COLLEGE PSEUDS PART 2

[Anonymous No.11744898]

Well, /lit/, today was the second class of the introduction to political theory. The assigned readings were a few selections from Plato's Republic.

According to my esteemed peers, in short, Plato is GARBAGE.

>slave-owning defendant of the stratified status quo
>the sacred INDIVIDUAL is neglected; the guardian is not allowed to own precious private property, the producers cannot strive to become powerful guardians in their own right
>there is nothing to stop the almighty guardians from exercising tyranny over the lower classes

/lit/, however could you respond to such a barrage of well-considered and devastating critiques of plato's utopia?

[Anonymous No.11744910]

you were obviously born with perfect understanding of the deep workings of πόλεις.

[Anonymous No.11744973]

>>11744898
You say that the republic is a work of ethics more than a work of politics and move on

[Anonymous No.11744984]

Serious answer: try to identify the hard core of beliefs underlying those critiques and then discuss their validity or, better yet, their adequacy to the situation at hand with your peers

[Anonymous No.11745007]

>>11744984
just call them bluepilled neolib cucks lol

[Anonymous No.11745023]

>sacred INDIVIDUAL
>le tips

[Anonymous No.11745047]

>>11744898
the greeks had a stupid amount of loyalty to their identity as greeks. so much so that they themselves tolerated tyrannical or corrupt forms of governments as if they were like fathers. It literally killed socrates because he died for "muh virtue"

[Anonymous No.11745183]

Oh I forgot this one from the resident blue haired whale

>The idea noble lie is bad because that's what led to the white male being mythologized and women and ppl of color being oppressed

At least me and another dude eyerolled each other

[Anonymous No.11745190]

>>11744898
>the sacred INDIVIDUAL is neglected
I think that is a foolish way to conceive it. Each individual should just.

[Anonymous No.11745197]

>>11745047
I dont think thats how Socrates viewed it. Atleast that is not how Plato depicted it.

[Anonymous No.11745204]

>>11745190
Should be* Just.

[Anonymous No.11745274]

If you're in college you're a pseud.

[Anonymous No.11745286]

>>11744898
>slave-owning defendant of the stratified status quo
Then we are all heinous defendants of this shitty system we live in as well. This logic is ridiculous and asinine. If we simply discount Plato’s theories because he owned slaves then we have to do the same thing for our founding fathers like Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson.
>he sacred INDIVIDUAL is neglected; the guardian is not allowed to own precious private property, the producers cannot strive to become powerful guardians in their own right
Remark that the vicious, legally defended right of private property only becomes necessary once you have an aggravated public who is wary of its own members. In the city states described in The Republic or The Laws, the city state is maintained so that all members will have good communications with one another, and where their private property is supposed to mix, then it is deemed lawful by the members of the community, because wise and much deliberated upon and it allows more freedom to the individuals (stress this last point)
>there is nothing to stop the almighty guardians from exercising tyranny over the lower classes
So what would stop anyone from tyrannizing anyone else at all, ever? If the people are placed in a situation where all property is intermingled and everyone treats everyone else as their own family, then it would be impossible for the guardians to be tyrannical. Any sort of authoritative position can be abused tyrannically, you can be the tyrant of a Burger King, but if you are the manager of a Burger King, then you are doing more harm to society’s virtues than if you were supposed to be protecting said virtues.

This is what your responses should have been

[Anonymous No.11745289]

>>11744898
>>11745183
American education is a joke.

[Anonymous No.11745477]

>>11745289
no u

[Anonymous No.11745503]

>>11745477
it is, don’t lie

[Anonymous No.11745543]

>>11745286
>Then we are all heinous defendants of this shitty system we live in as well
These people will agree with this and argue that you need to develop a political consciousness like theirs to not be complicit. "Silence is violence," etc.

[Anonymous No.11745651]

>>11745183
I'm reading this but im a brainlet could you please explain the noble lie I'm on book three. So he was saying the divine wont lie because they have no reasone to do such base things and lies are bad except certain types and the worst like is one you believe to be true eventhough its not? the noble lie was mentioned but i dont think it was elaborated is it just a lie which is purpose is to control others ( for just ends) ?

[Anonymous No.11745661]

>>11745007
based and redpilled

[Anonymous No.11745670]

>>11744984
Would there even be enough time for that in a classroom environment? Those are pretty heavy subjects and assumptions that his classmates are making

[Anonymous No.11745683]

>>11745651
Also , if i may add, i am reading the benjamin jowett translation because im a poor and its free. Is their any other translation which are more true to the source or clear or are more explanatory( notes and such)

[Anonymous No.11745710]

>>11745683
Have you read Crito, Meno, and Phaedo yet? Plato is probably the easiest to read philosopher out there. Most of the kind of stuff he mentions in one dialogue will have already been developed in some other dialogue, which is why it makes very little sense to read only one of his dialogues.

[Anonymous No.11745713]

>>11744898
Where the fuck do you go to school? I’m in California and it’s not even close to as bad as you describe.

[Anonymous No.11745724]

>>11745651
He believed the first generation or two would need to be 'indoctrinated' (he does not explain how) into believing that all of their upbringing and education occurred in a dream-world, and earth, 'mother', simply jettisoned one's current adult form into reality. Thus they would accept their divinely directed 'place' in the society, and if that meant foregoing hopes of social mobility, all the better. This would promote harmony in society by eliminating many of the tensions fomented by ambition/a dissatisfaction with one's lot in life.

In essence it's the foundational myth that underpins any nation, any group of people: the existence of a shared history and kinship.

[Anonymous No.11745725]

>>11744898
>Plato is GARBAGE
They are correct

[Anonymous No.11745726]

>>11745724
see David Bell's The Cult of the Nation to see an historical analysis of this, beginning with revolutionary France

[Anonymous No.11745730]

>>11745713
Northeast

[Anonymous No.11745736]

Plato was an aristocratic thinker. Read the speeches of demosthones if you don't want to be a cuck.

[Anonymous No.11745742]

>>11745710
No i only wanted to read nietzsche but then i was told i wouldn't understand it so they said start with the Greeks and someone posted the graph which goes to a lot of western philosophy and it said start with the republic. Plato isn't that hard to understand desu i was just confused about the noble lie

[Anonymous No.11745743]

>>11745736
>reading one critique of plato and being so pseud that they would rather be a contrarian than continue on their search to find the truth

[Anonymous No.11745761]

>>11745743
If you're looking for truth you won't find it with the greeks. What you can find is some ethics and basic political theory. That Plato was an aristocratic thinker however intimately colors his political theory, which helps to explain its elitist and idealist character.

[Anonymous No.11745765]

>>11745724
No i understood this like removing certain mythology and how a republic would work. I dont quite get tho how socrates talks about the nature of justice through the state i know he said justice is easier to observe on the larger state. But how will he five the definition of justice thoruhg the formation of the perfect state. Also in my opinion the perfect state was the one without the luxuries that one of them refereed to as a pig state

[Anonymous No.11745779]

Your peers are natural slaves and are not entitled to an opinion -t Plato

*τιπ*

[Anonymous No.11745796]

I know that feel OP. I think it's better to know when to keep quiet, especially if you're in a large class. It doesn't achieve anything. Leave it for your paper. But even then, I wouldn't write anything too controversial. Universities are far from the bastions of free thought they were upon their creation.

[Anonymous No.11745797]

>>11745286
>then we have to do the same thing for our founding fathers like Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson
leftists believe this

[Anonymous No.11745855]

>>11744898
I always thought that Plato wrote The Republic for more of a personal ethics guide than how to run a functioning government.

If only Critias was still around in full.

[Anonymous No.11745916]

>>11745543
Please, then, remember to add the part about our founding fathers.

>>11745797
If they believe it then tell them by their logic if you live in the United States and aren’t a fan of monkeys buttfucking each other in outer space you aren’t a fan of futuristic animal gay rights developed in year 2560 by the United States and that’s where this road leads, thinking that there is NO previous state of society that can be applicable to our present circumstances because it doesn’t ascribe to some significant morally superior stance that we haven’t reached yet.

And tell them the religious codes that society have adopted have stayed in force for such a long time because of superior moral values that have withstood this test of time, showing that licentious behavior like homosexuality degrades and ruins civilization, which is why these moral values exist. Clearly not all previous states of mind are incorrect if we see that licentious behavior ruins society and runs it into the ground like the Roman Empire.

[Anonymous No.11745929]

>>11745855
He did, The Laws is one he wrote for an actual state, on the other hand.

That one is very cool to read, very similar to the Old Testament

[Anonymous No.11745938]

Tell them that human rights are responsible for the Holocaust.

[Anonymous No.11745948]

>that guy who says "MORALS ARE SOCIAL CONSTRUCTS" and sits smugly back like he just blew everyone's mind

[Anonymous No.11745998]

>thinking the republic is actually about organizing a society

Both your professor and your classmates are brain dead

[Anonymous No.11746018]

>>11745948
Isn't that an argument that was btfo Locke et al. with their talk of Natural Rights?

[Anonymous No.11746022]

>>11745998
What is it about?

[Anonymous No.11746027]

>>11746022
constructing a framework in which the individual can begin to better themselves by moving towards understanding eternal forms such as Justice, Truth, Beauty, etc.

[Anonymous No.11746054]

>>11745948
they literally are though for better or worse

[Anonymous No.11746065]

>>11744973
In other words, you raise a valid point, but instead of challenging it I will say that The Republic is not actually about one of its principle topics, and therefore should not be assessed from that perspective.

Its a great way to defend any shitty example of ancient writing.

[Anonymous No.11746067]

>>11745047
Based on what we know and assuming Socrates died the way Plato describes he probably just wanted to get out of his shitty life and being the ultimate troll that he was, he mercilessly mocked the judges and then memed his students into thinking it was an act of virtue.

[Anonymous No.11746079]

>>11744898

> assuming the imagined kallipolis is supposed to be a model city-state, rather than primarily functioning as a model for the human soul.

Study Plato's Statesman and Laws also if you want a more informed account of his political philosophy per se.

[Anonymous No.11746080]

>>11746054
it's a non-statement in my opinion in the fact that it does nothing to advance any particular argument, and yet people say it as if it is some argument-ending logic.
We all know it to be a socially constructed thing, that doesn't mean it is without human value or meaning as human beings are in part constructed by the culture/society in which they are embedded. Arguing over morality already implicitly assumes both parties have a shared morality, or at least similar enough that there can be a basis for argument.
It's like people who say "race is a social construct" without following up on that. Yes, it is, that doesn't make it go away though.

[Anonymous No.11746132]

>>11746080
>Yes, it is, that doesn't make it go away though.
You're lucky vedanta anon isn't here. He would be deconstructing your post point by point in a great big wall of text, saying how wrong you are putting it along the lines of, something something Atma something something avidya, and probably quote a verse from the Upanishads.

[Anonymous No.11746148]

>>11746054
And isn't it a shame. Morality should be considered given from God or in any case bound on axioms. Being a social construct sounds like it gives credence to the idea of moral relativism, which no doubt must be what many of those idiots that say shit like that believe in.

[Anonymous No.11746363]

>>11746148
This

[Anonymous No.11746368]

>>11744898
Not a college psued but I encountered a psued for the first time recently. I was reading the Iliad and someone asked me what I was reading. I told him "Homer's Iliad" and he asked what it's about. I politely replied "It's an epic poem about the Trojan war, It's very good". "Oh". He says after a few seconds, "I don't get why people read fiction it seems like a waste of time, like, I get reading something that actually teaches you something but I don't understand why anybody would bother with stories..." So I tell him that I feel fiction can also be very 'educating' and can sometimes convey truth and knowledge that non-fiction can't as clearly. "Hmm... Have you ever heard of Jordan Peterson?" "Yeah, I've watched some of his lectures, they were pretty interesting." "Yeah, well he fights against political correctness and SJWs, like, this law in Canada that says you need to call transgenders certain pronouns, cuz, that's like, compelled speech, which is wrong." At this point, being the autiste that I am, I was too embarrassed to keep the conversation going and started stuttering and could feel my face turning red. God damn it, this is why I don't talk to people.

[Anonymous No.11746375]

>>11746368
You need to use paragraph breaks for changing speakers in dialogue or something man. Get your shit together

[Anonymous No.11746382]

>>11746375
On mobile and about to go to bed. I'm sure if you fags can handle Pynchon you can handle this simple linear dialogue. Should be obvious who the speaker is.

[Anonymous No.11746385]

>>11746027
obviously it's not about organizing the society, the very explicit premise is that by constructing a society we can more easily understand virtues (by being expressed in rhythm/harmony etc). that's not some cuttingly presient reading of the book lol

[Anonymous No.11746408]

tough being based conservative tbqh desu

[Anonymous No.11746441]

>>11744898
so this... is the power of the enlightenment

[Anonymous No.11746469]

>>11745948
>>11746148
This is the elevated /lit/ I like

[Anonymous No.11746504]

>>11745916
Are you implying the Roman Empire fell because there was too much gay sex? I seriously hope not.

[Anonymous No.11746515]

>>11746368
>"It only has value if it teaches you something"

I hate this argument. Ask him if he plays video games, "muh it improves reflexes" Lol, ok bro

[Anonymous No.11747182]

>>11744898
conflating a man to his ideas is an expression of stone-age kneejerk reaction of "man cant have good idea if man did bad thing"
also if they actually read all of republic instead of some exerpts they would know he wasnt saying that the ruler cant be stopped or doesnt have a concious towards his subjects

[Anonymous No.11747514]

>>11746515
Video games and sports can satisfy our primal urges to hunt.

[Anonymous No.11747656]

I'm stuck in classes with pseuds discussing philo for at least one more semester. Stop as soon as you can. If I wasn't several thousand dollars deep, I would be dropping the major entirely. Read in your own time.

[Anonymous No.11747672]

>>11746504
Read Gibbons

[Anonymous No.11747683]

>>11746132
"vedanta-anon" here, 95% of the time I post about vedanta and the Upanishads it's in response to specific questions about it that other people ask, the only time I'm even mildly confrontational is if someone posts a blatantly incorrect statement that I can refute with sources. I don't know why you feel the need to bring me up in a totally unrelated thread, try refining your own arguments and knowledge so that the next time we debate you actually have a chance instead of getting so butthurt that you dont have to attack me in random threads

>nothing personal kid

[Anonymous No.11747704]

>>11745929
Laws was fucking retarded, hard to believe it was even the same dude. He goes from condemning the death of Socrates to suggesting someone be murdered for stealing a fucking apple

[Anonymous No.11747714]

>>11746504
It didn’t cause it but rather was a symptom of the corruption beneath. The same can be seen with pedophilia in aincent greek society just before the fall and the rising act to make pedophilia acceptable today.

[Anonymous No.11747716]

>>11744898
Hi! First year is full of students that talk too much and know too little. There's nothing wrong with that, though. Have fun here, because as you get deeper in, people get more knowledgeable, and less inclined to argue heatedly, because all known arguments and rebuttals are already documented. As people get smarter, they become quieter, out of fear of making mistakes. Dunning Kruger effect and all that.

Political theory would probably have some of the most contentious disagreements, so strap yourself in for some fun! Plato is the father of philosophy, so obviously he is quite an essential figure. However, his ideas are somewhat dated, so it's a great place to find disagreement in. Many philosophers have done the very same thing (read some Aristotle!).

[Anonymous No.11747723]

>>11746080
>doesn't make it go away though
Except it literally does. Race only exists insofar as other people recognize it. If nobody discriminated on race it would cease to exist. Yes your eyes still see skin color but it would lose significance. Imagine we judged everyone who wore the color red and it was called redism. If that hypothetical judgment stopped it would just be the normal world then.

[Anonymous No.11747765]

>>11744898
>he sacred INDIVIDUAL is neglected; the guardian is not allowed to own precious private property,
i thought lolbergs were not in humanities? wtf

[Anonymous No.11747880]

>>11747704
Murder was never a punishment except in cases of matricide or patricide... that was one of the most striking features of The Laws.

Make sure you pay attention and take notes whenever you read things, children.

[Anonymous No.11748116]

>>11744898
>I had to read a book but did not do it.
>classmates say Plato is an idiot
>what do you guys think that i should say so that it sounds as if I read it?
>secretly I spend my time eating shit out of a strippers anus.


.....

[Anonymous No.11748642]

>>11748116
i did read the book, and had my own retorts to their critiques - i was simply offering /lit/ the chance to visualize themselves in that situation as an intellectual exercise

[Anonymous No.11748716]

>>11748642
>i did read the book, and had my own retorts to their critiques - i was simply offering /lit/ the chance to visualize themselves in that situation as an intellectual exercise

I prefer my version where you did not read it.

Plato destroys the political system that we have today even though in a way he advocates it (partly; I think his writing should be read more as a diary then a proclamation of what is best).

Thomas Jefferson has made an addition to it by stating that political parties are the downfall of democracy.

[Anonymous No.11748724]

Hmm it's almost like they maybe read it and didn't even bother to try and understand anything. Really activates my almonds...

[Anonymous No.11748748]

>>11748724
>Hmm it's almost like they maybe read it and didn't even bother to try and understand anything. Really activates my almonds...
Welcome to my hatred for people who study philosophy or psychology... Can bitch at them all day long but their ego goes then but I got this paper that says bachelor or master degree; do you have this? No? Lol!!!! Nothing you say I'll accept (which is like the exact point where they show how idiot they are)

[Anonymous No.11749415]

how can anyone read plato without feeling flustered and annoyed at the lack of definitional or logical rigor?

socrates: assert bizarre premise without attempting to find a contradiction
foil: yes, that seems perfectly reasonable
>ad nauseum

[Anonymous No.11749576]

>>11749415
It works well in Symposium. But I wish the Republic was closer to Apology where it was just Socrates talking with less "dialogue"

[Anonymous No.11749744]

>>11745190
>just