/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11936152]

/lit/ is doing a huge disservice to newcomers by recommending 'starter kits' filled with cult classics from the 20th century rather than recommending classics like Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Sterne, Goethe, Tolstoy, etc.

Because what this does is gives them a completely non-linear and fragmented perspective of what literature actually is; its history, its purposes over time, how style changes and why, understanding the concept of influence and how it functions in the creation of new works, etc.

I'm tired of trying to argue incredibly simple universal points to people who, through insecurity from lack of knowledge, are choosing to be contrarian and downright dismissive of anything that challenges how they have come to approach literature.

The enjoyment of A Confederacy of Dunces, Dubliners, The Metamorphosis, Lolita, The Stranger, etc., will be greatly enhanced by knowledge of the classics, just as the authors of those books were.

Respect the process and be patient.

[Anonymous No.11936162]

isn't start with the greeks a staple /lit/ meme?

[Anonymous No.11936164]

>>11936152
>The enjoyment of A Confederacy of Dunces, Dubliners, The Metamorphosis, Lolita, The Stranger, etc., will be greatly enhanced by knowledge of the classics, just as the authors of those books were.
Yeah, because all the other shit you listed is boring as fuck in comparison.

[Anonymous No.11936165]

>>11936162
fpbp

op pls take your manufactured outrage somewhere else, preferably twitter

[Anonymous No.11936169]

>>11936164
>this is your brain on television

[Anonymous No.11936174]

>>11936152
You want newbies who haven't read before to get interested in reading, not to bore them out of their minds. I love ancient literature, Shakespeare, Russians, etc but 15 years ago when I started to take reading seriously that shit would've bored me whereas starter-kit-core was what I was reading them.

Respect the process and be patient. Let people read what's accessible, discover the classics at their own pace and revisit them when they need to (if they love reading, I'm sure they would be interested in revisiting Moby Dick after reading the greeks and the bible, etc).

[Anonymous No.11936177]

>>11936174
lol giving people free reign (just go for it man!) has worked out great for /lit/!

[Anonymous No.11936288]

>>11936177
>waahh waahh why aren't people reading what I want them to read???

Just fuck off.

[Anonymous No.11936518]

>>11936177
Neither party in this epoch-defining dispute is advocating letting people 'just go for it'. It's about whether we tell them to start with the Greeks or start with modern literature.

[Anonymous No.11936533]

>>11936152
The classics are scary for beginners
I tried to read Dante’s inferno when I first started and couldn’t understand a word of it in high school, but after 2 years of reading easier book I was able to tackle it again and find out I hate it.

[Anonymous No.11936552]

>>11936533
Yeah, Divine Comedy has to be the least convincing premodern 'classic literature' I've read. But I'm prepared to believe it was the translation's fault.

[Anonymous No.11936586]

>>11936169
>reading modern books is your brain on television
Nice one, you really described me to a TEE.

[Anonymous No.11938224]

>>11936533
If you actually read The Bible and Virgil you would understand Dante no problem

[Anonymous No.11938242]

>>11938224
Dog I was 14, the only thing I was reading before were anime subtitles. I’ll probably read Virgil but I’m never reading the Bible

[Anonymous No.11938249]

>>11938242
>animefag will never read the Bible
Woah

[Anonymous No.11938264]

>>11938249
Well I stopped watching anime, but the Bible just scares me. You see how Christ anons post with absolute praise, something that is never seen on the chans. I refuse to become one of them

[Anonymous No.11938273]

>>11938242
>taking up Dante at 14

Your fault.

[Anonymous No.11938280]

>>11938273
To be fair I was a massive fedora tipper. Now I’m a lot more humble at what I know and don’t know yet

[Anonymous No.11938287]

>>11936152
i don't want to read some dead faggots rants about philosophy. i want to read novels about doing drugs and having degenerate sex written in short blogpost-like sentences. If I need a poetry fix, I'll resort to poetry slam which is better and more updated than the """classics""" while at the same time free of all the bigoted old, white man -isms that came with all the old writers.

[Anonymous No.11938294]

>>11938280
Based Tolstoy reader. If you have any fedora tipper friend that reads just tell them to read the Russians, they'll convert real quick (their foundation most of the times lie on meme dawkins/hitchens tier arguments moralfagging arguments)

[Anonymous No.11938301]

>>11938280
>>11938294
Wait nvm thats Nietzsche Feels weird man

[Anonymous No.11938320]

>>11938301
It’s cool man. I have been reading Tolstoy’s “short” stories but his novels might be to lengthy for me right now. I’m not saying god doesn’t exist, but I’m not putting my bets on any horse in the religion race

[Anonymous No.11938323]

>>11938264
You can read the Bible without becoming an wannabe internet missionary.

[Anonymous No.11938335]

>>11938264
>You see how Christ anons post with absolute praise
With that type of zeal they hope to overcompensate for the insatiable amount of lust Jesus has planted in them while at the same time denying them a way to unlock it.

[Anonymous No.11938337]

>>11938323
True, but the amount of ass kissing it gets is jarring. I have a King James Version but fuck is that nigger a heavy book

[Anonymous No.11938348]

READ
>HESIOD
>HOMER
>PLATO
>ARISTOTLE
>SOPHOCLES
>VIRGIL
>OVID
>HORACE
>CICERO
>SENECA

THEN
>Upshanids
>GITA
>TAO DE CHINK
>SUTRAS
>AVESTA
>The Holy Bible
>THE FILTHY KORAN
>AUGUSTINE
>PHILOKALIA

>THE EDDAS
>AQUINAS
>PETRARCH
>DANTE
>CHAUCER
>MALORY
>BOETHIUS
>BOCCACCIO

THEN
>SPENSER
>SHAKESPEARE
>me
>CERVANTES
>DONNE
>MILTON
>GOETHE
>TOLATO
>UR MUM
>HHAHAHAHAHAYEUUENDKEKNBHEB DHSNWHJQKQOQKA

[Anonymous No.11938430]

>>11938348
>the filthy Quran
Fuck you

[Anonymous No.11938442]

>>11938224
Is the Bible a good starting point when it comes to reading in general?

We've all read bits and pieces at some point

[Anonymous No.11938454]

Most people here are in high school

[Anonymous No.11938466]

>>11936162
Start with the Sumerians

[Anonymous No.11938475]

>>11938320
Are you not impressed by all great Christians in history? Both apologetics and others? Imagine being part of that group anon. We're all gonna make it.

[Anonymous No.11938480]

>>11938442
Absolutely fucking not. It is good for when you have a good basis on other classics, but to jump into the Bible without being a Christian would be a fools errand. I think you would appriciate it a lot more with a solid literary foundation

[Anonymous No.11938494]

>>11938475
Maybe, but Christianity has been very weak in recent years. The art is bitching but they seem neutered these days

[Anonymous No.11938498]

>>11938466
if you aren't reading dinosaur texts dont even talk to me

[Anonymous No.11938509]

>>11938498

[Anonymous No.11938520]

>>11938494
I would argue not only Christianity but the spirit in the West in general. Nietzsche himself admitted it. I think his distaste for Christianity is legitimate in many ways but I also don't think his replacement of overman is a realistic enough concept. If you believe in cyclical time this all makes sense though

[Anonymous No.11938527]

>>11938520
The west changes its values every 100 years man.

[Anonymous No.11938615]

>>11938466
>there are people on this board who can't write in cuneiform
𒄴𒄴𒄴

[Anonymous No.11938657]

great idea, OP! To make your plan catch on, we should turn it into a quippy single sentence meme telling new readers where to start! Why don't we settle on Homer? Then we can say something like:

Begin reading with Homer or
Commence your literary journey with the Iliad or
Start with blowing it out your ass

[Anonymous No.11938994]

>>11938657
Begin with the Vedas

[Anonymous No.11939021]

>>11938348
>THE FILTHY KORAN
holy fuck based AND redpilled

[Anonymous No.11939044]

>>11936152
No you do them a disservice giving them things to read that most will not be ready for, making them burn out. Also what the hell, your list is chronologically all over the place. Tolstoy is not that important. People can always reread, and learning about anything is never a perfectly linear process. Reading the classics in a ‘canon’ is already a vast decontextualisation. People are allowed to “be of their own time”. Reading what is influenced by the classics is already the tentative beginning of an education about them and their influence.

It’s true that the best generalised “starting point”, if there is one, is the Ancient Greeks. But start with the Greeks is not a dogma. It’s not a strict requirement. It wasn’t like I read every single Greek philosopher, poet and playwright one after the other, only allowing myself to read novels after an arbitrary finish line (you never “finish” with the Greeks). And I found my knowledge and understanding of the texts I encountered increasing organically perhaps because of, rather than in spite of, the disparity of what I was reading.

Anyway where’s the Bible on your list... pagan... how can you have forgotten about that influence huh??

[Anonymous No.11939264]

>>11938494
>Maybe, but Christianity has been very weak in recent years.
Ever since protestantism taught plebs to read.

[Anonymous No.11939270]

>>11938527
Wonder what West will be like when the World War PTSD goes out of our collective unconscious.

[Anonymous No.11939284]

>>11938348
this Nigga Makin Up Names N Shitt

[Anonymous No.11939344]

>>11936152
>fragmented perspective of what literature actually is
Literature is literally just a very dated entertainment method. It isn't philosophy, it isn't history, it's like poems and fantasy and realistic fiction and shit because for some people words are cool and their affinity for them allows them to write things that other people are entertained by.

[Anonymous No.11939351]

>>11936152
Start with the greeks

[Anonymous No.11940001]

>>11938348
>BOCACCIO
>PETRARCH
Where in the fuck can I get pdfs of these books? I've looked for them everywhere, specially for De Vitae Solitarea

[Anonymous No.11940139]

>>11936152
You're doing a huge disservice to the board by being such a dick sucking cuck so do us all a favor and kill yourself

[Anonymous No.11940203]

>>11936174
this is not correct

i started with goethe, homer, and joyce on accident and it wasnt hard

im just a typical american

[Anonymous No.11940220]

>>11938242
the bible is a pretty fun read dude

[Anonymous No.11940223]

>>11938337
>>11938264
>living rent free

[Anonymous No.11940239]

>>11938242
>I’m never reading the Bible
kjv is one of the best things i have ever read even though i think christian are fags

[Anonymous No.11941194]

>>11936174
I agree in a sense. Although there should be made a case for setting people up in the right direction, it's still important not to get completely elitist in the beginning. Its the same with weightlifting, drawing, any skill or art to be honest, I am sure that guidance isn't always the best and expiriencing stuff for yourself is always good but if you need guidance, you don't want him to go fucking ham on you and tell you to only do this or that unless you want to be mediocre and bad at x or y which will mean that you can never even enjoy Z!!!
I think the process as you worded it, is very important and I don't say that you can't appreciate great work( I enjoyed the Iliad and Odysee when I was a kid) but that to take on a kind of skill, you need to start slowly and ease your way in.

[Anonymous No.11941268]

>>11938273
I took up Dante at around the same time. Didn't undetstand all of the nuances, but understood enough to enjoy it. It made me want to read Virgil, Homer and Ovid and from there i started reading more and more. Eventually rereading Inferno at a later time and understanding a lot more. If you're not a retard maybe you'd realise that it's not Inferno thats the problem, only your inferior brain. Fucking learn to apply yourself

[Anonymous No.11941361]

>>11936152
The broader understanding of literature as a distinct historical category and a textual phenomenon will come timely through a deeper personal and/or scholarly interest that prerequisites an established pretheoretical engagement and familiarity with the act of reading. People who come here for the first time and are looking for directions are usually looking to first establish a habit of reading and get into works of literary quality and canonical reputation. The reason why you recommend those people works of 20th century modernity before the works of antiquity or the Renaissance is because there is an immediate recognition and familiarity with the problems of modernity which makes it easier to get into reading modern works and enjoy it/relate what you are reading to your own experience.

[Anonymous No.11941395]

You seem knowledgeable in Literature anons
How valueable/good is this collection?
>pic related
Grandfathers library never read them.
Where do I start?

[Anonymous No.11941399]

>>11936152
imagine being this clueless

[Anonymous No.11941400]

>>11941395
2/3

[Anonymous No.11941408]

>>11941400

[Anonymous No.11941410]

Just read stuff you are interested in, imagine thinking you need a chronological order, what a bunch of phaggots desu.

[Anonymous No.11941428]

>>11938509
woah is that real

[Anonymous No.11941436]

>>11941400
Harvard classics are beautiful but and incomplete second hand set unfortunately does not go for much. Probably only 60 USD at best.

[Anonymous No.11941490]

>>11941410
this. just read whatever you want, you dont need to take it so seriously

[Anonymous No.11941514]

>>11941194
Eh, elitism weeds out shitheads who are too fixated on the opinions of others. If you get your feelings hurt by 4chan, that is 100000000000% your fault and you deserve it and should leave, permanently, and probably kys yourself as well.

[Anonymous No.11941549]

>>11941514
>you deserve it and should leave, permanently, and probably kys yourself as well.

yeah but elitism also bring in shitheads like you, teenagers who's only contribution is shitting on others

[Anonymous No.11941561]

>>11941549
Elitism becomes the rich mans poison.
Locked in a meme.

[Anonymous No.11941566]

>>11936164
stay pleb

[Anonymous No.11941572]

>>11936152
There's a larger gap of time between Tolstoy and Goethe than between Kafka and Tolstoy

[Anonymous No.11941574]

>>11941549
hang yourself

[Anonymous No.11941587]

>>11941574
thanks for proving my point, senpai :^)