/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11937992]

>desire to self-teach Latin returns

[Anonymous No.11938003]

>>11937992
Is it true their Vs sound like W?? Veni Vidi Vici sounds Weni Widi Wici, or that YouTubr video I saw was utter shit??

[Anonymous No.11938010]

>>11937992
I'm learning now. I'm obsessed. Good luck, anon. I love this shit. Maybe someday I will be able to shitpost in Latin then I can tell my mom "shitpostavi in lingua latina, mater!"

[Anonymous No.11938016]

Well get on with it then.
Making a thread about it and using the replies as a means of gratification instead of actually doing it won't work this time. Get to work.

[Anonymous No.11938033]

>>11938016
hey, condescending anon, not OP, but you can fuck right off

[Anonymous No.11938050]

>>11938033
>Replies: 4 (+OP) = 5. Posters: 4
You're totally OP.

[Anonymous No.11938058]

>>11938033
Oh no, my feelings. Better wallow in anger instead of studying. If that's the out you were looking for, go ahead and use it, OP.

[Anonymous No.11938062]

>>11938050
nope, i'm this guy >>11938010
fuck you still tho

[Anonymous No.11938066]

>>11938016
>>11938050
>>11938058
blow it out your ass

[Anonymous No.11938068]

>>11938033
have another (you) faggot

[Anonymous No.11938072]

>>11938068
i (you)d myself :(((
this was for you, fagster >>11938050
:DDDD

[Anonymous No.11938417]

>>11938050
That's not how replies work
Op doesn't count in the posters number

[Anonymous No.11938421]

why not do it

[Anonymous No.11938447]

>>11937992
IMPORTANT: buy the book Latin - an intensive course by Floyd L Moreland and Rita M Fleischer.

If youre not learning with this book, you are shortchanging yourself. Dont move on until you have memorized every vocab and special syntax and can translate every example flawlessly. Be as precise as possible. Chapter 6 is a doozy, but you just gotta do it.

[Anonymous No.11938526]

>>11938417
>Op doesn't count in the posters number
Yes it does count.

[Anonymous No.11938650]

>tfw found my deceased grandma's Latin schoolbooks

[Anonymous No.11938660]

>>11938447
>buy the book
can I just pirate it or are there exercises and stuff that need to be done in the book

[Anonymous No.11938671]

P E R S E I L L V S T R A T A

[Anonymous No.11938676]

>>11938660
you must colour-in pictures of Augustus using the provided crayons

[Anonymous No.11938693]

>>11938676
kek

[Anonymous No.11938709]

>>11938003
It's true, and a hard C noise, and a long i. Wenee, Weedee, Weekee.

I teach Latin to undergrads, so let me know if you have any questions (Classics phd). Don't listen to anyone that swears that only one textbook will work; your work ethic is much more important than your textbook choice. Some of my students got great with Orberg's Lingua Latina (natural method) others with Cambridge / Oxford's grammar trans methods.

[Anonymous No.11938710]

>>11938660
No, you dont need to physically have the book. Id encourage you to buy it though. Mine is marked to hell. I found myself frequently having to mark on the actual pages. Thats just how I am, though.

[Anonymous No.11938742]

>>11938709
>It's true, and a hard C noise, and a long i. Wenee, Weedee, Weekee.

I thought Latin was supposed to sound badass, that sounds like a song from the Teletubbies.

[Anonymous No.11938744]

>>11938447
i recommend you this book awhile back, anon. glad u liked it.

[Anonymous No.11938753]

>>11938742
"Badass" is a construct, mate. Sounding silly at first to future English readers accustomed to the language, I promise, does not make Latin poetry less beautiful nor the reality of the Roman state less awe inspiring

[Anonymous No.11938766]

>>11938753
Is latin haaarrd??

[Anonymous No.11938775]

>>11938742
>he doesn't think Kaisser is more badass than seazer

[Anonymous No.11938781]

>>11938766
If you don't try, yeah. Especially if you're currently monolingual, self taught, and not motivated by a real strong need to learn

[Anonymous No.11938796]

>>11938766
No, it really is not. Its incedibly difficult for about a couple months, and then you start to get a knack for how the sentance is gonna turn out based on word order and you notice specific clauses and it all just comes together and becomes simply a matter of memorization. Its def not japanese or mandarin.

[Anonymous No.11938813]

>>11938775
I was referring to the V sound not the C sound.

[Anonymous No.11938816]

>>11937992
my latin book is sitting in my closet

[Anonymous No.11938821]

Please don't follow this guy's advice and get memed on OP >>11938447
Modern latinists are obsessed with translating latin into their native language (which I'll call English), by deciphering and decoding the grammatical relationships and syntax in the text, rather than reading the text. Go to a university classics department and find out how many students can read latin in the way any other person reads a language - by moving their eyes left to right across the page, advancing line by line, probably subvocalising, and at a rate of ~1page/minute (for arguments sake). Most latinists cannot do this and first have to translate the text into english through a tortuous process of dissection and analysis, only deriving meaning from their english translations and never actually appreaciating the latin text itself. Latinists have a whole host of excuses as to why this is - the ultimate answer truly is that the field of classics got memed on by G*rmans in the 19th century and never recovered. Most Latin teachers have mininmal language proficiency and could not actually teach the latin language itself even if they wanted to, they can only teach only about its cases, conjugations and syntax (etc.) in English.

Imagine walking into a language classroom, and the teacher coudn't read, write or converse in the language they taught. That is 99% of latin classrooms. Most Latin students do not want to admit that they have wasted years of time learning a completely worthless 'skill'. Imagine meeting a person who was learning Russian to read its literature - if after 5 or 50 years of learning this person was 'enjoying' Dostoevsky by painfully assembling english translations of his work at a rate of lines/hour, based on careful analysis of the grammar and morphology of the words and constant reference to a dictionary. You would probably wonder why this person had wasted so much time on such a fruitless endeavour instead of reading pre-existing translations made by experts.

cont.

[Anonymous No.11938829]

>>11938821
Practical advice: Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata Pars I: Familia Romana is currently the best latin textbook on the market, and one of the best language textbooks ever made. Its latinity is impeccable and the method astounding in its efficacy. It is a monolingual latin only natural method textbook which teaches latin in latin, starting with "Roma in Italia est" and growing more and more complex through a continuous narrative concerning a Roman household until you are able to read extracts from real Roman authors. It still includes grammar and exercises but it's all in latin (which it will teach you), and there are no translation excercises. Completing Familia Romana is a solid foundation even if you decide to move away from the LLPSI series. There is a lot of supplementary material, which I will skip over for brevity. The next main entry in the series Pars II: Roma Aeterna is more advanced and less suitable for autodidacts. It is 90% real Roman latin literature with some omissions and adaptations, documenting the history of Rome from its mythological origins up to around 150BC. The difficulty increases very quickly in Pars II, and most have to do a fair amount of supplementary work to get through it.

The runner up textbook series is the criminally underrated William Most's Latin by the Natural Method. It was written by a Catholic priest and has a strong focus towards christian latin, it's bilingual (english/latin) and is very suited to the needs of autodidacts. The non-historical textbook latin is not written to as high a standard as Familia Romana (it is still grammatically correct, just obviously non-native), but does the job well enough. It works you through a long retelling of the more interesting Old Testament stories in simple latin before moving you on to prayers, church fathers and some pagan Romans.

The Academia Vivarium Novum (a school in italy which tries to recreate the renaissance humanist experience, communicating only in latin) also has a large collection of public domain textbooks and readers:
https://vivariumnovum.it/risorse-didattiche/pratica-didattica/libri-scolastici

Also see this guy's (PhD Classical Philology) video on learning latin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Kk7VkoWbc

[Anonymous No.11938838]

>>11938753
What Latin poems do you recommend?

[Anonymous No.11938846]

>>11938003
I heard it was more like a "u". So "Ave Caesar" becomes "Aue Kaisar"

[Anonymous No.11938855]

>>11938821
>>11938829
good posts. have a (you).

[Anonymous No.11938863]

>>11938709
In Cicero's in verrem, book 4 he says:
>ea detrahenda curavit omnia
Does curo take an ablative case and detrahenda is the ablative future passive participle? Or is detrahenda a gerund?
Should it be translated as
>he took care that they all were to be taken away
Or
>he took care to take them all away

The sense is essentially the same, but what one is it?

[Anonymous No.11938876]

>>11938829
I've finally bought LLPSI and love the book but haven't had the time to really get into it.

[Anonymous No.11938908]

>>11938829
I forgot to link to where you can get William Most's books for free (they're public domain)
https://cerclelatin.org/wiki/Most_version_anglaise/first-year
There's a bay of ocean criminals where you can find a pack with most of the LLPSI material in it, I recommend backing Familia Romana with your money though. I will say - not to encourage anything - that they didn't include an index with Roma Aeterna, instead seperating it out into a seperate book. RA itself is a nice hardcover though, with nice thick pages.

[Anonymous No.11938925]

>>11938863
Future passive participles and gerundive are the same thing, gerunds have 2nd declension endings. I would use first translation because it conveys the future of the the taking away action.

[Anonymous No.11938941]

>>11938908
I had originally downloaded the book from a less than kosher place, but it was so good I bit the $40 bullet to get a physical copy.

[Anonymous No.11938956]

>>11937992
you faggots may enjoy this dual text of the aeneid
https://ia800200.us.archive.org/24/items/virgilsneidboo00virg/virgilsneidboo00virg.pdf

it's not a translation but rather a literal transcript of the latin words written underneath

[Anonymous No.11938985]

Aforementioned Classics PhD here. I also have spent my summers for the last 4 years doing "natural method" Latin courses, first as a student then a teacher. Earlier I stressed that your work ethic matters more than your textbook, but I'll expand here.
>>11938821
This is, for the most part, all really good information. (Although everyone I know that does Latin long enough gets to exactly the reading level this poster seems to think is impossible. Not sure why he's being so aggressive.) The Lingua Latina series is a wonder of a textbook especially with the auxiliary texts that can cover grammar & more exercises.

My personal suggestion (9 years in the field + education classes) would be start with a traditional first year boring old grammar translation book for 3ish months depending on your pace and then jump into mass comprehensible input with things like Orberg. That would be exhaustive ground covered, and still fun. I hesitate to recommend starring with Orberg because a lot of students feel ungrounded and never find their footing, so to speak, without basic explanations of grammatical differences-- especially if they have poor English grammar instruction and don't know any other languages.

>>11938838
For what kind of student? How good at Latin/ what interests, etc.

>>11938863
Curo does not take an ablative, and you don't have any ablatives there. Neuter plural accusatives. 1st translation expresses the grammar more explicitly, second is more comprehensible English. I'd write: "he made sure they were all taken away" or something similar, depending on context.

For other students, some good online resources:
whitakers words (beginner dictionary and parser)
perseus tufts (most of the canon + translations + dictionary)
philolog.us (Greek and Latin dictionaries, better interface)
Dickinson college commentaries (incredible resource: commentaries, word lists, vocab charts, all of Allen and greenhough)
packhard humanities institute (whole canon digitized)
SPQR app ($5, but good dictionary and texts)
And of course, old Loeb's (bilingual texts) are very easy to find. Downloebables has all the public domain ones

[Anonymous No.11939002]

>>11938985
>For what kind of student? How good at Latin/ what interests, etc.
An absolute beginner but whose native tongue is Spanish.

[Anonymous No.11939017]

>>11938709
>I teach Latin to undergrads, so let me know if you have any questions (Classics phd)
This makes me happy. Please keep browsing /lit/, people like you are the light that keep this place alive

[Anonymous No.11939024]

>>11938829
>Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata Pars I:
this is fucking based, does this exist for other languages?

[Anonymous No.11939029]

>>11938003
Why do people obsess over this?

[Anonymous No.11939038]

>>11938813
pronounce it with a V if you want. Latin naturally evolved that way so it's just a preference. Just don't used English vowels that's disgusting.

[Anonymous No.11939061]

>>11939029
Because the V sounds cool the W doesn't.

[Anonymous No.11939074]

>>11939061
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Anonymous No.11939075]

>>11939061
Imo Salvete sounds better with a W than a V sound.

[Anonymous No.11939078]

>>11937992
You obviously didn't have it in high school or you wouldn't be saying nonsense like this.

[Anonymous No.11939084]

>>11939075
>>11939061
This. Depends on the words imo. The Caesarian formula maybe is better with V but other words I find the opposite.

[Anonymous No.11939097]

>>11939084
I just try to speak it with some semblance of consistency as my my latin is very poor.

[Anonymous No.11939102]

Be honest: apart from a career in Classics or Archaeology, why do you guys do it? Just for the fun of it? If so, then what do you read? Do you just want to read Cicero and Caesar in the original Latin to better appreciate it?

[Anonymous No.11939103]

>>11938821
>>11938829
Latin revival when?

[Anonymous No.11939113]

>>11939102
I want to use it to read classical works in their original languages even though I'm not even going into classics for my career.

[Anonymous No.11939121]

>>11939113
What kind of classic works? Like philosophy, or history?

[Anonymous No.11939137]

>>11939121
I'd like to start with histories such as the works of Caesar but also some Cicero as I've studied a number of his works in English but not Latin.

[Anonymous No.11939139]

>>11939137
Cool. I wish you luck in your hobby

[Anonymous No.11939142]

>>11939139
Thanks. I'll need lots of time for it but have very little now since I'm finishing up my undergrad this year.

[Anonymous No.11939157]

>>11939142
What are you studying?

For me I'd want to read Aurelius, since I have three different translations of Meditations and each one has completely different tones and meanings. To try and come up with my own interpretation from the original would be a pretty neat experience, I think. Something I'd like to do while at a cottage or something, with no distractions

[Anonymous No.11939162]

>>11939157
I'm pursuing a Bachelor of Arts in History and Classics. Hoping to get into law school after.

[Anonymous No.11939169]

>>11939162
>Hoping to get into law school after
Dont do it.

[Anonymous No.11939172]

>>11939162
I've heard Philosophy grads do really well in law school

[Anonymous No.11939181]

>>11938985
>Not sure why he's being so aggressive.
Because I wasted several years with the crap methods, which I was actually very good at, I was the best in my class. I remember my latin teacher said that latin grades correlate strongly with maths grades - she was right, so being good at maths and seeing no utility in playing the linguistic sudoku game and making translations of things that have already been translated I forgot about latin and became a STEMlord, wasting even more of my life.
>>11939024
AFAIK there are some from the 19th century but nothing on the level of LLPSI. I would love to be proven wrong on this score. I know there is one for italian called L'Italiano Secondo il Metodo Natura, but I can't review it.
>>11939102
>>11939157
The latin literary corpus is probably the greatest in the world, the vast majority of post-classical latin can ONLY be read in latin, there are no translations available - hell a lot of it isn't even digitised.
And sorry bro but Marcus Aurelius wrote the meditations in Greek. His letters to fronto are (mostly?) in latin though.

[Anonymous No.11939187]

>>11938003
It wasn't necessarily exactly like the W of American English. It could have been a less noticeable kind of W.

[Anonymous No.11939204]

>>11939181
so what do you do now if you're in STEM

[Anonymous No.11939218]

>>11939181
IIRC the aristocracy of the Romans used Greek a lot as a differentiator between themselves and common people who spoke only Latin. Is that true?

[Anonymous No.11939225]

>>11939218
Greek was more or less the English of back then.

[Anonymous No.11939230]

>>11939225
What exactly does that mean?

[Anonymous No.11939236]

>>11939225
>>11939230
the term you're looking for is "lingua franca" and that was only true in the Eastern provinces.

[Anonymous No.11939244]

>>11939218
it was a differentiator because patricians could afford well-educated Greek slaves to teach their sons everything, and part of that required learning Greek to read philosophy and other shit. It might have become a status-symbol later I don't know

[Anonymous No.11939249]

have fun learning Latin and then finding out everything worth reading is in Greek

[Anonymous No.11939260]

>>11939204
Software dev
>>11939218
I know enough to know that the relationship between the Roman aristocracy and the Greek language is too complicated for me to answer. When's the PhD guy coming back?

[Anonymous No.11939265]

id like to learn latin, but also ancient greek as well. which one would be better to learn first?

[Anonymous No.11939266]

>>11937992
Lingua latina per se illustrata is the best textbook for teaching yourself Latin.
And it's available for free online, even though I recommend getting the paper version: https://chaharrah.tv/chaharrah-depot/arthouse/latin-attachments/latin-book.pdf (I have no idea why the entire book is available for free on some weird Arabic website with a Tuvalu domain. I found it by googling "lingua latina per se illustrata pdf")

[Anonymous No.11939268]

>>11939103
Sadly, I don't see this happening unless you get a bunch of autists together and have them resurrect Roman polytheism. The Catholic Church only translates things into Latin out of tradition (One Francis is championing abandoning) and uses Italian and English for all matters of communication, and there's no reason for academia or the business world to do it.

Remember, it's only LARPing because some virgin on the internet is mad that you're having fun and he's not.

[Anonymous No.11939275]

>>11939268
There's no reason one needs to be a polytheist to appreciate Roman and post-Roman Latin culture.

[Anonymous No.11939277]

>>11939265
Latin shares more vocabulary with Greek. Greek grammar is more complex and while I'm sure you could find an example of the opposite being the case most people find Greek grammar to be the harder of the two.

[Anonymous No.11939285]

>>11939275
Certainly not, but you're not going to "revive" (which is a silly term because it frankly never died) Latin unless you get a dedicated group of people who have an excuse to use it.

Sadly to say, I highly doubt reading Cicero and Ovid can be made cool in The Current Year.

[Anonymous No.11939295]

>>11939277
greek grammar is fucking weird

[Anonymous No.11939301]

>>11939285
I'm envisioning more of the situation pre-19th century where educated people at least the West used it as a language of international academia and culture not a revival of the Roman empire.

[Anonymous No.11939309]

>>11939285
this post reminds of this mencius moldbug blogpost where he embarrasses himself(redundant when talking about Moldbug)

https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2013/11/mr-jones-is-rather-concerned/

[Anonymous No.11939311]

>>11939285
>Sadly to say, I highly doubt reading Cicero and Ovid can be made cool in The Current Year.
I'd be satisfied with growing the sub-culture of people who use it as a serious hobby. Language in general is an ennobling pursuit and I wish more people were into it.

[Anonymous No.11939312]

>>11939265
I tried learning Greek and it really kicked my arse. I think I'm too much of a brainlet to learn it. Latin has been much easier for me in comparison.

[Anonymous No.11939313]

>>11938003
hahah woooow now Roman sounds like Chinese to me

[Anonymous No.11939330]

>>11939312
What was hard about it? With Greek you have to start by ramming the new alphabet into your head like when you were a kid. you'll never learn it transliterating in your head.

[Anonymous No.11939335]

>>11939312
same with me. After about a month i finally had this 'oh' moment about how the grammar works but then I abandoned it because life became hectic for a while

[Anonymous No.11939336]

>not reading the height of Latin literature

[Anonymous No.11939345]

>>11939336
>not Hobbitus Ille

[Anonymous No.11939346]

>desire to have gf returns
When will I be free from this

[Anonymous No.11939352]

>>11939346
Only when you cut off your penis
(don't do this)

[Anonymous No.11939403]

>>11939024
there is for: english, french and italian. there's one for german but it has that messed up gothic font

[Anonymous No.11939413]

>>11939403
names are

english by the nature method
le français par la methode nature
l'italiano secondo il metodo natura

[Anonymous No.11939422]

i'm teaching myself attic greek and eventually koine through athenaze. it is somewhat close to orber's natural method. (specially the italian edition altho i'm using the american one)

[Anonymous No.11939446]

>>11939422
athenaze is okay, but if you want to see what athenaze should have been, check out the original italian publication of it- it's much closer to orberg's. i'm not sure why the english athenaze had to be so stripped down. i find it effective to supplement athenaze with reading greek and Hansen & Quinn.

[Anonymous No.11939460]

>>11939413
>>11939403
Hows this nature method different from other?

[Anonymous No.11939472]

>>11939446
thanks. i thought the american edition was the original and the italian added things (i have it in pdf. it presents way more vocab)

>>11939460
the method relies on immersion through direct contact with a text that gets more complex as you advance. no translation, only the foreign language and some pictures for assimilation

[Anonymous No.11939531]

>>11939472
Sounds cool. I will get the Italian one since I want to read The Comedy some time.

[Anonymous No.11939761]

>>11939002
If you're an absolute beginner, poetry may be more frustrating than fun. Start with easy prose, give yourself some time. Usually, Catullus or Virgil will be the first poetry that young Latin students read.

>>11939017
I browsed regularly until /pol/ started getting popular a few years back. Got sick of anon for a while and check sporadically on /clas/ generals but mainly stay away.

>>11939102
I learned because I love literature and wanted to be able to read the things my favorite authors loved. It's a job now, I guess, but I'm not trying to be an academic.

>>11939103
It's kinda happening. Look up things like Paideia institute in Rome, and U of Kentucky's famous spoken Latin program. There is a huge push for more natural teaching methods and Latin learning.

>>11939157
(sorry to burst your bubble but Aurelius wrote in Greek)

>>11939181
>wasted several years...
Fair mate, I feel that. I think in an ideal world, Orberg would be required summer reading after first year Latin because it helps bridge the gap between translating and reading that seems difficult for students like you. Glad you are finding things that work.

>>11939218
Tldr, it's complicated, but yeah just about any aristocrat Roman (depending on the time period and place) knew Greek. Status symbols change over time tho (e.g. Nero and Hadrian were laughed at for liking Greek too much (but they were generally looked down on by senators who were writing the histories, so)). The earliest Latin lit (Livius Andronicus) was a translation of the Odyssey meant to help him teach his students Greek, and Plautus, a wildly popular early playwright, frequently made bilingual jokes for a broad, popular audience. So not a super stark status marker, but am extant distinguisher.

>>11939249
lol

>>11939265
doesn't matter if you work hard. Greek has fewer helpful tools for the autodidact tho.

>>11939352
catullus 63

>>11939285
>Cicero and Ovid
>uncool
fucking plebs

[Anonymous No.11939847]

>>11939761
You sound like a really cool guy. What are some of your favorite books or authors in general?

[Anonymous No.11939924]

>>11939847
Thanks mate. Faulkner got me into reading in high school, Borges and Calvino made /lit/ the driving force of my life in college. I got into classics after reading a translation of the Oresteia and Bacchae. Can give specific recs if you have more specific wants

[Anonymous No.11939961]

>>11938956
This is really neat, thanks friend. Even when I dont speak the original languge, I get a kick out of dueling language translations that let me mime out the original.

[Anonymous No.11940027]

>>11938003
Use ecclesial latin.
It's the only spoken form that is correct. Speculating and speaking on that speculation is LARPIng.

[Anonymous No.11940406]

>>11939103
There is a lot going on already. If you know Latin grammar now an easy first step you can take is to go to one of the University of Kentucky's summer Latin conventicula. They are weeklong seminars aimed at beginner-intermediate speakers of Latin. There is one in Carlisle, PA (conventiculum Dickinsoniense) and one in Lexington, KY (conventiculum Lexingtoniense). I went to the Carlisle one a couple years back and it was a great experience.

If you don't want to travel, the Paidea Institute offers e-courses that are run each semester on their Web site also.

>>11939169
Why?

>>11939345
I know this is a meme but the translation of Hobbitus Ille is actually quite poor.

>>11939413
>>11939403
What is the German one?

>>11939924
Any favorite neo-Latin authors? Have you read Berard's Capti?

>>11940027
Based and redpilled, this is the correct answer. Maybe reconstructed for reading a quote from a classical text but ecclesiastical is far preferable for producing one's own speech.

[Anonymous No.11941048]

>>11940027
Only if you still get the long and short vowels right.

[Anonymous No.11941134]

Can anyone recommend some books on how to start reading/learning latin for beginners?

[Anonymous No.11941195]

>>11940406
https://archive.org/search.php?query=natürlichen%20Methode

[Anonymous No.11941199]

>>11940406
>>11941195
get the Deutsches Buch nach der Natürlichen Methode für Schule und Haus, Book 1.

not the

Leitfaden zum Erlernen der deutschen Sprache nach der natürlichen Methode

[Anonymous No.11941227]

>>11941199
There's also Studien und Plaudereien but it's incredibly boring and not on the same level as the Latin one.

[Anonymous No.11941288]

>>11941199
Oh fuck me, this scan is unreadable. Is there a version in a sane font or one written within the last hundred years?

[Anonymous No.11941333]

>>11938742
Kinda sounds German like.

[Anonymous No.11941386]

>>11941333
>this triggers the Italiano

[Anonymous No.11941396]

>>11939103
But hopefuly only as an academic language
https://youtu.be/_OyhWKTmJBo?t=450

[Anonymous No.11941417]

>>11938821
>>11938829
>>11938985

Any books on how to correctly pronounce the words, vowels and general latin pronunciation rules?

[Anonymous No.11941464]

anas meus magnus est
teehee ;)

[Anonymous No.11941477]

>>11941288
not that I know. Have fun getting used to that Gothic font though

[Anonymous No.11941487]

>>11941417
Use Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation. Everything else is basically a modern convention on what Latin "probably" sounded like, and there are many disagreements. As earlier posts have said and backed >>11940027 >>11940406 >>11941048
Ecclesiastical Latin sounds the best and is the one variant of Latin still commonly spoken (mostly for prayer/religious function but it is still spoken nonetheless). It also sounds the best in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.11941504]

>>11938650
is that a good or a bad feel?

[Anonymous No.11941535]

>>11941487
Isn't ecclesiastical latin completely made up in like modern times, and mostly based on italian language pronunciation ?

[Anonymous No.11941560]

>>11941535
After Latin turned into a literary language, it was pronounced in whatever manner people spoke their own native language. French people pronounced it like French, English people pronounced it like English, Italian people pronounced it like Italian, etc. The """ecclesiastical""" pronunciation is simply the Italian pronunciation, which gained prominence over other pronunciations due to ultramontanism after Vatican I.

[Anonymous No.11941575]

>>11941560
That's the thing tho, if everyone pronounces is in their own version, what is the true and objective version to pronounce it? i.e how the romans originally pronounced it

[Anonymous No.11941581]

>>11941535
>ecclesiastical Latin completely made up in like modern times
If by modern, you mean the past 1000 years, yes.

[Anonymous No.11941599]

>>11941575
Romans spoke latin for at least a thousand years, there is no "original". Look how english has changed in the last 500

[Anonymous No.11941604]

>>11941575
>what is the true and objective version to pronounce it?
None of them. If you're reading a medieval writer they wouldn't have known the Roman pronunciation, so reading them with that pronunciation is just as inauthentic as reading Cicero with an Italian pronunciation. It doesn't actually matter and you should just use whichever you find more comfortable. The reconstructed classical pronunciation is only useful if you want to read classical poetry in meter anyway. Whether that's worth the added difficulty or even relevant to you at all is your own decision.

[Anonymous No.11941613]

>>11941604
Right, so what is the pronunciation rules in most latin learning school books then?

[Anonymous No.11941622]

>>11941604
The reconstructed classical pronunciation. However, I don't think this pronunciation, as commonly taught, is actually intended to teach students to read Latin well, but rather to serve some archeological purpose and get them ready for specialist linguistic studies which they probably will never pursue. For example any Latin textbook will tell you to memorize the hidden quantity of vowels. If you don't know what that is, a Latin vowel can be long or short; likewise a syllable can be long or short. A syllable is long if it contains a long vowel or ends in a consonant (when the next syllable begins with a consonant). A vowel has hidden quantity when it is a long vowel in a syllable that ends with a consonant, meaning that the syllable is long both from the vowel and from the consonant. What does this mean practically? Well, nothing, because you will know that the syllable is long simply from the consonant ending. Whether the vowel is long or short has no practical value metrically (which is the reason you're even worrying about this), so why do you need to memorize it? Dictionaries don't even mark hidden quantity because you normally can't tell if it exists since it is metrically invisible. But your textbook will tell you to memorize it. What a joke.

[Anonymous No.11941627]

>>11941622
meant for >>11941613

[Anonymous No.11941665]

>>11941613
>>11941622
Also your textbook will probably instruct you to make sure you're getting the pronunciation right between say, the 1st decl. nom. sing. and the 1st decl. abl. sing. ending, which is short a, and long a, respectively. In your textbook the long a will be marked with a macron so you will know it's long. Your textbook will tell you getting this pronunciation right is important so that you can know the difference when reading. But when you read an actual Latin text, there will be no macrons, and thus the endings will look exactly the same, so your distinction in pronunciation won't help you distinguish between them at all. The only use for the distinction is in metrical scansion, which you couldn't figure out simply by looking at the orthography.

[Anonymous No.11941688]

Pronunciation is literally the dullest possible topic about an ancient language. It takes like one day to learn classical and another to learn ecclesiastical so just do both. This thread will literally be alive for longer than it would take you to learn how to pronounce Latin in any fucking way you want

[Anonymous No.11941697]

>>11941688
>It takes like one day to learn classical
This is dishonest as using the classical pronunciation requires knowing the quantity of every vowel, which will not be marked in anything other than a beginner textbook.

[Anonymous No.11941826]

Don't learn classical all the way if you don't want to suffer. You'll be annoyed by the vowel length never being marked, and that for no reason other than Latin spelling being standardized after the vowel system collapsed. That said, >>11941396 to my ears sounds pretty darn ecclesiastical, yet I hear long and short vowels in his speech distributed correctly. It's why he sounds so pleasant to pretty much anyone. The rhythm is authentic.

Another reason why you'll suffer is because no one even knows what you should do with elision, or even (especially) the final -m, but I won't be opening that can of worms now anymore than I already have.

[Anonymous No.11941829]

>>11941688
Word

[Anonymous No.11942234]

>>11941697
Day to learn, longer to master-- like chess. I wouldn't say you don't know how to play chess if you don't know every famous opening

[Anonymous No.11942305]

>>11937992
Do it. Carpe diem. Ex nihilo nihil fit. Etc.

[Anonymous No.11942307]

Sorry goyim, but latin is woke now.
Mark Zuckerberg's sister is leading us to a brighter future where latin can be free of wh*te m*n.
https://www.thenation.com/article/how-latin-got-woke/

[Anonymous No.11942313]

we should have a discord for group readings in latin desu

[Anonymous No.11942328]

>>11937992
>tfw reading the Marriage of Philology and Mercury in Latin and not even sure why

[Anonymous No.11942334]

>>11942307

[Anonymous No.11942394]

>>11942234
Your comparison is ridiculous. You either know how to pronounce the words you're reading correctly or you don't. Just learning the phonetic values is meaningless because that doesn't enable you to pronounce any words since you have to know the vowel quantities to know which phonetic values to apply.

[Anonymous No.11942421]

>>11942394
But any beginning text will have macrons.
Not like a complete beginner is going to go crack open de bello gallico on day one

[Anonymous No.11942435]

>>11942421
Yes, and you have to memorize all of them. With other pronunciations it is only necessary to know quantity insofar as it determines which syllable is stressed, meaning you generally only have to know the quantity of penultimate open vowels. The difficulty level is not the same at all.

[Anonymous No.11942521]

>>11941195
>>11941199
Danke

>>11941417
If you want reconstructed, Vox Latina is the classic work on it.

>>11941535
In its present form yes, but certain features (/w/->/v/, /ae/ & /oe/->/ē/) were developing by Augustan times.

>>11942307
Yeah her "publication" Eidolon is infuriatingly bad.

[Anonymous No.11942523]

>>11942313
I know it's (((Reddit))) but a couple guys on the r/latin Discord do just that.

[Anonymous No.11942535]

>>11937992
What are the best study books? I really don’t care a ton about modern languages but I for sure want to learn Latin and the various forms of Ancient Greek. How do I get started?

[Anonymous No.11942564]

>>11942535
literally read the thread

[Anonymous No.11942568]

>>11939024
>>11939181
I'm reading Worman's First French Book by the natural method, halfway through (it is very short, 89 pages) and I'm finding it excellent, though I haven't read LLPSI to be able to compare. Prior to start reading this book I did 5 units of duolingo and still I was able to understand everything in the book so far and the reading flow was excellent (take this with a grain of salt since I'm native portuguese speaker and fluent in italian, an english or german speaker will have a different experience reading it, obviously).
I am confident that this book is enough for one to be able to read french newspapers with a dictionary by the side and some patience.
I have the pdf both for this one in french and also other in italian, though I didn't read it. I can post when I get home if anyone wants i

[Anonymous No.11942607]

>>11942568
I really wish this existed for Ancient Greek, Arabic, Mandarin, Sanskrit- any of the really important languages

[Anonymous No.11943382]

I would like to read Latin as soon as possible. People say it takes several years to learn it, but isn't it possible to learn it in a shorter period if you study it intensly?

[Anonymous No.11943406]

>>11943382
follow the anon's advice itt and get the Lingua Latina. It's really good. I have Wheelock's and it helped me learn the basics of the language but this Lingua Latina thing is like an entirely different sort of experience

[Anonymous No.11943426]

>>11943382
Look at an FSI chart for language learning time. Latin isn't on it but it gives you an idea of how much time you need to invest. If you're dead serious and you are willing to study for 8+ hours a day, you can learn it in less than six months. This is a feat but if you have time, then do it. The biggest road block to autodidactic study is the sexual instinct which firstly distracts if not tamed, and secondly if acted upon, drains motivation. If you want the resolute focus needed to achieve this task, consider temporarily practicing celibacy. Mentally and physically. People view it as impossible because they've never removed the stimuli and thoughts that give rise to sex acts that broke their abstinence. You'll notice the sex drive will decrease and your mind will be filled with what you are studying rather than intruded with base thoughts which, by their very nature, turn off neurotransmission in the prefrontal cortex. Stimulants and nicotine also are of use for this task. Develop a solid sleep schedule and a lot those 8 hours wisely. Invest in an ergonomic setup and keep the ambient temperature low. You can do this.

[Anonymous No.11943919]

>>11943426
...does reading Latin get you horny?

[Anonymous No.11943935]

>>11943919
No. Habitual pornography habit gives rise to arousal throughout the day, which the moment it ensues, disrupts the flow states that are crucial to productivity.

[Anonymous No.11944492]

>>11941134
Read the thread

[Anonymous No.11944512]

>>11942307
>take it back
And what, give it make to European and Mediterranean men?

[Anonymous No.11944870]

>>11939268
>The Catholic Church only translates things into Latin
It's the opposite actually, important church documents, decrees, liturgical documents and books, etc. are written in Latin then translated into other languages.

[Anonymous No.11944887]

>>11940406
Haven't read any neo Latin really (unless you count late antique/ medieval stuff) Any recs?

And I guess I'm (PhD classical philology) back, so shoot if you've got questions

[Anonymous No.11945085]

I have a book called "Latin for Secondary Schools" by Hamilton and Carlisle. Anyone familiar with it? I got it for free.

[Anonymous No.11945167]

>>11944887
I would recommend the book I mentioned. It's a magical realism novel written in Latin. It's also a Menippean satire so you get to read both prose and verse. Interestingly enough it would actually probably be well liked on /lit/ if people could read it; it's pretty similar to Pynchon and Marquez.

Otherwise the Web site Ephemiris publishes news articles in Latin which are good reading practice. So far as other literary works go, Erasmus is a classic. If you're American you may enjoy Glass' Vita Georgii Washingtonii. It's a little older but Milton's Latin poems are also good.

[Anonymous No.11945918]

Greatest thread on /lit/ in a long time, thanks dudes. Im planning on buying Lingua Latina now

[Anonymous No.11946201]

>>11943426
good advice
thanks

[Anonymous No.11946246]

>can give me a quick rundown on pic related? looks interesting

[Anonymous No.11946810]

>>11946246
It's cool conceptually but relies on the ineffective grammar/translation method. I wouldn't use it as a primary text but once one gets good enough it could be a fun intermediate/transition text.

[Anonymous No.11946850]

>>11938003
that's just an agreement, people who spoke latin used to speak V and U but they only wrote V, so we can't know for sure which word was with V sound or U sound, that's why everyone agrees to always use U when speaking latin. it's a modern aproach.
latin is also very incosistent because had so many variations that we can say exactly how to speak latin, so many variations that leads us to a bunch of latin derived languages. speaking/writing proper latin was for the elites, normal people used to speak in minor dialects.
this "one country, one language" is more of an modern aproach, things were more grey back then

i'm a portuguese speaker, so for example
VOCAT - we spell with W/U, but one of the evolution of this word "vocação" is spelled with V

VVLPIS - we spell with two WW/UU, but the modern word is "vulpes" with a V then an U

latin also has many "eras" that have different way of writing and spelling on its own (before evolving to our "modern" languages)

so we can have an idea how they spoke in the past but latin has evolved and is used around the globe for a bunch of things, specially biology, so we all agree how can everyone in world should speak that "dead" language (isn't dead bc pt, fr, esp, etc are all latin but evolved)

[Anonymous No.11946851]

>>11938068
btfo

[Anonymous No.11946872]

>>11946850
we can't say*
a modern*
also had*
that had*
fuck, i'm sleepy
plus: it's easier to speak U than V for most people with different native languages
latin also didn't had J when writting, for example: IESVS (jesus)
IVPPITER (jupiter)
we don't speak J either

[Anonymous No.11946964]

>>11937992
Latin is worthless for anyone who isn't either a paid historian or archaeologist, but do what you want.

[Anonymous No.11947038]

>>11946964

[Anonymous No.11947048]

Sort of off-topic, but has anybody tried using an e-reader type device to read scans of old books that are available on archiv.org for instance (https://archive.org/details/platonisoperaqua01plat/page/4)?
You'd definitely need something capable of displaying pdfs properly so maybe onyx boox or sony's dp. I'm typically not much for e-readers, but the amount of scanned books is huge and they don't get reprinted obv.

[Anonymous No.11947066]

>>11947048
Yes, next time we have one of these threads when I'm back home, I'll show you a few pictures of a PDF rendered on a large format e-ink device. They and DJVU files even display well.
Dual page scans are a problem sometimes but there are programs that split them up.

[Anonymous No.11947070]

>>11947066
That'd be great, thanks.

[Anonymous No.11947165]

>>11939103

Well, it could be revived as a tool of communication for the intelligent people. Just imagine:
Places to meet and talk to interesting people about interesting stuff without some plebs ruining it. Simply because plebs never learn a new language if its not forced upon them.

[Anonymous No.11947177]

>>11947165
Salve, amice. Quid de problemate proletario censes?

[Anonymous No.11947384]

>>11946964
Reading literature is worthless for anyone who isn't either a paid teacher or bookseller, but blow it out your ass if you want

[Anonymous No.11947531]

>>11947177
Salve. Mors centa. Hora incenta.

[Anonymous No.11948052]

>>11947531
>centa
Eheu, proletarius adest

[Anonymous No.11948345]

>>11946850
We're sure about v/u because of poetry. Classical Latin aims to reconstruct the speech of Palatine Hill during the first century BC as probably spoken by Caesar and Cicero and disregards contemporary dialects and affectations of other times. There's a lot that's basically almost made up in reconstructions of Classical Latin, and then people inevitably do make stuff up when they speak it both because the theory is defective and because they can't pronounce it correctly (i.e. they have an accent) or even outright ignore parts of the theory, but v/u is one of the least made-up parts of it.

Here I have to say ecclesiastical is nice because it draws on modern Italian entirely, and in that sense it's a perfect system, because it is simply enough to copy an Italian using it. I do not recommend copying Spanish speakers, though. They tend to merge B/V without noticing.

[Anonymous No.11948602]

It's not fair, bros.

[Anonymous No.11948667]

>>11948602
Nothing is fair. That's why it's up /lit/ to seize power one day and effectuate a national and then global language shift to Latin.

[Anonymous No.11948719]

>>11948602
What is not fair?

[Anonymous No.11948724]

>>11948719
I don't know. I was just reading the thread and got a compulsion to post that.

[Anonymous No.11949101]

>>11938821
>the ultimate answer truly is that the field of classics got memed on by G*rmans in the 19th century and never recovered.

can you expand on this?

[Anonymous No.11949113]

I read my first paragraph completely left to right without any subject/verb/object searching today (Cicero)

[Anonymous No.11949379]

>>11949113
Scító esse hunc hominem posse discere latíné.

(Semper apicibus ad notandam longitúdinem útor et omnibus suádeó)

[Anonymous No.11949387]

I wish we had a group that studied Latin led by someone fluent

[Anonymous No.11949415]

>>11949379
Oh, why did I use "esse" there. Please do not laugh at me. I'll get there.

[Anonymous No.11949455]

>>11949379
Iam apicibus non utor, sed illi facilior ligere faciunt

[Anonymous No.11949493]

>>11938671
coorect

[Anonymous No.11949702]

>>11949455
You have just two mistakes:

*facilius (it needs to be neuter, and it takes the accusative in that grammar, so it can't be "facilior" for two reasons)
*legere

[Anonymous No.11949826]

>>11949702
Right, I thought it should agree with apex (m) but I see that's wrong now.
I almost never write Latin, it's definitely a place I need more work on. It's harder to get feedback on. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.11949930]

>>11949826
/Latina popula/ nostro habenda est ut latina scribere exerceamus

[Anonymous No.11949931]

>>11949826
That'd be "faciliores" because you'd be really making it agree with "apices" (de-inflected from apicibus) rather than the singular "apex" nowhere to be seen, but the structure would be different. I'm honestly not sure if you can call the apices themselves easier instead of the act of reading and still have it translate into English as "they make reading easier". "Faciliórés sunt lectú" or something to that effect would be just "they [apices] are easier to read". Perhaps someone with more knowledge of actual Latin and not mostly its grammar could craft some wordplay.

[Anonymous No.11949933]

>>11949930
You don't know Latin. Go back to speaking Spanish.

[Anonymous No.11949940]

>>11949931
I actually just forgot felicior declined at all. I haven't seen any other form in quite a while.

[Anonymous No.11949952]

>>11949940
It's just like any other 3rd declension -or/-us comparative, so you remember it by analogy.

[Anonymous No.11949958]

>>11949933
Amice! Cur es tam iratum

[Anonymous No.11949960]

>>11942607
The Athenaze series is similar for Ancient Greek. It is Natural Methof, but it’s not entirely in Greek. You can find PDFs online pretty easily.

[Anonymous No.11949974]

>>11949958
Irascor quia homo sum, haud neutrius generis!

[Anonymous No.11949995]

>>11949974
Sed MMXVIII est, es quidquid esse vis

[Anonymous No.11950038]

>>11949995
Est annus MMDCCLXXI ab Urbe condita rectissime, sed sicut dicas, talem libertatem certe nunc habemus. Bene, vivamus nos in pace.

[Anonymous No.11950044]

>>11937992

[Anonymous No.11950358]

>tfw fell for the STEM meme
>Could have learned a language for free in highschool but didnt dedicate myself to it
>Tfw no classical or literary education
>Now working a job I hate

It really isn't fair

[Anonymous No.11950412]

>>11941199
based sutterlin script

[Anonymous No.11951002]

>>11938003
no they are "U"s
ueni uidi uici
which if you tried to read it in "modern english" or have a child read it they would say it how it was said at the inception of the alphabet before regional shit changes how people pronounce written word.

there were no v sounds and no "w sounds" w is a medieval germanic adaptation of the latin alphabet.

>>11950038
>>11949995
>>11949974
vack to reddit you fucking NPCs, composing latin is for retards making tatoos and vatican officials

[Anonymous No.11951099]

>>11948345
I see, nice, thanks!

[Anonymous No.11951140]

>>11951099
Highly recommend listening to this guy, many times, over months. The manner in which the speech is delivered is worthy of a classical Roman oration, imo.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=_OyhWKTmJBo

[Anonymous No.11951158]

>>11951140
It sounds so majestic.

[Anonymous No.11951198]

Hey everybody, if anyone knows Biblical Hebrew I would love to hear what the best self-teaching books and resources are. I saw people talking about ancient Greek so I figured it would be OK to ask this here, apologies if it's not.

Pic unrelated.

[Anonymous No.11951299]

>>11942307
How would one go about fixing this problem?

[Anonymous No.11951309]

>>11951299
you will do nothing as you always do

[Anonymous No.11951320]

>>11950358
I was gonna do that
But I just wanted to study the humanities, do what I enjoy. (Hopefully) be fulfilled.
And if I end up in a horrible place and hate my life due to it, then I know it was the best I could've done and then I'll just kill myself

[Anonymous No.11951330]

>>11951320
Are you me? What are you majoring in

[Anonymous No.11951567]

Salve, brothers. There is nothing quite like waking in the very early hours before dawn to study Latin.

[Anonymous No.11951572]

>>11951567
Then you must study it indeed, friend. For it is salvete, not salve.

Salve -> tu
Salvete -> vos

[Anonymous No.11951910]

>>11939024
Poco a Loco for spanish

[Anonymous No.11953355]

>>11951910
Do you have the pdf/ebook? I couldn't find anything.

[Anonymous No.11953445]

I just started. How come different words end with -um, -us and -a? Is it gender? I downloaded Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata Pars, so there are no explanations.

[Anonymous No.11953456]

>>11953445
Yes gender. Neuter, masculine and feminine respectively

[Anonymous No.11953463]

>>11953456
So from what I can see, cities are neuter, but countries and islands seem to be feminine. Is this a rule or were these locations specifically chosen to fit a single gender?

[Anonymous No.11953464]

I've been boning up on my Latin in order to test out of it as a requirement to get my Master's degree. I've ultimately decided that the only way I'm going to learn all the vocabulary is to review every single chapter's vocab list every single day, at least going up to where I am in the book. It's basically brute force, but I think it's working.

[Anonymous No.11953473]

>>11953464
>ssssspt, hey key.

[Anonymous No.11953515]

>>11953463
Actually most cities countries and islands are feminine regardless of ending (declension), such as Ephesus, Ephesi, f.

[Anonymous No.11953554]

>>11953515
For example I see the sentences
>Brundisium oppidium est.
>Brundisium et Tuscunum oppida sunt.
>Sparta quoque oppidium est.
>Delphi quoque oppidium parvum est.

All the suffixes for the object and adjectives end in -um. Why is this?

[Anonymous No.11953568]

>>11948345
>>Here I have to say ecclesiastical is nice because it draws on modern Italian entirely, and in that sense it's a perfect system

That sounds biased as fuck and i can guarantee it's mostly due to political rivalry between italy and other romance countries around it

[Anonymous No.11953573]

>>11953554
The only adjective there is parvum and it is neuter (ends in -um) because it agrees with oppidum (neuter)

Oppida is the plural of oppidum (both still neuter)

[Anonymous No.11953594]

>>11953573
Oh I understand now, object and subject are going to have independent gender. It doesn't make sense for the object to conform to the subject's gender. Neither of the languages I speak have gender, so it's a new concept for me.

[Anonymous No.11953701]

>>11953445
>>11953554
>>11953594
this is why grammar books are necessary. If you're already getting lost about gender and 1st v 2nd declensions, things just get harder. Like good on you for self-teachinh, but grab a grammar book along with Orberg

>>11953464
You could use anki and download vocab decks. It's what I've done thru my masters.

[Anonymous No.11954504]

What are people's thoughts on learning Latin via Wheelock's Latin? I'm taking Latin 101 at my university and that is the text we are using.

[Anonymous No.11954520]

>>11938709
>Wenee, Weedee, Weekee.
lmao romans were retards

[Anonymous No.11954535]

>>11950358
I did German in high school but once we found out our teacher starred in a porno no more learning has had

[Anonymous No.11954558]

>>11951320
>But I just wanted to study the humanities, do what I enjoy. (Hopefully) be fulfilled.
You won't
>And if I end up in a horrible place and hate my life due to it, then I know it was the best I could've done and then I'll just kill myself
You will

There's no winning. You either lose with STEM or you lose with humanities/social sciences. I've seen so many posts regretting taking one over the other it seems hopeless to even try being happy.

[Anonymous No.11955120]

>>11937992
Do it

[Anonymous No.11955127]

>>11954558
Yeah true.
Fuck it. Just gonna go to eastern europe, spend all my money on whores and drugs then end it all

[Anonymous No.11955130]

>>11951330
Either English or International Relations

[Anonymous No.11955155]

>>11954504
That's the way to do it

[Anonymous No.11955569]

>>11955127
Nah ad Cambodiam eundum est.

[Anonymous No.11955591]

>>11955569
whats the difference between "ad" and "in Cambodiam"? beginner in Latin here but I just saw Cicero use "in prouinciam" glossed as English "to the province"

[Anonymous No.11955615]

>>11955591
ad means 'to' does it not

[Anonymous No.11955633]

>>11950358
>>11951320
>>11954558
>not just majoring in STEM, and minoring in humanities
What I wished I had done

[Anonymous No.11955636]

>>11955615
>Veniebatis igitur in Africam prouinciam...
>You came then to Africa, the province...

"ad" to me feels more "towards" or "near" from reading Caesar

[Anonymous No.11955659]

>>11955591
>>11955615
>>11955636
"In" principally means "into" when used with the accusative. It is in some contexts translated "to." "Ad" principally means "to" or "toward."

[Anonymous No.11955937]

yall need to read some wheelock i mean got damn

[Anonymous No.11956159]

>>11955937
Is Wheelock + Lingua Latina a good combo or do they clash?

[Anonymous No.11956178]

>>11956159
cop the great courses class on latin too

[Anonymous No.11956179]

>>11956159
They both contain/discuss correct Latin so they clash in nothing.

[Anonymous No.11956394]

>>11938796
I don't know about mandarin but Japanese is actually not hard either. The only hard thing is to memorise the kanji and vocabulary which differs a lot from Western European languages