Enlightenment

[Anonymous No.11550441]

Is spiritual enlightenment real, or is it a wild goose chase? Are there benefits of meditation, healthy eating and physical exercise on the "quality" or "vividness" of one's conscious awareness? Does mood and generally feeling good fit into this?

[Anonymous No.11550447]

Sorry if this is the wrong board. I don't know which other one would be suitable.

[Anonymous No.11550466]

>>11550441
>healthy eating and physical exercise
yes

[Anonymous No.11550471]

>>11550441
I mean, the Buddhist idea of enlightenment is that you stop identifying with temporary phenomena and therefore don't suffer based on temporary phenomena. Which I guess is reasonable but it's not really desirable imo

[Anonymous No.11550487]

I read "The Lotus Effect" and it changed my life.
My life is now much more blissful and filled with equanimity.
It's pretty much a cross between Dzogchen and Jnana Yoga.
I can build up higher states of awareness(which is like taking a small dose of ecstasy), and then wake up the next morning and immediately remember my previous state of what I have accomplished.

[Anonymous No.11550509]

>>11550487
Thanks. I'll check it out.

>>11550466
So if we say our awareness was illuminated by a light bulb, those activities would increase the brightness? Is that just because they increase the energy of the body?

[Anonymous No.11550532]

>>11550487
What is the exercise(s) that build up higher states of awareness in yourself? A form of meditation?

[Anonymous No.11550606]

>>11550532
I kind of just figured it out on my own as I went along the path after discovering greater self-awareness.

Some people on youtube speak of similar meditation like ken wilber and this guy :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhfcQp9QCGI

[Anonymous No.11550665]

>>11550441
Spiritual enlightenment in buddhist sense isn't something that can be embodied within terms and words. Enlightenment isn't something out of this world, no magical aura flows around enlightened beings, his brain works in exact same way your brain operates. In Zen there is a saying:

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water".

You can see that the secret of enlightenment lies not in abstract forms, but in everyday life. It's *how* you do it that matters. Next time you do some house chores, like dish washing for example, try to not think of anything else than doing this exact action. When dish washing, just dish wash. When you go for a walk, just go for a walk, pay attention to your breath, and in some time you will feel how your mind empties, how strange and unspeakable peace comes to you. This is not enlightenment though- it's a meditation-like state. How to achieve enlightement then, you may ask. I can only say that when your mind is emptied, your delusions are cleared and your actions is right it will right when you don't except it (there are tons of zen stories where zen monks achieve enlightement while listening to waterfalls or watering the plants).

[Anonymous No.11550724]

>>11550665
>dude just stop thinking LMAO
>just BE

[Anonymous No.11550757]

>>11550724
more or less

[Anonymous No.11551040]

>>11550724
This isn't really about not thinking. You should be aware of your thoughts, and how your mind operates, which may sound easy and obvious, but it is not. Try to sit in silence for some time, say few minutes, and focus on your breath. Be aware of your surroundings, the sound, the smell, how you feel when you "just sit", but don't engage with these feeling. You'll see it's not easy to be fully aware of the present moment as you drift away in your thoughts, only to later realize you drifted away. Our thoughts are strange indeed, coming out of nowhere and going into nothingness. Just passing by, like a clouds in the sky you know. People who meditate or practice mindfulness don't stop thinking, no. Telling yourself "stop thinking! emptiness is the way!" isn't going to help much. Our mind empties naturally when we pay attention to what we do, doesn't matter if it's watching a movie or walking the dog. Simple as that.
Please Anon, try it. I understand skepticism and jokes, but being mindful or practicing meditation will surely make you a happier person.

[Anonymous No.11551077]

>>11551040
Calm down dude, I'm a licensed Bodhisattva. My shitposts have Zen in them

[Anonymous No.11551102]

>>11550441
the *feeling* of enlightenment is certainly real, and that's just about as far as you're likely to find out. whether this feeling is in line with the truth, the concept of enlightenment itself, who knows?

[Anonymous No.11551116]

>>11550441
>Are there benefits of meditation, healthy eating and physical exercise on the "quality" or "vividness" of one's conscious awareness?
yes people have been studying mindfulness and default mode network for a while now, meditation has a lot fo proven medical benefits and increase awareness via default mode network, spirituality has no science behind it but meditation, healthy eating and exercise all do

[Anonymous No.11551234]

Spiritualism is bullshit. There's no mystical object to attain. People who speak of mystical experiences are just fooled by their own perceptions which can be explained in terms of chemistry.

[Anonymous No.11551240]

>>11551234
>People who speak of mystical experiences are just fooled by their own perceptions which can be explained in terms of chemistry.

This must mean that life in general is also bullshit then.

[Anonymous No.11551258]

>>11551240
Bingo.

[Anonymous No.11551259]

let me spoiler it for you altho you wont "get it" because getting it is beyond words.
We are all one, all of this universe is one, call it GOD if you want it, it makes no difference
Human consciousness "divides" the universe in little manageable concepts like YOU or I or SUN, these concepts are not real, they are a useful illusion, there is evidence for this in paradoxes, paradoxes are not reality being weird, its evidence that reality is not divisible and when we try to do it wonky stuff comes up, ie: zenos paradox
tl;dr, real reality is not divisible and unknowable, we create little compartmentalized representations of it and "play" with them because thats the evolutionary function of consciousness, just like the evolutionary function of an eagles claw is to be sharp and tear flesh.

[Anonymous No.11551273]

>>11551259
This is what happens when you try to reach a spiritual awakening with no practice of philosophy (reason) and no faith

[Anonymous No.11551300]

>>11551273
if you laugh at a joke, how do you really know if you understood it?

[Anonymous No.11551323]

Feeling maximal [pleasure] is a logical goal. Raising the level of sentience is also a goal so that you're capacity for [pleasure] as well as your power to achieve it increases


>>11551258
You are existence. Your existence is, logically, everything to you.

And you say it's bullshit lol. You're letting your lack of confidence make you delusional.

>>11551259
There is both an I and a meta. They're not mutually exclusive.
You've been reading too much Dr Bronners soap

[Anonymous No.11551332]

You can only achieve enlightenment within a particular social context. OSHO, for example, is just a maniacal sex-craved capitalist to an outsider, but for someone within his community, he's a truly enlightened being. The same goes for saints and prophets from every context. So if you want to become enlightened, you have to pick what social context it is you seek to be enlightened within. Spoiler alert, most of them, as structures, have closed the door to future enlightenment, as new insight or revelation would threaten the integrity of the system. So really the best way to "become enlightened" is to create your own social context, usually through charisma inborn or contrived, acquire a following of sycophantic acolytes who reify your own identification as an enlightened being, and voila, you are enlightened.

I've met a lot of enlightened masters in my time, and most of them are just kind of silly unless you drink the kool-aid.

[Anonymous No.11551342]

>>11551332
read heraclitus, attar of nishapur, the bible, borges
the same message is there across time and cultures, you just have to be able to understand it

[Anonymous No.11551357]

Enlightenment can only come from within.

[Anonymous No.11551365]

>>11551342
That doesn't really mean anything, and anything other than historical nihilism is unsupported by evidence

[Anonymous No.11551368]

>>11551357
You mean only from the subconscious

[Anonymous No.11551377]

>>11551342
You are conflating perennialism and enlightenment. Both are actually European ideas forged in the 18th and 19th centuries then pasted over huge swaths of intellectual history encompassing vastly divergent linguistic and historical paradigms.

To be enlightened is to be enlightened within a particular social context, right? Can you be enlightened without anyone to call you enlightened? I'm not trying to convey some cute koan here. My point is just that "be enlightened" necessitates people to call you enlightened. Otherwise you're just another stoned kid who wants to talk about the secrets of the universe.

[Anonymous No.11551423]

>>11551377
enlightment is a word, a human construct, do you believe its possible to explain anything beyond human constructs with a human construct? i might just as well try to explain it using legos

[Anonymous No.11551467]

>>11551423
I think we agree then. The question the thread began with was 'is spiritual enlightenment real?' and the answer to that is yes, it is a real term and a real idea that has real effects on people in the world. My point is that it any notion of spiritual enlightenment is necessarily crystallized within a particular social matrix. What enlightenment is, and whether one is enlightened or not is determined within that given social criterion. Like I said, I've met numerous people who have followings which consider them to be enlightened - people who, perhaps as a result, think they are themselves enlightened. It all, usually, seems rather silly to me, but who am I to say they aren't?

[Anonymous No.11551515]

I like this thread

[Anonymous No.11551600]

>>11551467
i think you are missing the forest for the trees, metaphorically of course xD

[Anonymous No.11551605]

>>11551600
>xD

You need to leave.

[Anonymous No.11551622]

from being long and vehemently attent upon Geometricall Figures, a man shall in the dark, (though awake) have the Images of Lines, and Angles before his eyes: which kind of Fancy hath no particular name; as being a thing that doth not commonly fall into mens discourse..... Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes 1651

[Anonymous No.11551643]

>>11551605
too late, im already here and will forever be

[Anonymous No.11551703]

>>11550487
>>It's pretty much a cross between Dzogchen and Jnana Yoga.
you will not get far with this rubbish by rubbish normies

[Anonymous No.11551707]

>>11550487
also, you do not experience equanimity until the 4th jahna. Equanimity before that is really baby stuff

[Anonymous No.11551714]

>>11551234
imagine listening to people from the university

[Anonymous No.11551879]

>>11550441
It is, just not the way you describe it.

[Anonymous No.11552147]

>>11550441
Enlightenment is when you stop needing enlightenment.
That's will sound vague and paradoxical but it's true.
We all seek enlightenment and often through misguided paths, but there is that need, all human's have it.
It might not actually be "enlightenment" per se, that is to say that enlightenment may actually one of the many forms of what it really is that we crave.
Enlightenment may actually be one of those many misguided paths we take.
The most important thing is not enlightenment but what comes after enlightenment, which is the realization of the hollowness of what you seek and of the world,
and of yourself.
That nothing is of value or meaning, everything is inherently valueless and meaningless, and most important of all that we are the ones who possess the ultimate of giving meaning and value to the world.
When you realize this at a subconscious level, then you no longer seek enlightenment because you already had enlightenment in the first place,
All the structures of value and meaning you've constructed is shaken at its very foundations, and you begin to see that for what it is, objectively nothing yet potentially everything from your perspective.
You don't cease to be normal, you are still normal and at the same time you are no longer normal because the emotional baggage and whatever structure of meaning that term carries no longer has power over you but you now have power over it.
Most don't reach this level of realization, many self-implode into nihilism.

[Anonymous No.11552178]

>>11550441
Enlightenment is when you stop needing enlightenment.
That will sound vague and paradoxical but it's true.
We all seek enlightenment and often through misguided paths, but there is that need for enlightenment, all humans have it.
It might not actually be "enlightenment" per se, that is to say enlightenment may actually be one of the many forms of what it really is that we crave for.
Enlightenment may actually be one of those many misguided paths we take.
The most important thing is not enlightenment but what comes after enlightenment, which is the realization of the hollowness of what you seek, of the world,
and of yourself.
That nothing has value or meaning, everything is inherently valueless and meaningless, and most important of all is the realization that we are the ones who possess the ultimate power of giving meaning and value to the world.
When you realize this at a subconscious level, you no longer seek enlightenment because you realize that you already had it in the first place,
All the structures of value and meaning you've constructed is shaken at its very foundations, and you begin to see that structure for what it is, something that is objectively nothing yet potentially everything from your perspective.
You don't cease to be normal, you are still normal and at the same time you are no longer normal because the emotional baggage and whatever structure of meaning that term carries no longer has power over you but you now have power over it.
Most don't reach this level of realization, many self-implode into nihilism.

[Anonymous No.11552326]

>>11551300
I laugh therefore I comprende

[Anonymous No.11552375]

My advice is to stop reading self-help. Self-help is anything prescriptive with regards to living in general, which includes (unfortunately) a lot of stuff that which appears to be philosophical, but it really isn't.

If you want to improve your physical health, read medicine, not fad diet books; if you want to improve your "mind", read philosophy and psychology; if you want to understand the world around you, read politics and economics; to understand the people around you, read sociology and history.

Also read and mathematics, and science, and literature. That's how you become enlightened, by understanding for yourself, not have some "guru" try to give you life lessons.

[Anonymous No.11552377]

>>11550471
>Giving up desires is not desirable
XD

[Anonymous No.11552383]

>>11552178
>Most don't reach this level of realization, many self-implode into nihilism.
Like I did. The paradox is this: once you stop giving a fuck about life, and suddenly enjoy it, you start caring again because you don't want it to end, but as soon as you start caring, the anxiety begins.

I've been through this cycle enough times now and simply accept that enlightenment is fleeting.

[Anonymous No.11552428]

>>11552178
>That nothing has value or meaning, everything is inherently valueless and meaningless, and most important of all is the realization that we are the ones who possess the ultimate power of giving meaning and value to the world.

This is derived from philosophy based in Christianity and monotheism: the creator/creation master/slave dialectic. It just replaces God as the source of all meaning with the self as a creator who injects meaning (himself) into a passive, meaningless existence. Manifestations of such thinking is the idea that the pre-genetic idea of the male holding the creative seed, with the female being merely a passive flowerpot to grow the seed inside of.

To truly transcend the creator/creation dialectic requires synthecizing it into a verb: co-creating. The artist is just as much created by the artistic process as the product, there is no artist-in-themselves divorced from the rest of reality, but they are a co-creative mutualistic process between themselves and the universe. This is the perspective that creativity is immanent in all things, not as top-down consciously imposed order but bottom-up self-organization. The perspective that follows from this is that existence is a tapestry of self-creating artwork with shared authorship and an endless multiplicity of meanings created by everything that comprises it; meaning isn't independent or dependent on the human subject, but interdependent.

Try to imagine this as an actual perception of reality, as opposed to sentences one merely upvotes or downvotes on Mindbook.

[Anonymous No.11552549]

>>>11552548
It's real but for us humans it is almost always fleeting. Recollection on moments of transcendental awe and beauty are considerably less awe inspiring and beautiful than the genuine article. The endgame for most is dissatisfaction with day to day life but belief that there will be more good to experience as we continue along.
To use a lame new age analogy:
>One usually starts seeking once they realize they're operating at a low frequency (Depressed, despairing, and nihilistic)
>As one seeks they prove to themselves that one can operate at high frequencies
>You also recognize that to maintain such a level you'd have to be a monkish hermit acetic, some messianic wacko, or a drug addled schizo
>You return to a baseline that is higher than you started but nowhere close to where you had been

For me it was doing deliriants on a twice weekly basis while completing my final year of undergraduate engineering. Fear and Trembilng, The Prince, The Bible, Prometheus Rising, and stuff on Quantum Mechanics were the main readings for me in that phase.

[Anonymous No.11552552]

>>11552549
Shucks..off by 1

[Anonymous No.11552556]

>>11550447
>>>/x/

[Anonymous No.11552562]

>>11552556
This, unironically

[Anonymous No.11552579]

>>11552556
/x/ is retarded. I don't like it but I can understand why a lot of cross media boarders post their inquiries here.

[Anonymous No.11552583]

>>11552579
/lit/ is the second smartest board in 4chan but the smartest board don't care about this kind of shit so I guess you came to the right place.

[Anonymous No.11552708]

>>11551357
open up the anal portal and let the universe penetrate within

[Anonymous No.11553012]

>>11552375
This. Enlightenment is just a buzzword created by nasty oriental madmen who wanted disciples to make themselves feel important. The cake is a lie.

[Anonymous No.11553040]

Enlightenment is real, its the feeling of oneness with everything. How do you arrive at such a feeling is up to you. But you can arrive. It lasts but a moment tho

[Anonymous No.11553520]

>>11552375
If someone brought all of this together and taught in a prescriptive fashion then it would be very worth having.

[Anonymous No.11554583]

>>11550441
"Enlightenment" is a pleb translation.
It's better phrased as "snuffing out."
A key part of the concept is it's less like gaining something and more like getting rid of something.
Hence the poison arrow metaphor. It's not that you're trying to become a superhuman and gain entry into eternal paradise, it's that you're severely fucked as you currently are and have been stuck in a horrific cycle of birth, death, and rebirth for much longer than you'd ever want to even begin imagining, and you need to stop falling for this shit and focus on seeing what's really going on or else you'll be stuck with eons more of the cyclic birth, death, and rebirth hell.

[Anonymous No.11554854]

>>11550441
DMT is all you need, desu

[Anonymous No.11554933]

>>11550441
Look up the Jungian concept of individuation. That is enlightenment. It is the male conscious uniting with the female subconscious like how Shiva and Parvati unite. This is what the hermetic hermaphrodite is alluding to.

[Anonymous No.11555708]

>>11550441
Define "spiritual"
Define "enlightenment"

[Anonymous No.11555809]

>>11552178
Mang, I feel what you are saying and I almost agree, but your expose is just a return to form. You advocate that "the big secret is actually that there is no secret" thing, and the inversion of perspective. I agree that part of enlightenment is giving away the concept of what you thought before that enlightenment is, but that's only the first steps. Any mystical tradition will indicate you that precisely (except certain new-age strands of Buddhism who make refuse to turn the page).

What you are suggesting is not self-implosion in nihilism, but self-implosion in base existentialism.

>>11552428
This is much better exposed, but it still represents an existential quasi-promethean model of being. It's easy to apply to middle to upper class society, but it fails for humanity as a whole; thus it's still a product meant for post-romantics.

The problem is that no latter the length to which you argue inter-dependency - which in itself is certainly a valid model for explaining the dynamics of being - like in Buddhism, this does NOT provide the complete answer; nor does it attack the genesis principle. It's just chewing the same secondary phenomena and calling it primal through feedback.

Words.

[Anonymous No.11556210]

>>11550441
>Is spiritual enlightenment real, or is it a wild goose chase?
"When stream entry occurred for me, I had never heard of pragmatic dharma, and I was completely unaware that stream entry was a thing that happened to regular people. I thought maybe Sharon Salzberg, the Dalai Lama, and one or two other people might have had it, and I had not even considered that it might happen to me. (...) Some people have the magga phala experience, which is a moment so mind-blowing that it’s clear stream entry has just happened. When I had the magga phala, even though I thought there were only maybe three awakened people, it was clear to me there were now four. (I called my teacher right after and told him, and he didn’t sound particularly amazed, which was my first inkling that many practitioners, both currently and throughout history, have had this experience). "
>Are there benefits of meditation, healthy eating and physical exercise on the "quality" or "vividness" of one's conscious awareness? Does mood and generally feeling good fit into this?
"Stream entry (as well as second path, and from what I’ve heard, other major insights) is frequently followed by an after-glow, when you feel the way you always imagined an enlightened person would feel. You are filled with positive emotion and, more shockingly, wisdom. Brilliant things are just pouring out of your mouth, and the transition has been so dramatic that it’s hard to remember what you were like beforehand, even if the transition was only minutes ago. (...) Stream entry is a change in vector, though it’s not necessarily a change in position. It’s as though all of the dharma, and any spiritual teaching you ever heard, has been trying to point your head so you’ll look at something, and now you’ve seen it. You may lose it immediately, but you’ll never forget the insight. (...) I once heard that the spiritual path prior to stream entry is like biking uphill, and after stream entry it’s like biking downhill, and this has been both my personal and teaching experience. Though not consistently true, you often get more “bang for your buck” with spiritual practice, and pretty much everyone I’ve seen go through this transition has found that the changes keep taking place even if you don’t do much practice (though they go faster if you do). Also, second path is so worth it."

[Anonymous No.11556221]

>>11556210
source: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/82cs9a/practice_musings_on_awakening/
Most strands of Buddhism are quite secretive about attainments, but so-called "Pragmatic Dharma" community sees secrecy more problematic than beneficial.

[Anonymous No.11556240]

>>11551622
Is Hobbes describing the Tetris Effect?

[Anonymous No.11556258]

If it's a wild goose chase then it's the wildest one there is. The only thing that would give meaning to an otherwise meaningless life is engaging in it.

[Anonymous No.11556413]

>>11552178

That is not enlightenment, that is babbies second or third existential crisis.

[Anonymous No.11556465]

Enlightenment is not a nail, you have so much more than just a hammer

[Anonymous No.11556474]

Eating healthy and doing physical exercise often is seriously the best cure for any kind of shit mood.

[Anonymous No.11556494]

>>11550441
"Enlightenment" is a very conservative political ideology desu

[Anonymous No.11556665]

>>11556465
If it were a nail, a hammer's the best tool for the job.
If it'd not then what's the best tool for the job?

[Anonymous No.11556677]

>>11556494
t. unenlightened.

[Anonymous No.11556682]

>>11550441
only one way to find out. Stop looking for reasons to take care of yourself and just do it. Philosophy exists for a reason, and in general, I'd say people that are philosophically inclined have more insight into life than your average joe; whether or not you want to call that 'enlightenment' is up to you. And 'enlightenment' doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. Outside the tenants of religion, you can think of it as wisdom.

In any case, you'll probably get better quality answers over at /his/ or /lit/ with this question.

[Anonymous No.11556689]

>>11550441
only one way to find out. Stop looking for reasons to take care of yourself and just do it. Philosophy exists for a reason, and in general, I'd say people that are philosophically inclined have more insight into life than your average joe; whether or not you want to call that 'enlightenment' is up to you. And 'enlightenment' doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. Outside the tenets of religion, you can think of it as wisdom.

In any case, you'll probably get better quality answers over at /his/ or /lit/ with this question.

[Anonymous No.11556714]

>>11556665
the metaphor goes deeper my friend

[Anonymous No.11556882]

Why do people assume there's only one way to become enlightened? People are different, why wouldn't our paths be the same?

[Anonymous No.11556955]

>>11556677
i've had revelatory and enlightened experiences and i kept them alive for years. however it is a very solipsistic mode and it doesn't lead to anything. problems are real and we have to deal with them. of course everything is one and so on if you want to emphasize the ethical implicaions of such a stance, but on the other hand, phenomenologically it isnt, and this is the only reality there is, everything else is just gnosticism.

[Anonymous No.11557137]

>>11550441

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

>moderate evidence that meditation reduces anxiety, depression, and pain, but there is no evidence that meditation is more effective than active treatment.

Anon, can you use google instead of 4chan to answer your questions when it literally takes one second to find out? Thank you.

[Anonymous No.11557451]

>>11550441
Read "The Mind Illuminated" by Culdasa

[Anonymous No.11557541]

>>11552375
You can learn from books and teachers.