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/lit/ - Literature

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11624823 No.11624823[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

so we all know literature is a dying art form. what do you think will take its place as top art? VNs? unironically i think there is a lot of potential for VNs.

>> No.11624825

Video games have already taken over on the top, and won't relinguish their position any time soon.

>> No.11624855

>>11624823
There's no potential for VNs. Even something like Subahibi is just smut with a veneer of literature on it. It's one of my favorite VNs but it's not remotely on the level of great literature.

>> No.11624890

>>11624823
VNs were never really a serious 'art form' to begin with since the entire medium is built off of selling escapist fantasies to manchildren with lots of money. Even the most serious of VNs will always foremost use cute girls as a way to market, your pic included. I don't really think there's anything wrong with this, but this makes it pretty hard for me to really consider VNs as a serious art form even if there are some that I'm fond of since the medium is restricted on selling fantasies rather than trying to create something unique.

>> No.11624907
File: 27 KB, 220x273, 220px-Planescape-torment-box.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11624907

>>11624855
>>11624890
It's really not what we've seen of the VNs so far, but rather what you can do with them. I see no reason you couldn't make a well-written and gripping story in visual novel format, one where the "player" can themselves influence the way the story ends and is told, if only people were willing to give it a shot.

You saying VN has no potential because of all the smut we've seen of it so far, is kind of like a caveman saying art on the whole has no potential because these cave paintings are all just a bunch of cows and humans with huge dicks and boobs.

>> No.11624911

>>11624907
The merit of VNs compared to the regular books is not "influencing the way the story ends and is told", but visuals and, especially, music.
>>11624890
>selling fantasies rather than trying to create something unique
Those aren't mutually exclusive. To make a great VN you would need great artists working on it, as simple as that.

>> No.11624914

>>11624911
Well it certainly restricts what can be made if you need to have the majority of the cast be a bunch of cute virgin high school girls in order for anyone to buy your game, correct?

>> No.11624919

>>11624907
Dude pst is so damn good, I absolutely love the writing in that game.
It's such an incredibly unique setting.

There are a couple of standout scenes that I remember, that one in the sensorium in the stone where you experience the same conversation from 3 different perspectives (The current Nameless one, the previous incarnation of TNO, and Deionarra), and that bit inside the crystal near the end where you have to convince your two previous incarnations to merge with yourself.

>>11624911
PST is basically as close to a VN as you can possible get without setting out to make one. And putting the player in control of and responsible for the actions of the main character does fundamentally change how that narrative is experienced in comparison to if it were a written novel. To get the most out of PST you have to mentally engage with the writing, and if you fail to do so you won't have access to some of the best written content in the game. This isn't true of a book.

>> No.11624920

This is an off-topic thread that belongs on /v/ or /a/ more than it does /lit/. It's not a /lit/erature related thread just because you say literature is a dying art form and then fucking wobble on about how your anime video games are high art. Literally fuck off.

>> No.11624923

subahibi sucks

>> No.11624926

>>11624919
>>11624907
it's a shame that the UI in that game is a fucking mess.

Also if you don't mentally engage with the writing of a book, how are you going to appreciate the prose, thematic development, character depth and subtle plot points such as foreshadowing, symbolism/imagery and structure?

I'm not keen on Planescape Torment as a game but I have heard good things about its writing, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Classic literature in general is better written than Planescape.

>> No.11624935

>>11624926
>Also if you don't mentally engage with the writing of a book, how are you going to appreciate the prose, thematic development, character depth and subtle plot points such as foreshadowing, symbolism/imagery and structure?
And who says you can't mentally engage with a visual novel? If anything, the fact that you can actually have a say in its events - instead of merely turning the page - should hold potential for even more engagement, provided the story itself is actually good and the gameplay supports it instead of getting in the way.

>> No.11624948

>>11624935
Yeah hypothetically that's true but most VNs aren't particularly well written in the first place nor do they offer the variety available in classic literature. I'm not saying VNs don't have the potential to offer well-written and engaging experiences, but it's also a completely different medium. The interactive element is usually more important than the writing from my experience with VNs.

>> No.11624964

>>11624926
>it's a shame that the UI in that game is a fucking mess.
Yeah it helps if you've played other similar games before, otherwise it's a bit impenetrable mechanics/ui wise. But it's not that bad compared to other rpg's of it's time.

Sure you won't appreciate the qualities of a novel if you don't engage with it, but a book won't place literal roadblocks in your way. PST is kinda like a puzzle, where you use your knowledge about the world and the way it works to interact with the world and access more written content. If your engagement does not live up to what the game expects, you'll have access to less and lower quality writing.

No shit it doesn't live up to classic literature, nobody expects it to. PST only has to compete against fantasy, and it's better written than half of what /sffg/ talks about.

>> No.11624971

>>11624948
>The interactive element is usually more important than the writing from my experience with VNs.
Lot's of them completely lack interactivity, it's not a requirement of the medium at all. The problems aren't that they prioritize interactivity over good writing, it's that the writing is mostly shit.
Even good/enjoyable VN's have shit writing.

>> No.11624973

>>11624823
but most vns are utter trash tbqh desu, esp nowadays since a lot of good authors have left the industry and now write LNs or events for fgo lmao

>> No.11624977

>>11624964
I'll give Planescape another chance but that UI is a pain in the ass. I've played other games like Baldur's Gate, Diablo 2, Wasteland, Nox and they all have much better designed UIs.

Also fair enough, I like the idea of a game making you pay attention to what is said and providing obstacles to be overcome by what has been said.

>> No.11624978

>>11624823

You spend too much time here. It's obviously TV.

>> No.11624986

>>11624973
VNs don't sell as well as they used to.

>> No.11624990
File: 24 KB, 220x293, 220px-Grim_Fandango_artwork.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11624990

Besides Planescape Torment, if you're looking for games carried by their stories and that could well challenge traditional literature, check out the old LucasArts games, in particular Monkey Island series and Grim Fandango.

>> No.11624998

Mediums are changing all the time, the discourse is held in all of them at once.

Tommorow's great art is penetrating as many of these spheres at the same time.

>> No.11625004

Video games will never be art. Visual novels are a video game and thus will never be art. The reason is that the medium itself is intrinsically low-brow. The idea of an actual high-brow video game is an oxymoron.

>> No.11625003

>>11624977
It's biggest problem is inconsistency, and the fact that you need to do some metagaming to access some of the best writing.
Change class to a mage, it's just better because the mage skills (INT, WIS) also help you in dialog often. Also just max Wisdom/Intelligence at character creation.

It's honestly fine to look up a guide at points, especially for some of the more obscure things you have to do to access bits of the story.

>> No.11625006

>>11625004
t. hasn't read icycalm

>> No.11625013

>>11624990
I love the world in grim fandango, but damn the puzzles FUCKING SUCK.
They are so damn obtuse, that this game just wasn't fun to play. Adventure games are dead for a reason.

>> No.11625014

>>11625006
I'm sure this means something to someone.

>> No.11625028

>>11624823
In 30 years, avant garde soundcloud trap will be the most patrician artform

>> No.11625030

>>11625013

>Adventure games are dead for a reason.

They're not though.

>> No.11625031

>>11625014
video games isn't art; art is video games.
true!

>> No.11625037

>>11625031
shut up wilde

>> No.11625041

>>11625030
LucasArts and Sierra have long since stopped making adventure games. The genre may not be dead, but it's not truly alive either: it's undead, a shambling corpse still carrying a vague semblance of its life and warmth, yet ultimately but a mockery of what it once was.

>> No.11625048

>>11625030
I mean yeah there are still some devs producing them, but they have almost no market presence. Nobody is buying them, nobody is talking about them, nobody is playing them outside of a tiny irrelevant community.

>> No.11625077

>>11625003
Will do that, thanks anon

>> No.11625164
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11625164

>> No.11625198

>>11624986
I don't know how much they sell now but vns have always been a niche with low sales

>> No.11625205

>>11625198
They used to sell more in comparison to other games, back in the day, but nowadays the AAA action-adventure blockbusters have taken over the entire medium, bringing in more and more "gamers" and leaving all other genres to suffer and starve with their dedicated but small fanbases - like a fat ugly kid that gorges everything given to him and squishes all other children underneath where they can never be seen.

>> No.11625211

>>11625164
that's not romeo tho...

>> No.11625242

>>11624823
>so we all know literature is a dying art form
What makes you say this?
If anything you can reach way more people now as a writer. Just because it's not all paperbacks doesn't mean text stopped existing.

>> No.11625332

What about VR, actually what if VR and visual novels were combined?

>> No.11625346

>>11625332
Then you will get harem anime where you're the protagonist. It is inevitable.