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/lit/ - Literature

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12082209 No.12082209 [Reply] [Original]

Just finished this. Honestly one of the most exhilarating reading experiences of my life. How is it so underrated in Dostoevsky's cannon?

>> No.12082536

Is it that good? I've only read TBK but it was excellent so I'm looking to read more Dosto

>> No.12082876

>>12082209
It's not underrated at all

>> No.12082893

>>12082209
>underrated
You fucking slow or something?

>> No.12082897

I actually got pretty lost with all of the politics in this one, may have been the translation b/c I loved c&p, tbk, the idiot

>> No.12082944

>>12082876
>>12082893
how often do you hear it talked about on the same level as C&P and BK?

>> No.12082988

>>12082944
It's correctly rated below those two and equal with the idiot and notes from the dead house

>> No.12083004

>>12082988
You consider it equal to The Idiot?
I think I just found the real idiot.

>> No.12083032

>>12083004
It's in the same tier at least, some rate it higher some lower, but definitely below cp and tbk. If you just finished demons your judgement is clouded by the excellent second half and you're forgetting the first 400 pages where the characters are introduced and nothing much happens.
Demons is more political while the idiot is more personal.

>> No.12083039

>>12082944
I see this same thread every single day

>> No.12083061

The characters introductions were not bad but all of the middle parts not concerning Stavrogin, Kirilov and Shatov bored me. The last third of the book was excellent.

>> No.12083172

I feel like reading some of the Russians.
Should I read them in French or English? In which language does Russian best translates?

>> No.12083189

>>12083004
The Idiot is his best novel

>> No.12083593

>>12083172
Bump i am interrested

>> No.12083611

I started the book today and I’m 70 pages in. What should I expect?

>> No.12083646

>>12083611
An insight into the mindset of today's leftists as told in the 19th century.

>> No.12083663

>>12083172
If your choice is between English/French, go for French; I speak all 3 but never read French translations, but did read English ones, and they fall far short of the original works. French is closer to Russian than English is, so it is likely better.

>> No.12083687

>>12083646
Oh joy. I hung around a few leftist while at uni so I can only imagine what happens.

>> No.12083703

Am I wrong to have the suspicion that Stepan Trofimovich may have sexually molested, if not all the students under his tutorage, Nikolay Stavrogin? I felt this sense of uneasiness in the way Dostoevsky described the close relationships Stepan had with the main characters as children early in the novel.

>> No.12083832

>>12083703
you are wrong

>> No.12083865

>>12083663
>French is closer to Russian than English is
Thanks, that's kind of what I was wondering.

>> No.12083882

How is French any closer to Russian than English

>> No.12083969

>>12083832
why?

>> No.12084017

>>12083882
the languages are not similar in etymology, alphabet, or the like. But that isn't particularly relevant to translating Dostoevsky. The subtle similarities between French and Russian, though, are relevant. French has a formal/informal you, is a grammatically gendered language, and is much closer in origin as a language to Russian than is English. Also, Russian aristocracy spoke French for a good period of time, so French influenced Russian - one advantage is that a lot more proverbs are directly translatable to relay their accurate intention.

Ultimately, though, it all depends on the translator - make sure to find a good one.

>> No.12084681

>>12083882

Communism.

>> No.12084684

>>12083004
BTFO

>> No.12084902

>>12083703
Stepan was so good with children because he is a child himself. The entire novel characterizes him as a man almost incapable of doing anything other than passive aggressive nervous breakdowns

>> No.12086469

>>12084017
>is much closer in origin as a language to Russian than is English.
are you sure about this? However long ago Slavic broke off germanic and romance lines, the two might not even have been distinct back then

According this admittedly shitty tree Slavic seems closer to Germanic than Italic languages, or rather Germanic is situated between the two, which would makes sense geographically

>> No.12086476
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12086476

>>12086469

>> No.12086612

>>12083703
Yes, you are wrong. This is too modern a reading.

>> No.12086627

>When they tell the story of Von Lembke starting to be an adult, and making models of paper in his room when he was alone
legit shed a tear of honesty

>> No.12087282

>>12082209
Did it include that additional chapter about origins of Stavrogin’s character?

>> No.12087369

>>12087282
Oh, yes it did. And it was quite crucial.

>> No.12087415

>>12082209
>cannon
Are you retarded or ESL?

>> No.12087658

How ill-advised would it be for an anglo to try and learn Russian? I've gotten fairly decent with Japanese and would like to try for something else but I'm not sure if I shouldn't just go for something easier like French.

>> No.12088072

>>12087415
Are you a virgin or ugly?

>> No.12088974

>>12087658
As a fellow Anglo who tried to learn Russian, grammar isn't terribly hard, but pronunciation will KICK YOUR ASS if you care about being able speak it.

The real problem is Russian is actually similar to English in that there are tons of barely-distinguished synonyms with with widely varying connotations and much less of a emphasis on grammatical precision and "le mot juste" than French, so while it's fairly easy to get to a tourist level in Russian, it's very hard to get to an art appreciating level. The ne plus ultra of this Bely and Gogol, who have a doughty reputation even among professional translators

I'd do French frankly, vast tradition compared to Russian, which as Nabokov said, could be fit on a single shelf of the average bookshelf.

Should also add that native French speakers are actually very helpful if you show any enthusiasm, while native Russians are much more "asian", i.e. they will be happy to help you get to a tourist level, then insist that TRULY learning the language is impossible and outright refuse to teach you things because you would only get them wrong.

You should be familiar with this attitude as a student of Japanese.

>> No.12088979

>>12088072
Does the choice imply only ugly people get laid?

Aren’t you breaking that rule?

>> No.12089024

>>12083004
Duuuuude fucking DELETED

>> No.12090652

Deh

>> No.12091029

>>12088974
>native Russians are much more "asian"
as a Russian, can confirm. I knew an American girl who spoke fluent Russian, and every time she opened her mouth to utter a word in Russian I felt violated. I mean she looked like a typical Western girl with a soulless smile but she knew the word быдлaн. Быдлaн! Imagine that! It was an uncanny valley-ish experience for me, if it makes sense.

>> No.12091561

>>12091029
You sound like a prick, Boris

>> No.12091599

>>12091561
Sorry

>> No.12091623

>>12091599
It's all right you needn't be sorry I guess it's just a cultural feeling I'm not privy to

>> No.12091652

>>12088974
Yeah, I've been looking at Russian text and just sounding words out/trying to read them out loud just to practice and I already feel like an idiot in the pronunciation department trying to pronounce soft consonants and shit. It's funny, though, people with bad Japanese pronunciation really bother me (and I'm sure the same would be true for Russian if I spoke it) but I usually don't care if someone has a foreign accent in English. If anything, people with, say, French accents often sound smart to me (probably because I'm a burger who subconsciously sees French people as intellectual or something).

>> No.12091755

>>12091652
Are soft consonants difficult to pronounce?

>> No.12091796

>>12091755
Personally I find that some of them are very easy to distinguish from their "hard" counterpart while others are a bit more difficult. I suppose it's something you get used to, like anything else. I'm always just paranoid that I'm not saying things quite right and end up listening to a recording of a native speaker saying the word in question over and over again. Making sure to say unemphasized vowels right is also something that I need to stop and think about a lot since I'm used to vowels always being the same from Japanese. Granted, I haven't been at this for very long at all, so what do I know.

>> No.12092242

Reminder:
TBK > The Idiot > The Gambler > A Nasty Anecdote > C&P > the rest

>> No.12092247

Kirilow's suicide is on par with the murder scene in C&P.

>> No.12092427

>>12092242
lol your parents must be so proud of you

>> No.12092528

>>12092427
>lol
Out.

>> No.12093581

>>12092528
lol

>> No.12093647

>>12092528
lol

>> No.12093674

>>12092528
>>12093581
>>12093647
Remember how "kek" only became mainstream after blowing up on 4chan? Your own lingo has taken on a far greater cringe value than the normiespeak you contrarians desperately avoid. And don't forget that mods became so triggered by "tbqh" and "family" that they implemented the text replacement years ago when the instances of these phrases reached critical mass, but ultimately forgot to ever revert the change.

>> No.12093773

>>12083004
what the FUCK
This is bannable, right?

>> No.12093787

When did Demons replace The Idiot as the "le underrated dosto gem" daily thread? Will The Adolescent eventually replace it?

>> No.12093821

>>12082209
Faust was Dostoyevsky's best novel imo.

>> No.12093901

>>12093674
lol