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/lit/ - Literature

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11588916 No.11588916[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Thoughts

>"A fierce debate has broken out in US literary circles after the progressive magazine the Nation apologised for publishing a poem in which a white poet assumes a black vernacular."

Are they right to criticize him?

He posted an apology on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/AndersWeePoet/status/1021794320435699712/

>> No.11588920

Thank God I'm a mestizo without western European blood, I would be ashamed of being called white.

>> No.11588923
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11588923

The first response is fucking hilarious

https://twitter.com/DisDeafUprising/status/1022311129152925696

>> No.11588949

Imagine if dfw was writing in this period and how his massive failure at writing in ebonics would have been received

>> No.11588950

>>11588923
>disabled uprising
My sides.

>> No.11588963

As long as all people cannot share in language equally, they will not be socially equal.

>> No.11588969

>>11588923
Her argument doesn’t have any legs

>> No.11588971

>>11588923
>Eye opening
>Racist against blind people

>> No.11588974

So what he did was use black American words? That's just laughable. Words aren't the property of one cultural group.

>> No.11588978

>>11588971
Yeah, it's in reference to asians

>> No.11588989
File: 58 KB, 440x473, sup.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11588989

>>11588916
sup homies heres the poem aight

>> No.11588995

>>11588974
Fina oughta be niqqa

>> No.11589005

>>11588989
Is this Jordan Peterson' self-help for black people?

>> No.11589023

>>11588989
Ban this sick filth

>> No.11589055

>>11588923
I'm a deaf nationalist and this is fucking retarded. A deconstructed concept is not inherently harmful. Nor that it's possible to apologize for ALL of the facets that one presents in any chosen word.

>> No.11589057

>>11588989
something about his picture and i'm getting Knausguard vibes

>> No.11589088

>>11589055
I wonder how they would deal with something like the Three Wise Monkeys. It's super ableism, but calling it out would be racist towards the culture of some brown people.

>> No.11589103

>>11588923
Jesus, I feel really bad for the poet. He humbly apologizes and this bitch just continues to shit on him.
Really hope this retarded thinking dies out soon.

>> No.11589126

>>11589088
Lol yeah. I do recognize the usefulness of deconstruction, but I think that abusing deconstruction to derive moral values from literally everything that insults you and only you is pretty fucking dumb.

>> No.11589163

>>11588989
Is this for real? This is pure garbage.

Then again, almost all modern ''poetry'' is garbage.

>> No.11589189

>>11589126
People like them would be standard bigots, if they didn't had a special interest perspective to peddle their hate from.

>> No.11589216

>>11588989
This man is clearly a racist and should be excommunicated.

>> No.11589231

>>11588949
>google "wardine be cry" and every single result is people criticizing it. DFW would have been #metoo'd and called a Nazi in this day. He would have been driven to suicide for a valid reason, not the fake problems that drove him to do it back then.

>> No.11589235

>>11589231
That wasn't supposed to be greentexted.

>> No.11589245

Just imagine being an American. Just TRY to imagine living in their sick world.

>> No.11589246

>>11588920
fpbp

>> No.11589277

>>11589189
I don't disagree. I proudly embrace being a bigot against hearing "people".

>> No.11589312

>>11589277
I have been so surprised about how many horrible deaf people I have met in my life. You would think that they would be nice and open people, but they use their disability for fraud, and social dominance, all the time. On top of that they seem to have a irrational hate for people with hearing (To the extent that some don't want to get their children's deafness treated).

I'm sure that most deaf people are wonderful people. But I have never experienced the same cut-throat indifference to other people, from different disabled persons, as I have with deafs.

Is deaf-culture problematic?

>> No.11589322

>>11589312
Well, it's not our fault that you're not even a human.

>> No.11589341

>>11589312
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKe0x5Klan0

>> No.11589355

>>11589312
Ok seriously tho, how are deaf people committing fraud if they receive their deserved social benefits for being disabled? Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but yeah. Also, deaf people are people believe it or not.

They refuse to "treat" (treating is a very generous word as that cochlear implant and bone conduction implant will actually make you deafer) their children because 1) tech is imperfect 2) it doesn't resolve the root issue 3) sign language is objectively superior to spoken language 4) they want to express their intended phenotype to continue their genetic lineage. I do find it hypocritical that hearing people complain about deaf people trying to dominate when they are the one who is dominating the world.

>> No.11589400

>>11588989
I actually thought it was pretty good.

The faux-vernacular language is really clumsy though, I see what he's trying to do but it's not very well executed. He also should have pointed out that it's not "black" vernacular, it's shitty English that you could just as easily imagine as a redneck accent.

>> No.11589423

>>11589355
In my country there is a case unravelling right now, about sign-translators and deafs committing fraud by drawing benefits for fake translation hours, and splitting the cash. It's a huge case, and the fraud is well organized.
I went to class with a deaf girl, that had government paid homework-help. The help entailed taking notes for the deaf girl. But she shamed the guy doing it, to do most of the homework for him. It took me a year to recognize how toxic and contentious she was. Just because she was blind people gave her so much slack.

I have worked with people with autism, spastic people, and people with developmental issues. And I have never seen or heard of fraud in the scale I have seen with deaf people. I those disable communities there is only inclusion and accept of all people. It's been the opposite in my experience with the deafs.

>Also, deaf people are people believe it or not.
This is true, but disabilities tend give people the experience they need figure out that all people should be respected. Maybe deafness is not that big of a disability, so it is much more likely to make bigoted groups.

>> No.11589426

>>11588916
So you can only write black characters as a white person that speak as you do? Or are you not even allowed to write black characters at all? As a left wing liberal, this is ridiculous and basically brings all of fiction and language into question

>> No.11589447

>>11589245
As bad as Burgertopia is right now, our dad is doin' much worse

>> No.11589452

>>11588923
>tfw a mongoloid supremacist
we mudst secuwe the existence of peanut-buttah M&Ms and a fewchure for retarded childwen

>> No.11589528

>>11589423
So, you think that most deaf people are horrible based on two cases (1 deaf-blind retard and some fraud case) and projecting it onto all of the deaf people? How is this respectful? Why is it ok for you to judge people based on their collective identity rather than individualistic merit then cry wolf about respect? I only respect people if they actually respect me. The real problem is that you are actually bigoted and doesn't know it. I am bigoted and I know it. Fuck hearing "people".

>> No.11589550

>>11588989
I gotta be honest lads, I don't understand it. What was the point of this poem, what is it trying to express?

>> No.11589573

>>11589528
I got more than two cases. Even got one more here from you. I'm even saying that it is not all deaf people. My saying that I have observed a kind of bigotry I have never seen in other disabled communities.
Maybe hearing is important for developing empathy.

>> No.11589580

>>11588969
Kek’d audibly

>> No.11589582

>>11589573
You generalize bigotry on a group of people and deny being a bigot. I could say the same thing about hearing people. Yet, I don't see you clutching your pearls about them. Why do you expect disabled people to be passive and willing to submit to your bigotry?

>> No.11589603

>>11589582
I hate on everyone all the time. This thread I give an extra hand to you deafs.
But I don't generalize bigotry here. I share my experiences, to get a perspective on them. It is not my fault that you confirm my experiences of deaf people as hateful.

>> No.11589604

>>11589550
advice to homeless people on how to play on the vanities of privileged people to manipulate them into giving you money

>> No.11589627

>>11588916

>US literary circles

This is admittedly polemical, but why? Why should we discuss this? America's stake in literature is Melville and nothing else. US literary circles are irrelevant to literature, case in point being they discuss american identity politics. Who cares? This has nothing to do with art. Why do you want to waste your time with it? Engaging on any level in this debate is smearing yourself in shit. And then you get angry, and you proclaim that the shit smells awful. It's so profoundly stupid. You could be reading the canon right now. But no. This thread will garner +250 replies about how dumb identity politics is, like every other thread on identity politics. It's true. But repeating it again and again, that's quite literally autistic.

>> No.11589637

>>11589604
damn, now I see it.

>> No.11589645

>>11588916
a part of me feel this people deserve this kind of witch hunt. choose your audience. you cant write to people like this, you should know you didnt write to people like this. fuck them.

>> No.11589676

His name is Wee lmao

>> No.11589699

>>11588923
bwaaaaaaa

"the harm you caused" Shut the fuck up. Nobody harmed anyone. I will not submit to your vain attempts to control me with your victim status.

>> No.11589739

>>11588916
He seriously could have defended this by just saying he was writing as part of a tradition of American Black Vernacular poetry: one of the earliest writers of which was Will W. Pfrimmer, a white man later praised by Paul Laurence Dunbar and Sterling A. Brown, both of whom also wrote vernacular poetry. Thus he would have the argument that he was adopting a style and a poetics, like the various imitations of Spenser written by the romantics, rather than co-opting AAVE like those "ya'll" people on Twitter.

Shit even the poem itself reads like a shit Langston Hughes; this dumb ass and his publishers have made the problem infinitely worse by apologising, when they could very easily have made a defence of him writing the poem based upon black American poetry.

>> No.11589780

I wonder why shows like The Wire and games like GTA V can get away with writing black characters using ebonics and saying nigga and not catch flak for it.
Did they bring in black writers to write the dialogue?

>> No.11589794

>>11589780
They have white writers but when it's time to write the dreaded nigga word they have a black man on call who types it out for them.

>> No.11589812
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11589812

>>11589794
>"So, you're a writer huh? What sort of stuff have you written?"
>"..."

>> No.11589835
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11589835

>>11588989
Every poet since probably Wallace Stevens is a fucking useless faggot.

>> No.11589881

>>11589355
>sign language is objectively superior to spoken language
Deaffag detected

>> No.11589906

>>11589645
This. Fuck this retard for apologizing to sharks. They smell blood in the water now. He would have been better off telling them all to go fuck themselves, I'm not kidding. They would move on to someone else because their shaming tactics weren't working.

>> No.11589971
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11589971

>>11589604
Fuck, after reading this it's clear, I've been deceiving myself all this time. I'm a godforsaken brainlet aren't I? And yet I pretend to read philosophy and have the audacity to think I understand it, imagine the things that have gone over my head when a mediocre poem is incomprehensible gibberish to me unless someone spoonfeeds me.
This is beyond cruel.

>> No.11589995

>>11589971
Don't be so hard on yourself you pity-begging faggot nigger.

I had to read it a couple times as well until it really clicked. So what? You did not get it, but you did not deride the poem or the author and you sought explanation and recognized your shortcomings. How else does one learn? This is what more people should realize when faced with their own ignorance.

>> No.11589999

>>11589995
I forgot to add
>deaf cunt

>> No.11590078

>>11589231
>wardine be cry
lol this shit is hilarious
did DFW ever talk to a black person

>> No.11590099

I am so, SO over this identity politics infestation of the literary world. If someone is not being baldly and deliberately offensive, judge their work on its own terms alone. Don't go assuming just because the writer has a certain skin tone or background that this or that is being implied.
This is the suicide, SUICIDE of literary criticism.

>> No.11590104

>>11588920
What are you, Meztiso with eastern blood?

>> No.11590289

>>11588989
>they know you is

lost it.

>> No.11590368

>>11589452
ashamed to say i laughed really hard at this

>> No.11590381

>>11589835
slow down, mark strand is the man

>> No.11590387

>>11589103
moderit leftists have it the worst - because they try to appease the mob - there is no appeasing the mob

>> No.11590393

>>11588989
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THE SPEAKER IS BLACK? WHY ARE ALL THE RACISTS ASSUMING ONLY BLACK PEOPLE WOULD SPEAK LIKE THAT?

>> No.11590399

>>11588989
Well, he's no Housman

>> No.11590411

>>11590393
The point isn't that the character is Black, anon. The point is that a White man did something, and this is an opportunity to lash out at him for it.

>> No.11590428

>>11588920
you're a conquistador rape baby sorry man

>> No.11590430

>>11589627
whitman
wallace stevens
henry james
ezra pound
ts eliot
hart crane
elizabeth bishop
...shut it

>> No.11590461

If ya got the crabs, don' say sheet. If yous a gurl,
ayo get on ya knees––dick ain't gon' suck i'self
das fo sho. Dem white crackas be passin' fast
muh niggas. Spread dat booty, bend rite over cuz
I n muh brothers goin fo a train ride. Choo choo.
Donchu say you aint gon suk no black dingus
cuz I saw you suk some black dingus before
an dis nigga rite here aint gon pay no extra
y'kno wat I'm sayin? Yous be saying pay up front
I be like get down low. Yous be like no refund
up in dis bish, I be witholdin da dough
till I nut in u, ho. Yous a crippled ho? Check my mood,
might pay double. Chance's I'm broke so no dough
for you, ho. You cryin? Sheet, look a me can't even
afford child support for my two young niggas.
One's ain't even mine sheeet.

>> No.11590464

>>11588989

This reads like someone made a fanfiction from the point of view of that guy from True Romance.

>> No.11590474
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11590474

posting the authors apology

>> No.11590506

>>11590474
What a fucking bitch. I wanna kick his teeth down his throat just because I probably can.

>> No.11590526

>>11590506
lolol same

>> No.11590552

>>11589780
Because it's a product wanted by millions, which only a few autistic whites can create. Unlike poetry, which nobody really cares about reading but everyone believes themselves capable of producing.

>> No.11590607

>>11589780
>>11590552
Probably because noone has written an article condemning them that got seen by enough people, and/or this was a purposeful set up ploy to attempt to show the artistic alt right artists that there is no such thing as free speech any more in the public sphere and look who has control over it

>> No.11590625

>>11589452
lmao

>> No.11590824

>>11590607
someone

>> No.11590909

>>11589423
You said she was deaf, then in the next sentence blind. Did you go to class with Helen Keller anon?

>> No.11590930

Can we use de-education rays on all these puritans. De-literacy devices. Turn them into unthinking apes with no means of expression.

>> No.11590943

>>11588989
But if a black person wrote this speaking like a retard its totally fine? Wew what a world

>> No.11590944

>>11589355
>>11589528
Cry some more. I wanna hear your pathetic little whimpers. It’s not like you’re able to.

>> No.11590961

>>11590474
These niggas hating on his poem don’t care about homelessness. Anyway poor stupid bastard.

>> No.11591030

>>11590607
anyone?

>> No.11591053

>>11588950
Underrated.

How can you rise up when you can't even stand?

>> No.11591253

>>11590104
Half Slav, that's why I specified western European.

>> No.11591374

>>11589277
unironically good for you. It's everone's goddamn right to hate others for being other, taking that away is taking away our humanity.

>> No.11591409

>ALL THESE WHITE MEN WRITE ABOUT IS OTHER WHITE MEN GODDAMNIT
>...ok...um...I'll write about...a black girl growing up in Atlanta...?
>NO YOU CANT DO THAT GO BACK TO WRITING ABOUT WHITE MEN WHITE MAN

repeat ad nauseam

>> No.11591502

>>11590393
ANYONE?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

>> No.11591517
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11591517

>>11588969

>> No.11591534

>>11588989
Huh, so this is what it's like "getting published"...

>> No.11591552
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11591552

>>11589355
>3) sign language is objectively superior to spoken language 4) they want to express their intended phenotype to continue their genetic lineage.

>> No.11591628

>>11590607
>or this was a purposeful set up ploy to attempt to show the artistic alt right artists that there is no such thing as free speech any more in the public sphere and look who has control over it
what did he mean by this?

>> No.11591830

>>11588989
Wasn't awful.

>> No.11591900

>>11589355
>>11589423
wtf I hate deaf """people""" now...

>> No.11591981

>>11590393
CAN SOMEONE ANSWER THIS QUESTION!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

>> No.11592089

>>11588989
This is not how black people speak.
Why not just write it without race in mind? Seriously, what does it accomplish?
It’s really not done well either, like this homeless black guy uses “you” instead of “you’re” then uses “you’re” in the next sentence, then uses the word “comprehend” instead of something simpler like “notice” or even “see.”
This poet is just a fucking idiot.
>NEA Fellow. Winner of the Poetry International Prize.
wew

>> No.11592135

>>11590474
Yikes this makes me embarrassed for the guy. It's an abject, capitulant response, the apology of a man who has been cowed.
Were I him I'd have stood my ground, explained my intentions and the context in which they unfolded, begged people to stop being such pussies, and moved on. What a shame that in this day and age you have to worry about tip towing around people's feelings when you write creatively.

>> No.11592228

I went to college in a town with a sizable deaf community; there was a school for dead children there. A couple of deaf people worked in the dining hall, and I encountered several others regularly at local businesses. Some observations:
>routinely playing up the disability as a bid for sympathy
>asking college-aged girls (in the dining hall) if they can braid their hair, have their phone number, etc.
>refusing to meet you halfway when trying to communicate with them, even in ASL
>acting entitled to big tips (service workers, delivery drivers) even though they were generally slow-witted and unaccommodating
>generally secretive and cagey, only really comfortable socializing with other deaf people
anyway, the deaf are probably the least functionally disabled group, at least the ones that can speak and understand spoken language, but paradoxically are some of the biggest malcontents

>> No.11592234

>>11592135
it reads like it came from a PR firm to me. he probably doesn't give a fuck apart from keeping his career alive.

>> No.11592254

>>11592234
Oh yeah, I'm sure interns churn out statements like that all the time. I'm sure he realizes that the internet's fitful eye of sauron will soon flitter on to its next momentary target of interest in the drifting spotlight of the public's attention.
This is poetry we're talking about here, it's an elitist subculture that most people don't care one whit about. You can pack your bags up and move to another town. It's not like running for politics.

>> No.11592270

>>11592254
>he internet's fitful eye of sauron will soon flitter
i like it, did you come up with that on the spot?

>> No.11592322

>>11589528
u r a fag on individualistic merit as well