/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12093910]

Why was the Marx thread deleted?

Why aren't you a Marxist, /lit/?

[Anonymous No.12093919]

>>12093910
Marx was wrong. Spengler was right.

[Anonymous No.12093927]

The means of production were never realized. Automation and Marxism are inevitable

[Anonymous No.12093929]

>>12093910
Because I'm not a materialist.

[Anonymous No.12093942]

>>12093910
>man like the proletariat are being exploited by the business owners
>is born into the German middle class
>literally spends his whole life not working living off the money of his best friend who inherited dad's money.

[Anonymous No.12093962]

>>12093910
rip
>>/lit/thread/12092667
for good measure I suggest you all to read the Paris Manuscripts, and Wage Labour and Capital.

[Anonymous No.12093981]

les ismes sont tous nuls

[Anonymous No.12093983]

I'm reposting this here because mods are fags, /his/ is a terrible board to talk about anything history or humanities related on, and I'm saying this as a history major.

Obviously communism will happen when the uneducated brown masses rise up against their white oppressors, which is inevitable due to birth rates. Unfortunately the future will look more like Idiocracy than the paradise marxists jerk off over.

Side note: I never got why leftists say we need to bring third world immigrants to our countries and help them. Why can't we go to their countries and help them where the problems are, first and foremost starting with family planning. Don't they fail to see how few job opportunities there are for the uneducated in the first world, and how we'll be having a harder time paying into social safety nets since the natives in the first world don't have kids anymore? I understand that we have the problem of multinational corporations not paying taxes, but its these same corporations which seem to be the biggest champions of third world migration to the first world.

[Anonymous No.12093990]

>>12093942
>being a wagecuck
I bet you signed the SWEAT pledge too

[Anonymous No.12093997]

The fuck? Why was it deleted? People are talking about Marx's ideas. Yes there are people who are just shitposting, but there were several people in that thread who had read Marx, explaining Marx.

Fucking hell.

[Anonymous No.12094003]

>>12093983
>its these same corporations which seem to be the biggest champions of third world migration to the first world.
Because the big corporations want extremely low wage workers that are easily susceptible to their shitty marketing and can accrue more debt.

[Anonymous No.12094005]

>>12093983
>Obviously communism will happen when the uneducated brown masses rise up against their white oppressors, which is inevitable due to birth rates. Unfortunately the future will look more like Idiocracy than the paradise marxists jerk off over.
browns are shit at communism, the only time it was ever viable was in the 20th century by whites

[Anonymous No.12094013]

>>12093983
I feel like humanities and philosophy belong on this board, since its heavily based on literature

/his/ can keep their anne frank threads and haplogroup shitposting

[Anonymous No.12094029]

>>12094005
But if you bring that up they start talking about how the US had it out for Chile and has it out now for Venezuela.
>>12094003
One would think they'd be aware of this, but they'd probably find a way to call this racist or some bullshit.
>>12094013
Same. Very rarely do I find a good history thread on /his/ that isn't some pop-history bullshit, but at least half the time it isn't terrible. However, when it comes to philosophy the board is total shit. Its a bunch of /pol/tards who saw Evola posted a shit ton and then think they're so deep because they read Devi and Serrano and think of Hitler as an incarnation of a Hindu god. It's all so tiresome.

[Anonymous No.12094037]

>>12094003
>>12094005
don't feed the bait. refugees are not proletariat.

[Anonymous No.12094048]

>>12094037
Please explain.

[Anonymous No.12094052]

>>12094048
they're fauna

[Anonymous No.12094060]

>>12094048
>One should avoid any simplistic romanticization of refugees. Some European Leftists claim that refugees are a nomadic proletariat which could act as the core of a new revolutionary movement in Europe – a claim that is deeply problematic. The proletariat is, for Marx, composed of exploited workers disciplined through work and creating wealth, and, while today’s precariat can count as a new form of proletariat, the paradox of refugees is that they are mostly seeking to become the proletariat. They are ‘nothing’, with no place within the social hierarchy of the country where they take refuge; but from here it is a big step to becoming a proletariat in the strict Marxian sense. So instead of celebrating refugees as nomadic proletarians, would it not be more appropriate to claim that they are
the more dynamic and ambitious part of their country’s population, those with a will to achieve, and that the true proletarians are rather those who remained and were left behind as strangers in their own country (with all the religious connotations: ‘leftovers’, those not taken to God in rapture).
from pic related

[Anonymous No.12094090]

>>12094060
First this isn't so much about refugees than it is about immigrants. I'm an American so my view on this may differ from that of a Euro. To me it seems like the future of work is hinged on technology more than standard blue collar jobs, mainly since we don't have many manufacturing jobs in the US. What's more is anytime I see any phyiscal labor being done in my day to day life its either house or road work, both of which don't fall under systems which I would think Marx wrote about(I haven't read him yet, but I have him on my list).

However as I keep saying these immigrants who work low skilled jobs here in the US tend to have 4+ kids per family, and most of these kids don't go to university or learn a higher skill set. They end up joining the military and become a different type of welfare queen, end up working dead end jobs in the service industry, or work these same municipal jobs that I mentioned in the lines above. In the US it seems there is a change as to what the proletariat is or will become, and that by continually funneling in more people who add more weight to the system but will have a more and more difficult time achieving what those who lived here before had achieved. It seems to me that part of the fault is on corporations selling out American citizens and moving shop in the name of profit, and the other part lies on the uneducated or naive who can't see that piling on more and more people to this mess can't be a good thing in the long term.

[Anonymous No.12094132]

>>12094090
Actually education rates for immigrants in American have skyrocketed in the last few decades. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/14/education-levels-of-u-s-immigrants-are-on-the-rise/ I live in """socialist"""" Canada where we take in huge numbers of immigrants every year (at least 3 times more per capita than the US) but most of that is economic immigration who are either well educated/wealthy. They happily integrate into the working class, and do not serve a serious challenge to the status quo in the slightest. I know there is a particular (excuse the term) narrative being sold in the US right now that immigration is the root of education/wealth disparity while the reality is that your inner cities are a massive industrial factory turning the poor into... well, the products of poverty. Your government is the essential neoliberal experiment, and thus the issue has never been which races/nationalites are on the outside (remember the Irish and Italians were once there too), in America it has always been an issue of class first and foremost.

[Anonymous No.12094184]

>>12094132
The Pew link shows that it's mostly Indians and Asians who are receiving more education, which aren't immigrant groups that many think of as having it rough. I know this is anecdotal, but when I was in uni up until last year most of the Hispanic and black kids were majoring in sociology and anthropology, while very few were in STEM or even more difficult humanities fields such as philosophy or economics. Meanwhile the Asians and Indians were almost always on engineering or pre-med tracks. To be honest your post more proves the point I'm trying to make in that the majority of immigrants we have here in the US that aren't from India or Asia aren't as educated and will continue to fall into this preexisting trap you mention. Also I believe this anon>>12094003
brought up another good point. These people serve as a means to continually give more and more money to the consumer media machine, brought to you by snapchat news and insta celebrities.

As for mentioning the Irish and the Italians, keep in mind that they were coming to the US when we had these industrialized jobs. Today we have nothing of the sort to offer these new immigrants from Latin America, and as a result the end up falling into the traps of poverty and low skilled jobs.

[Anonymous No.12094206]

>>12094184
>as a result the end up falling into the traps of poverty and low skilled jobs
same as aformentioned, the point is that the development is systemic, it has nothing to do with "the left", or immigration (regardless of nationality), the way the system was set up creates the lacuna by design. it's not a sign of the system failing, it's the sign of the system operating as normal. pointing at "the left" or "immigration" rather than the mode of production is simply ideology (false consiousness, as Marx would put it)

[Anonymous No.12094227]

I am an anarchist so basically the same thing. I hate these threads though because Americans will invade and shit up everything. Just like they do with other countries.

[Anonymous No.12094228]

>>12094206
I agree that it is systemic, but it seems to be exacerbated by people who have their own goals and ideals of playing savior to the oppressed. It would appear that by letting more people into the country as it stands today would put more stress on the system rather than allowing it to adjust to a new environment. If we are to let in more uneducated people we would need more jobs available to these large groups of people rather than have them continue to make the current situation worse.

It seems that one of us isn't grasping what the other is trying to get at, or both of us are failing in this regard.

[Anonymous No.12094253]

>>12094228
I understand what you are saying, trust me, you are not the only person saying it. But taking in 0.3% of your population in immigrants every year isn't killing your economy. recently America has been making around 200k jobs a month, which is more than enough to cover levels of immigration (not to mention those immigrants are better educated than ever before). it's an ideology you've been sold. if you stop trying so hard to follow which cup is hiding the ball, you might just see the game was rigged from the start.

[Anonymous No.12094264]

>>12094253
What would you say is the greatest problem we are facing then?

[Anonymous No.12094270]

>>12094264

Capitalism.

[Anonymous No.12094285]

>>12093983
>Side note: I never got why leftists say we need to bring third world immigrants to our countries and help them
I don't say this. Now granted I'm more alt-right than anything these days, but I still think of myself as a marxist. Don't mistake neoliberals, identity politics liberals/SJWs, and the mainstream media as the left. They're the ones all into this globalist multiculturalism. You see Belarus swarming in immigrants?

[Anonymous No.12094290]

>>12094264
>>12094264
Yeah, anon isn't me but he hit the nail on the head. Problem is Marx vastly underestimated how hard capitalism is to kill. It thrives on crisis and contradictions. I'm on the Zizek train, we need a whole new revolutionary theory here -- traditional violent revolution can never work, it will always concede to the system.

[Anonymous No.12094295]

>>12093910
Cause materialism is boring.
Also capitalism has won

[Anonymous No.12094304]

>>12093910
Dialectical materialism is wrong, the labor theory of value is wrong, marxists tend to subscribe to ethical frameworks that are wrong and they have idea how even mundane stuff would be organized under their proposed society.

[Anonymous No.12094329]

>>12093910
>Why aren't you a Marxist, /lit/?
Because I'm a Maoist.

[Anonymous No.12094336]

>>12093910
Because Marx's inner Jew prevented him from realizing that Man is innately tribalistic and doesn't want to toil away for some lazy other who he has no natural way to relate to.
Communism can only be achieved with a strong nation state, strong cultural identity and homogeneous demographic that ties the citizens together. Just look how the Scandinavian social democracies have fallen prey to liberal individualism and identity politics as soon as large numbers of alien ethnic elements were introduced.

>Globalism
>Socialism
Choose one

[Anonymous No.12094375]

>>12094336

>muhumanaychur

[Anonymous No.12094391]

>>12094253
Who gives a fuck about the economy? Stop following your ideology and realize that unlike what Marx believed, the economy is just a small aspect of the bigger whole. Like Marx, you should get this little Englishman out of your head.
The reason immmigration on this level is negative, is not "jobs", it's because their country will be transformed into a 3rd world shithole. What makes a nation is the people living in it and if you import Africans, your country is going to look a lot more like Africa.

[Anonymous No.12094401]

>read Marx
>’holy shit this makes sense’
>look up history of communism
>failed states, massive deaths, shitty living conditions, can’t continue my NEETdom under such a scenario
How does one grapple with the empirical failure of socialism/communism as a viable system while still being a Marxist? I feel like there’s a diamond in the dung hill but Marx heavily emphasised communism as the end game in his writings (mind you I’m only about a quarter of the way into Capital)

[Anonymous No.12094457]

>>12093910
>Why aren't you a Marxist
Obsession with muh work. And Marxists obsession with ideological purity over everything and demonising any aspect of capitalism. Also his writing is pretty dull after 100+ pages.

Left Libertarianism > oldschool Marxism.

>>12093942
If he did work for his Jew gold, it'd be "fucking champagne socialist" and if he were poor, it'd be "lol, loser is just jelly"

>>12094264
Climate change. Something that will hurt the idiots bitching about immigrants more than any imagined "open all boarders" policies. Tax evasion is pretty bad too, rich cunts steal at least 1/3 of the yearly budget in most first world countries.
And then there is the way too slow automation.

[Anonymous No.12094462]

>>12094401
why would you want to be a NEET under communism?

[Anonymous No.12094470]

>>12094462
I wanna be a NEET regardless.

[Anonymous No.12094472]

>>12093910
But I am, with some reservations

[Anonymous No.12094495]

>>12094470
If you are an able-bodied healthy person between 20 and 60 and refuse to do useful labour then society has no need nor duty to sustain you, and thus it shouldn't.
>He who does not work, neither shall he eat
>t. Saint Paul

[Anonymous No.12094503]

>>12093910
because i don't believe in materialist determinism

[Anonymous No.12094509]

>>12093983
>>12094285
>Side note: I never got why leftists say we need to bring third world immigrants to our countries and help them.
Is this another episode where anon pretends neoliberals were leftists all along that started the globalism wild ride? The problem with immigration is that Capital has gone global and consistently broken Labour in the 2nd and 3rd world by union-breaking in SA. These people are going to be coming in regardless of whether it is legal or not. The question is then whether we prevent them from being used to break labour rights in the 1st world.

[Anonymous No.12094511]

>>12094375
>i can't counter this concept that completely undermines my worldview so i'll just say it funny

Your utopia of 'a society of free producers' would be hell on earth for the vast majority.

[Anonymous No.12094517]

>>12094509
>Is this another episode where anon pretends neoliberals were leftists all along that started the globalism wild ride?
Are you implying they aren't? You've got retards like antifa saying we need to bring in refugees and destroy 'whiteness'

[Anonymous No.12094530]

>>12094517
They might be "leftists", that term is meaningless in current year, but whatever they themselves might claim, they have very little in common with Marx.

[Anonymous No.12094535]

>>12094375
>there is no human nature, humans are infinitely malleable creatures despite every single bit of data we have from behavioral genetics

[Anonymous No.12094545]

>>12094517
>You've got retards like antifa saying we need to bring in refugees and destroy 'whiteness'
Who? And can you prove these people are marxists?

Even then I don’t understand why people are so hostile to refugees yet consistently refuse to stop doing or at least acknowledge things that bring them over anyway like constant intervention in Middle East and in South America.

[Anonymous No.12094551]

>>12094132
Just wait until they turn you into a minority.

[Anonymous No.12094552]

>>12093997
Nothing of value was lost.

[Anonymous No.12094555]

>>12094545
No, what brings them here is the fact they know they will be taken care of.

[Anonymous No.12094565]

>>12094495
>wagecuck cope

[Anonymous No.12094566]

>>12094555
Sure that is one pull factor but there are other push factors too. Hell who do you even think is telling them what a good life here is. Sure as shit aren’t the leftists when they constantly whine about how shit everything is:

[Anonymous No.12094579]

>>12094555
>destroy country
>complain when the people who live there move to a country that hasn't been destroyed
What did Americans mean by this?

[Anonymous No.12094591]

>>12094530
>>12094545
>anyone who isn't a marxist isn't a leftist
I suppose Feuerbach, Kropotkin and Chomsky are right wingers as well, huh?

[Anonymous No.12094600]

>>12093983
For a history major you seem to have a pretty poor understanding of society.

[Anonymous No.12094602]

>it's another "commie scum pretend they aren't sjws and blame flyover cletuses for being responsible for bombing the fuck out of people and capitalism" thread

[Anonymous No.12094613]

>>12094602
The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

[Anonymous No.12094616]

>>12094591
None of this are neoliberals either

>>12094602
>it is another anon can’t argue so make a greentext that strawmans.

[Anonymous No.12094621]

>>12093910
>Why aren't you a Marxist, /lit/?
Logic.

[Anonymous No.12094623]

>>12094621
epicly memed my good player character sir

[Anonymous No.12094626]

>>12094555
You need a bit more factors to leave everything behind and risk your life to move to another country; otherwise we'd have millions of Burgers burning their ID's to get refugee status in Europe.

[Anonymous No.12094676]

>americans are waking up

[Anonymous No.12094767]

>>12094495
Nice consolation wagie

[Anonymous No.12094800]

>>12094401
>How does one grapple with the empirical failure of socialism/communism as a viable system while still being a Marxist?
>empirical failure
Hello America! The fact is communist ideals took Russia from some backwater to a superpower that not only rivaled the USA but at multiple points technically won.

Even ignoring the whole communism thing how can one see capitalism as success anymore. The seas are fucking dying. I watched large parts of the barrier reef die in my life all so people can spend their money on more shit from 3rd world countries that are being destroyed. How can a person see a sweatshop in Bangladesh and say "wow thanks capitalism so voluntary no exploitation here!". Nestle is literally stealing water to sell back to people when drought hits and is constantly caught using slaves. Material conditions have improved but at what cost? We can watch 2 hours of TV a night wile working 9 hours a day when we could work 4? wow awesome.

[Anonymous No.12094802]

>>12094602
>I have no ideas or even arguments so I'll just use some strawman I saw another anon use in another thread
Personally I'm against the whole NPC buzzword but then I see posts like this and I just have to wonder if there is some truth

[Anonymous No.12094805]

>>12094800
>to a superpower that not only rivaled the USA but at multiple points technically won.
*talking about the space race here

[Anonymous No.12094814]

Wanting to better the living conditions of proles necessitates wanting to increase consumption, which requires heightening resource use, pollution, and environmental degradation. Current levels of economic output are already going to be ecologically disastrous a few decades from now, and you're telling me I should want this even as the global population explodes.

Marxists are no more than productivist GDP worshippers, as bad as capitalists, only of a different sect. All you stupid monkeys do is irresponsibly demand more, more, more, on the verge of your gluttony plunging us into ecological catastrophe.

[Anonymous No.12094829]

>>12094029
>they're so deep because they read Devi and Serrano and think of Hitler as an incarnation of a Hindu god
the musical

[Anonymous No.12094868]

>>12094814
>living conditions of proles necessitates wanting to increase consumption
yeh no except it doesn't. Large parts of capitalism are literally pointless. For example marketing is worth billions probably more and the whole idea of that is just to make people buy shit. Look at what most "innovation" is these days. New iphone does 8 new things. 1k please. Capitalism creates unnecessary wants. We've seen a whole entire entertain buy pointless shit to fill that black hole in their chest.

Communists don't want to see people starving (we have enough food, it isn't properly distributed, capitalism is excess), they want education, they want homes, healthcare. All things I listed we have already.

The diea that they're the same as capitalists is grossly uninformed and shows your talking out your ass. You sound like some cucked centrist who says "ummmm no guys everything is actually equally bad. god im smart"

>All you stupid monkeys do is irresponsibly demand more, more, more, on the verge of your gluttony plunging us into ecological catastrophe.
MARX LITERALLY ADDRESSED THIS IN THE 1800'S. JUST FUCKING READ BEFORE TALKING OUT YOUR ASS

[Anonymous No.12094874]

>>12093983
>Why can't we go to their countries and help them where the problems are
Because countries where the average IQ is below 90 can't sustain democracy.

[Anonymous No.12094885]

>>12094874
>Because countries where the average IQ is below 90 can't sustain democracy.
Pretty much explains America. It's neo-cons om both sides yet people think their is a choice lmao. Hell California and NY are the only reason the south hasn't gone in to total destruction. The whole country is built on delusions.

[Anonymous No.12094925]

>>12094868
>Large parts of capitalism are literally pointless
This. Read the Bullshit Jobs essay

[Anonymous No.12094929]

>>12094868
You're genuinely deluded if you think giving the entire world all those things doesn't require increasing economic production. "The perfect distributory system will somehow provide billions of people with significantly improved standards of living without using any more resources." Marxism must be magic.

Don't strawman me as a defender of capitalism when I'm vastly more critical of it than you are. And don't paint me as a moderate when what I want is practically human extinction, whereas you're a milquetoast who "just wants everyone to be happy, man", no matter what the long-term consequences may be.

[Anonymous No.12094937]

Sigh I'm not going to repost my intelligent answer. Because marxism is stupid and has failed everywhere it has been tried!

[Anonymous No.12094944]

>>12094929
communism isnt about distribution

[Anonymous No.12094964]

>>12094944
Is this supposed to be a good point?

[Anonymous No.12094972]

>>12094964
Is this supposed to be a good comeback?

[Anonymous No.12094991]

>>12094972
Perfectly puerile. You post like a teen kid who just got into politics. This is my last reply to you, I don't want you to humiliate yourself any further.

[Anonymous No.12094998]

>>12094991

[Anonymous No.12095026]

>>12094998
This response to that reply with an image with that filename. The madman went and proved his point.

[Anonymous No.12095029]

>>12094005
Slavs are not white. Spaniards are not white

[Anonymous No.12095030]

>>12094304
I'd LOVE to see you disprove dialectical materialism anon

[Anonymous No.12095031]

>>12095026
guys a dumbass who likes angrily posting about 4chan about how smart he is
don't you see the absurdity of the situation, i can't keep a straight face to this long enough to really reply
its not like anyone here gives a shit about marx beyond epic e-fights

[Anonymous No.12095041]

>>12095031
I just google 'big brain wojak' btw idk what youre saying about the filename

[Anonymous No.12095045]

>>12094800
This

[Anonymous No.12095047]

>>12095026
>last reply to you
>still replies
Yea someone is really mad

[Anonymous No.12095053]

don't ever try to learn something from a discussion btw just make your opponents do an epic fail so you win the argument

[Anonymous No.12095054]

>>12095031
>its not like anyone here gives a shit about marx
There's a significant amount of marxists here newfriend. The /pol/ invasion diluted it but he's still pretty important here.

[Anonymous No.12095065]

>>12095054
you aren't contradicting what i said unfortunately

[Anonymous No.12095115]

>>12095029
>Americans are white.

[Anonymous No.12095126]

>>12095115
Whiter than you Ahmed

[Anonymous No.12095210]

I'm pretty skeptical of dialectics as a paradigm.

[Anonymous No.12095226]

>>12095126
>Whiter than you Ahmed

[Anonymous No.12095248]

>>12093997
This isnt /leftypol/ you faggot

[Anonymous No.12095251]

>>12093910
Off topic thread, get the fuck away from /lit/ with your politics shit

[Anonymous No.12095261]

>>12095251
He's an author with influential ideas. Seems /lit/ related to me.

[Anonymous No.12095274]

Leftism doesn't work.

Simple as.

[Anonymous No.12095383]

>>12095274
lmao that's from the boomer side of FB. I got a job and had to get a FB account and one of the 50 year old secretaries posted that EXACT same image. Sharon? Is that you by chance? Tap me on my shoulder 3 times on tuesday if it is!

>never ran a company
most people dont
>never held political office
yes? Most dont. Has no bearing on his ideas. Had a huge influence considering all thr riots he caused on those political offices
>never held a job
he was a journalist (paid on and off) and an editor for years. This image is propaganda. good goy for posting it. He was supported by engels who saw marx was smart. Engels did humanity a favour.

[Anonymous No.12095390]

This thread was moved to >>>/pol/193754388