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/lit/ - Literature

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1195355 No.1195355 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /lit/, how do you feel about Jonathan Franzen's rules for writing?

>>The reader is a friend, not an adversary, not a spectator.

>>Fiction that isn't an author's personal adventure into the frightening or the unknown isn't worth writing for anything but money.

>>Never use the word "then" as a conjunction – we have "and" for this purpose. Substituting "then" is the lazy or tone-deaf writer's non-solution to the problem of too many "ands" on the page.

>>Write in the third person unless a really distinctive first-person voice ­offers itself irresistibly.

>>When information becomes free and universally accessible, voluminous research for a novel is devalued along with it.

>>The most purely autobiographical fiction requires pure invention. Nobody ever wrote a more auto biographical story than " The Metamorphosis ".

>>You see more sitting still than chasing after.
It's doubtful that anyone with an internet connection at his workplace is writing good fiction.

>>Interesting verbs are seldom very interesting.

>>You have to love before you can be relentless.

>> No.1195357

I like 'em. I have a couple problems, though.

>>The reader is a friend, not an adversary, not a spectator.
I just don't think about the reader when I write.

>>Interesting verbs are seldom very interesting.
I'm not sure about this one.

>> No.1195360

Rules for writing are just dumb in general.

>> No.1195373 [DELETED] 

> Write in the third person unless a really distinctive first-person voice ­offers itself irresistibly.
He gives no reason for this, because it's right-wing dogma. Notice the romantic bullshit of 'offers itself'. Ideas don't exist outside people. If you think of a voice, you thought of it.

>When information becomes free and universally accessible, voluminous research for a novel is devalued along with it.
This isn't even advice, unless he's saying 'don't bother learning too much because people will assume you cribbed it from Wikipedia anyway.' No they won't, if it's detailed enough, if it breathes - and who cares how they stumble upon a fact in the first instance, if they go on to use it like Pynchon?

> The most purely autobiographical fiction requires pure invention. Nobody ever wrote a more auto biographical story than " The Metamorphosis ".
This isn't about the truism that we invent ourselves, this is Franzen wanting you to share his wormy attitude to the materials of his pampered wastrel's life.

> You see more sitting still than chasing after.
He hopes. He's wrong.

> It's doubtful that anyone with an internet connection at his workplace is writing good fiction.
Translation: It's doubtful anyone with an internet connection is writing fiction as though Eisenhower were still President. Or does he mean no-one with a day-job is allowed to write?

> Interesting verbs are seldom very interesting.
Most of his tips are, at heart, expressions of a hatred and mistrust of living language.

> You have to love before you can be relentless.
Middlebrow cant, bad as a motivation poster.

>> No.1195372 [DELETED] 

He's a bad writer, and his advice is consistent with his talent.

> The reader is a friend
Nooooooooooo.

> Fiction that isn't an author's personal adventure into the frightening or the unknown isn't worth writing for anything but money.
Middlebrow cant - and Franzen's books are all about suburban white people, a species he knows like the back of his hand. He might try writing a novel that acknowledges the last sixty years. That would be an adventure for him.

> Never use the word "then" as a conjunction – we have "and" for this purpose. Substituting "then" is the lazy or tone-deaf writer's non-solution to the problem of too many "ands" on the page.
What? Fuck no, asshole, you can't outlaw a usage.

cont.

>> No.1195375

>>It's doubtful that anyone with an internet connection at his workplace is writing good fiction.

Or writing anything for that matter. I agree with some of them, and ignore the others. Each to their own.

>> No.1195376

>>1195373
>>1195372

You started off with a good point, so it's too bad you're just a whackjob.

>> No.1195380

>>1195375
>>1195372
>>1195373
i think you're just jelly you can't write a book and be famous for it, but you have to write on 4chan instead.

>> No.1195378 [DELETED] 

>>1195360

They are, but more dumb when written by Franzen.

>> No.1195384 [DELETED] 

>>1195376

What makes you call me a whackjob? Is it because I dared criticise a famous person, or is it because you like reading bad fiction?

>> No.1195385 [DELETED] 

>>1195380

Franzen will never lose his Oprah fanbase.

>> No.1195387

>>1195372
>Middlebrow

I stopped reading there, you're a hell of a lot worse than he is.

>> No.1195388

>>1195384
it's because anyone over 18 doesn't see your juvenile act of rebellion as something meaningful except for whackjobs

>> No.1195390

>>1195385
Still mad, mad jelly.

>> No.1195393 [DELETED] 

>>1195388

It's not an act of rebellion. You see how frightened you are of rich and famous people? I'm just asserting my right as a reader to identify Franzen's tips as what they are, windy horseshit from a bad writer. I really pity you if you're so timorous you have to regard the exercise of free speech as some kind of empty gesture.


>>1195387

Why? What's wrong with calling it by its name?

>> No.1195401

>>1195393
>It's not an act of rebellion.
>You see how frightened you are of rich and famous people? >I'm just asserting my
>right as a reader
>right as a reader to identify Franzen's tips as what they are,
>windy horseshit from a bad writer.
>I really pity you
>I really pity you if you're so timorous
>timorous
>you have to regard
>you have to regard
>the exercise of free speech as some kind of empty gesture.
>the exercise of free speech as some kind of empty gesture.

>> No.1195404 [DELETED] 

>>1195401

What does this even mean? You LIED ABOUT WHAT I WROTE. It's not any kind of gesture of 'act of rebellion', it's criticism. Why would you rather identify yourself as an asshole than apply your own critical intelligence to Franzen's worthless advice?

>> No.1195411 [DELETED] 

Franzen is one Yid I'd love to pop in the oven.

Carry on.

>> No.1195414

>>1195393
i don't give a shit about what he has to say, because i don't like his books. i'm not afraid of him, but i'm not out to prove him wrong either. in contrast to yourself, who has a score to settle for no good reason. carry on, then.

>> No.1195415

>>1195401
lol
>It's not an act of rebellion,
>I'm just asserting my right as a reader.
>My right as a reader.
>You see how frightened you are of rich and famous people?
>My right as a reader to identify Franzen's tips as what they are.

>Windy horseshit from a bad writer.
>I really pity you,
>I really pity you if you're so timorous.
>You have to regard the exercise of free speech,
>as some kind of empty gesture.
>the exercise of free speech as some kind of empty gesture.

>Free speech. I'm just asserting my right.
>It's not an act of rebellion.

>> No.1195422

Lit fight, everyone gather 'round.

>> No.1195426 [DELETED] 

>>1195414

I have no score to settle. The OP asked for people's opinions. I responded. You seem to think that only some kind of grudge can make people bother to express opinions. That isn't the case. You're the one making yourself look like a 'whackjob' with this sullen, passive-aggressive bullshit.

>> No.1195427 [DELETED] 

>>1195411
>>1195414

Hmm.

>> No.1195450

>>The reader is a friend, not an adversary, not a spectator.

stopped reading right there, guy thinks he's fucking Wolfgang Iser or some shit

>> No.1195454 [DELETED] 

>>1195450

Exactly. When Franzen manages to write a single book that isn't just the mildly boring lives of Reader's Digest customers, I may take a look at his advice.

>> No.1195528

You forgot one, OP.

>> When selected by Oprah to be part of her book club throw a hissy fit.

>> No.1195547

>>1195426

I read his rules. Then I decided not to read him ever. I always see his books, but if those are his rules for writing, I never need to read him.

>> No.1195587 [DELETED] 

>>1195547

They are useful, then; they warn you to steer clear of his shit books.

>> No.1195601

>>1195454
see
>>1195414

>> No.1195606 [DELETED] 

>>1195601

wat

>> No.1195611

>The reader is a friend, not an adversary, not a spectator.

Harlan Ellison says that as well, and he is my favorite author, so I guess I think it is good.

>It's doubtful that anyone with an internet connection at his workplace is writing good fiction.

Eh, Ellison has no internet and Brian Herbert does, so he might be onto something......

>> No.1195613

>>1195375

Hence why no one on /lit/ will ever write a good book.

>> No.1195638

>>1195611

Well damn, when you put it that way.

And fuck Brian Herbert. God damn, man. I think I would have more respect for him if he dug up his father and raped the corpse than what he actually did.

>> No.1195650

>>1195606
see
>>1195606


mindfuck

>> No.1195647 [DELETED] 

>>1195638

Brian Herbert's actions have given readers one less cubbyhole to hide in from real literature. The murder of a profitable 'franchise' can only be looked upon with delight by real readers.

>> No.1197095

There are some good rules here but why anyone would want to emulate this dude as a pure prose stylist is beyond me

>> No.1197166

Anyone who gives you "Rules for Writing" is actually giving you "Rules for Writing like Me."

>> No.1197186

> Nobody ever wrote a more auto biographical story than " The Metamorphosis ".

He, or OP, has copied that from somewhere. I believe Nabokov said it first.

>> No.1197187

Rules for writing are bullshit. Let the writer take up surgery or bricklaying if he is interested in technique. There is no mechanical way to get the writing done, no shortcut. The young writer would be a fool to follow a theory. Teach yourself by your own mistakes; people learn only by error. The good artist believes that nobody is good enough to give him advice. He has supreme vanity. No matter how much he admires the old writer, he wants to beat him.

/Faulkner

>> No.1197188

>>1197187

Friendly paradox of the day:

>Don't take my theories on writing as advice.

>> No.1197213
File: 48 KB, 350x267, kenn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1197213

ITT: People using words like "jelly" instead of "jealous" when discussing literature. What is wrong with you kids? Use real words. Slang does not make you cool; instead your thoughts lose all meaning or weight when you use it.

>>1195372
This guy may not be right about everything but at least he's employing coherent thoughts you fucking teenagers.

>> No.1197313

>>1197188
>>1197187

Paradox or no, that's still damn good advice.

>> No.1197316

>You have to love before you can be relentless.

what the hell does that even mean

>> No.1197318

>>1197213
Last I checked, "jelly" was a real word.

>> No.1197320

>>1197316

I took it as giving a shit about your characters before you shit all over them

>> No.1197327
File: 159 KB, 520x818, 1285976853102.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1197327

>>1197213

>> No.1197332

>>1197320

that's it
I hate reading a story where you can just tell the author has nothing but disdain for the characters. What the fuck is that bullshit?

>> No.1197351

lol at all you hipster writer wannabe obnoxious faggots dissecting ops post line by line and actually think what you're saying is witty or clever - newsflash you're all a bunch of dumbass losers, just kill yourselves

>> No.1197353

>>1197351
0/10

lamest attempt i've seen at trolling here in a while.
go practice at /adv/ or /fit/

>> No.1197360

>>1197353
i lol'd because ur such a fucking retard. "0/10" "trolling?" hahaahaha gtfo
just kill urself

>> No.1197368
File: 10 KB, 200x200, ScruffySecond.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1197368

>>1197213

>> No.1197423

>i lol'd because ur such a fucking retard. "0/10" "trolling?" hahaahaha gtfo
just kill urself
lol just lol

>> No.1198202

>>1197351
you had me until "just kill yourselves". It's gotta be subtle. 2/10

>> No.1198204

Why he gotta hate on the first person