>12260145
If you want really basic books, as in absolute basics, such as things like what a Muslim should believe in, how to pray, as well as a super basic and condensed outline of the events in early Islamic history, then maybe you could check out the Studies in Islam series by Maulvi Abdul Aziz, its what the school I went to used as part of its Islamic Studies syllabus.

There are 8 books I believe, one for each grade from first to eighth grade.

Like I said, super basic stuff.

[Anonymous No.12261498]

>>12260225
>realize that all of the claims of islam rely solely on the testimony of a single desert warlord
This is basically the main flaw, the most essential flaw. This is compounded by the fact that the hadith were written down several hundred years after his alleged death, and his biography was also only written down several hundred years later. It's an extremely unreliable tradition that's all founded on one guy. So it comes down to: what reason do I have for believing that the book this Mohammed guy allegedly brought is really the word of God? What reason do I have to follow his example or obey him? The answer to both of these questions is none. There is no reason at all to believe the Quran is really a text from God, but many reasons to reject it. Obviously there are many other flaws with Islam, but the main and most essential flaw is at the root of the religion: its prophet. Why should we accept him? There are no good reasons at all, and many good reasons to reject him and his retarded book.

[Anonymous No.12261606]

Based ruskis on 4chan

[Anonymous No.12261623]

>>12261498
the quran is the only religious text to have remained unchanged since the inception of the faith, a claim no other religion can make, and the words are God's own.

the hadith too have been preserved for the most part, although they vary in grades of reliability.

[Anonymous No.12261741]

>>12260174
>are you trying to convert to islam?
Op said revert. He is most probably Muslim. No non-Muslim calls Muslim converts reverts.

[Anonymous No.12261747]

>>12260237

>sufi
>Muslim
>feeing god
How many level of shirk is this?

The American version of every religion is shit it seems.

[Anonymous No.12261748]

>>12260145

Mohamed raped a 9 year old and his clothes was constantly covered in semen, thats not just me making it up either there are verses in the quran about it.

I have a webm about it but its to big to post on /lit/

[Anonymous No.12261755]

>>12260545

>no compulsion
>covert or die fighting in the mandatory conscription for Allah
>become enslaved
>pay jizya


Yeah, defintley isn’t be compulsive.

[Anonymous No.12261758]

>>12260590

If you actually read Saadi, or Mansur you would know Muslims are just as into idolatry, if not more. Simply because they like to define and limit god and argue for his things should be, and how they see god, instead of searching for haqq. By limiting and Allah or any god to how you understand it, you create a simulacrum which can be adequately called an idol.

[Anonymous No.12261763]

>>12260759


I see you were also raped by your local mullah, but you are own those people who like to cover it up because you thinking Allah will reward you for it.

I remember growing up when almost every boy I went to school with would report about how they were raped by the men in their family, but it is okay because officially Islam is antigay.

[Anonymous No.12261779]

>>12261471


Obviously god speaks in a language that sounds like someone choking on a dick. That’s more apt.

[Anonymous No.12261804]

>>12260545
Ya Allah Al Khafid there is some mighty Taqqiya going on in this thread

[Anonymous No.12261969]

>>12260872
The Catholic Church recently just emerged from a child child molestation scandal. That doesn't mean Christianity promotes child molestation.

[Anonymous No.12261985]

>>12261804
Taqiyya isn't an excuse to lie about anything. It's only relevant and permissible in the context of lying to save your life by verbally rejecting faith. Any other interpretation is completely wrong. Lying is a major sin, the prophet called it the root of all evil.

[Anonymous No.12261992]

>>12260145
You should read the Quran accompanied by a commentary. I know this sounds basic but it is one of the best ways to understand Islam even though it's quite lengthy. I'd suggest Ibn Kathir. For extremely basic stuff I'd reccomend the O Level Islamiat by Farkhanda Noor Muhammad. It talks about Muhammad's life as well the five pillars of Islam in sufficient detail that will help you understand historical events referenced by the Quran. The information given on War Ethics and Sharia Law making is extremely basic however and I reccomend you stick to commentaries for that.

[Anonymous No.12261997]

>>12261985

Go worship Ali somewhere else.

[Anonymous No.12262015]

>>12261755
Convert or die is the alternative given to those who are essentially war criminals. The conversion is seen as a gesture of him rejecting his previous ways. Otherwise it is just jizya which is not forced conversion. Not to mention those who paid jizya had extremely high amounts of religious freedom. Zoroasters were literally allowed to carry out incest if they paid the jizya.

[Anonymous No.12262021]

>>12262015


I didn’t say covert or die. I said covert or die fighting, if you are telling me that isn’t a Islam, you are on some level 98 taqqiya or don’t know enough about Islam.

[Anonymous No.12262025]

>>12262015

>Comparing a burecratic weberiain society to a tribal one run by goat herders.
Nice meme

[Anonymous No.12262294]

>>12261169
The pure spirit here doesn't seem to be talking about a exalted character. It says that Christ was strengthened by the pure spirit. Doesn't seem to be talking about a man here but an actual spiritual being based in the verse.

Also, interesting you say the quran calls us polytheists since it never once actually gives a verse where it condemns our belief. What it does do is condemn other beliefs that the quran mistakes for what Christians believe.

[Anonymous No.12262308]

>>12261623
>a claim no religion can make
Fixed.
You have no proof that the current quran is the same as the oral stories that were told before it was compiled and written down

[Anonymous No.12262455]

>>12261748
I think I remember this one, ewwwww why'd you remind me

[Anonymous No.12262461]

>>12261748
What verses?


The Quran hardly talks about Mohammad’s own life.

[Anonymous No.12262466]

>>12261763
Is this real, dude? I know the basics of their attraction to young boys, but why is it so common? Specifically because it's repressed?

[Anonymous No.12262476]

>>12261763
Specifically because homosexuality is forbidden? And thereby instills an unnatural repression in the men? Why young boys, though, and not teenage or adult males?

[Anonymous No.12262512]

>>12260145
Not a Muslim but a FBI agent. What did you need to know specifically? I'm highly trained to convert people and entrap them in the ways of Mohammad, peace be on his name.

[Anonymous No.12262643]

yes, ama

[Anonymous No.12262684]

>>12261779
Yeah man, didn't you know that Arabic is the true, Divine language? God's favorite Earthly tongue. You're 1400 years late, friend.

[Anonymous No.12262688]

>>12261969
>emerged from
>i-it's done now, guys, the pope said so himself

[Anonymous No.12262720]

I just find it really funny and silly when a book written by Bedouins 600 YEARS after the death of Jesus has their own, new information regarding what REALLY happened to him, which claims the original scriptural-historical details given to be incorrect. It reads like an Arabic retcon of Jewish-Roman history. Not being mean here, just my views.

[Anonymous No.12262734]

>>12262720
Mohammad wasn’t a bedouin. He was an adnani, which means he was actually an Assyrian who migrated to southwest.

[Anonymous No.12262773]

>>12260145

[Anonymous No.12263187]

>>12261623
The are many variants of the current Quran. And the oldest manuscripts don't have vowels or diacritical marks, and if you know anything about Arabic then you'll know that this means the possible readings are maybebin the hundreds of thousands if not millions.

[Anonymous No.12263233]

tfw zahiri hadith rejectionist

[Anonymous No.12263238]

>>12263233
So which one of the many variants of the Quran is the true one and how do you know?

[Anonymous No.12263249]

>>12263238
definitely not Ahmadiyya or whatever the Shi'a are doing and not what the cryptojew Saudis are propagating lmao

[Anonymous No.12263274]

http://www.quran-islam.org/home_(P1).html
have fun kids