The 48 Laws of Power

[Anonymous No.11549288]

I've loved this book for quite a while, but haven't really discussed it with anyone. I think /lit/ is capable of actually discussing stuff, so let's do it.

If your plan is to post about how the book is pleb-tier and I should go read [pretentious /lit/ suggestion that you haven't actually read], do it, but understand that pretending to like brilliant authors doesn't make you an authority on brilliance itself.

I'll ask a few questions and share my answers.

> favorite law?
Law 17: Keep Others in Suspended Terror: Cultivate an Air of Unpredictability. This one is especially good for situations where you're directly competing with someone for a goal. As a competitive person who plays a lot of sports with my friends, it's useful. The Bobby Fischer example where he defeats Boris Spassky through sporadic failure, unexpected overconfidence, and general insanity is a classic.

>criticism of the book?
It's purely anecdotal, but I do think that style is sensible in context of "power." It's hard to codify how it works, or even define it, and quantitative evidence is easy to misinterpret when making a maxim for goal-directed behavior. Still, I feel like there could be a few more psychological studies cited.
It's also a bit "reddit-le-INTJ-Rick&Morty-mastermind"-tier conceptually, but I don't think that detracts from the wealth of knowledge within it.

>other related shit?
Haven't read Robert Greene's other books but they're on my list. Anyone have thoughts on them?
Also, Ryan Holiday was Greene's apprentice and I've found his articles/website useful. Anyone read his book on marketing schemes?
What other stuff do you recommend?
Thoughts on the book in general?

>inb4 'The Prince'
We've all read it, cucklet

[Anonymous No.11550105]

you sound like a decent guy OP. bump.

[Anonymous No.11550642]

>>11549288
the prince

[Anonymous No.11550675]

This book is pleb-tier, read Cardinal Richelieu's Political Testaments instead.

[Anonymous No.11550678]

>>11549288

>If your plan is to post about how the book is pleb-tier

I think I'm gonna try something different, and post about how fucked up it is to conceptualize every situation in terms of these shitty-Darwinian power dynamics, something I'm sure a lot of readers of this work do or end up doing. There's a reason why this book is the most popular book in prisons. It speaks directly to and enforces the sort of belligerent hyperindividualism that characterizes a capitalist america where every job partially involves being a competitive salesman.

I mean fuck, it's just straight up sad. Law #2:

>Be wary of friends – they will betray you more quickly, for they are easily aroused to envy. They also become spoiled and tyrannical.

What kind of sociopathic shit-tier life is this, where you think this of your friends? I've had my friends since childhood. This american self-help faggot turns them into disposable commodities who'll turn on you as soon as it furthers their own belligerent, narcissistic hyperindividualism. Who the fuck thinks of their friends like this? I thought Christopher Lasch was weak when I read him, but you made me think about the culture he was responding to OP, a culture I haven't thought about for a long time because I think it is supremely faggy, and now I see just how pertinent he is.

But tell me, what context are these laws to be used in? Every context? Only work? But then again, he talks about friends, so I guess it's your private life as well.

This seems like nothing but sociopathic wank.

[Anonymous No.11550755]

>>11550678

I just skimmed through a few more of the paragraphs, and holy shit Lasch is the perfect antidote to this wank:

>Law 25: Re-create yourself. Do not accept the roles that society foists on you. Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience. Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define it for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

Command attention and never bore the audience - sweet Christ. Read the Culture of Narcissism OP. And I want anyone reading this thread to seriously consider these laws - OK, if we, for the sake of argument alone, accept that this is power, this is how you get to the top of the foodchain (notice how fucked up the metaphors are in this worldview?) do you even want that? Do you want to live life like this? The mere fact that you spend time on 4chan suggests that you don't have the work ethic of 80-120 hour work weeks required to make it to the true, real top, so why do you want to emulate the sociopathic faggots who are there? It's like taking the tradeoff without the benefit.

I just don't get it man.

[Anonymous No.11550815]

>“Everyone assumes I practise all of my own laws but I don’t. I think anybody who did would be a horrible ugly person to be around,” laughs Greene
>The younger son of Jewish parents, Greene grew up in West Los Angeles

[Anonymous No.11551962]

>>11549288
>I think /lit/ is capable of actually discussing stuff, so let's do it.
/lit/ thinks Robert Greene's a joke, (which he is)

[Anonymous No.11551980]

>>11549288
48 Laws needs to be added to the chart.

[Anonymous No.11552051]

I remember a few of the rules were based off the stories of how famous scammers maneuver. Not gonna actively try to become more theif like.

[Anonymous No.11552102]

>>11550755
Have you read the very opening to the book? Power is in nearly everything we do. Obviously, a life without love, friends, and joy is brutal, sociopathic nonsense. But that's not what 48 Laws advocates for- it's just a guidebook to gain power and avoid losing it. You use it at work, you don't use it at home.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.11552110]

>>11550105
Made my fuckin day, anonymous friend.

[Anonymous No.11552162]

>>11551980
>Seinfeld hate

[Anonymous No.11552250]

>>11550755
OP here. On second thought, I just reread your post. You wrote an in-depth, genuine criticism and deserve a better response than my shitty initial "hurr-durr read the opening."

> fucked up it is to conceptualize every situation in terms of these shitty-Darwinian power dynamics
Hard to argue with this. An argument could be made, though, that such dynamics are an underlying structure for every interaction, though there are many other evo-psych dynamics at play too. If you look at your gf and the first thing you think is "how can I come out of this encounter with more power?", you're probably a huge fuck. But if you look at your gf and think "power isn't related to this interaction in the slightest," I'd say you're a wishful romantic.

>What kind of sociopathic shit-tier life is this, where you think this of your friends? I've had my friends since childhood.
When I read this law, I just assumed it means to separate your friends and work. If you start a business, don't hire your friends, etc.
But I suppose that's my own bias for the book turning me into an apologist. At first glance; yeah, it's sociopathic.

>what context are these laws to be used in?
Context, in the book, is taken to be up to you. Greene says power is in every situation, but you shouldn't navigate every situation by the laws. It's more like a toolbox than an instruction manual.

>Read the Culture of Narcissism OP
Put it on my list. Thanks for the rec.

>The mere fact that you spend time on 4chan suggests that you don't have the work ethic of 80-120 hour work weeks required to make it to the true, real top
Ouch anon no need to murder my soul

Overall, I think you're pretty good at roasting the trend of narcissism being repackaged and sold under "Self-help." But I do think Greene is a fair amount deeper and more complex than others in his genre, and the book works just as well as a set of historical case studies. He put more effort into one chapter of 48 Laws than most gurus put into their whole book.
It does seem shallow when you only read the laws (they're written for dramatic effect), but I can assure you the book isn't the same brand of reddit-redpill-sociopathy.

[Anonymous No.11552322]

I think this is too extreme and an amoral approach to life, perhaps only useful in only a handful of jobs. This is the sort of self help I've looked at years ago, on /b/ of all places, along with such classics as "The Manual of a Hitman". Quite ridiculous material when you look back, but even then I only read it from curiosity.

For everyday life it is much more useful and fulfilling to lead a moral life, IRL sociopaths actually don't get far in life as they lead it just to prey on their victims, and when found out they have to move on. Such attitude has found an outlet in the form of internet celebrities, or perhaps internet fame causes one to lose touch with reality. Anyway, even "12 rules of life" by Peterson is a much better book.

[Anonymous No.11552355]

>>11550678
>>11550755

Thank you for making these posts. You are one of the few smart people on this board.

[Anonymous No.11552373]

>>11549288

If you like this book, it's because you feel weak somehow. You can tell yourself it's "educational" or whatever, but it's because you feel overlooked and unloved. The emotional motivation behind this stuff is always really obvious. Same thing with pick-up artistry. None of the "rules" in this book will help. You're not going to become some Little Finger, Machiavellian social maestro. You're just going to come off as a weird performative weirdo. You have deeper problems. Please try and find them before it's too late. Maybe therapy. Please drop this stuff. You deserve love. This is not the way. I love you.

[Anonymous No.11552408]

My criticism is not of the book itself, but at the delusions it instils in its readers.

People that read this, like most people that read The Price, or Influence (Cialdini), think that upon having finished these books, they suddenly acquire the power to manipulate, persuade, or otherwise control others, when in reality these pop-psychology books are just primers -- introductory texts -- which one would take years of practice to actually masters their principles.

You're not going to be great salesman, advertising executive, or business leader just because you know a few tricks or pointers. By all means read them and try out the strategies or ideas or whatever, but just know, you're still an introverted guy who's likely going to struggle when it comes to influencing others.

[Anonymous No.11552412]

>>11552373
>You deserve love.

So? You get what you get, not what you deserve. The rules in the OP speak of a part of a human psyche, perhaps a part we want to deny we don't have, but a part we come across in others often enough. I'm not wary of my friends as rule 2 suggests, but I know with a sad certainty ther every friendship that doesn't end in betrayal, or some degree of calloussness, ends in death. This is why I cleverly have no friends and depend only on myself for happiness.

[Anonymous No.11552414]

>>11552408 Here, I agree with >>11552373

[Anonymous No.11552421]

>>11552373
what a terrible post.
>you're fucked up
>you got some problem
>wow dude get some therapy haha

>i love you

[Anonymous No.11552433]

>>11552421
what an image, I'm curious where did you get it from?

[Anonymous No.11552478]

>>11552373

[Anonymous No.11552483]

>>11552433
some board in 2014 or something.

I gotta get off this shit site.

[Anonymous No.11552693]

I know two guys who have read this book and worship it. Coincidentally, their problems only got worse and people now actively avoid them.

I think there is some truth in this book, but I think a good question is whether it’s even beneficial to know that truth or not. I’m under the opinion that it’s not.

[Anonymous No.11553355]

>>11550678
>>11550755
It is a book on managing power. If you don't have very much power (i.e. 99% of people) then it is sociopath tier. But if you are a very wealthy person trying not to get duped, while simultaneously duping other people, then it is a fantastic book.

[Anonymous No.11553360]

>>11552162
Who is hating?

[Anonymous No.11553446]

>>11550678
>>11550755
These were really good posts anon, thank you

[Anonymous No.11553514]

>>11550678
>What kind of sociopathic shit-tier life is this, where you think this of your friends?

How sheltered are you exactly?

[Anonymous No.11553527]

>>11550678
"Friends" betray each other CONSTANTLY. They always have, and always will.

Maybe you have a few friends who are nice, and those are gems. But if you even look back at history, there's just "friends" betraying each other constantly

[Anonymous No.11553550]

>>11553514
nah he's right
it's the norm that friends actual act like friends
maybe not in a mafia, among yuppies, the upper classes, in the drug trade, on reality tv, or whatever
but they're exceptional, thirdworld/american shit-tier lives lived by people who perceive their friends as hating them only as much as they hate themselves

[Anonymous No.11553571]

>>11552373
>if you lift weights its because you feel weak

[Anonymous No.11553573]

>>11552408
Ya but the point is to learn the ideas and exercise them

[Anonymous No.11553591]

>>11549288

>law 17
and yet people still think Trump is dumb.

[Anonymous No.11553603]

>>11553550
Lmao what

Friends fuck each other's wives/girlfriends all the time, steal money, throw each other under the bus, tell lies about each other to cover themselves, and many other things.

Of course there exists "good friends", but there is also a common idea that "Good friends are hard to come by", because there is the assumption that friends in general just aren't that trustworthy. Which is also why "Blood is thicker than water".

>FRIENDS ARE ALWAYS GOOD I HAVE A CHILDHOOD FRIEND DON'T BE SO NEGATIVE I DONT LIKE IT
absolutely brainlet-tier

[Anonymous No.11554290]

>>11553571

You're not lifting weight. You're consuming homeopathic work-out supplements which are probably giving you some kind of cancer.

[Anonymous No.11554316]

>>11549288
This book is idiotic. Here's why:

1) It's a collection of anecdotes, not concrete laws. Kauffeman's thinking fast and slow shows a clear delineation in the predictive powers of closed and open systems. The stories presented in the 48 laws are open systems, therefore their predictive powers are nil. Moreover, the 48 laws are have a seductive, illusory quality because the human mind is made to think in terms of stories. However, reaching back to my earlier point, stories are open systems and thus not well applied to novel situations. This brings me to point 2
2) The anecdotes openly contradict one another.

To reiterate, what's good advice in one situation may be foolhardy in another.

TL;DR It's a meme book. Don't bother.

[Anonymous No.11554334]

I've read the book cover to cover, if anything I learned some about European court figures, that's mostly it

It's a book that in being amoral abdicates responsibility for the consequences of the laws it preaches: as anon above said, there's a reason it's the most requested book in prison libraries. What am I going to think of a book that is held in high esteem in many prisons? This alone speaks for itself...

[Anonymous No.11554384]

>>11554290
The book just gives you ideas on how to navigate maleficent people (which the world is full of)

hilarious how butthurt this makes the basedboys on here
>NO MOMMY LIFE IS JUST LIKE A DISNEY MOVIE :(((((

[Anonymous No.11554390]

>>11554334
>What am I going to think of a book that is held in high esteem in many prisons?
Prisons are full of humans

The world is full of humans

These things are going to cross over

[Anonymous No.11554399]

>>11550675
link?

[Anonymous No.11554409]

>>11554390

people in prisons =/= general population as a whole

certain character traits can be inferred

[Anonymous No.11555265]

>>11552322
>>11550678
>>11550755
>>11552693

It seems obvious to me that the book has some good advice, but treating it like an instruction manual for life would have terrible results and in the hands of an unintelligent, resentful autist it would probably do more harm to him than good.

These posts:
>>11553527
>>11553603

Have tons of truth to them. In the end everything in the world is defined by power by definition: power is exactly that which exercises control over reality. Everyone should be trying to become more powerful. That last sentence only sounds like an edgelord statement because its been memed into sounding like one: most smart people try to accumulate power quietly and don't go spouting off about it and poorly applying "techniques" which is another point of the book.

Someone who reads this book and imagines themselves as some Machiavelli Jr. is ultimately larping and may be doing so to cover some hurt, for sure. A smart person will read this, take what he can from it, and continue on the journey of life, the most important part of which is increasing one's control over his surroundings so that he may pursue his goals, protect his interests, and change the world in the way that he wishes to. That's what life is.

[Anonymous No.11555591]

>>11549288
Its a good enough book on power, and Robert Greene is a good egg. But you should know that no rule is an absolute and one strategy that may work in one place may not work in another. And also people who use tricks like this are LOATHED by people who can spot them, you may even get physically assaulted if you try to trick someone who is tough. A lot of people have grown up in very tough Machiavellian situations and want nothing more that a normal life away from the trauma of their upbringing.

Since you are on 4chan making threads i assume you are a white suburban kid who has very little life experience. Just live your life, be kind and good to your fellow humans, seek meaningful relations and dont try to be someone your not. There is a lot of misfortune down that path.

[Anonymous No.11555609]

>>11555265
>In the end everything in the world is defined by power by definition
No its defined by survival, and the passing on of your and your tribes genes. This is why hunter gatherers are practically communist, sure there is a benefit too winning over other people. But then there is also making sure the group wins for you are part of the group. This is why societies with the strongest cohesion tend to be the strongest.

And also everything we do IS NOT rational, there are things we want out of life, like good friendships sexual pleasure and comfort, and these are best earned by forging strong relationships with people.

[Anonymous No.11555622]

>>11554384
you are literally defending an american self-help book
examine what you are doing

[Anonymous No.11555713]

>>11550678
this
it's the ultimate subhuman bugman book

[Anonymous No.11555725]

>>11552373
based
these anons dont deserve you

[Anonymous No.11555825]

>>11550755
I think you have to think of this stuff Inna corporate context.
My friends are people I drink and do fun shit with. If they wanted to betray me, they'd really have no reason or opportunity to do so.

I've never had a genuine work friend that didn't become a genuine friend after I left. The corporate environment is generally pretty amoral and.

[Anonymous No.11556254]

>>11555609
>No its defined by survival, and the passing on of your and your tribes genes.

And how is this guaranteed?

> This is why hunter gatherers are practically communist, sure there is a benefit too winning over other people. But then there is also making sure the group wins for you are part of the group. This is why societies with the strongest cohesion tend to be the strongest.

All of these are strategies that are based on managing power in a group setting. Also, as a sidenote: you are trying to use fucking hunter-gatherer societies as an example of what you're talking about when we live in a highly individualized age. The configurations of power are different.

>And also everything we do IS NOT rational,

We don't do things for rational reasons all the time, but everything we do can be rationally understood and is governed by reason. To make it clearer: it might not be rational for someone to get pissed and blow up a social situation, but I can sure understand why they ended up doing so.

>and these are best earned by forging strong relationships with people.

You clearly aren't understanding what I'm saying if you have it your head that I'm opposed to this. Again, divorce what I said from your alarmist anti-edgelord heuristics.

[Anonymous No.11556414]

>>11556254
>And how is this guaranteed?
not by everyone in the group seeking immediate power, thats for sure.
>All of these are strategies that are based on managing power in a group setting
Yes it is slightly different now, but nations get corrupt and implode, and dishonesty and egotism is the root cause. This is why every civilisation develops severe taboos against those things.
>but everything we do can be rationally understood and is governed by reason.
Wrong, i like to sit for 30 minutes on my balcony smoking a cigarette some nights, i simply enjoy the moment, and i don't even smoke normally. And you find this all the time, people pursue other things than power. Sometimes they simply enjoy something for the moment.
>You clearly aren't understanding what I'm saying
I do, you are not a Machiavellian fuck wit, but you still hold essentially a utilitarian world view. But i claim that is a mistake. For sometimes trying to be smart and utilitarian can kick you in your own leg since most (if not all) people are not nearly as smart as they think. A dogmatic belief in morals and being honest might not seem valuable even in a long term analysis but it could be immediately rewarding.

[Anonymous No.11556532]

The Prince was supposed to be a guide on how politics work, with a special emphasis on the bad shit politicians do. The whole point of the book was to show how disconnected the world of politics is from normal life.

I sincerely hope none of you try applying these advices in your day to day life, you're not some evil mastermind trying to gain absolute power over people, you're just a regular guy who wants to love and be loved by others.

[Anonymous No.11556644]

>>11556414
>not by everyone in the group seeking immediate power, thats for sure.

The fact that you had to qualify power in your response shows that you know you're wrong.

>Yes it is slightly different now, but nations get corrupt and implode, and dishonesty and egotism is the root cause. This is why every civilisation develops severe taboos against those things

Which is another form of power. Nietzsche was 100% correct when he indicated that morality itself is just another power play, and you just offered an example of the purpose.

>Wrong, i like to sit for 30 minutes on my balcony smoking a cigarette some nights, i simply enjoy the moment, and i don't even smoke normally. And you find this all the time, people pursue other things than power. Sometimes they simply enjoy something for the moment.

You completely misunderstood what you responded to here and went off on an irrelevant tangent. Read it again.

>I do, you are not a Machiavellian fuck wit, but you still hold essentially a utilitarian world view.

Again, you're displaying that you're not understanding what I'm saying. Go back and reread my posts. You think that I'm arguing that everyone should be trying to gain Machiavellan personal power and that's what everyone does all the time. You're wrong.

>A dogmatic belief in morals and being honest might not seem valuable even in a long term analysis but it could be immediately rewarding.

Again, this further proves the point that ultimately everything is based on power. You're trying to tell me that I should believe in morals because it might reward me, i.e., it might be a useful way of structuring my reality.

[Anonymous No.11556692]

>>11556644
>You think that I'm arguing that everyone should be trying to gain Machiavellan personal power
no. I am saying that behavior is not always motivated by power even, you tell a 5 year old he shouldn't steal, and he doesn't. He has no idea about the consequences of theft or honesty but he nonetheless does this. His parents might not know why he shouldn't steal but culture placed it upon them as well.

No one in this scenario is acting rationally yet they follow the inertia of their culture which keeps them safe. and yes its a form of power but none of the actors think of themselves as instruments of power, so too say that their world is one of power i think is iffy.

[Anonymous No.11556743]

I grew up reading this man's books but it wasn't until I came to Christ that I realized that a lot of his works are anti-Christ.

He pushes Darwinian evolution in his newest book, Mastery. His works are to be avoided at all cost. The kind of lifestyle that those books push is full of strive and angst because you're never at ease with others, much less yourself. Just look at some of his most recent interviews and take a good note of his entire personality/demeanor.

Now, I'm not personally bashing the guy. But you should definitely question what kind of ideas he pushes on you through his literature.

[Anonymous No.11556783]

self help shite

[Anonymous No.11557094]

>>11553603
The whole saying is
"Blood of the bond is thicker than water of the womb"

[Anonymous No.11557106]

>>11549288
Even the title is formatted like fucking clickbait trash.

[Anonymous No.11557182]

>>11556692
>and yes its a form of power

And we agree

[Anonymous No.11557240]

>>11550678
>This american self-help faggot turns them into disposable commodities who'll turn on you as soon as it furthers their own belligerent, narcissistic hyperindividualism. Who the fuck thinks of their friends like this?

He's Jewish.

[Anonymous No.11557359]

>>11557182
but see in your first post:
>>11555265
you claimed that:
>most smart people try to accumulate power quietly and don't go spouting off about it and poorly applying "techniques" which is another point of the book.

I disagree, most people dont necessarily "quietly" pursue power, they act in a accordance of what society and culture expects of them, even if this grants them power in the long run, it is not their lived experience.

[Anonymous No.11558701]

Bad for any serious life lessons for normal functioning human beings.

Good if you're a Sith Lord or some shit maybe.

[Anonymous No.11558725]

I really wish Robert Greene would write, "8 Simple Rules for Basic Social Functioning" or something in the same style but aimed at aspies like me. You can't just go from being a regular 4chan weirdo to applying the 48 laws without coming off as cringe and getting in trouble. I need to get to normie-level first.

[Anonymous No.11558979]

>>11557359
> they act in a accordance of what society and culture expects of them

As you go on to say, they do this precisely because it is the accumulation of a form of power. If acting in accordance with other humans did nothing for you, no one would do it. But it wins you cooperation, access to resources, protection, etc. etc. What you're essentially doing is marrying your interests to the interests of the group in the hopes that an exchange of freedom will win you greater or easier avenues to those interests. We call this "security". It's a power strategy. Most enterprising and intelligent individuals will then attempt to increase their power within the group itself, as a way of increased influence over the shared pool of interests that they themselves are a part of. To you, all of this would probably look like "moral behavior".

[Anonymous No.11558983]

>>11558725

lol same

[Anonymous No.11560249]

>>11558725
there are no specific rules to succeed, there can only be rules to learn how to not fail

[Anonymous No.11560301]

>>11550678
>Muh Capitalist America

Just because you're a lowly low-earner.

[Anonymous No.11560882]

>>11549288
t. 13 year old 'Sociopath'

[Anonymous No.11560900]

I read his books for all the cool historical stories

[Anonymous No.11560905]

>>11549288
This thread is fucking garbage.

Aside from some of the ethical considerations that other posters pointed out, my main contention with this book is that is extremely presumptuous. Most of the historical [including ones from contemporary history] examples cited by Greene are assumed to have been the results of the conviction of a rational schemer whose plans were undeviating and meticulously planned from the onset, instead of the a fortuitous synthesis of personality aspects that are extrinsic to Machiavellianism in their entirety [and, quite frankly, can't be cultivated if you're above a formative age] and pure circumstance & luck.

[Anonymous No.11560915]

>>11560905
woahh big words!

[Anonymous No.11560995]

>>11558725
There's already thousands of books written on how to not be a complete social retard.
Read How to Win Friends and Influence People.

[Anonymous No.11561012]

>>11560905

what a pretentious post

[Anonymous No.11561201]

>>11549288
Let's break this down in a simple way.

Is this book useful for an ordinary citizen? No. When your life is about paychecks, children, and holidays with your family, you don't exactly need a manual on power tactics. This book has nothing to offer to an ordinary citizen, which is 99%.

Is this book useful for the top 1%? Of course not. Top 1% knew about these tactics long before the book was written. On top of that, the tone of the book is suited for general public, so people in the top tier position are not going to waste time on such books. It's much more likely that top 1% read something that has stood the test of time, not a modern-day "bestseller".

This books fails on both levels. It offers nothing to the general public, and similarly fails to address what may be useful for people at the top of the social hierarchy. The purpose of the book comes down to the author writing in a way that the usual reader will find interesting and compelling to read. That's the whole purpose.

Mass market paperbacks are not going to give you anything new, who are you kidding.

[Anonymous No.11561216]

>>11560905
This.

The hyper-individualism operates in a way that makes you think that everything that has happened to you is solely the result of your efforts and mastermind. There is no space for luck or coincidence.