On God's utility.

[Anonymous No.12252270]

Why the debate about God's existance never evolve towards something more usefull like if instead of trying to prove if God exist, we argue is God is an usefull concept to society.

I see over history, atheist people tend to have sub replacement levels, lack of morality, love for hedonism, lack of meaning in life and overall degeneracy.

In the end atheists countries always devolve and collapse.

God may be a social construct for all we care, but isn't most of human society also human constructs and they exist for a reason?

[Anonymous No.12252275]

thanks Jordan B. Peterson I just cleaned my room because of this post xd

[Anonymous No.12252279]

because if you believe the value of spirituality is synonymous with social utility, you've played right into the hands of the people you're arguing against

[Anonymous No.12252282]

>>12252279
define who I am argueing against?

religious fundamentalist or atheists?

[Anonymous No.12252291]

Whoa...holy....damn

[Anonymous No.12252296]

>>12252282
atheists

[Anonymous No.12252308]

>>12252296
I've never listen to atheists argue about God's utility.

care to enlight me?

[Anonymous No.12252317]

>>12252308
well the idea is God only exists insofar as that existence can be quantified, and social utility would be a part of that

[Anonymous No.12252326]

>>12252270
Religion is trivially useful to society; that’s why religious societies have survived and reproduced and become so dominant (look at the global Pew figures, atheism is a blip that’s shrinking even in the West). The only interesting question of religion is its truth.

[Anonymous No.12252329]

>>12252270
Who was it again that said God isn't "useful" or "necessary" so that man can enter into a more meaningful relationship with him - not one of dependency, but one of love?

Religion never countered lack of morality or lack of meaning in life. We all live in atheist countries: France is the best example of an explicitly secular country - it hasn't devolved or collapsed as far as I know. "God as a social construct", however, has been devolving and collapsing these days.

[Anonymous No.12252330]

>>12252317
I don't follow why social utility comes from it's existance.

All human languages to me sound like random noises, this doesn't mean that they lack a social utility, even if for me arabic and other indigenous languages are noise.

>>12252326
I don think religious serves biological needs of humans, and it may come down to the spiritual realm organic being have.

[Anonymous No.12252334]

>>12252329
France is at sub replacement levels, and at the brink of economic collapse and suffering from massive inmigration from the thirld world.

europe isn't a good example.

[Anonymous No.12252359]

>>12252270
>Why the debate about God's existance never evolve towards something more usefull like if instead of trying to prove if God exist, we argue is God is an usefull concept to society.
Because recognizing God's existence reveals God's utility.

[Anonymous No.12252364]

>>12252359
art and math are imaginary things, yet they do have social utility.

[Anonymous No.12252373]

>>12252364
The existence of God is not in debate.

[Anonymous No.12252376]

>>12252373
why should the God's existance be relevant to discuss if God as a concept is usefull?

[Anonymous No.12252450]

>>12252364
>art and math are imaginary things
define imaginary. it sounds like you are banking on the ambiguity of that term

[Anonymous No.12252456]

>>12252450
things that are not real outside a human interpretation that is not shared by all humans.

like modern art where a dot in a canvas is art.
or atonal music.

[Anonymous No.12252467]

>>12252376
placebo effects can coexist with the subject's awareness of the placebo. God is the ultimate placebo--his existence, being unprovable and undisprovable, does not seriously affect the believer's faith or hope, as belief is always a leap in the face of reason

[Anonymous No.12252478]

>>12252467
something being a placebo doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on the consumer.

there's also placebos that happens to have a considerable positive effect on their believers, like nofap.

[Anonymous No.12252494]

>>12252478
>something being a placebo doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on the consumer
that's exactly what i said

[Anonymous No.12252502]

>>12252270
I don't believe in God and I'm not a hedonist. Most reject God because they view it as "mean sky man say no fun time!, that no fair so no guy in the sky"

[Anonymous No.12252504]

>>12252494
yeah, I'm trying to say that we could discuss if God even if he wasn't real, is not a positive force (beyond shit like ISIS) to a society in the end.

Of course I am talking about christianity.

[Anonymous No.12252507]

>>12252456
why do you say "math and art" but then limit your examples to "avant-garde art?" seems disingenuous. by the way, chimpanzees can count--doesn't that mean math exists outside a human interpretation?

[Anonymous No.12252519]

>>12252507
look up the debates on /sci/ about wildburger, arithmetic is found on nature, but most of the most advanced math is clearly a social construct.

[Anonymous No.12252524]

>>12252502
you're straw manning. i'd argue that most westerner non-believers reject god because they simply have no need for belief, as all its benefits (hope, meaning, community) can be found elsewhere

[Anonymous No.12252528]

>>12252524
>life meaning can be found in capitalism materialism and hedonism
>hundred of thousands of westerners commit suicide every year

[Anonymous No.12252541]

>>12252528
now you're being reductionist

[Anonymous No.12252542]

>>12252524
>hope, meaning, community
>west

[Anonymous No.12252574]

>>12252542
did you know that if you leave your basement there's an entire, heterogenous world outside?

[Anonymous No.12252682]

>>12252270
Because theology is the actual substance? You can't understand the "usefulness" of something without clearly defining what "it" is. If you can't say what God is and are relying on what people claim about their feelings and everyone's sidestepping giving any clear exposition maybe it isn't the cause but just an effect, just some sort of epiphenomenon, maybe people are all just misunderstanding each other. There's probably more modern neuropharmacological methods to induce what you want everyone to do which the state could just directly administer in water.

[Anonymous No.12252812]

>>12252574
>entire, heterogenous world outside

I would like to believe this but I just see a rat race directed toward the pursuit of meaningless goods. Culture is also dead, the community has been dismounted. Is there any meaning remaining in modern west that was precisely built on the progressive destruction of the big narratives? The result is a bare earth, a mere rock that exists to be devoured until it dissapear. I would like to receive an answer because I can't honestly see myself living on an aparment, working on a cubicle and talking about some nigger rapper until death.

[Anonymous No.12252840]

>>12252270
I actually agree with OP. Religion/spirituality is apodictic. That is to say, without it we take philosophy to its most logical conclusion; the complete denial of all absolute values and commendation of stark opportunism. It’s not that “we need to preserve it because bad things will happen if we don’t.” It’s that it is going to preserve itself, and has, because a world without it is incredibly terrifying. This is what Socrates did. He forced us to take a step back.

[Anonymous No.12253389]

>>12252334
>people actually believe Europe is at the brink of collapse

Immigration stemming from wars caused in great part by religion, really makes you think huh

[Anonymous No.12253405]

>>12253389
>let's ignore ISIS is backed by the CIA and the clinton fundation

[Anonymous No.12253423]

>>12252270
dumb frogposter

[Anonymous No.12253428]

>>12253405
Sponsoring something is not the same as starting it. The Middle East has been wrecked by religious conflicts since before the birth of Muhammad (PBUH), and though I don't doubt that you have conspiracy theories explaining this as well, it's a fact that religion has never helped stop conflict, rather engendering it.

[Anonymous No.12253449]

>>12253428
and yet such societies have stronger social cohesion, better morality values, bigger sense of comunity.

the west doesn't have a purpose in life right now and therefore are comiting cultural suicide.

What can u expect from countries where a baby life has not value?

[Anonymous No.12253478]

>>12252270
>country
>collapse
>The body is the collective will of the cell!!!!

[Anonymous No.12253548]

>>12252270
>In the end atheists countries always devolve and collapse.
Wrong. Atheist China is about to take over the world.

[Anonymous No.12253653]

>>12253449
Go outside and talk to people instead of copying your hot takes on society from "intellectual" demagogues with political intentions

[Anonymous No.12253666]

>>12253548
>Atheist China
They're not really atheist in the sense you mean.
And they are not the most moral country

[Anonymous No.12253667]

>>12253653
>dude lower birthrates, cultural decline, morality collapse, inmorality, depression epidemic (thing that doesn't exist outside the west), empty materialism, collapse of the family unit, economic decline, demographics, are just memes
>just leave the internet bro.
>huh huh, the west is superior

[Anonymous No.12253674]

>>12252524
Not really, they normally devolve into hedonism and degeneration.

[Anonymous No.12253697]

>>12252524
>man in the sky dosen't let me have buttfuck with my friends,therefore no man in the sky.

[Anonymous No.12253719]

>>12253666
I'm saying that OP has a rather narrow conception of atheism. I'm not trying to set up China as some sort of role model. I'm merely providing a counterexample to OP's rectally derived claim.

[Anonymous No.12253739]

>>12253719
>materialism is good
>spirituality is bad
why most atheist think that consumerism is the end goal of life?

[Anonymous No.12253780]

>>12252467
That’s easy for you to say when you don’t believe in God

[Anonymous No.12253787]

>>12253739
Maybe because you've mostly talked to kids? Atheism doesn't exclude spirituality. If your problem is with materialism, then address it directly.

[Anonymous No.12253793]

>>12253787
how can u have spirituality without a belief in after dead and soul?

[Anonymous No.12253939]

>>12253793
start with the greeks™

[Anonymous No.12253962]

>>12252502
>Most reject God because they view it as "mean sky man say no fun time!, that no fair so no guy in the sky"
so most people, yourself included, are retarded?

[Anonymous No.12253970]

>>12253653
>Go outside and talk to people