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/lit/ - Literature

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11982199 No.11982199 [Reply] [Original]

How does one become a Christian and take the bible seriously? How does one take the claims of walking on water, excising demons, and virgins births (which are not unique to Christianity) seriously? I tried, but I can't do it.

>> No.11982205

>>11982199
check the new age guys where they explain the bible using some kind of ayy lmao science.

basically was modern day science or even some future day sci fi shit done by ayy lmaos to bronze age sheepers.

at least that's how I see it.

>> No.11982207
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11982207

Read Kierkegaard.

>> No.11982208

Become a Platonist instead.

>> No.11982231

A study of paranormal phenomena has convinced me in the very real possibility of the miraculous. A study of classical theistic arguments has convinced me that God exists. A study of traditionalist literature (e.g. Guenon) has convinced me of the profundity of traditional religious doctrines, metaphysics, symbolism, initiation etc. A study of Orthodox theology, Palamite theology especially, has convinced me that the impersonal metaphysics of the traditionalists is basically incorrect. That was my trajectory to Christianity. I'm still not quite there yet, I still have some other loose ends, but I'm getting close.

>> No.11982274

>>11982231
Can you clarify which paranomal phenomena, and what you mean by “impersonal metaphysics”?

>> No.11982282

>>11982199
You don't, just go with the flow and act like all its true, after a while you are going to start believing all that stuff if you don't try to rationalize it.

>> No.11982285

Pray with genuine faith for a sign

>> No.11982292

Praying fasting and reading the gospels.

>> No.11982301

>>11982231
This, the YouTuber chills made me a Catholic

>> No.11982319
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11982319

>>11982205
*snap*

>>11982199
Get some good solid theology into your brain. Faith is contingent upon the philosophical assumption that God exists. You can't have faith in Christ without believing He exists, and was Creator (read John 1). I would expand that to say all knowledge in a meaningful existence depends on it. I.e., an absolute morality is possible because God loves us and commanded us to love one another. He is the form of the good, the first principle and most perfect beauty. His divine grace is love, [and being His creations] the only thing we can want for itself.

Think of the philosophy of love and forgiveness espoused by Jesus in his dialectics as an advanced and voluntary form of the ideal government of Plato. The kingdom of God is ever yours, if you desire it.

For an anthropological perspective, read Campbell's Masks of God and Power of Myth. Man has always made stories about the divine superman. But Christ's case, the Logos Made Flesh, really is self-evident if you look at it carefully.

For proof of God, read Aristotle, Duns Scotus, and most importantly Aquinas. I haven't read and wouldn't understand Godel's ontological proof, but if you can more power to you.

A lot of the theurgic stuff from antiquity is helpful to know about, especially for understanding the context of Christ in a world of Greco-Roman philosophers, but unnecessary. Philo is a good early defender, but he really falls short of the Plotinus or Plato.

>> No.11982328

>>11982199
Read Swedenborg

>> No.11982360

>>11982199
It's called "faith," ya fuckin lepton

>> No.11982376

>>11982199
Fake it till you make it. Or don’t.

>> No.11982394

buddhism is the way, ignore this western religion shiet

>> No.11983140

>>11982394
Pmt, these mofos had it all figured out way before christcuckanity. It doesn't require nearly as much mental gymnastics too

>> No.11983158
File: 1.29 MB, 720x864, Emanuel_Swedenborg.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11983158

>>11982328
based

>> No.11983216

>>11982282
>>11982285
>>11982292
>>11982360
>>11982376
Seems like you're all saying I should deliberately try to suppress and shut off my critical thinking skills. If I came to you for advice because I was having trouble eating rancid meat without throwing up, it seems like you'd tell me to just keep doing it until I didn't vomit anymore, even though that's clearly a good thing.

>> No.11983224

>>11982319
>Get some good solid theology into your brain. Faith is contingent upon the philosophical assumption that God exists. You can't have faith in Christ without believing He exists, and was Creator (read John 1).
There's over a thousand different God's.

>> No.11983245
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11983245

>>11983224
good bait made me take out the camera

>> No.11983268

>>11983158
swedenborg was WAAAaay ahead of his time. he was a midwestern american housewife staying up at night watching creepy conspiracy videos and NDE testimonials about encounters with angels before midwestern american housewives staying up at night watching creepy conspiracy videos and NDE testimonials about encounters with angels was even a thing.

>> No.11983271

>>11982301
Gimme a link, I searched but just get normie spook shit

>> No.11983282

>>11983245
Why is your God true out of thousands of others?

>> No.11983291

>>11983224
The Christian God isn't "my particular version of a bearded man in the clouds".
Many casuals have a grave misunderstanding of the nature of God, and try to define him in terms that they can easily understand.
God is fundamentally unknowable aside from basic attributes you can deduce with logic (Aquinas). Union requires faith and submission. God is revealed, not discovered.

>> No.11983354

Well..

Jeremiah 29:11-13

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, sayeth the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give yoou an expected end.
Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all yhour heart.

Also to grow closer to God you should read and mediate on his Word daily and memorize scripture.

But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
And he shall be like a tree planted by rivers of water, that bringeht forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

That is part of from Psalm 1 but I suggest memorizing all of Psalm 1 because it is very helpful.

Read the parable of the sower in the Book of St. Mark chp 4. Our Lord Jesus Christ talks about being the seeds falling on good ground versus by the wayside or stony ground.

The ground near the rivers of water in Psalm 1 is very good ground. That is why we should medidate on his Word day and night.

God bless you anon.

>> No.11983380

>>11983291
Okay, so why do you believe the stuff in the bible if you cannot know anything else other than what can be derived with Aquinas' axiom?

>> No.11983570

>>11982199
>99% of the Bible is metaphor
>you see, this passage actually means...
>huh? Jesus? who's that?

>> No.11983610

>>11983216
A priest might say you should elevate your thinking into accepting the existence of that which all of your critical thinking can't comprehend and which the scientific method can neither prove nor disprove.

>> No.11983612

>>11983610
Spaghetti monster?

>> No.11983622

>he is so spooked he wants to LARP as a Christian to seem as contrarian and non “Reddit” as possible

>> No.11983694

>>11983224
There's over a thousand different of God's what?

>> No.11983705

>>11983612
You have never seriously engaged with any theological texts.

>> No.11983746

>>11982199
If you can't take it seriously that just means God hasn't decided to save you, just accept that and move on

>> No.11983747

>>11983380
The fact that 100% of those with firsthand knowledge of Jesus subjected themselves to torture, exile, and various executions is pretty good evidence that he was indeed God incarnate. No simple cult-leader can attain that kind of faith from their followers- they can get a good number to walk to their deaths, but there will always be some who break free and deny it.
The bible has been compiled over centuries by masters of theology, history, and philosophy. Within the Cathodox world, doctrine is a big fucking deal, and adding or excluding anything, however minor, takes a massive consensus from people who have dedicated their entire lives to furthering the insight of the original apostles and church fathers. The biggest schism in the church's history was triggered by a single word in the creed.

Compare this with other religions and you'll see that there's comparatively very little concrete doctrine, and varying amounts of reasoning behind what's there.

>> No.11983777

>>11983746
Is this Calvinism?

>> No.11984124

>>11983268
honestly I see him as a direct extension of neoplatonism as applied to Christianity; I also think his idea of interpreting of the bible as having an additional, interior spiritual meaning is exactly what Christian mysticism needs to become comparable with other religions (Islam's Sufism, Judaism's Kabbalah, etc).

>> No.11984133

>>11983777
no, Calvinism implies a state of spiritual unknowing which relies entirely on other power. Out of this full entrusting in God, natural repentance and true faith will arise.

>> No.11984163

>>11982199
Treat every story like the boy who cried wolf. It's all designed to teach individual lessons.

>> No.11984278

>>11982199
Miracles are real and occur in the modern era

>> No.11984321

>>11984278
these are modern times! There ain't supposed to be miracles no more

>> No.11984401

>>11983747
We don’t know for sure that the biblical accounts of the apostles’ martyrdom are all accurate. Also, if the NT is to be believed, thousands of people had “firsthand” experiences with Jesus and did not face execution for it. Nevertheless, dying for a cause does not necessarily corroborate the veracity of that cause. Look at the Jonestown suicides, the Manson murders, or any other of the countless examples of people doing extraordinary things under the influence of a charismatic personality. I’m not trying to say Jesus was a fraud, but the supposed acts of he apostles don’t prove that he wasn’t.

>> No.11984431

>>11982199
My biggest hurdle to being a Christian are the prophets. So God decides to reveal himself and his word to a handful of wandering desert-dwellers in the Middle East centuries apart from each other, but, being all-wise and all-powerful, cannot bother to just communicate directly with every human on Earth at the same time, for whatever reason... Seems like a giant plot hole in the Biblical narrative.

>> No.11984447

>>11984163
What about the parts of the Bible that repeat themselves, like the echoes of the story of Jacob in the story of Micah?

>> No.11984453

>>11984447
treat it like a leitmotif

>> No.11984795

I consider myself a Christian, but I have these doubts I'm too proud to tell a local bishop to, and Aquinas doesn't really respond (I might have misunderstood him):
If God is really omniscient and full of love, then why did he made us intellectual free-will beings, vulnerable to temptation and sin? Why did he create us this way?
Same thing with Lucifer.
Isn't it cruel of him to make beings predestined to rebellion and suffering?
Also, what is the point of free-will if he will punish us when we don't act according his will?

>> No.11984846

>>11984795
I meant a local priest.
Sorry, my mind is all jumbled.

>> No.11984861

>>11982199
It's strange how people act all knowledgeable about literature until it comes to The Bible, then suddenly they forget what allegory/metaphor/symbolism/general figurative language is.

>> No.11984870

>>11984431
You know how I know you've never read the Bible?
>There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
If they hear not Moses nor the prophets, they will not hear the voice of God himself. The free will of man means absolute freedom to disbelieve, which God will not infringe upon.
>>11984795
That's the only way he could make us. Intelligent beings capable of making moral decisions naturally have the power to choose good or evil. God wanted intelligent beings--beings like Himself, created in His own image. But this requires the possibility of evil and suffering. Lucifer chose rebellion, and so fell.

>> No.11985516

The Bible ought to be taken figuratively and not literally at any moment; it serves well as the base for conservative thought and as a sort of compendium of social types, but aside from that and some rather good prose (I'm reading the NIV rn), it's really not worth reading. You shouldn't try to become a christian. That's taking a step backwards.

>> No.11985520

it was ayys, bible is babylonian history from jews perspective

>> No.11985582

>[...]and take the bible seriously?

One doesn't. That's the great thing about christianity - at least in germany. When you partake in religion lessons in public schools you will read some choosen pieces of the bible, put them in historical context and discuss why the authors came up with those stories.

We do the same with the quoran. But implying that Mohammed made the verses up by himself displeasures many muslims. Sometimes, their private quoran-teachers tell them to drop out of schools when this comes up. But police catches the muslim students and puts them back into the classroom. (We can't do anything against the private quoran-teachers because they are mostly turkish civil servants and have diplomat rights. As long as Merkel wants them here, Police can't do shit against them).

>> No.11985584

>>11985582
>state-enforced religious indoctrination
wew

>> No.11985589

>>11982319
>really is self-evident
lel

>> No.11985592

>>11985582
the absolute state

>> No.11985593

Hit yourself in the head with a brick a few times or be born into it so the stupidity infects you early and gives you biases towards ridiculousness.

>> No.11985597

>>11982199
Egregore and meme magic made everything possible. Mammon is a meme god and can alter the course of history and even what you learn of it. Clocks as well guide human behavior and life - even what we see and how we see others.
There are no limits to reality beyond doubt.

>> No.11985600

>>11985584
It's called public education. We live in 21st century.

>> No.11985608
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11985608

All right, my problem with christianity is that it is heavily based on FAITH. Like, from the start, that's the starting point of it all to become a good christian.
How does this "you just gotta trust me" that's going on for centuries doesn't sound like a scam?

>> No.11985612
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11985612

>>11985608

You just gotta trust me.

>> No.11985634

>>11982208
Christianity is platomism

>> No.11985640

>>11985608
Belief is Universal. You can only change what you believe. Christianity is a relatively sane belief system, compared to the syncretic nihilism and relativism that follows leaving Christianity. I prefer having my taboos make sense instead of merely being born out of fear or psychological conditioning.

>> No.11985645

>>11982199
Simulation theory.

>> No.11985684

>>11982199
Meme theory and dark Enlightenment allow for Christianity to be believed. You should be able to find out about paranormal activities through Jung and alchemy if not through experience.

Prayer and psychedelics too. Don't underestimate them.

>> No.11985742

>>11982199
you've steadily retained your absurdist view of time and space absent of metaphysics (which are naturalistically evident for the existence of principle;god)
start with the contemplation of creationism and the importance of our universe fabricated as god intended -rather than heathen & darwinian mysticism, gnosticism, absurdism etc.- in order for our sense of self awareness to exist in the first place

>> No.11985755

>>11983271
That's who he meant lol. The spooktuber with the funny voice. It was a joke.

>> No.11985885

>>11985640
Isn't being a christian for utilitarian reasons like not being christian at all?

>> No.11986052

>>11982207
Based

>> No.11986213

>>11984870
Ok, but that really doesn't address the plot hole I mentioned. If God was so concerned with transmitting His message of salvation to His children, why not do it the quick and easy way: tell every person at once. I mean, when Microsoft wishes to update it's customers' operating systems, they do not just give the update to one man and order him to transmit it to others, one system at a time. It would be much easier to just send the updates out all at once.

>> No.11986286

>>11985640
>Christianity is a relatively sane belief system, compared to the syncretic nihilism and relativism that follows leaving Christianity.
God forbid we struggle in the path to find a way to fill the soul-crushing void that had been occupied for thousands of years.

>> No.11986357

>>11982205
Cringe and bluepilled
>>11982207
Based and redpilled

>> No.11986381

>>11983747
>crazy people doing crazy things because they actually believe it
that's hardly a reasonable way to proof the validity of a book collection

>> No.11986391

>>11986213
Except if the computer is not connected to the internet, in wtch case they get no updates.
It's the same with God if you do not accept him in your heart good luck getting that updeit.

>> No.11986406

>>11986213
This makes sense as soon as you realize the reason for those "plot holes".
There is no god who wants everyone to worship him, but humans want something like that so people came together and started to come up with flawed illogical stories.
>>11986391
That's not how a god works who is capable of creating worlds, there are obvious ways he could give the "update" to the people, for all it matters he could just, being god and all, just appear to everyone and give them his salespitch.

>> No.11986423

>>11985640
>You can only change what you believe.
>he actually believes that he can change his believes
That shit doesn't work, if you don't get something to change your mind then you will never change your believe because you actually believe it.
You inevitably need external intervention to change believes.

>> No.11986437

>>11985885
I am more reminded of the parable of the prodigal son, and your attitude is close to the elder brother's in that story.

>>11986286
But I know for certain that you won't find a solution because it's exactly what you left behind. God hasn't been proven wrong, we simply stopped believing.

However, God is very much alive and if humans cease believing in Him, someone else will.

>> No.11986445

christianity is a religion made by poor plebs for poor plebs.

>> No.11986447

>>11986423
>You inevitably need external intervention to change believes.
Consider that prayer gives this. Then be terrified for the right reasons.

>> No.11986536

>>11986447
Admittedly i am terrified having to consider that a majority of the human population is virtually schizophrenic.

>> No.11986982
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11986982

>>11986536
so what is it like being completely ignorant of the first philosophy?

>> No.11987103

>>11986437
>God hasn't been proven wrong
Oh so you're just trolling.

>> No.11987116

>>11982199
Read about symbolism. Try Jung.

>> No.11987121

>>11982231
this much work and you still can't place your faith in Christ?

>> No.11987136

>>11987116
>Muh Jung.

/lit/ is just /x/ that pretends to be intellectual.

>> No.11987168

>>11982231
Imagine how stupid this retard must be to be convinced by such garbage. My God, this board is depressing.

>> No.11987233
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11987233

>>11982205
Kek. I love this theory (though I don't believe it for a second) because it pisses scientific and religious people off in an equal measure. It's the ultimate contrarian theory.

>> No.11987258

>>11987116
>dude synchronicity
Honestly, Jung explains the weird with the weirder.

>> No.11987263

Learn to pray

>> No.11987290

>>11982207
But he just teaches you how to become an ironic christian. That kind of "faith" won't get you very far.

>> No.11987303

>>11982319
>For proof of God, read Aristotle, Duns Scotus, and most importantly Aquinas
Problem is, not a single one of these "proofs" necessarily implies the real, literal, existence of miracles. I COULD rationally believe in the existence of God as First Cause (in fact, I think that's the ONLY rational argument that could potentially convince me of the existence of God), but then, all I'm believing in is just an abstract first principle that just serves the purpose of intellectual closure of my nice little theoretical system; an abstract principle that somehow gives rise to the laws of nature, but that I can't in any way prove that has the power of altering said laws (and I don't think it is an inaccurate statement to said that "miracles" are basically breaches of natural law), and, moreover, I can't prove that it has any of the other properties traditionally ascribed to it by Christian theology (like for example being the source of all good and the provider of the most fundamental moral laws). And I'm saying all this not a as a fedora tipper, but as someone who would LOVE to believe in God because I can clearly see the pragmatic and theoretical advantages of doing so.

>> No.11987653

>>11986982
>not wanting to hear voices in your head means your are somehow ignorant
Hey, you do you but don't go pretending you are sane, at least most Christians are comparatively sane and don't actually believe to hear gods voice when praying

>> No.11988456

This was something that I struggled with myself. But listen carefully when I say this: "Doubt is faith seeking understanding." That was told to me by a very dear family friend who is also a Christian. He also made it clear to me that God wants you to question him, he doesn't just want obedient little soldiers, if he did he would only make Angels.

>> No.11988533

>>11987136
>>11987258
The bible uses lots of symbolism that doesn't make sense if taken literally. I'm not denying that Jung is sometimes wrong, but he is a good place to start learning about symbolism.

>> No.11988546

>>11982231
Look into the historicity of the Resurrection. Gary Habermas, NT Wright, William Lane Craig.

>> No.11988644

How come a majority of the arguments in this thread could apply to religion centered around a single omnipotent god?

>> No.11988659

>>11982199
be a gnostic or a retard

>> No.11988693

>>11987653
You're the only one who mentioned hearing voices m8.

>> No.11988720

>>11982199
how are you thinking about it?
the jew way?
the proddy way?
the latin way?
the greek way?
each changes things a great deal

>> No.11988729

>>11982199
The Bible is not meant to interpreted literally in its entirety. I struggle myself with the proclaimed miracles performed by Jesus, but there is value in its wisdom. Faith is supposed to be a struggle.

>> No.11989042

>>11985608

The development of reason reveals and reaffirms the necessity of faith. Right reason shows that God exists, and that right relation to him- to know him and love him- is man's proper end. But reason also reveals man's limits in intellectual power and moral ability to achieve this desire. Right reason concludes, then, that man was not made to stand upon his own power, but to have faith in God. Such faith goes beyond and completes reason, but does not contradict it.

>> No.11989049

>>11988729
God rules creation sovereignly, so to rule the physical and spiritual world as Depicted by Christ is easily possible.

>> No.11989100

>>11983747
the Muslim...thing is how autistic about their holy book they are. they literally derive all law from its concrete doctrine

>> No.11989104

>>11982199
Check out Paul Vanderklay and Jonathan Pageau on youtube

>> No.11989179

>>11989042
For someone taking so much about reason you seem to have very little of it, you boring, larping drone.

>> No.11989347

>>11988693
Because only people who hear voices change their believes after praying

>> No.11989557

>>11987290
He lets you rationalize up to the point of the leap of faith, a process which is important for people who are skeptical about belief.

>> No.11990751

the only thing preventing me from believing in an abrahamic religion is the sheer amount and severity of unjustified suffering affecting people. a child can have its throat slit in a live leak video, before being beheaded and paraded around on the back of a pickup truck in god knows what part of the middle east. Infants can be born with terminal and critical illnesses that cause them to live in unbearable pain for a handful of months before dying without ever leaving the hospital. Adults can be injured into a coma, trapped in their immobile bodies and condemned to hellish insanity at the mercy of whoever is keeping them alive. If the only pain in the world was that which could be treated, or happened as the result of a person's conscious actions upon themselves, then i could believe in a God that has control over all. otherwise i feel like we've been abandoned, created as a careless whim or practice for a proper creation.

>> No.11990819

>>11990751
You are describing the problem of evil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuwNhed4ObU&feature=youtu.be&t=34

Your mistake, and Lex Luthor's, is that you are viewing suffering from a mortal perspective, and presuming to pass judgment on an agency that is beyond your comprehension.

The truth is you don't know why these things happen. The best you can do is to do as commanded: comfort others in their suffering.