/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11643441]

>No interesting greek threads on Lit right now

Aeschylus, Euripides, or Sophocles?

Which one was best, guys?

[Anonymous No.11643456]

Also, post favorite passages, like this one:

(Agamemnon, ~1005)

[Anonymous No.11644616]

>>11643441

b-bump

[Anonymous No.11644692]

Was Sophocles' Philoctetes a metaphor for the changing values in athenian society?
I feel like this distinction of the moralities of Ulysses and Neoptolemos reflects what was happening in Athens way too closely, you've got Ulysses with his "do whatever must be done" morality which clashes with Neoptolemos "always doing what's right" stance, which to me represents the old athenian morality of doing whatever the fuck you want only caring about the results opposing the newer thought currents like Socrates', who was more about pursuing some kind of virtue disregarding everything else. Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.11644737]

It might also be a story of age and youth or high-class morality vs freeman morality.

Although of godly blood and a prince, Neoptolemus was not a father, had no household to return to, and was not a king of many men. He's both more rustic (from his upbringing) and cosmopolitan only in the sense that he's been raised on the possibly more refined versions of heroic stories. He's never been to war, he's in no rush to bring the war to an end by any means necessary, and he might still believe that the good, the beautiful, honor and glory all converge on the battlefield. In short, he can be read as a NAIVE young man. Odysseus differs in every way.

I think Odysseus and his actions are distasteful and he makes Neoptolemus look good by comparison, but I think the Greeks needed both kinds of men to bring the war to an end and maintain any sort of pride in themselves- Odysseus does what's necessary, Neoptolemus gives the audience hope that the next generation won't be completely stained by the dirtiness of war.

I don't think Sophocles meant for us to pick one set of values over another. Odysseus and Neoptolemus come from two different times and walks of life. Neoptolemus could easily be Odysseus, one day.

[Anonymous No.11644946]

Euripides was the most influential, but I think Aeschylus was the best poet

[Anonymous No.11645670]

>>11644737

True. But it's (in a lot of cases) the cunning of the ruler such as Odysseus that made the Athenians as capable as they were. Much of the Pelopponesian war, I think, can be seen as a study in how the greek's ability to charm their own senses of virtue into doing something beyond morality (stealing the bow).

In my opinion the true story is, as with all tragedy, the folly that lies with the two men, and what they mean for Athenian governance. At the end of the day, it is Heracles that saves them, not either of their two characters, which you very well painted out. It becomes yet another moment in the epic (or in this case, this isolated play) where the rule of the heavens and what is human made godly and errorful therefore that makes the scene's wheels turn, and the war come to an end.

What could supplant Heracles in this situation? Odysseus should kill Philoctetes, or Philoctetes should never have let him stay on the island in the first place. Both are unsavory, but they accomplish the same goal, and show that a medium in leadership is hard for the true end, and with the impossibility of assured divine intervention by the Gods (whose wills are arbitrary and notably amoral at times), virtue becomes something like that of the 2nd book of the republic; merciless, and divinely shrouded as in this play through the involved divine agent only to save the audience from being told that the strong must overpower the weak.

This turned into quite the ramble on the divine in the play, but those are my thoughts.

[Anonymous No.11645707]

>>11645670

[Anonymous No.11645763]

Euripides is the best but Oedipus at Colonus is the best play

[Anonymous No.11646107]

>>11644946
Right, I now he may not be the overall best of the three, however, I always liked the way he threats tragedy as a divine force, a reckoning that can't be postponed. The Oresteia will always be one of the best plays.

[Anonymous No.11646340]

>>11646107

>one of the best plays

It's three plays (technically four).

>lit

[Anonymous No.11646471]

>>11643441
Sophocles and it isn't even close

[Anonymous No.11646476]

>>11646471
It's Aeschylus

[Anonymous No.11646761]

Oedipus>Oresteia>Persians

[Anonymous No.11646917]

>>11646471
For poetry, clearly this. That said, Euripides feels far less remote- plays like Bacchae, Hippolytis, Alcestis are far more accessible, and therefore more interesting, when one is young.

[Anonymous No.11648167]

>>11644692
I thought Odysseus was the old-fashioned one. He desperately wants that kleos, and will lie and steal to get it.
Neoptolemos (unlike the older generation) ends up convinced that he shouldn't join the war with those mean men.
But then Hercules... As you know. I think it is (like all greek plays) very pious (in that sense old-fashioned, at that time). I can't see it takes any clear stance on the idea of virtue as found in "The Republic" or "Meno".
BTW Protagoras would have agreed with Neoptolemos.

[Anonymous No.11648347]

Justice? More like Just Ass!