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11557742 No.11557742 [Reply] [Original]

>wardine be cry


Let's actually fucking discuss this one for once.
I've read people call this part of the book inexcusable and insensitive, and I agree with that to a point. I'm not sure if it was the right call to use such a stereotypical voice and vernacular for this bit of the book, especially because this narrator doesn't show up again at all, and Roy Tony only comes up peripherally.

Also, when he does come up again it's so we can see he's going thru the program and trying to turn his life around. But is this character/plot really as simple as this? Like, did DFW just put this guy in as a peripheral example of someone turning their life around? That seems kind of weak sauce. Anyone disagree?

>> No.11557752

>>11557742
It's a parody of hamfisted attempts by sympathetic whites to write about da ghetto, you pseud.

>> No.11557766

>>11557752
that reads as kind of a thin way of explaining DFW, a sympathetic white, trying to write within that world. where is the indication that it's parody?

>> No.11557789

>>11557766
DFW was a meticulous researcher. If he were not making a parodic point, the ebonics would be correct rather than amusingly off-mark from the first line.

>> No.11557823

>>11557766
>where is the indication that it's parody?
From the fact that a text that goes out of its way to take on an academic and grammatically-rigorous style suddenly switching to a ridiculous, over-the-top stereotype where grammar rules are thrown out the window. It's a simple ironic juxtaposition.

>> No.11557828

>>11557789
>>11557823

I honestly don't trust his sense of accuracy when it comes to this area to be honest. His whole background is middle class white and academically constrained.

>suddenly switching to a ridiculous, over-the-top stereotype where grammar rules are thrown out the window

Most readers agree that this passage is him trying to do dialect gymnastics early in the novel to throw the reader out of a presumed comfort zone and failing miserably.
I think it's more plausible that this is an ignorant oversight than some cryptic never-before-addressed meta irony.

It's also possible he was trying to communicate that this narrator were developmentally challenged, and, like Mario, had some kind of innocent thought process that could be quite moving to read. Maybe the language was so affected because of that?

>> No.11557850

>>11557828
am I the only one who thought of Flowers for Algernon more than blacksploitation when I read it?

>> No.11557855

Whatever his motivation for including was, it still makes me cringe and want to drop the book. It's an unsalvageable mess.

>> No.11557862

The only defense for it that people ever have is "I like DFW therefore I assume he must have had a good reason for doing it"

The most generous defense you can make of it is that, because it's speculative fiction, it's supposed to be a fictional future dialect rather than real ebonics. But even then, it's just not a very good passage.

>> No.11557879

>>11557862
that's even more absurd than it being some premeditated parody and has an equal lack of justification

>>11557850
that makes much more sense and i'd call it that

>> No.11557896

>>11557855
It's also less than two pages long, or about 0.2% of the text. People who complain about this passage have obviously not read the entire thing, it's just the first thing they got to and find objectionable before dropping it so they have something to mention when they tell people they did read the book and are obviously so much smarter than DFW. Same thing for anyone who talks about Gravity's Rainbow and mentions bananas.

>> No.11557898

>>11557879
does it ever even say that Wardine is black? I basically read it as a poor, southern girl who is probably severely mentally challenged (ebonics is often a sign of class more than race.)

>> No.11557927

>>11557898
yeah, they refer to everyone at the housing projects as black thru poor tony, incl Roy Tony

>> No.11557946

I have not even read IJ but I just know that single sentence is the best thing about it.

>> No.11558028

>>11557946
w a r d i n e m o m m a s a y
a
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d
i
n
e

m
o
m
m
a

s
a
y

>> No.11558097

It's a mentally handicapped character - not a reflection of actual ebonics but a distorted version through a disabled narrator. Thought that was clear

>> No.11558105

I skipped that chapter desu

>> No.11558257

>Every decision was David's. I made suggestions and recommendations and tried to make the reasons for them as clear as possible. But every change was his. It is a common misconception that the writer turns the manuscript over to the editor, who then revises, shapes, and cuts at will. In fact the editor’s job is to earn the writer’s agreement that changes he or she suggests are worth making. David accepted many cuts—around 250 manuscript pages is what I recall. But he resisted others, for reasons that he usually explained.

Reminder that Wardine Be Cry was either judged a quality chapter by DFW's editor, or DFW's editor asked to cut it and DFW refused.

Reminder that there were 250 pages of IJ deemed less worthy of inclusion than Wardine Be Cry.

>> No.11558974

>>11558097
dfw is a racist like everybody else, and that's okay. sometimes ppl talk like that just bc of who they are :/

>> No.11559147

>>11557789
If you had the basic knowledge, you'd know DFW is in fact amusingly off-mark about most of what you assume he's meticulously researched. But that doesn't explain wardine be cry as him failing at ebonics, because he should've had enough personal experience with it

>> No.11559511

I just took it at face value and enjoyed it when I originally read it. I can’t believe this particular passage causes so much derision of DFW.

Let’s not forget those faggots known as The Black Eyed Peas singing “I’mma be I’mma be”.

“Wardine be cry” wasn’t that far off the mark and it was fun for the prose of the novel to be switched up. It was unironically one ot my favourite sections in the novel.

>> No.11559531

>>11557742
It's not that it's offensive, it just sucks and DFW is shit.

>> No.11559573

>>11557742
Wouldn't it be
>Wardine be cryin'
I'm not American so exposure to their black people is only through media, but just going off ear they tend to use adjectives instead of nouns.

>> No.11559585

I made my younger brother read that part out loud (he was 12) and he said it was 'wack'. Please explain to a boomer what that means. Also Clennette appears in a later chapter (the one with the electric shock doorknob) of the book as a janitor or something.

>> No.11559611

>>11558974
This was a pretty humorous post, thanks. Great parody of a youtube comment.

>> No.11559617

It's just a vignette of a sad situation that is a branch off a main storyline, much like the nightly rape of the ratarded daughter in the mask, and the story of matty pemulis being raped by his dad. Wardine is beaten mercilessly by Roy tony (who we later see in Recovery). Drugs bad. Just because of the dialect and the fact it's the first little tangent dealing with that side of the story is why people get all fucked up about it. Yrs truly is probably a worse section yet no one brings it up.
Trauma is a running theme through Wallace's work. It comes up a lot in The Pale King and a bunch of his short fiction.

>> No.11559622

>>11559585
are you black?

>> No.11559633

Am I the only one that found it sad rather than amusing or cringy?

>> No.11559658

>>11559622
No, I am Asian. Should I take my brother to the doctor about this?

>> No.11559661

>>11559633
this guy gets it

>> No.11559668

>>11557742
It's supposed to be read in the context of being juxtaposed with the vignette about the Green-Bong's

>> No.11560061

>>11559658
It might be necessary.

>> No.11560063

>>11559633
>>11559661
obviously - its meant to be sad retardoids... great achievement... einstin

>> No.11560104

>>11557896

>anyone who talks about Gravity's Rainbow and mentions bananas.

100% true, but that's not really relevant because the Wardine section is one of the absolute worst things in the entire book.

>> No.11561510

>>11559573
yes, and dfw should've known that, but despite what some want to claim there isn't a consistent ebonics grammar

>> No.11561534

>>11560104
>Gravity's Rainbow and mentions bananas
but that was my favorite thing about GR