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11577328 No.11577328 [Reply] [Original]

What political philosophy should I read if I believe that the average voter doesn't have the intelligence to vote well?

>> No.11577336

Views that get you to challenge your own assumptions.

>> No.11577349

>>11577336
Like?

>> No.11577376

>>11577328
The idea you're speaking of is called citizenship voting rights or weighted voting rights. I'm assuming you don't want to be convinced as to why this is wrong.

Ambisa Moyo’s Edge of Chaos. She presents ten rules for fixing the western democratic model. The last two rules are what you want to read up on.

>> No.11577379

>>11577349
You're hopeless.

>> No.11577385

>>11577328
Sergio Pannuzio, Robert Michels and Mosca

>> No.11577526

>>11577385
>>11577376
>Italian fascists
>Defense of liberal world order
Now we're talking

>> No.11577529

Fascists and Monarchist

>> No.11577533

if you truly believe this then you don't believe in democracy, and there are two choices there based on how narcissistic and authoritarian you are... because i assume you believe you're above average and should be allowed to vote LMAO. but anyway... two threads to follow:

1. people who recognize democracy is a still domination, wish to dismantle authority, and inspire others to self-determine, whatever form that takes for them: illegalist anarchism, egoism, anarcho-primitivism, crimethinc's critique of democracy, certain forms of indigenous self-governance, etc.

2. authoritarians who think they know best and if this is you, just do us a favor and kill yourself: Leninists, Maoists, fascists, vanguardists of all stripes, Blanquists...

i suppose the type of nihilism that likes to watch the world burn is outside these options....

>> No.11577543

>>11577533
>Every anarchist is a baffled dictator the post

>> No.11577548

>>11577533
How much of a brainlet can you be.

>> No.11577559

>>11577533
>Everyone who doesnt believe in what you call democracy is either an anarchist or a totalitarian
(You)

>> No.11577561

>>11577543
>implying i'm an anarchist but ok

>>11577548
read this in the tone of my dissertation adviser. had a good laugh.

>> No.11577566

>>11577559
exactly my point! good job, maybe you should be allowed to vote after all!

>> No.11577578

>>11577328
Evola.

>> No.11577584

>>11577328
Trump won, so they can't be that bad.

>> No.11577589

Obviously the average voter doesn't have the intelligence to vote well. That's why we invented democracy, so no one has to carry that burden.

>> No.11577592

You should take individual responsibility for as much as you can, and strive for mastery over that which is within your capacity for it.

Or become an identity politics ideologue.

>> No.11577600
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11577600

>>11577533
the absolute state of centrists

>> No.11577607

>>11577578
Evola is only meant for " a certain type of person"

>> No.11577611

>>11577328
They only have 2 options, how bad can they fuck up?

>> No.11577620

>>11577328
People like to use the term "Fascist" when what they are describing is "Elitist." Many philosophers contribute to this attitude, Plato and Aristotle, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche all have a skepticism of the ability of "average" citizens to be informed well enough, either by themselves or public institutions providing their education, to make the critical decisions necessary for not only maintaining the body politic but also affirming its strengths while reducing its weaknesses. Their attitudes can seem archaic, yet even in the most inclusive democracies is an undercurrent of presumption on the part of those in power to "know what's best," for the people and the country.

>> No.11577681

>>11577328
Philosophy is diametrical to politics. Chomsky is a disgracefully mistaken for fact fiction.

>> No.11577697

>>11577328
A free society doesn't mean it's catered to your sense of competence. the entire basis that the average person is incompetent is a natural part of life and to think you deserve to have some kind of authority over that, and somehow there is a system that can overcome this is incredibly romantic in a juvenile sense.

>> No.11577702

>a free society
*taxes you effectively 70% and decides how your life should be via laws*

>> No.11577708

>>11577697
>>11577702

>> No.11577712

>>11577620
Nietzsche, I don't think, really falls into that category. His observation was that people find it extremely difficult to make objective assessments of reality as opposed to making value judgement's regarding aspects of that reality. Which actually happens to be technically true. So, people need to be taught how to look determine the valence of a situation or object more so than they do how to articulate or describe the objective properties of the situation or object.

>> No.11577731

The first half of Kill la Kill, by Kazuki Nakashima.
Plato's Rebublic.
My dairy desu

On a more serious note, are there any history books about Kings and Queens that did their job with dignity, justice, and hedonistic restraint?

>> No.11577745

>>11577328
>What political philosophy should I read if I believe that the average voter doesn't have the intelligence to vote well?

Traditionalism

>> No.11577797

>>11577697
>Incompetency is natural part of life
It's a burden and there's no reason to base the government budget on the opinions of people whose opinions shouldnt matter.
>to think you deserve to have some kind of authority over that
I don't believe I have any authority. Everyone in this thread seems to believe that my end goal is to have control over other people. That's not it. But why is having control over other people (that is, voting) a right for people clearly unfit to make decisions regarding national welfare?

>>11577745
This never appealed to me.

>> No.11577806

>>11577797
>This never appealed to me.

why not

>> No.11577810

the trial and execution of socrates

>> No.11577816

>>11577328
Read Myth of the Rational Voter by Bryan Caplan if you want to stay away from meme ideologies

>> No.11577822

>>11577806
>Perennial wisdom
>Aesthetics LARPing
>Monarchism
>Militant Religiosity
>Metaphysics
>Esoteric Hitlerism tier ideas in general

>> No.11577887

>>11577822
think anon. Why are you even asking about 'voting' in the first place?' It's because you are working within the limits of ideas that are inseparably bound up in modernity.

>> No.11577902

>>11577887
*with modernity

>> No.11577906

What makes any of you think you're capable of voting competently under any circumstances, on anything important?

>> No.11577910

>>11577906
Not an argument

>> No.11577931

>>11577328
>everyone is dumb but me
wow never heard anyone say this before gj fag youre a special intellectual in the cow like herd of society

>> No.11578000

>>11577887
Because I think parliamentary democracy under principles of individuality and responsibility/duty is the superior form of government.

>>11577931
Imagine how much better life would be if only the smartest 70% of society could make decisions

>> No.11578060

>>11578000
how exactly is your life bad right now

>> No.11578088

>>11577910
It's a question, retard.

>> No.11578204

>>11577906
The idea of a voting system is that the individual plays the role in deciding the rules in which the group abides, and in doing so, you are acting upon the desires of the group should the majority agree with you. To say I don't have the right to vote is to say I am not a part of the group's greater interest, which is also the result of voting against the majority. Why dismiss the voter under the presumption that their proposed change is bad when that could be done by the group? If some proposed change is ideal for reasons the individual believes to be true, it should be his responsibilty to persuade the group.

>> No.11578314

>>11578060
How is that relevant?

>> No.11578321

>>11578314
because you said "imagine how much better life would be." that implies life as it stands is bad

>> No.11578328

>>11577561
Tell us about your PhD and dissertation anon.

>> No.11578339

>>11578088
Whether I see myself fit to vote or not does not take away from the point about voting thanks to birth right being stupid

>> No.11578340
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11578340

Neoreaction- Mencius Moldbug, Nick Land into ==> Guénon/Evola

>> No.11578487

>>11578321
No it doesn't

>> No.11578488

>>11577328
Unironically Plato

>> No.11578504
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11578504

Carl Schmitt and/or Leo Strauss

>> No.11578509

The bible

>> No.11578514
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11578514

You know who

>> No.11578525

>>11578487
so life isn't bad?

>> No.11578535

>>11577328
Read The Ethics of Voting by Jason Brennan. It is a clear and well developed argument for epistocracy, which is the system of government you are describing.

>> No.11578537
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11578537

>>11578204
What if the majority votes to relieve themselves of the right to vote?

>> No.11578541

>>11578535
Bump.

Everyone else in this thread is retarded, don't read any of the garbage they are recommending

>> No.11578570

>>11578537
what if you purposely flood the majority with certain people who always vote for your side

>> No.11578588

>>11577328
I was told by a thread that J. Brennan's, "Against Democracy", would be a good place to make headway into this subject if I wanted a modern perspective, is this true?

>> No.11578709

>>11577906
No one understands quantum physics.

Let's vote.

>> No.11578714

>>11578537
Then I will revolt and reclaim that right or die. I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which this poll would actually happen and it's quite difficult. Thanks for giving me something to mull over as I assume you have nothing but questions yourself.

>> No.11578765

>>11578714
Women in the US were asked to vote on whether they wanted to vote, and the majority voted no.

They were given it anyway.

So, there are historical precedents.

>> No.11578906

>>11578765
That's so curious, they were using the system itself to decide whether they should use the system they were currently using for the future, and the majority said no. How did we even begin to have them use the system if they were legally disallowed to use it?

But I viewed your previous question in the sense that the voting group already established their right to vote, and THEN revoked it. What would replace it? Now I really want to check the history of more classical democracies in relation to the US "republic democracy" and see if we've really gone down the path of voting ourselves out of the right to vote by allowing representatives to decide our laws.

>> No.11578936

>>11578906
I'll cease the smartassery and answer your question best I can.

Well, a fundamental prerequisite for the cultural instantiation of democratic principles seems to be the primordial abstract representation, in the individual, of the idea that the individual is sovereign over the state. This is a uniquely western cultural characteristic, and does not necessarily equate to true democratic equality. More something akin to effective democracy, or oligarchic democracy.

>> No.11579006

>>11578204
Because 'the group' is very fallible, because it's made up out of regular people, and regular people can't be trusted to make rational decisions, as we see every election in every country.

>> No.11579050

>>11578525
Could be better.

>> No.11579172 [DELETED] 

>>11577731
I don't have any book recs, but King Pedro II of Brazil served his nation perfectly. Almost too perfect to the point that he resented the work and his role as monarch. Some political faction staged a halfhearted coup and he took it as an insult and exiled himself to Europe.

>>11577797
The vast majority people are aware of what their strengths and limitations are when voting and attempt to choose the candidate they believe could best address the nation's welfare, this last election notwithstanding. Just because I know nothing about plumbing doesn't mean I can't hire a proficient plumber.

>> No.11579331

Bizzarely enough: John Stuart Mill's 'On Liberty' and especially 'Considerations on Representative Government'

>> No.11579343

>>11577328
Hobbes' Leviathan

>> No.11579606

What should I read if I believe that democracy in modern form is flawed due to the selfishness of the average voter? The breakdown on national pride and the inclusiveness we once found in being a citizen of whatever country?

I want to read arguments for and against sortition and anything else that comes to Athenian democracy

>> No.11579617

>>11577328
>>11578541
>>11578535
this and Caplan's Myth of the Rational Voter.

>> No.11579635
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11579635

Plato will teach you all you need to know about why democracy is a bad idea. Remember, a democracy put Socrates to death.

>> No.11579663

Libertarianism. Take the yellow pill my friend.

>> No.11579684

>>11579606
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

>> No.11579719

>>11577376
Convince me why is it wrong.
>inb4 muh opression
How does Democracy prevent opression any better or better yet why do you even place human rights for the average monkey retard nigger chimpanzee citizen on such a high pedestal in the first place?

>> No.11579743

>>11579719
>Ok guys, we are going to make a democracy
>but the only people who can participate in said democracy are the people we already know will vote a certain way
And you have the gall to call other people "average monkey retard nigger chimpanzee citizen" lol.

>> No.11579755

>>11579606
Tocqueville and Rosanvallon.

>> No.11579769

>>11577533
>democracy=mass suffrage
kill yourself brainlet

>> No.11579784

the fuck you talking about, libtard?. they voted for trump and brexit

>> No.11579825

>>11579755
Cheers.

>> No.11579845
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11579845

>this thread
like a haunted house

>> No.11579859

What political philsophy should I read where I want to import as many people who I know will vote for me no matter what

>> No.11579954

>>11579859
Ayn Rand

>> No.11580129

>>11579743
Yes, the people who will vote in a based and redpilled way. It's not truly democratic maybe but that's not a problem if your country becomes perfect as a result.

>> No.11580132
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11580132

>>11579845
*snap*

>> No.11580160
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11580160

>>11580129
I couldn't have said it better myself

>> No.11580202

>>11577328
A representative democracy isn't about voting for the greater good, it's about voting for yourself and letting your representative interpret those results to pursue the greater good. Nobody is too stupid to vote, except people who think their vote is anything more than a census.

>> No.11580300

>>11577533
>if you truly believe this then you don't believe in democracy
Not true. He could believe in a form of Athenian democracy.

>> No.11580943

>>11577328
Jefferson
Specifically Jefferson's letters to Adams.

>> No.11580975

>>11577328
Every example of undemocratic rule Les to worse standard of life for the average person than democracy, I'd you kind find me an example to the contrary I'll eat my face

>> No.11581022

>>11579635
Exactly original.

>> No.11581358

>>11577328
The Federalist Papers.

>> No.11581805

>>11577328
Plato's Republic.

>> No.11581896

>>11577328
Bryan Caplan - The Myth of the Rational Voter
Jason Brennan - Against Democracy

>> No.11581921

>>11577328
>the average voter doesn't have the intelligence to vote well?

Anything from the feudal era.

>> No.11581935
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11581935

>>11577328
Neo-reactionary/neo-absolutism are good ones

>> No.11581959

>>11577328
Anything by any classical conservative, primarily Burke.

>> No.11582102

>>11578588
get it on pdf libgen to be sure, its okay I heard

>> No.11582104

>>11580975
Four Asian Tigers
singapore best in all categories > scandinavia

>> No.11582128

>>11582104
There's huge poverty in Singapore that the government avoids reporting or tackling in any serious way, the wealth gap is higher than most all western democracies, it's pretty much a tax haven and it's GDP is boosted by it's international banking sector, and there is 0 press freedom

>> No.11582132

>>11582128
S'pore is a fucking paradise. I prefer HK in principle, but there are too many mainlanders hocking up their lungs now.

>> No.11582144

>>11582128
>it's pretty much a tax haven
>it's GDP is boosted by it's international banking sector
What's wrong with this?

I also heard they have very high tax compliance cause their tax code is simple, is that correct?

Also to contribute to the thread https://falkvinge.net/2017/03/02/simplified-taxless-state-proposal-part-1/

>> No.11582150

>>11577328
Plato

>> No.11582163

>>11582144
Because the poverty of the country is completely unrepresented - the money isn't going back into the economy hence the massive disparity and hence it being inferior to the democratic society with some state intervention in the economic process

>> No.11582171

>>11577328
>What philosophy should I read to confirm my biases?
None. You are in the wrong place. Try here: >>>/pol/

>> No.11582188

Democracy is good but only restricted to land owners, not everybody.

>> No.11582198

>>11582188
That only transforms democracy into a rich dick waving contest

Besides it's been tried by the romans and that ultimately led to the emergence of feudalism

The only good democracy as a system of governance is one where christian orthodoxy is involved

>> No.11582206
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11582206

>>11577328

Tocqueville - Democracy in America

>> No.11582291

Wouldn’t be possible in America. If you remove the bottom 30% of IQ, most of it will end up being black + Hispanic (based on average racial IQ). It would solve every issue America currently has but wouldn’t be feasible sadly.

>> No.11582310

>>11582291
>If you remove the bottom 30% of IQ, most of it will end up being black + Hispanic
I wouldn't count on it... would love to know where you're getting this information from

>> No.11582322

read democracy by hoppe

also this
>>11578340

>> No.11582384

Democracy would be better if women were not allowed to vote. Who thought that would be a good idea?

>> No.11582550

>>11582104
>Comparing city state tax haven to actual countries
LMAO

>> No.11582578

>>11577328
meritocracy

>> No.11582579

Dick the birthday boy

>> No.11583125

>>11582206
OP here, I already have this on my backlist

>> No.11583480

>>11577328
You should read Radical Markets. Consider the concept of a vote in which an individual uses a yearly-distributed amount of special credits to buy votes on the issues he cares about. Buying X votes as an individual costs X^2 credits. This solves many problems with voting, giving more power to the minority, making people only vote about the issues they care about (budgeting political power, as it were), and showing a better distribution of how much people really care about some ruling.

>> No.11583525

The problem with that is who has the power to define wich people are qualified enough to vote and by what parameters. Everyone has personal interest and biases, so my life experience and point of view can seem ignorant to someone belonging to a different group. Maybe the solution to this is not to give an arbitrary elite the power to vote, but to make the average voter more qualified through education.

>> No.11583529

Ellul's propaganda

>> No.11583571

>>11583525
Youd have to make academia extremely unbiased otherwise whats the point? Theyll just vote for what theyre taught is best.>>11583525

>> No.11584517

>>11582322
Seconding Hoppe.

>> No.11584578
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11584578

>> No.11584838

The Socratic Dialogues and the Republic