Stoner

[Anonymous No.11774250]

Just finished it. It'd been a long time since a book made me cry.
The way Williams so beautifully captures the life of a man who lived in such an average, yet tragic way, all for the few things that he loved, is breathtaking. It really reminds you how heroic the everyday man is, as small as he may be. I don't even know what else to say really.
This thread will probably not get a ton of attention, but I just had to share with someone how damn beautiful a book can actually be. Not because it's witty or clever, or even because it showcases the brilliance of its author (though it does all of that and more.) Great art like this is great simply because it touches the soul with its honesty. I think sometimes we lose sight of that here on /lit/

If you haven't read Stoner, READ IT. It is by far the best work this board has yet convinced me to read.

[Anonymous No.11774269]

>>11774250
I had planned to order it online before going to bed
so, yeah, really ? it doesn't look like the plot is breathtaking

[Anonymous No.11774274]

>>11774250
I thought all the same things anon. The first chapter in particular got me the hardest, when he tells his parents he's staying at school.

[Anonymous No.11774276]

That part where he saw how unhappy his daughter was with her life and remarked that he was at least happy that she could drink to take her pain away fucking destroyed me.

[Anonymous No.11774279]

>>11774250
>heroic
Or non-heroic

[Anonymous No.11774285]

Ladies and gentlemen: Charles Walker.

[Anonymous No.11774293]

Never heard of this. I like gushing reviews though so I'll pick it up, thanks

[Anonymous No.11774297]

>>11774269
Yes you should read it. The book isn't rife with action or anything, but it is 100x more interesting than you would would expect a book about a guy who goes into teaching English to be. It is simply the chronicle of a man's life.

[Anonymous No.11774312]

>>11774274
Yeah, that was a tough one. Related to it quite a bit. For me the toughest part might have been when Edith starts to separate Grace from Stoner. Everything involving Grace was a real tear jerker, especially towards the end

[Anonymous No.11774324]

>>11774276
Yeah Grace's life was a fucking tragedy. The part where Stoner remembers his time with her in his study as he's about to die was maybe the toughest thing for me through in years
I agree >>11774312

[Anonymous No.11774342]

>>11774279
What made him non-heroic? In my opinion he is a great representation of how damn resilient the everyman really is.

>>11774285
kek

>>11774293
Good, I'm happy that I convinced someone to read it. I haven't done a "gee wiz I finished" book post for anything else I've read so just know that it's really that good and I'm not overexaggerating.

[Anonymous No.11774350]

>>11774250
I liked it that he dies with a book in his hands. Very /lit/ death.

[Anonymous No.11774429]

It's one of those books that make you feel alive for a while, as if Stoner is foreshadowing your life and you know it, but you can't do anything to stop it. Really anxiety inducing and somewhat lovely at the same time. But really, what's up with Lomax and that cripple? Was the Walker Lomax's Katherine?

[Anonymous No.11774532]

>>11774297
ok I just ordered it, along with 2 collections of short stories by DFW - this is gonna be crucial to determine how reliable /lit/ recommendations are

[Anonymous No.11774540]

Thanks just ordered

[Anonymous No.11774548]

>>11774250
I've seen Stoner memed a lot on /lit/ and wasn't sure what to make of it, but this post has convinced me to actually check it out. Thanks, anon.

[Anonymous No.11774552]

>>11774532
>along with 2 collections of short stories by DFW
lmaaaaaaao you got memed hard nigga. DFW is legit trash, and out of the meme trilogy, he's the one that is actually a shit author. You're wasting time, anon. If you want to read short stories then buy a collection of Kafka or Borges or Tolstoy. Never again waste your money on fucking DFW.

[Anonymous No.11774574]

>>11774548
It's one of the few books that /lit/ memes that is actually good.

[Anonymous No.11774614]

>>11774552
DFW can't be worse than Kafka, but yeah I realize that these may very well end up in my local free library. Won't be the first time I get trolled (I already bought and read Master and Margarita).

[Anonymous No.11774618]

>>11774614
if you got trolled with MaM then you got a bad translation, that book is based

[Anonymous No.11774628]

>>11774429
>Was the Walker Lomax's Katherine
Not quite sure. Thought it would be addressed in the last meeting Stoner had with Lomax and Finch. The Walker thing is perhaps the most soul crushing part. Lomax and Edith both serve as the archetypal villains in the average man's life too boot.
I rate the theory that lomax and Walker were in a gay relationship as very improbable, I think Lomax had such an affinity for him because they were both cripples.

[Anonymous No.11774634]

>>11774532
>someone else will be influced by it because of me sharing how I was
That's a nice thought anon, thank you

[Anonymous No.11774638]

>>11774540
you too
>>11774634

[Anonymous No.11774647]

>>11774614
>'trolled' by MaM
>it doesn't look like the plot is breathtaking
I see now, you're just a pleb that stumbled across the board without having any taste in literature at all, i doubt that you even started with the Greeks or at the very least know your Shakespeare. You probably won't like DFW and not because he's good, but because you're probably a low attention span faggot who can't concentrate on any task for longer than 5 minutes without being 'entertained'. I would advise you to get your recommendations from reddit or /sffg/.

Authors that are you'll love:

GRRM
Phillip K Dick
Vonnegut
Dr Seuss
Tolkien
Asiimov

[Anonymous No.11774672]

>>11774552
>>11774647
>t. the exact kind of trash posts that would ruin this board if not for the handful of decent people who make it wading through the shit worthwhile.
Not him but fuck off pretentious pseud

[Anonymous No.11774695]

>>11774250
I'll check it out OP, thanks for reminding me, I've seen the book mentioned a couple of times

[Anonymous No.11774894]

>>11774342
>>11774279

To me the scene that best show Stoner as the tragic hero archetype is when he votes for Walker removal even tho it is not only a futile act but also one that will ruin his career. Stoner commitment with the ethical and with the values he believes a University should withhold drives him to make a decision that for an observer would look silly and naive.

[Anonymous No.11775031]

Why did Lomax hate him so much? Never understand that

[Anonymous No.11775054]

>>11774250
Do you think that Edith's father molested her? That was the feeling I got from her reaction to his death. Not sure If i'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, though

[Anonymous No.11775276]

>>11775054
>Do you think that Edith's father molested her?
I find it about as likely that Lomax was Walker's gay lover, that is to say not very likely at all, but who knows, maybe?
I prefer to use Occum's razor and just say she had a very cloistered childhood, and was very cognizant of the fact that she was marrying down. In my opinion Edith was just obsessed with appearances and detested Stoner because he was a commoner at heart.

But as I said, who knows? 4chan, as moot once pointed out, tends to have developed a philisophical system of deduction that is the exact opposite of Occum's razor.

[Anonymous No.11775281]

>>11775031
This is what I think caused it
>>11774628

[Anonymous No.11775320]

>>11774250
His life was not that average. Very few people are professors with deep knowledge of literature.

[Anonymous No.11775467]

>>11774285
He would actually be really well cast in a movie. Much better than Casey Affleck

[Anonymous No.11775562]

>>11775320
No, but there's a certain level to which most of us here can relate to him, being passionate about a subject he was passionate about as well, and finding ourselves in a day and age where women are encouraged to be awful companions to us, and work is generally unfulfilling.
The average /lit/izen if anything seems to want to live life deliberately, even if many of us are still only college age pretentious twats.

[Anonymous No.11775571]

>>11774250

[Anonymous No.11775586]

>>11774324
>>11774312
>>11774297

As a man who has spent the last third of his life grappling with the impact of his brother's alcoholism and reflecting on that addiction as a generational theme in my father's family, that sentiment from Stoner was both profoundly sad and incredibly, though darkly, amusing.

[Anonymous No.11775803]

>>11775586
I know that feel too well man. My mother has pretty much been a binge drinker for years now. I've even had that thought before, that no matter how shitty my life gets I'll be able to drown it in liquor. Sorry to hear that though anon

[Anonymous No.11775885]

>>11775803

It's a bitch man, but honestly I think my life - in terms of my relationship with myself - would actually be unhappier if I hadn't had this adversity to kind of cut my spiritual/emotional/intellectual teeth against. I've always been a real underachiever, typical directionless smart kid, but gregarious enough to get along decently with most people and with a developed moral compass. Having to be there for my parents and younger siblings has helped me to find balance in my own life. Coupled with experience volunteering with kids from broken homes and work with people with extreme mental/physical handicaps, I've managed to find a sense of gratitude and peace beyond my peers. That may not have happened otherwise.

[Anonymous No.11776079]

>>11775885
Are you religious? If you mind me asking anon. It sounds like we come from a very similar set of circumstances. Luckily I am thankful that I don't think I've had it as rough as you maybe have, but I can agree that I have also found solace through my struggles in life as well.
> I've always been a real underachiever, typical directionless smart kid, but gregarious enough to get along decently with most people and with a developed moral compass
Pretty much describes me man. I have been so underachieving for so long. Just got out of high school and now I'm a NEET who spends his time reading, going on 4chan, and debating autistic philosophical and political shit while my family seems to get worse each day. All while my friends who were in the same advanced programs as me are off in Ivy League institutions right now.

>Coupled with experience volunteering with kids from broken homes and work with people with extreme mental/physical handicaps, I've managed to find a sense of gratitude and peace beyond my peers. That may not have happened otherwise.
I know what you mean man. I don't wanna go on a list of all the good things I've done or anything but I also have tried to take things in that vein up before. I have a real desire to actually make a difference for someone. So few people today really stop to live like it means anything I feel like, most people are just out for themselves, so having a tough past can really put things into perspective.

Godspeed anon, praying for you man.

[Anonymous No.11776252]

>>11774250
iktf anon, i finished this last week and i love it so much. best book ive read in a while.

[Anonymous No.11776256]

>>11774342
>What made him non-heroic? In my opinion he is a great representation of how damn resilient the everyman really is.
Resilient yeah, but almost too resilient. I wouldn't say he's supposed to be a hero, but a very average man, and that is supposed to be best part about him. He's not a hero, he's just like you and me. He of course has his heroic moments, like when he goes against the curriculum or doesn't budge with Charles Walker. But he has his faults as well, like allowing his wife to remove his daughter from him and his failed marriage in general.
That's why it's an interesting story, because he isn't perfect, he fucks up. Although he is a great deal more resilient than the average person and definitely more strong in his convictions. But I don't think Williams intention was to make him seem like a hero, but seem like a guy, just some guy.

[Anonymous No.11776416]

>>11774250

I had similar thoughts when i first read it Op ty for sharing... great book

Stoner made me feel happy and more ok with my own shortcomings

[Anonymous No.11776482]

>>11776256
Good post I agree

[Anonymous No.11776491]

I have to stop reading threads about books I'm in the middle of. Just a five second glance here and I've already spoiled so much shit

[Anonymous No.11776494]

>>11776252
What are you reading next anon?

>>11776416
>Stoner made me feel happy and more ok with my own shortcomings
Yeah, it is a good book to read when you're feeling totally beat. It's almost like The Old Man and the Sea in how it seems to exalt someone you would otherwise think of as pathetic, and that's part of why I relate to it as well I guess

[Anonymous No.11776504]

>>11776491
Shit, sorry anon. I put most of my shit in spoilers but yeah I've had that happen to me before. I will say, there are only a handful of unprotected posts that spoil major shit. From reading through this thread much of it has been only moderately specific details.

[Anonymous No.11777919]

>>11776079

I am not religious in any meaningful sense of the word. I would like to believe in benevolent God, and generally tend to lean in that direction, but can't espouse the doctrine of any particular faith in that vein. I don't accept Christ as my personal savior and I cannot reconcile myself to the notion of Hell ever existing (infinite punishment for finite sin).

However, I have had very positive experiences working within Christian organizations and some of my closest friends have been devout Methodists and Catholics. I have great respect for lay Christians and the fact that their ideology provises them an impetus to do good works, far beyond what the majority of complacent apatheists rise to. The symbolism and mythos also jives well with me and I can find parallels with my own personal spiritual observations in many regards.

[Anonymous No.11777952]

>>11776494
>you would otherwise think of as pathetic

I don't understand where this kind of thinking comes from, I often catch myself thinking that you haven't made it if you haven't accomplished something noticeable on a broader scale, I mean real broad, and then I have to guide myself through some thoughts that lead me to respect everyone for what they do without thinking about the global context,

also, does anyone have the full interview of this:

“I think he’s a real hero. A lot of people who have read the
novel think that Stoner had such a sad and bad life. I think he
had a very good life. He had a better life than most people do,
certainly. He was doing what he wanted to do, he had some
feeling for what he was doing, he had some sense of the
importance of the job he was doing. He was a witness to values
that are important ... The important thing in the novel to me is
Stoner’s sense of a job. Teaching to him is a job—a job in the
good and honorable sense of the word. His job gave him a
particular kind of identity and made him what he was ... It’s
the love of the thing that’s essential. And if you love
something, you’re going to understand it. And if you
understand it, you’re going to learn a lot. The lack of that love
defines a bad teacher ... You never know all the results of what
you do. I think it all boils down to what I was trying to get at in
Stoner. You’ve got to keep the faith. The important thing is to
keep the tradition going, because the tradition is civilization.”

this one is also nice in the introduction:
"If the novel can be said to have one central idea, it is surely that of
love, the many forms love takes and all the forces that oppose it. “It
[love] was a passion neither of the mind nor of the heart, it was a
force that comprehended them both, as if they were but the matter
of love, its specific substance.”

[Anonymous No.11777980]

just posting my favorite passage, carry on

[Anonymous No.11777985]

>>11775031
I think it was because he saw an able-bodied man wasting his potential. i.e jealousy

[Anonymous No.11777992]

>>11774250
I agree OP, I think you've distilled it well. It's possible to become too academic and lose touch with the personal experience of art.

[Anonymous No.11777994]

>>11777980
Nice.

[Anonymous No.11778492]

>>11776494
can't decide, right now I'm between Notes From Underground, Mao II, and On the Road

[Anonymous No.11778580]

>>11777980
>only read Aristotle in middle age

[Anonymous No.11778583]

Alright you've convinced me, I just bought it.
>>11774350
Even though I know the end now..

[Anonymous No.11778646]

Reading the book, I always suspected that Lomax was having an affair with Edith, from both a sentence about the dinner party where he lingers just a bit too long on kissing her cheek and from his later hatred towards Stoner.

If it's a theory anyone else has I've never come across it.

[Anonymous No.11779096]

>>11778492
Notes

On the road is a rambling mess only certain dirty hippies like

Cant speak for mao

[Anonymous No.11779123]

>>11779096
thanks, I'll take your word for it

[Anonymous No.11779197]

>>11774250
Stoner was a little bitch who never stood up for himself and is the perfect example of how NOT to live your life

[Anonymous No.11779485]

>>11775276

I thought the implication if molestation was incredibly overt. After her father dies she goes and destroys everything she has relating to him and sets it on fire, when wanting to conceive she would lie rigid on the bed for hours to psyche herself up, and she panicked and freaked out when Stoner spent time alone with their daughter, to the point where she was downright relieved that he was having an affair since that would mean his interests were engaged elsewhere.

[Anonymous No.11779686]

>>11779096

Kerouac is an author for smarter than average high school theater chicks who need to adopt a "free spirit" persona as a way to distract themselves from not feeling pretty enough. Until they get to college, when they replace reading with feminist activism or fucking every guy who can ape a bit of sophistication when hitting on them.

[Anonymous No.11780559]

>>11777952
I think that the interview excerpt was also from the intro wasn't it?

[Anonymous No.11780570]

>>11777980
It's up there as one of my favorite

>>11778580
>/pseudlit/ reporting in to tell you he's smarter than you
Everytime

[Anonymous No.11780576]

>>11777992
A lot of the time I think the spirit of this board gets too egotistical, or caught up in the pursuit of clever writing, or purple prose, rather than simple honesty. I agree though man, there is of course a place for literature as a craft or a study, but we often forget that it's a lot more than that.

[Anonymous No.11780583]

>>11778646
Shit anon this is probably the best fan theory I have ever heard. That shit makes total sense. Never would have thought of that.

[Anonymous No.11780594]

>>11779485
Hmmm... sounded unlikely at first but maybe. Now that you put it like that it seems to add up.
>>11778646
Seems a tad more plausible to me, however I think you just might be onto something

[Anonymous No.11780600]

>>11777980
Good shit, one of my favorites also
Here's another great one

>“Nothing had changed. Their lives had been expended in the cheerless labor, their wills broken, their intelligence numbed. Now they were in the earth to which they had given their lives; and slowly, year by year, the earth would take them. Slowly the damp and rot would infest the pine boxes which held their bodies, and slowly it would touch their flesh and finally it would consume the last vestiges of their substances. And they would become a meaningless part of that stubborn earth to which they had long ago given themselves.”

[Anonymous No.11780615]

>>11779686
kek. Were you in theatre too anon? Fuck 4 years of that shit was enough to fuel a life full of woman hate.
Girls seem to respond positively when you have the lead role, and the girls there are the sluttiest on campus because of the all around thirst they have for attention. You can benefit from this if you're a scumbag like me, but really it is better to just not pursue casual sex. The pursuit of it leads often to misery and enmity with the Lord I have found.

But yeah theater man, brings back memories of a lot of inane faggotry.

[Anonymous No.11780695]

>>11774276
True, ecpecially when it's said that She wandered confused in Stoner's house (for the abuse of alcool) or something like that, english isn't my first language

[Anonymous No.11780891]

>>11778646
this is what i was thinking when i read it. the dinner party scene really hinted at it, and i also thought edith's early knowledge of stoner's affair with katherine suggested it, because edith didn't interact with many people at the university that could have informed her of it besides lomax or gordon's wife

[Anonymous No.11781145]

>when Katherine dedicates her book to Stoner

[Anonymous No.11781218]

>>11781145
devastating

[Anonymous No.11781235]

>>11779197
When he stood up to defent himself scumbags in powet like Lomax put him down.

[Anonymous No.11781246]

>>11781235
defend*, power*, fucking phoneposting

[Anonymous No.11781435]

>>11780615

I wasn't in theater myself, but I knew theater kids late in high school and in college (pursuing a theater chick from another school, scenery building elective, some in my dorms)

My earlier post was aimed at the high school ones, since I knew them the best. The Dharma Bums and On the Road were favorites in that circle. They were actually a lot of fun to hang out with at the time, but they had all had quirks and pretty much across the board went on to personal dramatics.

1. Went on to an Ivy League school and routinely cheated on her boyfriends, which for some reason all tended to be Republicans (antithetical to her).

2. Two were married and divorced by 25, one of whom has a polyamorous bent to her love life now.

3. Another one, whom I'm sure has some less attractive sister syndrome, is in a long term relationship (and I just found out she is miserable and has cheated on the guy numerous times).

4. One was in this cyclical toxic relationship with a theater guy from high school, eventually cut her hair short, and became the biggest feminist out if the bunch.

There were a few more I have lost track of. Had fun with them in high school, but there was always this weird forced aspect to their spontaneity.

[Anonymous No.11781655]

>>11781435
Yeah, I'm not old enough to see my coevals age into washed up roasties yet, but that sounds about right. The girl who ended up being the first girl I fell in love with who I lost my virginity to and who was my first serious gf was and is crazy bro.
This girl has had 30+ sexual partners, both male and female (we're both 18 now.) She actually got together with me by cheating on her dyke gf at the time. Then went on to basically become an emotionally manipulative domme gf, who would ultimately cuck me with chads. There was once where I cucked her with other chicks while I was the lead role in the musical we were doing. But yeah man she ended up becoming a cam girl, and 1000s of people jerk off to her all the time now, and pay for her socks and shit. And I'm just sitting here with the knowledge that my ex is making more via porn than my dad makes and she's using the foot fetish I instilled in her to make loads of cash.

As for the other girls, yeah they're roasts too but not to this extent.

[Anonymous No.11781834]

>>11774647
I know this is a joke post but there are people who unironically think like this and obsess over what other people read.

[Anonymous No.11782334]

>>11781834
I really don't think that guy was joking kek

[Anonymous No.11783241]

>>11781655

I'd be really interested to hear more about your theater pals as your life goes on. I'm 29 and I would wager that, like me, you'll get to see your peers compliment their pseudo-intellectual teenage "manic" phase with some seriously "depressive" adult experiences.

[Anonymous No.11784688]

Great book, I read it after The Tartar Steppe, they mesh pretty well specially if you're feeling miserable