/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11815680]

It seems to be a pretty commonly held belief that Nietzsche wouldn't have be a Nazi had he lived at that time given his philosophy of affirming life and rejection of the kinds of philosophy which restrict art and reject life. However, given his impulsiveness and contradictory personality, is it possible to imagine Nietzsche advocating for NatSoc in the right circumstances? After all, he and Heidegger had many shared beliefs.

[Anonymous No.11815691]

>>11815680
You are absolutely, unequivocally off-base here, you fucking retard

[Anonymous No.11815702]

>>11815691
blows my mind how anyone who is honestly familiar with fascism and national socialism as they appeared and felt in their time, and nietzsche's personality, character and impulse could just brush aside the most explicit affinities

[Anonymous No.11815717]

[Anonymous No.11815720]

He hated anti-Semitism and nationalism for being spooks but he would probably change if he saw how much good it did the people, the Overman

[Anonymous No.11815725]

He would have called them plebs

[Anonymous No.11815736]

>>11815680
idk dude ive spent a lot of time with nietzschhe and it’s the edgy, “man you just havent read nietzsche” thing to do to hust outright deny the fascist impulses in his thought thank père kaufmann’s bitch ass for that one, but desu i think you raise a valid point. i still think it can only be chocked up to a fat “maybe,” mostly because nietzsche had long since turned his back on academia by the end of his career and that lowkey plays a huge role in why someone like heidegger joined the party.

[Anonymous No.11815759]

Nietzsche hated the state and nationalism

I guess leaving no corpse unbuggered is the way of the rube

[Anonymous No.11815815]

>>11815680
Any person (non-jew) with a shred of intellect would support the Nazi regime.

[Anonymous No.11815852]

>>11815680
Some of these beliefs do reek of slave-morality "noo you just misread nietzschee, it's more nuanced and conceptual!" when nietzsche unambigously denounces egalitarian morality and talks in favor of hierarchies, so in this aspect he at least wouldnt moralize Hitler. At other hand he probably would have found stupid the idea of national interests being higher that the individual man since state, nationality and etc. is a spook for him

[Anonymous No.11815950]

>>11815702
Nietzsche was very outspoken about his distaste for the German nationalism that would eventually become Nazism.

[Anonymous No.11816026]

>>11815950

Wrong. Sorry Juden, try again =^]

[Anonymous No.11816180]

>>11815702
Nietzsche literally laughed in his sister's face when her husband killed himself because his pure aryan colony in South America failed

[Anonymous No.11816206]

>>11815680
Absolutely not. Nietzsche first of all wasn't a sophisticated political thinker. His strengths lied in moral philosophy and the theory of value, and his unparalleled insights into psychology. This combined with his mastery of the classics, languages, and western philosophy produced his worth.

National socialism was ultimately a darwinian viewpoint, which N rejected. He did not believe in collectivism and the subordination of the individual to the state. This was slave morality, the abdication of moral autonomy in favor of group think.

He wanted everyone to march to the beat of their own drum rather than follow the leader.

[Anonymous No.11816256]

>>11816180
>Nietzsche literally laughed in his sister's face when her husband killed himself because his pure aryan colony in South America failed
You were there, huh?

[Anonymous No.11816265]

>>11816206
>He wanted everyone to march to the beat of their own drum rather than follow the leader.
>He did not believe in collectivism and the subordination of the individual to the state. This was slave morality

Yeah lads N just wanted what was best for the people, radical individualism for everyone and advocated a liberalist disdain to hierarchy because following hierarchies is for the herd.. right?

[Anonymous No.11816273]

The issue with national socialism from a Nietzschean perspective would be it's inclusiveness and glorifying of last men. Ofcourse not all hierarchies are good, and not all societies are ran top down like Nietzsche would argue for. I think this was one of the negatives of national socialism and it most likely (had it won the war) would end up in the same degenerate point we are today

[Anonymous No.11816298]

>>11815680
I think he would have been loyal opposition to the party, kind of like Evola was in Italy. The idea of doing away with the power of priestly merchants and breeding a master race whose collective will could transcend the master/slave moral paradigm would have been very appealing to him.
>>11815950
Wrong. He didn't like "German nationalism" because, like Hitler, he recognized that the German nation came from a mixed Aryan stock so instead of "German nationalism" which was mostly only concerned with borders, he would have advocated for "Pan-Europeanism" which is more or less what Hitler was aiming for.
>>11816206
>He wanted everyone to march to the beat of their own drum rather than follow the leader.
Wrong, Nietzsche would agree that most people are incapable of such a thing

[Anonymous No.11816316]

>>11816273
Doubt it. If it were to degenerate it would probably have been to an absolute autocracy after a regime change, but life would probably still not be as bad as it is now.

[Anonymous No.11816321]

>>11816316
I don't know if it would be possible to de-seed what had been sown, namely the humanist movement since the enlightenment, which has been plaguing the western world for centuries at this point

[Anonymous No.11816344]

Nietzsche died before the jewish parasitic destruction of Germany had really taken its course. He probably would have wanted the jews gone like most Germans who had to deal with the results of their behavior did. Now the jews have total power and we're in a situation that's 100x worse.

[Anonymous No.11816378]

>>11816316
>but life would probably still not be as bad as it is now
Out of curiosity, what is it that you want? What are your complaints with the modern world?

[Anonymous No.11816400]

>>11816344
But Nietzsche was very pro-semite. He thought the jews would save europe. He would probably be a neoliberal today, openly praising successful jews and also innovative capitalists like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or Elon Musk, while laughing at neo-nazis rabid anti-semitism and marxist's pathological hatred for capitalism. He probably wouldn't like the mass migration into european countries too, to be fair.

[Anonymous No.11816420]

>>11816400
Kikes did not interact with greater European society until they were released from the shtetl in the early 1800s, so people didn't understand their nature. Nietzsche again died around the turn of the century, which was before jews had torn Germany to the ground. No one knows what he would have been because he missed the most important parts of what led to the German people wanting jews gone.

[Anonymous No.11816428]

The Nazi leadership were resentful petit bourgeois bugmen. They were also incompetents... the fudging of the Luftwaffe. The Nazi state, unlike say the autocratic regimes of Pericles, the Medici or the German Kaisers, was almost completely devoid of artistic or philosophical life. It is a sick state. Göring called himself a Renaissance man, but Nazi ‘civilisation’ was atrophied from the very beginning. Dependent on the limited, womanly personality of Hitler.

[Anonymous No.11816436]

>>11816420
>No one knows what he would have been
This is truest thing you've said so far, and also points out how stupid this thread is.

[Anonymous No.11816442]

>>11816428
>nazi
>nazi
>nazi
You know the "nazis" never called themselves "nazis" right? Way to lose credibility immediately, chum.

[Anonymous No.11816446]

>>11816428
Also I said Pericles autocratic regime I fucked up. Demagogue with concentrated power though.
>>11816442
Crying?

[Anonymous No.11816454]

>>11816442
The ancient greeks also didn't call themselves greek. Do I lose credibility if I discuss greek philosiphy by referring to them that way?

[Anonymous No.11816468]

>>11816446
>>11816454
"Nazi" is a jewish propaganda word. Anyone who uses it cannot be taken seriously and should be assumed to be a kike.

[Anonymous No.11816506]

>>11815680
UBERMENSCH = BODHISATTVA

[Anonymous No.11816600]

>>11816378
I can free myself from materialism. I can look inward and try to understand my true nature so as to live consciously in a way that is congruent with my unconscious. I can recognize the insanity of the endless march of social progress that aims to do nothing but delimit who you can touch with your junk. The thing is, none of this matters if no one around me can envision a better way of living and make the collective sacrifice in order to return to a homeostatic state of being. Instead they employ endless rationalization and doublethink to survive this pointless garbage nightmare hellscape built to serve no one but Israel and their capitalist lackeys, and reflexively mock attempts at transcendence because they know they would never achieve such a thing themselves.
Hitler did literally not one single thing wrong. The men who killed him were traitors to humanity.

[Anonymous No.11816644]

>>11816600
Hitler committed suicide

[Anonymous No.11816652]

>>11816644
He was all but a dead man after they failed to take Stalingrad

[Anonymous No.11816841]

>>11816180
this callous cruelty is totally in line with Nazi tendencies

[Anonymous No.11816849]

>>11815736
the way you talk is so gay I bet you get so much pussy

[Anonymous No.11817458]

>>11816841
Dude stop reading comic books Nazis aren't this sadistic thugs like redskull. They committed countless atrocities but it was never done in a "gleeful" way, for instance SS officers were executed for robbing inmates of concentration camps, even though they were gassing them by the millions. They were German efficiency taken to the extreme.

[Anonymous No.11817468]

>>11817458
Uh, no one buys these jewish narratives anymore, especially on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.11817475]

>>11817458
Oh it was never done in a gleeful way? The psychological profile of every single architect and executor of National Socialism varies in every respect except for a uniform absence of glibness?

[Anonymous No.11817488]

>>11815680
>However, given his impulsiveness and contradictory personality
You mean given the things that he didn't actually have? lmao.

>After all, he and Heidegger had many shared beliefs.
Fuck Heidegger, he didn't understand Nietzsche for shit.

That said, I could see him advocating for NatSoc, except not Germany's form of it or current /pol/'s form of it. It would be more the NatSoc equivalent of Plato's Kallipolis.

[Anonymous No.11817734]

>>11815680
Not while he was healthy, no. He would have despised their dogmatism. The Nazis were the very gregarious, hiveminded idiots he warned us about.

[Anonymous No.11817757]

>>11817734
Do you have any more 10th grade jewish historical propaganda points you'd like to regurgitate for us today?

[Anonymous No.11817762]

>>11817488
>>>11815680 (OP)
>That said, I could see him advocating for NatSoc, except not Germany's form of it or current /pol/'s form of it. It would be more the NatSoc equivalent of Plato's Kallipolis.

I agree that the national socialism of Germany or /Pol/ would be abhorrent to him. After all, those systems involve essentially modifying human nature to be purely interested in the success of the state, which if one just consults their experience for a second they will realize that the human mind is much more complicated than that. Any notion of socialism that involves the the abolition of man, so to speak, in favor of the glory of the state he would certainly abhor. Plato's republic, ironically, is more practical in comparison, though that's not saying much.

[Anonymous No.11817778]

>>11815680
Thats the big question OP. After WW2 a lot of philosophers, especially the french started to move away from a fascist Nietzsche. It's hard to say what Nietzsche truly believed himself.

Bataille's On Nietzsche is a good post war book that shows an interpretation moving away from fascism.

[Anonymous No.11817780]

>>11817757
The Nazis were obsessed with purification, i e., scrubbing human nature to worship the state/race. What's life affirming about that? Nietzsche detested the socialists of his day and their anti-humanism. I don't see how you can reconcile those, senpai.

[Anonymous No.11817786]

>>11817762
If Nietzsche came back and saw all the shitskins squatting in Germany and became aware of facts like how half of Frankfurt's elementary school children are non-Germans, he'd dig up Hitler himself.

[Anonymous No.11817794]

>>11817780
See: >>11816442
There's no such thing as a "Nazi."

And nature is a racial struggle. It's "life-affirming" properties are built in.

[Anonymous No.11817795]

>>11816644
shallow and pedantic

[Anonymous No.11817844]

>>11817488
>>Fuck Heidegger, he didn't understand Nietzsche for shit.
>I understand Nietzsche much more than the greatest philosopher of the twentieth century who wrote over a thousands pages of lecture on him, who I understand enough to know he was COMPLETELY wrong

[Anonymous No.11817893]

The Nazi regime failed in its basic purpose - racial struggle - and destroyed half of European civilisation along with itself. War was not forced on Germany and all the national conflicts it embroiled itself in were almost completely avoidable. Hitler could have delayed the war several years if he’d liked (and probably would have, if not for hasty opportunism). He could have focused exclusively on either a Western or Eastern front war. He could have avoided war with the US. The Third Reich, of its own accord, attempted to create a radically new civilisation and failed. No one else should foot the bill. The amoral principle of national struggle has no reason to offer them sympathy... and yet poltard apologists frame the war in some gay bourgeois moralist light... not just for propaganda reasons but because they’re actual dupes.

[Anonymous No.11817929]

>>11815720
>he hated antisemitism

Have you fucking read him?

[Anonymous No.11817943]

>>11817929
>Ive seen proof, black on white, that Herr Dr. Förster has not yet severed his connection with the anti-Semitic movement. … Since then I've had difficulty coming up with any of the tenderness and protectiveness I've so long felt toward you. The separation between us is thereby decided in really the most absurd way. Have you grasped nothing of the reason why I am in the world? … Now it has gone so far that I have to defend myself hand and foot against people who confuse me with these anti-Semitic canaille; after my own sister, my former sister, and after Widemann more recently have given the impetus to this most dire of all confusions. After I read the name Zarathustra in the anti-Semitic Correspondence my forbearance came to an end. I am now in a position of emergency defense against your spouse's Party. These accursed anti-Semite deformities shall not sully my ideal!!
Draft for a letter[dead link] to his sister Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche (December 1887)

Nietzsche may have criticised Judaism, but he loved Jews. His best friends was a Jew and he did his best to disassociate his work from the early stirrings of natsoc-like ideologies.

[Anonymous No.11817945]

>>11817943
>You have committed one of the greatest stupidities — for yourself and for me! Your association with an anti-Semitic chief expresses a foreignness to my whole way of life which fills me again and again with ire or melancholy. … It is a matter of honor with me to be absolutely clean and unequivocal in relation to anti-Semitism, namely, opposed to it, as I am in my writings. I have recently been persecuted with letters and Anti-Semitic Correspondence Sheets. My disgust with this party (which would like the benefit of my name only too well!) is as pronounced as possible, but the relation to Förster, as well as the aftereffects of my former publisher, the anti-Semitic Schmeitzner, always brings the adherents of this disagreeable party back to the idea that I must belong to them after all. … It arouses mistrust against my character, as if publicly I condemned something which I have favored secretly — and that I am unable to do anything against it, that the name of Zarathustra is used in every Anti-Semitic Correspondence Sheet, has almost made me sick several times.
Objecting to his sister Elisabeth, about her marriage to the anti-semite Bernhard Förster, in a Christmas letter (1887) in Friedrich Nietzsche's Collected Letters, Vol. V, #479

[Anonymous No.11818133]

Nietzsche was ashamed of being German, even identified more as Polish

[Anonymous No.11818337]

[Anonymous No.11818352]

>nietzsche associating with mass political movements

[Anonymous No.11818442]

>>11815725
This. Reminder that Heidegger was a legit nazi party member for only a year, and stop caring after he realized it was all about sheeple worshipping war machinery instead of crafting a truly new authentic German spirit, away from technophilia.

>>11816265
Also this but unironically.

[Anonymous No.11818445]

>>11818133
>we was polacks and sheit

pretty pathetic tbqhwu

[Anonymous No.11818486]

>>11817475
shallow and pedantic

[Anonymous No.11818570]

>>11817893
You have such a poor understanding of the history surrounding WW2 it is impressive. Maybe read a book or two from the other side? The American/Soviet perspective on the war tells a very different story of it than the German, and whatever the "truth" is, is likely something between them.

[Anonymous No.11818617]

>>11818570
This is the "German" perspective. Every time some faggot tells me to read the "German" perspective they mean post-war American/English sympathisers to the Third Reich. Right-wing German historians will agree with this.

[Anonymous No.11818687]

>>11817795
Sure. But the asinine ramblings of some undergrad who thinks he has transcended materialism and understood his true nature are totally worth listening to, right?

[Anonymous No.11818709]

>>11817778
seconding bataille but just jump to his "nietzsche and the fascists"

[Anonymous No.11818809]

>>11818442
It's not surprising at all; Heidegger would probably not have been impressed with any political movement. Concern with the comings and goings of everyday life was not his thing.
It's probably true that Nietzsche would've seen the "volkism" of National Socialism as plebeian, but necessary in a post-enlightenment political landscape.

[Anonymous No.11818899]

>>11818809
erm, why would he see it as necessary? Nietzsche already lived in a post-enlightenment political landscape

[Anonymous No.11818934]

>>11818442
A point to be made about Heidegger at this time as well was that, if I'm remembering this correctly, was that in the early years of the NatSocs gaining power in Germany, he became the rector of the university of Freiburg.

This put him into a political position where, as the Nazis grew more influential, if he did not at least pretend to be a supporter of the new state he would certainly have lost this position (as well as much of any influence he might have had in the affairs of the day).

>Heidegger was elected rector of the University on 21 April 1933, and joined the National Socialist German Workers' (Nazi) Party on 1 May.[29] In his inaugural address as rector on 27 May he expressed his support of a German revolution, and in an article and a speech to the students from the same year he also supported Adolf Hitler.[30] In November 1933, Heidegger signed the Loyalty Oath of German Professors to Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist State. He resigned the rectorate in April 1934, but remained a member of the Nazi Party until 1945 even though (as Julian Young asserts) the Nazis eventually prevented him from publishing.[31]

>According to historian Richard J. Evans, Heidegger was not only a member of the Nazi Party, but was enthusiastic about participating. He wanted to position himself as the philosopher of the Party, but the highly abstract nature of his work and the opposition of Alfred Rosenberg, who himself aspired to act in that position, limited Heidegger's role. His resignation from the rectorate owed more to his frustration as an administrator than to any principled opposition to the Nazis.[32]

>Heidegger's Black Notebooks, written between 1931 and 1941 and first published in 2014, contain several anti-semitic statements and have led to a re-evaluation of Heidegger's relation to Nazism.[33]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Heidegger

I really can't claim to know the truth of this matter. I've heard that he was an avowed supporter of the Nazi party. Indeed, he did appear to desire to be THE philosopher of the German state - an entity which he may indeed have believed would soon come to be the dominant world power, as many Germans did at the time - which could feasibly make him something akin to the world's primer professor of philosophy, a hard thing to shy away from if you believe that it may indeed be in your grasp, and take into account this was just after the publishing of Sein und Zeit, when the rest of the country's thinkers were still trying to figure out what the fuck he was on about, though they still seemed to regard the work with a kind of awe - knowing that they had something terrific on their hands even if they didn't fully understand it.

I've also heard it said that he may have, at one time, held this belief, that it was short lived, and that the repressive nature of the Nazi party was, suffice to say, a real turn off to him. Philosophy professors don't generally take to the idea of books being burnt.

[Anonymous No.11818948]

>>11818934
oh no not again

[Anonymous No.11819139]

>>11818687
Your willful incomprehension of my main point (individual realizations about the need to reject a corrupt system are futile in themselves are futile when almost everyone around you is in complete submission to it) exactly what I'm talking about. Your derision and total lack of an argument belies your fundamental agreement with what I'm saying.
I'm not even claiming that I know what to do about it, but I don't know how you can think our modern crises wouldnt have been partially averted by a different outcome of the second world war.

[Anonymous No.11819201]

>>11815691
retard

[Anonymous No.11819478]

>>11817844
>greatest philosopher of the 20th century
>a guy who butchered Nietzsche in favor of ye olde metaphysics
The French postmodernists are genuinely better than Heidegger.