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/lit/ - Literature

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12099809 No.12099809 [Reply] [Original]

Is Tyler an Übermensch?

>> No.12099816

>>12099809
are these comics supposed to make fun of christians?

>> No.12099822

Most people will try to deny it, but it really is the case that if there is no god then there can be no morals.
>B-but I read a philosophy book and it explained this ethical system...!
So? I just won't obey it. It doesn't matter what you can philosophically justify because I can simply ignore it and do what I want anyway. There will be no accountability outside of myself, so I'll do as I please no matter what kind of "proof" you present.
>B-but then you'll get punished by other people...!
In other words there isn't morality, just control through physical violence which has no necessary connection with whether what is being punished is "right" or "wrong." And if I don't get caught? I guess it's perfectly fine then.

>> No.12099827

>>12099822
Why do morals rely on accountability? If there are morals, things are good or bad regardless of reward and punishment. There's little accountability in Christianity anyway, a mass murderer atheist could convert on his deathbed and go to heaven.

>> No.12099829

absolutely not.
try Buddhism.

>> No.12099831

>>12099822
>morals are a product of our biological and cultural programming
really kicking in open doors here, laddie

>> No.12099833

>>12099827
>Why do morals rely on accountability? If there are morals, things are good or bad regardless of reward and punishment.
Because of the relationship between morality and action.
>There's little accountability in Christianity anyway, a mass murderer atheist could convert on his deathbed and go to heaven.
God was murdered in the murderer's place.

>> No.12099834

>>12099822
You haven't actually showed that there can't be any morals without a god, your syllogism has several missing steps.
Your reasoning is as bad as saying "well if I write 2+2=5 and nobody corrects it, I guess it's perfectly fine then". No, it isn't, it's still wrong.

>> No.12099838

>>12099834
>No, it isn't, it's still wrong.
And it doesn't matter at all and I'll just keep making it 5.

>> No.12099841

>>12099827
>a mass murderer atheist could convert on his deathbed and go to heaven.
No Protestant """""""theology"""""""", please.

>> No.12099843

>>12099841
Is there something in Catholicism which forbids someone from repenting and converting on their deathbed? I don't think there is.

>> No.12099846

>>12099843
That doesn't mean the "win" Heaven.

>> No.12099851

>>12099846
If he dies in a state of grace then he will go to heaven. Even if he goes to purgatory that means he will go to heaven. You're losing your own Christianity in your misguided anti-Protestantism. Is there some reason that internet Catholics think that they need to act like this?

>> No.12099857

>>12099822
don't let these sniveling cowards tell you otherwise, you are 100% correct. the only thing left to do is piss on the corpse of their pathetic little word games and coping mechanisms that you have already violently eviscerated.
I CLOSE MY EYES AND SEIZE IT

>> No.12099860

>>12099851
I'm Orthodox, I don't believe in the Purgatory, I believe the bodies will resurrect and face Judgment.

>> No.12099861

>>12099822
>if there is no god then there can be no morals.
>So? I just won't obey it.

So there's no God then. Good.

>> No.12099866

>>12099860
If he repents and confesses his sins, is baptized, etc. he is not going to go to hell. It doesn't matter what he did.

>> No.12099886

>>12099833
>Because of the relationship between morality and action.
Explain

>> No.12099887

>>12099866
Not necessarily.

>> No.12099891

>>12099887
didn't jesus die for his sins?

>> No.12099894

>>12099887
>>12099891
I think this is one of those "We Orthodox aren't like you Western Christians so I'm going to disagree with whatever you say" things.

>> No.12099901
File: 96 KB, 700x673, aerial-toll-house.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12099901

>>12099891
Ah, but when he dies his soul has to ascend through the Aerial Toll Houses to be accosted by demons, who will try to find any sin that he committed in his life that he did not confess to a Priest. If he has a Saint on his side then they can give him some of their merit to cover for his own sins, otherwise the demons might drag him to Hell!

>> No.12099915

>>12099891
That means we have hope in the Resurrection, not that every single sin is cleansed just believing. To put an analogy Christ, through His Death, gave us a ladder and constantly encourages us to climb, at the end is Theosis.
>Inb4 you "win" Salvation.
We cannot be saved by our ourselves actions since we cannot, on our own, put the ladder, we work in a sinergy with God.

>> No.12099920

>>12099915
If we are talking about a deathbed conversion then all of his sins would be cleanses when he receives baptism.

>> No.12099924

>>12099838
But that's not an argument against the existence of morality or math.

>> No.12099938

>>12099915
We didn't say 'just believing', if someone has taken all the sacraments, sincerely repented their sons and has faith, they're going to heaven. If you're saying their past actions preclude salvation, then you've just shat on God's forgiveness.

>> No.12099960

>>12099901
sounds made up

>> No.12099964

>>12099834
You jusy violated the atheist commandments of logical fallacies. False equivalence.

>> No.12099975

>>12099809
I want hentai of his mom

>> No.12099982

>>12099960
Aerial Toll Houses are an ancient and venerable Orthodox doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_toll_house
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses

>> No.12100016

>>12099982
one of the twenty toll houses is magic, what does that mean?

>> No.12100022

>>12100016
Probably whether you tried to do any magic: spells, attempting to communicate with the dead, etc. Lots of people would be guilty of attempted necromancy even today.

>> No.12100030

>>12100022
isn't prayer a way to communicate with the dead?

>> No.12100047

>>12100030
This is a common argument by Protestants against the Catholic and Orthodox practice of prayer to the saints. I don't really have a position on this so I'll let someone else defend it if they want to. But the answer is going to depend on your theological perspective.

>> No.12100051

>>12099964
It's not a false equivalence, it's a perfectly fine equivalence. He says morality isn't real if there isn't a judge that can punish you if you do wrong. That's as stupid as saying math isn't real if there isn't some mathematicians that can punish you/correct you if you do wrong.

>> No.12100060

>>12100051
It can be "real" in the sense that it's a mental proposition in your head. And I can ignore it without consequences. So it can be "real" all you want but it won't matter. That's what >>12099822 was saying:
>There will be no accountability outside of myself, so I'll do as I please no matter what kind of "proof" you present.

>> No.12100064

>>12099834
>Being so much of a brainlet that you think math is comparable to philosophy

>> No.12100067

>>12100051
>He says morality isn't real if there isn't a judge that can punish you if you do wrong.
No he isn't. God is necessary for morality even if he never punished anyone

>> No.12100070

>>12099809
It seems like you didn't talk about a specific MUH BOOK, philosophy goes on MUH /HIS/

MODS
MOOOOOOOOOOOOODS

>> No.12100074

>>12099834
Talking in philosophical terms it would be wrong to you and right to him, proving his viewpoint even more lol.

>> No.12100075

>>12100060
>It can be "real" in the sense that it's a mental proposition in your head.
No, it can be real in the sense that statement about morality are true or false depending on their correspondence with either natural or non-natural facts depending on the metaethical theory you believe in. You're the one who says it won't matter unless there's some kind of tri-omni being, I disagree with it, the same way I disagree with the fact that not knowing what 2+2 is, is still going to matter even if nobody corrects you.
>>12100067
No he isn't and more importantly that's not the argument the person in question was originally running.
>>12100064
>not having arguments
>not understanding the myriad of philosophers who subscribe to ethical theories where numbers and moral facts are the same kind of object

>> No.12100083

>>12100074
No, it's wouldn't because ethical subjectivism is wrong.

>> No.12100085

>>12100075
>No, it can be real in the sense that statement about morality are true or false depending on their correspondence with either natural or non-natural facts depending on the metaethical theory you believe in. You're the one who says it won't matter unless there's some kind of tri-omni being, I disagree with it, the same way I disagree with the fact that not knowing what 2+2 is, is still going to matter even if nobody corrects you.
No, it really won't matter. Anyone can just do whatever they want. You're divorcing morality from human action, which is what morality is about. You're basically saying, "Well it's on paper somewhere." Great, but that doesn't matter.

>> No.12100089

>>12100075
>depending on the metaethical theory you believe in
>No he isn't
Clearly he is, if morality depends on your opinion it isn't morality, it's your opinion.

>> No.12100092

>>12100085
And again, same argument about math and yet it looks stupid.
I'm not divorcing morality from human action, I'm divorcing morality from infantile ideas about judges.

>> No.12100098

>>12100089
No, morality doesn't depend on anyone's opinion. THat's the point of moral realism.

>> No.12100101

>>12100098
>morality doesn't depend on anyone's opinion
So it can only come from God. Qed

>> No.12100118

>>12100101
No, it doesn't follow at all. The fact that it doesn't depends from anyone's opinion doesn't mean it can only come from God. The shape of the earth doesn't depend on anyone's opinion, can that too only come from God?

>> No.12100120

>>12100092
>And again, same argument about math and yet it looks stupid.
Wisdom distinguishes things that differ.

>> No.12100122

>>12100118
>Implying God did not create the universe

>> No.12100131

>>12100118
Without God you can pick and choose your moral system like a good consumer. Only God can give you the correct morality, like the correct shape of the earth is the shape God made it.

>> No.12100136

>>12100092
Your whole argument is anybody other than me is wrong. You're comparing your rules on morality to that of all encompassing mathematics. You seem to forget that in mathematics it is to understand something already theoretically concrete, and in morality it is to build something concrete from nothing. You are a pretentious brainlet who can't deconstruct. End your life.

>> No.12100139

>>12100136
Mathematics is used to*

>> No.12100141

>>12099822
Having this low an IQ must be hell

>> No.12100142

>>12100136
>morality it is to build something concrete from nothing
says you

>> No.12100144

>>12100141
Damn, now I'm going to follow your made-up ethical system so that I won't be stupid.

>> No.12100146

>>12100136
>Your whole argument is anybody other than me is wrong
No, it's not.
>and in morality it is to build something concrete from nothing.
Says you.
>You are a pretentious brainlet
Amazing how you're the one who believes in basic bitch moral theories like moral subjectivism. And I'm the one who believes what philosophers who study this subject actually believe.

>> No.12100151

>>12100144
You already follow a made up system by a god you can't be certain is real

>> No.12100161
File: 482 KB, 387x368, sbooky.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12100161

>>12099822
spooky
>christian quasi-spook fallacy

>> No.12100162

Honestly, the comic hits the right note. People who don't believe in God but still believe morals exist usually place their faith in humanity to provide them with a proper ethical code. The problem is that humans are inherently imperfect, no matter how hard we try we can never come up with the right set of ideas to govern humanity.
Therefore we cannot depend upon humans to provide us with a moral code. The only proper guide for us humans has to come from something higher and something perfect, which is God.

>> No.12100166

>>12099822
So? It's not as much of a problem if you have empathy and follow the golden rule.

>> No.12100171

>>12100162
both morals and gods are man-made spooks, just believe in whatever makes you sleep at night

>> No.12100176
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12100176

>>12100151
Are you lost, Snoo?

>> No.12100178
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12100178

If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”? All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings.

>> No.12100185

>>12100176 -> >>12100141

>> No.12100208

>>12099809
the only thing that decide morals is self preservation and empathy. you dont like bad things happening out of self preservation.
you dont like bad things happening to other people out of empathy. discussion around morals will always be a discussion about the balance between this self preservation and empathy.
most religions choose a balance and fix it in place, saying that some divine force decided them.
tyler is saying that if there is no divine force to fix it in place, this balance can be shifted all the way to in favor of self preservation, completely ignoring empathy.
if tyler has empathy and ignores it for his own gain, he will get more gain, but feel generally pretty shit.
if tyler literally does not have a shred of empathy, he'd be a pretty scary psychopath and i'd have genuine trouble considering him fully human.

as for the ubermensch question, you can literally just go to the wikipedia for ubermensch and find you answer:
>In order to avoid a relapse into Platonic idealism or asceticism, the creation of these new values cannot be motivated by the same instincts that gave birth to those tables of values. Instead, they must be motivated by a love of this world and of life.
>Whereas Nietzsche diagnosed the Christian value system as a reaction against life and hence destructive in a sense, the new values which the Übermensch will be responsible for will be life-affirming and creative
which seem to me to be pretty incompatible with 100% self gain. they mention a love of existence and life in general, not just for the one ubermensch themselves

>> No.12100240

>>12099809
>>12099822

What determines what you please?

>> No.12100252

Also, extraverted Soteriology is moronic, practically /r/nofap.

>> No.12100399

>>12100240
My non-reified self.

>> No.12100413

>>12100166
is the golden rule related to golden showers

>> No.12100721

Questioning your actions based on religious law is 640x480 resolution thinking. If you want to live life in 1080p realize that morality is circumstantial.

>> No.12100912

>>12099822
There is emotional feedback a person gets from his action onto outside world. If there is none then hes deviant.

>> No.12100946

>>12099809
Lmao this reminds me of Billy the heretic

>> No.12100974

>>12099841
>non-protestant christianity
>transubstantiation
Haha good one anon

>> No.12100982

>>12099822
Without a God you can easily still have morals. Morals and God aren't mutually exclusive. But I understand what you're saying that it would be possible to not have morals under no god.

>> No.12100987

Moral skepticism and nihilism are for teenager mind, made by teenager mind equivalent. It's not about right or truth as rather in act of rebelion against current state or observed norm. Skepticism, taken outside closed instances and applied to extremes becomes self denying as in it is supposed to function while being skeptical of itself. That either dismisses it or leaves it as utter chaos. Nihilism on the other hand denies truth as in such, or atleast perception of it. Both outlooks are impotent of construction if taken sincerely, it seems they are rather to be taken as tools to deconstruct or attack philosophical systems.
That said, morality, like emotions or needs are part of human experience. Their nature is in fact artificial, but guess what, any authority capable to enforce it is validation enough. Be it self reflection or police batons. You can differentiate, call it ethics, morals, social constructs, traditions or sentiments, but dismissing it is as if dismissing of your own thumbs because they make no sense to you.

>> No.12101152

>>12099901
>>12099982
Why would one ever read genre fiction when there's orthodox christianity?

>> No.12101177
File: 58 KB, 453x238, 1469057401937.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12101177

>thread opens with Jack Chick
>everyone discusses Christianity
Man, you guys are way less fun than /tg/

>> No.12101188

>>12100987
>T. Sophomore

>> No.12101211

>>12099822
you conviently switched terms here. when God punishes you for sinning it's "accountability" but when humans punish you it's "control through physical violence", but if hell is on the table, God is controling you at the very least with the threat of that violence.
needing God in order to be moral is literal cuck reasoning. if you need the biggest most elaborate metaphysical threat in order to follow a moral code, that's gunna be a yikes from me.

>> No.12101725
File: 19 KB, 391x488, derek-jacobi-cadfael.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12101725

>>12101211
>this is your brain on protestantism

>> No.12101780

lmao spooks.