What's the problem with Homer, and the White Canon more generally?

[Anonymous No.12221170]

When I was a little girl, I remember picking up my father's Harvard Classics edition of the Iliad. I remember never wanting to read after reading what the men did with Briseus. Western (white) canon books make books seem alienating to women and marginialised groups. I want each of you to count how many marginalised identities you have represented on your shelf. I ask my students to do this each time I teach English 105 at my community college. If less than half of your shelf is a white man, do you really stand for diversity and inclusion?

[Anonymous No.12221182]

I know it's bait, but isn't demanding that non-literate cultures be equally representative within literature itself an act of alienation and occidental supremacy? "do you have enough white people performing this Zulu dance?" is an equally absurd question.

[Anonymous No.12221185]

I'm sure constructive debate will follow this 3/10 bait. The only reason it's more than 1/10 bait is the length

[Anonymous No.12221193]

>>12221182
>>12221185
ypipo ysplaining for me

[Anonymous No.12221209]

>>12221170
>having anything but 'white male' books on your shelf

must be bait

[Anonymous No.12221211]

>>12221170
I agree, OP

my little sister tried to read the Odyssey and she became so discouraged with it that she couldn't even finish it. She asked why all of the women were just objects or subplots for the men and had to do everything that the men told them to. I tried to explain to her that that's how it was back then, that men were really bad and bigoted but she didn't seem all that reassured. She said she'd rather read something that didn't make her feel like a secondary sex and could actually show her something useful about life, not just a masculinity power trip fantasy novel. I couldn't blame her.

tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by and The Odyssey and Homer and Western literature in general doesn't provide them that

It's just that now that more women have been allowed to be in positions of authority in academia and literature that we are beginning to see challenges to works like those of Homer to see if they actually have any enduring merit that appeals to all races, sexes, and genders rather than just one: white males. (spoiler: most don't)

thankfully my little sister continued to pursue her interest in literature (with a bit of guidance from me) and she has come to adore Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Jhumpa Lahiri, Virginia Woolf, and Kathryn Stripling Byer among others

[Anonymous No.12221222]

>>12221211
>see challenges to works like those of Homer to see if they actually have any enduring merit that appeals to all races, sexes, and genders
why should they ?

[Anonymous No.12221226]

>>12221222
Literature is far from the stuffy ivory towers, the public needs works that instruct AND entertain

[Anonymous No.12221240]

>>12221170
>do you really stand for diversity and inclusion?
Does it matter?

Also post your feet please

[Anonymous No.12221248]

>>12221211
>Jhumpa Lahiri
Does your sister post on reddit?

[Anonymous No.12221255]

what gratification could people possibly get for posting this pasta constantly?

[Anonymous No.12221264]

>>12221211
This is pasta.

[Anonymous No.12221285]

>>12221182
This guy is exactly right. Why dp u think blacks were slaves in the first place? Not because of theit color, but because their culture was stagnant and took longer to evolve than the white mans culture did. Diversity is cool, but conquest and evolution of man is our inherent goal as living creatures. So fuck them if they cant keep up.

[Anonymous No.12221293]

>>12221170
tits or gtfo

[Anonymous No.12221313]

>>12221170
There's more diversity inside different groups than between other groups.

[Anonymous No.12221317]

>>12221285
Not all "the blacks" were slaves though. And not all slaves were blacks either, come to think of it. A coin is a three dimensional object.

[Anonymous No.12221319]

>>12221170
Hi! Few things to start off with =]
1. Yes I replied to you because you're a female poster, 'tis an awesome thing to see!
2. I'm Jesse.
3. Don't be intimidated, but I'm not a stereotypical guy. If anything, I'll be the one in the kitchen =D.

[Anonymous No.12221339]

>>12221317
Not all birds can fly and some fishes can actually fly. What's your point ?

[Anonymous No.12221343]

Nobody remembers the Irish slaves and look how well they did for themselves.

[Anonymous No.12221363]

>>12221339
>What's your point ?
don't into gross generalisations, obviously

[Anonymous No.12221422]

>>12221363
Can birds fly ?

[Anonymous No.12221443]

>>12221170

bad bait. Also, I have chosen not to believe people with these view actually exist. If they do, they are a minority. But as most minorities with schizoid traits, they are overrepresented on youtube. Much like transgenders, they cover a very little percentage of the population and are over represented because of their narcissistic tendencies and because the media like us to engage with imaginary wars (are you PRO or AGAINST trans? are you PRO or AGAINST political correctness? IRON MAN or CAPTAIN AMERICA?). My position at the moment is I do not care: most people are actually normal. When I see these kind of people I am sad in the same way in which looking at a person with down syndrome makes me sad: I am sorry that they have such an impairing condition, and at the same time glad that most humans are not like them.

[Anonymous No.12221448]

The idea that white or Western culture is even a thing is laughable. Either you're a troll or incredibly dumb

[Anonymous No.12221464]

>>12221209
>tfw fell for the meme and bought some gook books

[Anonymous No.12221595]

>>12221448
>Western culture isn't a thing

I hope you die. There is a clear and demonstrative transmission of culture from the Greeks to the Anglo-German cultures of the West up until at least the 1940's. To believe otherwise is sheer delusion.

Fuck you faggot. I hate you so much. Millions of European men did not die for this.

[Anonymous No.12221608]

>>12221170
Tits or gtfo

[Anonymous No.12221877]

>>12221422
Most can.

[Anonymous No.12221916]

>>12221170
>Homer
>white

[Anonymous No.12221921]

>>12221595
*cringe*

[Anonymous No.12221936]

>>12221170
>>Prepare for trouble!
>>And make it Double!
>>Sage! Reported!
>>team anon clicks at the speed of light!
>>afk now or prepare to fight!

>>REEEEEEE!
>>That's right!

[Anonymous No.12221943]

>>12221595
WE WUZZ GREEKS
Pathetic desu

[Anonymous No.12222044]

>>12221595
>There is a clear and demonstrative transmission of culture from the Greeks to the Anglo-German cultures of the West up until at least the 1940's. To believe otherwise is sheer delusion.
You mean having a semitic religion, being inspired by arab mathematics and learning to make gunpowder from the chinese ? Culture is a continuum, not the neatly boxed concept you wish it were. Greece culture is closer to that of Turkey than Scottland. Despite sharing a border, Finland and Sweden don't share a language familly. Same for Hungary and its neighbours. There used to be Greek Buddhists ruling in Afghanistan. The list goes on. Even among countries, culture isn't homogenous, why would it be across the "western" world.
The fact that the idea of western culture is so prevalent in America should'nt be surprising to anyone. The different European cultures here have come to be so intermined as to be indistinguishable. Universalism is the pet peeve of the culturaly diverse. You are asking for the amalgamation and the dilution of all European cultures, yet you have the hypocrisy to say that you fight against those that ask the some thing of all cultures. Such feelings are only reinforced by the hegemonic tendencies of america. The western wolrd is not a useful cultural delimitation, it is a relic of the cold war, an ensemble of countries forming the "western world" in oposition to the "eastern wolrd", a disparate congregation of cultures, enlarged by the fall of the wall. By this point you might as well include Japan. In way you already do, seeing as how japanophilic 4chan's alright movements are. When race mixing in america is finally over, people like you will ask of all the wolrd culutre to unite, in the same way you are doing right now. Some americans are already doing that, but for some reasons you don't seem to like them very much. You are a fool.

>Millions of European men did not die for this.
No one ever died for "western culture". People died for religion, ideology and nations, but no one ever died for "western culture" because such a thing is an invention, a recent one at that. You live in a illusion. You are doubly blind : on a macroscopic scale you fail to realise that globalisation has brought all cultures of the world closer than ever, and on the microscopic scale you faill to see that all cultures are unique and do not fit in your boxes. You are like the black intelectual defending Pan-Africanism from his apartement in Brooklyn. Delusional and estranged from reality. End yourself.

[Anonymous No.12222083]

>>12221185
Best post.

[Anonymous No.12222137]

>>12221211
>tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by

[Anonymous No.12222329]

>>12222044
Good, educative post.

[Anonymous No.12222342]

>>12221226
the public has that, its just not of any literary value

[Anonymous No.12222358]

>>12221211
Everyone here, who hate women either ironically or unironically (I honestly can no longer tell at this point), thinks you are baiting with this post. But I genuinely feel very saddened by the manner of treatment women have been subjected to for thousands of years, and I am glad your little sister could find books which she related to.

It is not that the works of the canon which depict women as a second-class are bad, merely that, for whatever greatness they contain, they were never up-to-par in all their aspects, and that today's readers, especially women, will not find the fullest connection to them as a result. It's not about pushing out old works of quality in favor of newer ones of less stature, but simply acknowledging the flaws with the canon of past, and offering options to girls that help remedy this fact. Instead of simply expecting them to read the same, exalted works as if there were no issues found in it.

[Anonymous No.12222362]

>>12221916
grey eyed athena,white armed hera,strawberry blond achilles,menelaus red hair.......

[Anonymous No.12222376]

>>12222362
Huh, Turks really are white after all

[Anonymous No.12222384]

>>12222358
the Greenland saga portrays Freydis, daughter of Erik,as a strong woman

[Anonymous No.12222419]

>>12222384
the Greenland sagas aren't canon

[Anonymous No.12222440]

>>12222419
>acknowledging the flaws with the canon of past, and offering options to girls that help remedy this fact.

[Anonymous No.12222479]

>>12221170
>Western (white) canon books make books seem alienating to women and marginialised groups.
Would she like the Maharabata and Sima Qian?

[Anonymous No.12222486]

>>12222440
I didn't read any of what you wrote I just wanted to be annoying, carry on

[Anonymous No.12222510]

>>12221211
Lol your sister sucks at reading, Penelope, Circe, Calypso are not just tools and maybe if she tried reading deeper into the Iliad then she would learn that there are dozens of random ass female characters who could practically have had their own story written by homer because they all went off and had some adventures too

How about you tell your sister to learn to appreciate the fact that people like Penelope were born into a shitty situation where she is looked at like something to be claimed and then learn to admire and be inspired by her virtue and strength and wit that she uses to remain faithful to her husband. She just doesn't have a clue what it really means to be a strong woman I mean damn pick up a Bible sometime

[Anonymous No.12222520]

>>12222510
Oops I forgot athena that bitch

[Anonymous No.12222537]

>>12222479
>>Western (white) canon books make books seem alienating to women and marginialised groups.
>sima quian
>still male

[Anonymous No.12222550]

>Reading to identify yourself with the work


YIKES YIPES JEEZ

[Anonymous No.12222585]

>>12221211
>tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by, such as Milk and Honey and The Bell Jar.

The state of wamyn - complaining about accurate portrayal.

[Anonymous No.12222611]

>>12221170
I know this is definitely bait, but still. I hate how progressives nowadays value the viewpoint more than the work itself. Like if something is written by a black lesbian woman or whatever, it doesn't even matter how good the writing is or how well the ideas are explored, it necessarily has merit for its viewpoint. Modern progressives are sluts for marginalized perspectives, but barely give a damn about what the message is, only that they feel it's their duty to include it in their reading (and force it on others). But there's a reason that probably 80% of what has been worth reading throughout history has been written by white men. Where is the arab/muslim Tolstoy? Who is the African Shakespeare? Etc

[Anonymous No.12222662]

>>12221211
I think that there is a misunderstanding about the worth of the canon and its author—I think this is a combination of meme magic and shitty interpretation.

Now, I am cognizant of the potential alienation that people experience when reading classical works—it isn't just marginalized groups who rightly feel alienated by Homer (for example)—I, a white male, have experienced similar alienation when reading the works of women, African-Americans, and even Homer. This alienation that one feels is natural, it's a natural consequence of discordant horizons. Even Plato finds the characters in Homer to be reprehensible—Achilles is a petulant child, Agamemnon a tyrant, Odysseus no more than trickster and a conman, and the gods are even worse showcasing every human vice. So, yes, one's alienation from these works is natural and even Plato, who was living in a very similar, albeit not identical, cultural milieu. (I don't know how one couldn't be uncomfortable with Hera constantly being called a "bitch")

But the value of these classical works is two fold: their influence and their inherent value. I think that on /lit/ and, unfortunately, among the alt-right the former is pushed as the reason for reading, but without any explanation of what that influence entails. For many people, it might seem that you only read Homer because he influenced everything that came after him, in which case we should all be patiently reading the Saga of Grug the Troglodyte. The significance and influence of these works is a result of their quality—the classics are serious works of literature dealing with the human condition and with transcendentals. And the importance of this influence is more than just for successive authors, it's upon the modern person. Regardless of whatever one thinks of it, someone born in the West will never be able to escape the influence of Homer or the Bible, and any attempts to do so are futile if not self-destructive. For example: the two fates that Achilles must choose from is a dilemma that most people face at one point in their life—shall I accept normalcy or shall I dare to be great. Again, whether that is universal to all humans or merely a Western trait, I don't know and it doesn't even matter: if you're posting on this English-language literature board, you were likely born in the Occident.

Furthermore, I would argue that these works are great in themselves; I think that there are universal human concerns—love, death, conflict, beauty, ethics, etc.—and I think the classical/canonical works deal with them from a worthwhile perspective. I think that this perspective is worth the difficultly presented by the work's foreignness.

[Anonymous No.12222686]

>>12222662
But anyway, despite Socrates' admonition, people still say "ignorance is bliss" and I can appreciate how people sometimes just want to read a fun book—or how a younger person might not be equipped with the interpretive tools to handle a serious and very foreign work. So I wouldn't suggest that everyone must read one of these works, but I think the value of reading these works is second-to-none.
>>12221211
I think this anon took the right first step: introduce them to more approachable literature. But I still think that the foreignness, the alienation, experienced by one reading Homer is worth overcoming—someone whose work has been called great for three thousand years cannot be dismissed with the wave of a hand.

[Anonymous No.12223101]

>>12222611
>Modern progressives are sluts for marginalized perspectives

So are Tolstoy and Shakespeare