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/lit/ - Literature

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11590872 No.11590872 [Reply] [Original]

Was he right about all traditions having a common source? That there's one true human religion with many traditions?

>> No.11590885 [DELETED] 

>>11590872
>That there's one true human religion with many traditions?
I'll direct you to
>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc. If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/. If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/. Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but ideally those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer.

>> No.11590890
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11590890

Yes.

>> No.11590933

It's possible. I haven't seen any knockout arguments for it but a compelling historical narrative can be built to support the idea.

>> No.11590948

>>11590872
>Was he right about all traditions having a common source?
Perhaps
>That there's one true human religion with many traditions?
Switch the words tradition and religion, and you got it.

>> No.11590953

>>11590872
There's no way to know it.

>> No.11590969

>>11590872
No him and his ilk are retarded hacks who fell too hard for the orientalist meme. What kind of retard comes up with the idea that there is some extra-human force called capital-T ‘Tradition’ that exists above and through actual human traditions.

>> No.11590972

As a Christian I'm obviously biased but I think there was a similar start for every religion and all contain some truth but Christianity has the ultimate divine truth.

>> No.11590990

>>11590872
Not a historical source such as an actual group of people but he meant it in the way that the ultimate truth is eternal and that all of the genuinely 'revealed' religions reflect this truth in one way or another in some aspect or section of their doctrines. An illustrative metaphor would be a radio station being broadcast since the beginning of the universe and that occasionally through divine intervention people have this revealed to them or in even rarer cases they can figure it out through deep contenplation.

>> No.11590991

>>11590872
yes but he is wrong about a lot of other things

it's called Primitive Revelation, and Paul Schebesta/Wilhelm Schmidt/the rest of the Anthropos magazine crew explained it in a far better way, with solid grounding.

>> No.11591000

>>11590969
people who don't get caught on superficial doctrinal differences like some pseud flytrap

>> No.11591018

>>11590885
Kill yourself. I mean that, unironically.

>> No.11591035

>>11591018
I'm not the one posting off topic threads :^)

>> No.11591040

>>11591035
It's not off-topic though. Guenon was an author, this idea was presented in the book Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines.

>> No.11591042

>>11591000
Perennial idiot who got caught up by primitive human pattern-seeking. Muh similaritie! Yes so what? There are also superficial similarities that hide deeper unresolvable contradictions, which dumb freaks fall for when they have basic encounters with foreign religions. You can’t really dive deep into any of these traditions without respecting their particularity. There is not much room for muddling and mixing the practice of spiritual traditions without eradicating something fundamental in each of them. Consider the limpness of Baha’i. It is much more coherent to consider one religion true above all and try to integrate the others into it like some Thomas Merton or Christ the eternal Tao shit than to try and float through them all like some deracinated disinterested arbiter of eternal tradition.

>> No.11591044

>>11591018
This desu, but uniornically

>> No.11591049

>>11591040
>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/
Given that this thread is about "one true human religion with many traditions," it sounds to me like it belongs in /his/

>> No.11591050

>>11591042
not talking about pseud hippie syncretism

engage with ideas or don't engage at all, ive digested and overcome these concerns years ago. study harder

>> No.11591052

>>11591049
Good thing your ignorance isn't what decides what's on or off topic then.

>> No.11591062

>>11591052
I mean your thread is basically "Let's talk about common elements of religion" and a picture of Guenon. It belongs in /his/, post it there dumb faggot.

>> No.11591065

>>11591062
How about no. Just hide the thread if it pains you so, my friend.

>> No.11591086

>>11591065
Why are you so against posting it on /his/? An historical examination of different religious traditions seems much more relevant to the history board than the literature board. You might receive warm welcomes!

>> No.11591091

>>11591086
I'm not against posting it on /his/, I'm just against not posting it on /lit/. Por que no los dos?

>> No.11591095

>>11591091
Because:
>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/.

>> No.11591097

>>11591042
Is liberalism a religion?

>> No.11591105

>>11591095
k

>> No.11591110

>>11591042
Traditionalism doesn't do that though. It says to become initiated into a particular culture's religion.

>> No.11591111

>>11591050
Enlightenment through deep contemplation, aah yes sir.

Have you looked in to any occult texts? Liber Nox for example?

I might be able to relate with you...

>> No.11591122

>Tradition is inherently orthodox
>Gnosticism wasn't Traditional because it was heterodox
>But the Catholic church is exoteric and thus empty
What was his problem?

>> No.11591125

>>11590872
>Was he right about all traditions having a common source? That there's one true human religion with many traditions?
He parts with that premise a priori and force fits all religions to agree with it, discarding any contradictions as "corruptions". How convenient.

>> No.11591127

>>11591111
ive been studying this stuff for years

>> No.11591147

If, as perennialists put it, the religious experience is beyond form, then any doctrinal description cannot be the capital-t Truth. Therefore you cannot judge religions on how well they conform to capital-t Tradition as by your own terms Tradition is an impossibility. You hence fall into anti-representationalism and might as well be reading Nietzsche instead of the Vedas for the same insights. If we are all divine, and if Truth is perennially perceptible, then why would we assume only ancient philosophers have seen the Truth? They may have ascended to higher levels of truth, not the Truth, but certainly a more scientifically informed truth. As the Vedas say, "Truth is one, though the prophets know it by many names..." Perhaps you have gotten too caught up in a hatred of modern names. There are numerous modern authors with stunning insights that align quite well with certain religious approaches. They are certainly much more relevant to the modern day person than muh adi sankara as well. I fear traditionalism appeals to the superstitious and reactionary. Supertstitiously they believe in an age of great saints and even miracle workers unlike our own era despite the fact that humans have changed very little. Furthermore, it is often serruptitiously guilty of ressentiment and a desire to turn back the clocks to a time of xenophobia and sexism and classism. The sad part is, they might get what they want if the world collapses into another dark age...

>> No.11591155

>>11591147
>There are numerous modern authors with stunning insights that align quite well with certain religious approaches
Can you recommend me some? I'm interested.

>> No.11591166

>>11591147
>Furthermore, it is often serruptitiously guilty of ressentiment and a desire to turn back the clocks to a time of xenophobia and sexism and classism.

I was sort of with you until here

modern authors hit on these same insights because any great mind is going to arrive at more or less the same grasp of the ultimate nature of reality, but no, there's almost no one out there alive today who can communicate metaphysical principles at the level of sankara et al

>> No.11591182
File: 134 KB, 500x281, 46D06205-1E6C-4495-A21D-6D6CDE290075.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11591182

>>11591155

>> No.11591185

>>11591182
So there aren't any, gotcha

>> No.11591194

>>11591155
Jordan Peterson, for one.

>> No.11591200

>>11591194
>*Carl Jung
ftfy

>> No.11591209

>>11591166
How do you know these metaphysical premises that Sankara hits upon are true? Because you practice a tradition? Because you have had a moment of realization? How do you argue against the fact that your mystical experience could be a brain malfunction? Or influenced by your reading of traditionalism? Moreover, so-called metaphysical insight is often inapplicable to the everyday world... What good does it do to believe we are all one? Has it changed the way you operate in the world? Even if it leads to a subjective betterment of personal state, one might say this too does not prove any sort of metaphysical truth to the beliefs. Might be a convenient placebo.

>> No.11591213

>>11590972
i hope this is a jokeposter

>> No.11591224

>>11591209
>How do you argue against the fact that your mystical experience could be a brain malfunction?

the fact you have to ask this means you don't really understand what you're trying to refute

I don't really feel like writing you my life story to answer your post. your criticisms are non-criticisms. and yes I've noticed actual irl gains in my life

>> No.11591228

>>11591213
For real dude. How can you not believe Eastern religion is better than Western religion? Must be a serious jokester. Mom and dad were Christian and that ain't cool. I smoke pot and read Sankara cause I'm a rebel mystic. It doesn't matter that I'm an unemployed racist with no girlfriend, I'm enlightened, and they merely fear my metaphysical insight.

>> No.11591232

There's only one true (correct) religion but don't lump me in with the pagans

>> No.11591235

>>11591224
>you don't really understand what you're trying to refute
Try me. Surely you can explain your position without writing your stupid life story.
>and yes I've noticed actual irl gains in my life
And if you were literate you would realize that means nothing.

>> No.11591267

>>11591235
the basic idea is a centrality of consciousness and renunciation of your habitual "imagization" or thematization of the world, the cultivation of a continuity of self in and through the processuality of experience. basically, I'm trying to achieve a constancy in myself that doesn't turn to mush when a girl compliments me or someone gives me shit - in other words, I don't want to be a creature of my circumstances, acting and thinking differently depending on the conditions outside of me at the moment, I want control over my own self rather than these things exerting their pull over me. this is what nirvana is - the extinction of the charge the Other has in you. not that I've achieved that.

anyways practicing this I've noticed its legit. I'm more disciplined, I write at a higher level, I'm slowly de-programming my habitual responses to everything, my automatism, I'm able to take a step back from my determinisms, able to see the self-concepts on which all my automatic reactions are based - if I get my jimmies rustled cause someone called me a faggot on 4chan after putting my heart and soul in some le deep philosophy post its because the part of me I consider deep and intellectual and enlightened is being rejected by the Other and I react negatively to that, when the whole point is to precisely give up any simping affectivity like that. So I nip the response in the bud. not to mention my awareness of death, the power to appreciate the little things, the power to snap out of the frame of competition and struggle that determines so many people into being miserable, etc.

>> No.11591284

>>11591267
Sounds like stoicism, no? Why pick up all the non-dual we are all god and reincarnation is real bullshit that has nothing to do with achieving equilibrium? Your use of the terminology of Otherness betrays that your enlightenment has been without modern influence as well... Anyway, you still have not explained your position on why Tradition is True. No mystical insight? You basically sound like you're saying vedanta is just really good self-help books. Also that you're an insecure pussy.

>> No.11591296

>>11591284
who said I was enlightened

because Stoicism's ceiling is lower than Tradition's: take this process far enough and you'll quickly overshoot Stoic tranquility.

do you think I'm going to talk about personally significant spiritual experiences with someone whose just trying to tear them down? no.

>> No.11591392

>>11591122
The problem with gnosticism are its doctrinal errors. That mught not even necessarily apply to every group lables as gnostic. Manichaen dualism (evil material world versus good spiritual world), would be considered a doctrinal error, unless the tradition that espouses it acknowledges the relativity of the view and that a higher perspective is possible

>> No.11591414

>>11591296
No one said you were enlightened. Nor would I claim myself such a title. But often times people who think they stumbled upon hidden truth act pretentiously as if they are enlightened... is not Traditionalism exactly that sort of alleged hidden truth? I merely feel you have gone astray. You have been seduced by falsity. As, I am sure, you feel I have done the same. I like to believe in philosophy as conceived by Plato. That we can come to better understanding through dialectic and reasoning. You seem to be afraid to expose your ideas to reason. Or perhaps you imagine them beyond reason. I suppose our argument ends here. Your inability to admit you might be incorrect is what is most disturbing. Pity the mind unable to entertain an idea without accepting it. Goodnight.

>> No.11591418

>>11591147
>The sad part is, they might get what they want if the world collapses into another dark age...
Based...

>> No.11591427

>>11591147
>If, as perennialists put it, the religious experience is beyond form, then any doctrinal description cannot be the capital-t Truth
No. Because Traditionalism is premised on the validity of symbolism. This is a major portion of Guenon's thought which you have seemed to pass over or be unaware of. There is believed to be a REAL ANALOGY between symbol and symbolized, and this applies to a variety of symbolic things, such as ritual gestures and words of sacred languages (so no only visual/artistic symbols). Otherwise Tradition would be pointless if it could not serve as a real support for transcendant realization.

The insights of modern authors have no initiatic significance (another important aspect of traditionalist thought which is too mych to go into here), and most are purely cerebral anyway.

You got a lot more reading to do before you get Guenon. It's worth the effort imo.

>> No.11591433

>>11591414
>agrees with Plato but not with Tradition

buddy you don't know what planet you're on.

>> No.11591456

>>11591392
Valentinianism was not dualistic; Quispel called it Advaita Vedanta. It is only "heterodox" from the point of view that Catholicism is "orthodox," which is a nonsensical position from the perspective of Tradition.

>> No.11591474

>>11591427
>The insights of modern authors have no initiatic significance (another important aspect of traditionalist thought which is too mych to go into here), and most are purely cerebral anyway.
Who initiated the first initiator? Did man or monkeys come up with the first tradition? Do native american shamans have true initiatic lineage? Do you deny modern cosmology and evolution? Why cannot one self-initiate? Surely someone must have self-initiated at some point?
>You got a lot more reading to do before you get Guenon. It's worth the effort imo.
Already read Guenon. He is babby's first eastern philosophy.
>>11591433
I don't believe in reincarnation or a cyclical universe or that the west is degenerate or that there is no spirituality left but I do believe in a living western tradition of philosophy that has not only grown but gone beyond itself throughout history culminating in our relatively privileged position of being able to read so many sacred texts.

>> No.11591503

>>11591474
ive attacked my own views from a million different angles, far more rigorusly than anything you've posted in this thread. asking if these insights are just placebos is like asking if the lucidity of consciousness I experience during/after meditation is just a placebo - if it is, the distinction is meaningless.

western philosophy is just the articulation of Eastern emptiness, Hegel's entire system is just the architecture of discursion, the self-moving Spirit as what assimilates contingency to its self-identity, the Neoplatonic epistrophe is a negative movement mirrored by the role negativity plays in the soteriology of Boehme and Eckhart, the soul divests itself of itself (read: its identification with the world, the otherness within it) to find itself, mysticism is a self-negation that is simultaneously a self-negation

>> No.11591508

>>11591503
simultaneously a self-consolidation*

>> No.11591583

>>11590990
This. The divine truths are within us and through effort, luck, or other means, we can be pushed deep into ourselves and experience these truths. People then resurface and put these truths in forms accessible to their culture. These expressions are corrupted, inevitably, from the very start, and even more corrupted over time as dogma, misinterpretations, and so on spring up about them.

Guenon is far from the only one who has spoken of the “perennial philosophy”.

>>11591042
Anyone can point out differences autistically, it doesn’t require as much of an intellect as that which notices the similarities between seemingly different things. What you’re missing is that it’s not the outer forms of religions which can be reconciled but their esoteric and mystical aspects which meet.

>>11591433
Underrated post. Plato was a mystic.

>> No.11591837

>>11591583
If people are not open to ancient texts in sanskrit and hebrew and greek and latin because it is inaccessible then why not recreate the traditional doctrines in modern terminology to aid mass enlightenment?

>> No.11591924

>>11591049
/his/ is awful for philosophy. Just take a look at that thread on logic and you'll understand why