Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.11479650]

Don't pretend this isn't /lit/ related given how dominant postcolonial theory is in literature departments.

>This Viewpoint essay has been withdrawn at the request of the academic journal editor, and in agreement with the author of the essay. Following a number of complaints, Taylor & Francis conducted a thorough investigation into the peer review process on this article. Whilst this clearly demonstrated the essay had undergone double-blind peer review, in line with the journal's editorial policy, the journal editor has subsequently received serious and credible threats of personal violence. These threats are linked to the publication of this essay. As the publisher, we must take this seriously. Taylor & Francis has a strong and supportive duty of care to all our academic editorial teams, and this is why we are withdrawing this essay.

[Anonymous No.11479659]

This isn't /lit/ related. If you want to discuss politics, go to >>>/pol/. You might even be able to post it on >>>/int/

[Anonymous No.11479662]

>>11479650
colonialism was shit

[Anonymous No.11479681]

>>11479650
It's more important to us, in the modern world, that the individual has the freedoms we believe are healthy for the experience of a single human than the greater good of civilization. Nobody cares that left to their own devices a group of people may sustain a cyclical, endless period of violence as long as we perceive it is their choice. We would rather thrust the burden of choice and autonomy (regardless of whether or not we believe such a thing exists) onto these people than """colonize""" them because the post-industrial world is grappling with the question of free will and in the absence of any convincing answers it is paramount until proven otherwise.

[Anonymous No.11479689]

>>11479681
trash

[Anonymous No.11479759]

>>11479650
>Don't pretend this isn't /lit/ related

It isn’t, go back to /his/ or /pol/

[Anonymous No.11479786]

pretty interesting article desu, would recommend reading it

[Anonymous No.11479802]

Chinks will make africa not a shithole. Whitey tried and failed.

[Anonymous No.11479837]

>>11479802
Chinks haven’t even succeeded in making they own country not a shithole

[Anonymous No.11479842]

The news here isn't that colonialism had more going for it than people give it credit.

The news is that T&F pulled a legitimate academic publication because they were coerced by death threats.

[Anonymous No.11479868]

>>11479650
>given how dominant postcolonial theory is in literature departments.
Literally only in American unis

[Anonymous No.11479871]

Here's a philsophical question for you: why is eating shit bad? Do you think eating chicken is bad? How about sushi? Carrots? If you answered no to ANY of those, then you shouldn't have a problem with poop. Poop is LITERALLY digested food with a bitter aftertaste. Nothing wrong with eating a delicious plateful of poop!

[Anonymous No.11479907]

>>11479871
Shit has little to no nutritional value, unlike chicken, sushi or carrots.

There are risks of developing an infection from eating shit, which increase if it isn't your own shit you're eating.

Shit tastes bad - people that enjoy eating things that taste bad are usually mentally unstable - so by extension, eating shit makes you mentally unstable.

[Anonymous No.11479922]

Read the article, take a stand on its validity, discuss the issue. There you go:

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~gilleyb/2_The%20case%20for%20colonialism_at2Oct2017.pdf

[Anonymous No.11479959]

>>11479922
>The case for the past record of Western colonialism – usually referring to British, French, German, Belgian, Dutch and Portuguese colonies from the early nineteenth to mid-twentieth
centuries – rests on overturning two distinct lines of criticism: that it was objectively harmful (rather than beneficial); and that it was subjectively illegitimate (rather than legitimate).
from p.2

Here's where I could see the argument being refuted. The author leaves out a third line of criticism: that colonialism was subjectively harmful. It warps the self-perceptions of colonized peoples so that they carry with the permanent psychological scars of having been oppressed.

[Anonymous No.11479990]

>>11479868
Not true.
No need to say literally here either.

[Anonymous No.11480010]

>>11479650
It always comes back to defining what is 'good' in a society and for 'who'.
A lot of time and energy gets wasted on infinite arguments, but this fundamental question is almost never addressed.

If you just take HDI or whatever standards for quality of life, it wouldn't be crazy to suggest that, for example, the US slavery benefited blacks and that they should be the ones paying reparations to white people.

It's all a matter of perspective and who controls the narrative.

[Anonymous No.11480055]

>>11480010
I thought Gilley was pretty clear about what constituted good here. He mostly focused on relative lack of open warfare, relative lack of corruption, and relatively high access to life-preserving technologies (medicine, clean water, agriculture).

At least then he puts his interlocutors in a position where they have to come up with a definition of good society that doesn't include those things.

[Anonymous No.11480059]

>>11479842
This, why write a controversial essay for publishment if the masses can lambast it back into the tree it was pulped from

[Anonymous No.11480225]

I don't know if this is /pol/ trying to be subtle or a serious thread, but I strongly suggest you to read Mamita Yunai and One Hundred Years of Solitude.
Yes, those things happened. In Mamita Younai they just put everything in a book and changed the names of the characters while Gabriel García Márquez made sure to cover everything with the cloth of bizarreness.

[Anonymous No.11480240]

>>11480225
Just because some bad things happened, it doesn't invalidate colonialism in general.

[Anonymous No.11480265]

>>11480240
Okay

[Anonymous No.11480278]

>>11480240
I can only imagine what would the millions of people who fought, bleed and died in their fight against colonialism say about it.

[Anonymous No.11480292]

>>11479990
It is true, so there was a reason to say it

[Anonymous No.11480364]

>>11480240
It's a question of whether you think the bad things that happened were because of or despite colonialism.

What did you think of this quote from the article?
>Colonialism is credited with near-magical powers to sweep away everything good in its path (like tribal chiefs or ethnic identity) and with equally magical powers to make permanent everything bad in its path (like tribal chiefs or ethnic identity).

>>11480278
Did you read the article? In some cases, there were just as many natives signing up to defend colonialism as there were people fighting against it. Just because the anti-colonial armies won, doesn't mean they represented the voice of the people, nor does it mean that they were right.

[Anonymous No.11480598]

>>11480364
To be fair colonialism was shit

[Anonymous No.11480696]

>>11479650
It would've been for fun and had more salt mining potential if he were to write an article on how postcolonialism is really just crypto-ethnonationalism.

[Anonymous No.11480698]

Alright whiteboy. Here's a thought for you. Let's see if you can handle it. You ready? Here it comes.

How about this - you and your people stay out of other people's lands. Mind your own business and we'll mind ours.

[Anonymous No.11480719]

>>11480698
>How about this - you and your people stay out of other people's lands. Mind your own business and we'll mind ours.
Sure, on the condition every non-white person is white people lands return to their own lands.

[Anonymous No.11480723]

>>11480719
*Every non-white person who are in

[Anonymous No.11480738]

Spain founded 28 universities in its colonies

[Anonymous No.11480740]

>>11479662
Well it literally developed most of East Asia and Africa was much better off under European rule than it is now.

[Anonymous No.11480744]

>>11480698
Then all refugees and illegal immigrants should go back by that logic

[Anonymous No.11480747]

>>11480744
Also all the white people from the us

[Anonymous No.11480749]

>>11480698
We will. If you give back all the wealth you took from the colonies and that you used to finance your industry and drive capitalism. And, if you reverse the deaths caused by starvation and war that was a direct result of your policies.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

[Anonymous No.11480759]

>>11480719

We will. If you give back all the wealth you took from the colonies and that you used to finance your industry and drive capitalism. And, if you reverse the deaths caused by starvation and war that was a direct result of your policies.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Quoted my own post >>11480698 by mistake. Ignore.

[Anonymous No.11480761]

>>11480747
Really? We were here first those Neo-Siberians came over after Solutreans.

[Anonymous No.11480763]

>>11480740
>Africa was much better off under European rule than it is now

That’s simply not true

[Anonymous No.11480769]

>>11480744

Alright genius, here's one for you. What happened first? The colonization or non-white immigration to white countries?

Non-white immigration is only a logical consequence of colonialism. You guys should've stayed in your own fucking lands. Can't reverse time now so deal with it whitey.

[Anonymous No.11480774]

>>11480759
>And, if you reverse the deaths caused by starvation and war that was a direct result of your policies.
>reverse the deaths
That's literally impossible, and people wonder why nogs have such low IQ's.

[Anonymous No.11480777]

>>11480763
You should watch Empire of Dust to gain an understanding of the state of African infrastructure post colonial era.

Also years in school is recent phenomenon even in European and Asians societies and is no way represented of quality of life.

[Anonymous No.11480783]

>>11480769
Well you said we should fuck off. So if we do you should too.

[Anonymous No.11480795]

>>11480777
>You should watch Empire of Dust to gain an understanding of the state of African infrastructure post colonial era

Nah, I would rather rely on objective statistics

[Anonymous No.11480799]

>>11480777
>>11480763
Furthermore the average American is far better educated today than previously but quality of life has been decreasing since the 70's

>>11480795
>1980
>Colonialism
At least used relevant facts.

[Anonymous No.11480809]

>>11480795
>>11480799
Funny enough too since the Soviets were supporting most Africa at the time rather than the West this actually implies socialism/communism was quite shit. Not to mention the large infant mortality rate was caused by the Colonial order collapsing.

[Anonymous No.11480810]

>>11480799
>At least used relevant facts

Ok

[Anonymous No.11480816]

>>11480774
>Doesn't understand the use of hyperbole to drive home a point.
>Calls others low IQs
>"Everybody who disagrees with me must be African!"

The absolute state of wh*te """people"""

>>11480783
What fuck off? You already fucked off back in 1947 when you'd drained us dry of resources for 200 years. Can't get that back now. Either give that wealth back or accept your countries slowly getting browner and browner.

[Anonymous No.11480830]

how the fuck did this get published. even the abstract is crap
for colonialism supporters, just see Gaza as purely symptomatic

[Anonymous No.11480834]

>>11480763
>using education as a metric for quality of life
>using the modern map of Africa for 1950's Africa

[Anonymous No.11480837]

>>11480816
You still have plenty of resources. If I was you I would complain about what Muslims did to India rather than the British. Not mention the British left you with alot of infrastructure.

>>11480810
Back to educational strawmans. Education level has not real bearing on quality of life. Most countries prior to 1953 including Asia had poor literacy rates. Education rates have been increasing through out history everywhere. Not to mention what were the literacy rates pre-Colonialism?

[Anonymous No.11480868]

>>11480816
>Actually admitting to using hyperbole in argument and being intellectually dishonest
Have you no shame?

[Anonymous No.11480869]

>>11480834
Do you actually have any statistics to back up your claim that Africa was better off under colonialism or no?

[Anonymous No.11480874]

>>11480837
Alright you fucking shill, how about I take away half the gold reserves your country has, destroy vital infrastructure, starve people deliberately? How about I do this for 200 years? Would you be okay with it because at the end of it you'll have "plenty of resources left"?
Educate yourself whiteboy: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2031992,00.html

We're already dealing with the Muslims in our own way. But the fact remains that Muslim atrocities are no match for British atrocities.
Whites must pay.

[Anonymous No.11480875]

>>11480837
>Education level has not real bearing on quality of life

Are you literally retarded?

[Anonymous No.11480883]

>>11480868
>On a literature board
>Doesn't understand or appreciate rhetoric

American education, everyone.

[Anonymous No.11480892]

>>11480875
see
>>11480799

[Anonymous No.11480900]

>>11480892
Pretty much all economists agree that education is positively correlated with economic growth: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/EDUCATION/Resources/278200-1099079877269/547664-1099079934475/Edu_Quality_Economic_Growth.pdf

[Anonymous No.11480906]

>>11480874
>Whites must pay.
Whites is too vacuous of a term to use, and it's not like colonialism was a racial conspiracy that all white people were in on. That's like /pol/ blaming the jews for all of society's problem. Are you referring to the English? The French? The Dutch? The Spanish? Be specific.

[Anonymous No.11480925]

What is responsible for the current dismal state of Africa? One reason, economists believe, is that colonial powers created "artificial states" on the continent, leading to civil wars: https://academic.oup.com/jeea/article-abstract/9/2/246/2298413?redirectedFrom=PDF

Another reason is that colonial powers established "extractive institutions" (see Acemoglu and Robinson) that left governments dysfunctional for many decades.

[Anonymous No.11480931]

>>11480874
Your arguments seem to only apply for 1920s-1940s. Not to mention most of those things seemed to occur during wartime according to your source.

>>11480900
Economic growth has no real factor in quality of life for the average person if their wages do not increase. Average US wages have stagnated for a very long time. Quality of life can be closely associated with average buy power. Thus if we want to see if quality of life increased we must see what the average persons buying power is. Currently economic development in Africa is being spurred by Chinese Colonialism. There has been no cases of independent Africa countries developing without outside aid.

[Anonymous No.11480939]

>>11480906
My ancestors were colonised by the British, so in this case it is the British who must pay. But, let's not pretend whites do not possess an in-group preference and racial solidarity for people of their own race. If that weren't true we wouldn't have whites in America caring about what happens to whites in South Africa or Europe. Why are British whites concerned about what's happening in Sweden? And why are French whites worried about migrants taking over Germany? Why are Trump supporters cheering for Brexit, Nigel farage and Le Pen?

Take this "whites are all unique atomised individuals when it comes to taking responsibility for what they've done collectively but every other race isn't" crap elsewhere.

>inb4 muh SJWs are white
>inb4 most leftists are white

Are they white or "white"? And anyways, they're a vocal, irrelevant minority that has no power.

[Anonymous No.11480943]

>>11480925
Invalid argument. China is extremely multi ethnic. Austria Hungary was one of the great European powers and was completely artificial in terms of population demographics. Most East Asia states were left like than but developed into outright powers in themselves. It could be argue Korea was left in a worse state than former African colonies by Japan and yet they are an extremely dominate society today.

[Anonymous No.11480944]

>>11480740
Like in the Belgian congo?

[Anonymous No.11480953]

>>11480943
China/Austira weren't subjected to the same extremes of colonialism that african countries dealt with.
Korea got major military support from US, and is close to china/japan and their massive economies.

[Anonymous No.11480954]

>>11480943
>China is extremely multi ethnic

China is 91.5% Han and it is a third world shithole

>and was completely artificial in terms of population demographics

Which is why it eventually collapsed

[Anonymous No.11480960]

>>11480939
And you do not have an in racial preference for Indians? You are allowed to be proud of your people.

>>11480944
Still a step from being tribal cannibals.

[Anonymous No.11480975]

>>11480874
>Whites must pay.
This sort of attitude is ultimately why we Westerners shouldn't have any sympathy for the previously colonized. But capitalism is one hell of a drug, I guess.

[Anonymous No.11480983]

>>11480960
Because all africans are cannibals. /s
White trash faggot.

[Anonymous No.11480984]

>>11480953
Oh and those African Countries didn't receive massive military support from the Soviet Union/China?

>>11480954
>Han Chinese
Its literally a fucking meme man.
>Austria Hungary
Yes after the most devastating war in human History. Austria lasted 100s of years as a power.

[Anonymous No.11480990]

>>11480983
Its extremely well documented that the tribes in the Congo were cannibals. Only the Bantu, the rest are normal.

http://www.heretical.com/cannibal/congo1.html

[Anonymous No.11480996]

>>11480939

[Anonymous No.11481003]

>>11480990
>white explorers say all congo tribes are cannibals
>clearly no bias in account
>child mutilation is okay
Kys

[Anonymous No.11481004]

>>11480996
>things that are in no way contradictory

[Anonymous No.11481015]

>>11481004
Social constructs have no basis in reality.

[Anonymous No.11481018]

>>11481003
First hand accounts are baseless?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfRKpxGROZQ

[Anonymous No.11481023]

>>11481015
Hierarchies are non-existent?

[Anonymous No.11481028]

>>11481015
Social constructs are the result f power relations. They're very real.

[Anonymous No.11481029]

>>11481018
No, but severely exaggerated.
And the link you gave barely had any.

[Anonymous No.11481033]

>>11481018
>>11481029
Here have more examples

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538471/Footage-emerged-cannibal-eating-leg-Muslim-Central-African-Republic.html

[Anonymous No.11481036]

>>11481023
Yes, they are mere figments of the human mind.

[Anonymous No.11481042]

>>11481029
>>11481033
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/29/5-arrested-in-alleged-south-africa-cannibalism-ring-after-man-walks-into-police-station-saying-hes-tired-of-eating-human-flesh/?utm_term=.704b8d9ca24b

https://nypost.com/2017/08/22/hundreds-confess-to-eating-human-flesh-in-south-africa/

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/639786/Cannibals-Human-Flesh-Eating-South-Africa-Ring-Village-300-Estcourt-Zanele-Hlatshwayo-Eat

[Anonymous No.11481046]

>>11481028
Define power.
Define real.

[Anonymous No.11481053]

>>11481033
>>11481042
And now the argumentative shitposting is at the point where links are being posted as arguments, which we all know nobody is going to read. BRB reporting this thread.

[Anonymous No.11481056]

There has always been a dialectic between intervention vs non-intervention. It would be foolish to think it wont swing back again.

Colonialism was awful, but in many cases post-colonialism was worse. Generally the break up of the european empires in the 20thC was followed by genocide and the collapse of whatever primative education and healthcare systems that existed.

However "benevolent" colonialism of the developmentalist state lasted only like 10 years out of all the years of colonialism. The object was always to extract wealth from the colonies.

Independance for the colonies was a ruse to avoid having to pay for their UN mandated upkeep. This is explicitly clear in the likes of the Belgian Congo, which abruply became independant after a few civil rights struggles had been won. Better to just bribe a few illiterate MP's and keep owning the mines.

[Anonymous No.11481059]

Even if European colonialism had turned Africa into a first world nation with the highest standard of living, it would still be unjustifiable because of the simple fact that the forceful imposition of a foreign ideology on a different culture, essentially wiping it out, is morally wrong.

Cultures should be allowed to thrive independently of each other, with no meddling whatsoever. Inspiration and cross-cultural exchange can take place, however.

[Anonymous No.11481103]

The problem with articles like this isbthat they fundamentally misunderstand the situation. Guilt for colonialism, as a number of anons have demonstrated, is not about an assessment of the benefits or ailments wrought by colonialism. Europeans subjected each other to colonialism and imperialism for thousands of years in far worse manners for far longer. Africans did the same to other Africans, Asians to other Asians, and Indians to other Indians.

Rather, reparations for colonialism is a means of looting Western contries and transferring this wealth to the hands of wealthy leaders within the formerly colonized nations. This is allowed to occur because of the existence of the managerial state. In the absence of this, fornerly colonized countries were unable to extract wealth from Western nations through moral strongarming, forcing them to instead utilize the gains from colonialism (access to Western learning and education are gains) in order to establish their own industries independent of Westerners'. China, Japan, and Korea are all examples of formerly colonized countries that have done this (Japan having done it twice).

[Anonymous No.11481105]

>>11480874
>destroy vital infrastructure
But white people built all the infrastructure in the first place.

[Anonymous No.11481107]

>>11481053
He was asking for evidence so I provided it.

[Anonymous No.11481114]

>>11480960
I do, but that wasn't the original argument. The original argument was Individual agency v/s collective guilt. You act like whites today do not benefit from colonialism, and that whites have no collective responsibility for colonialism. Something tells me you aren't willing to extend the same gracious hospitality to other races.

>>11480975
Read history, retard.

>>11480996
Something being a social construct does not mean it isn't real. Stop being an idiot. The nation-state is a social construct, yet you people are crying nonstop for walls and deporting Mexicans. Retard.

>>11481059
The only worthwhile post in this thread.
Keep the fuck away from other cultures and people. That way, everyone is happy. YT stays in Europe and Asia and Africa are spared the horror of colonial rule. Muslims don't invade Europe and Nice, Bataclan and Cologne doesn't happen. Everyone works on what they've been given.

[Anonymous No.11481118]

>>11481114
I do the same for Japan and Arabs with their Colonialism.

[Anonymous No.11481129]

>>11481114
>>11481118
Not the Mention current Chinese African colonialism.

>Keep the fuck away from other cultures and people.
Exactly fuck off back where you came from and leave white countries.

[Anonymous No.11481136]

>>11481114
>Read history, retard.
Nothing in history necessitates westerners giving you sympathy of any sort. If anything, it tells us why we shouldn't, and that's precisely because practically every resident of a formerly colonized land has the desire for revenge.

[Anonymous No.11481149]

>>11481114
>>11481059
you can't escape colonialism. The future of Africa will be decided by western/Arab/Chinese desire for its key resources.

From like 900AD through till The 1870's the predominant African powers were slavers, existing entirally to satisfy an external demand.

Since then its been rubber, or Diamonds, or oil.

[Anonymous No.11481202]

>>11481129
>western nations literally deplete your country of any possible wealth
>genocide your people
>use foreign influence to strongarm you into the role of a sub-colony anytime they can
>yet you're expected to "go back"
nah

[Anonymous No.11481207]

>>11481129
That's not how it works whiteboy. You don't get to pillage Asia for 200 years and switch to isolationism when its convenient for you.
You shouldn't have arrived here in the first place. Then your argument would be sound.
Now, either you pay up or accept brown people in your country.

>>11481136
Nobody wants your sympathy. We're demanding our fair share.

>because practically every resident of a formerly colonized land has the desire for revenge.

lmao how could we not? And if that doesn't make you realise colonialism was evil you're just a retard.

>because practically every resident of a formerly colonized land has the desire for revenge.

Gee I wonder why.

[Anonymous No.11481215]

>Intertering with a culture is morally wrong
Man you guys live in a fucking bubble. Who is there to complain? The generation that will enjoy a greatly increased quality (and length) of life, or the generations after?

Not to mention I find culture to be much more resilient than you give it credit for

[Anonymous No.11481253]

>>11481207
>Gee I wonder why.
I never questioned the validity of your feelings. IT's only that westerners should understand them, and respond i our best interests.

[Anonymous No.11481275]

>>11481059
>it would still be unjustifiable because of the simple fact that the forceful imposition of a foreign ideology on a different culture, essentially wiping it out, is morally wrong.
Positing that it is morally wrong is such a sweeping and ridiculous statement: What if the indigenous culture contains many moral wrongs (ie slavery, human sacrifice, tyranny, etc)? What if the indigenous culture would otherwise die or be conquered by other (indigenous) cultures?

This is also a misrepresentation of what happens: colonialism does not necessitate the destruction of the indigenous culture at all. Adaptations will happen, but this is natural. Genocide may destroy culture, but colonialism does not necessitate genocide (Just like you might believe Marxist thought in application does not necessitate genocide).

[Anonymous No.11481277]

Yeah colonialism was good for white people to fuck over every other civilization

[Anonymous No.11481282]

>>11480010
>it wouldn't be crazy to suggest that, for example, the US slavery benefited blacks and that they should be the ones paying reparations to white people.


Yes it would
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.11481323]

How can anyone defend colonialism with the current state of those nations that were colonized. It may have been an inevitable event of history but that doesn't mean it went well or that it was a "good thing".

[Anonymous No.11481327]

>>11481323
Non-western perspectives are irrelevant to me.

[Anonymous No.11481337]

>>11481327
Mass immigration and refugees is a direct cause from colonization that is affecting the west.

[Anonymous No.11481346]

>>11481327
So are white lives.

[Anonymous No.11481347]

>>11481202
So your a hypocrit yet again.

>>11481207
Yes it does if you peace otherwise we will come back for another 200.

[Anonymous No.11481349]

>>11481282
I think it's more crazy to think that a continent of slaving, violent spear chuckers would, without foreign intervention, manage to get it's shit together and civilize anywhere close to the time that Europe and the rest of the modern world did. And I'm not talking about generations difference in time, I'm talking millennia.

[Anonymous No.11481352]

>>11481337
And the west failed to adequately deal with t. I don't have much sympathy for us. The post war institutionalization of human rights was more or less a suicidal act.

[Anonymous No.11481358]

>>11481327
Plenty of Western countries have been colonized

[Anonymous No.11481360]

>>11481282
Well your no fun, if it is so easy to disprove then do so.

[Anonymous No.11481361]

>>11481352
And therefore colonization has had negative impact on the west

[Anonymous No.11481362]

>>11481323
>current state of those nations that were colonized
you can bring the civilization to the savages, but you can't bring savages to civilization it seems

[Anonymous No.11481368]

>>11481361
that's like saying Socrates has had a negative impact on the west, because his ideas happened in the world we live in today

[Anonymous No.11481372]

>>11481349
Foreign intervention and modernizing them is necessary but colonization added a ton of unnecessary problems to the mix. Like imagine if you could get them to get their shit together but at the same time not think of white people as like an oppressing class or whatever.

[Anonymous No.11481373]

>>11481349
Yeah, I’m sure extractive institutions established by European colonizers helped Africans a lot

Also
>what is economic convergence

[Anonymous No.11481379]

>>11481362
Is English your first language?

[Anonymous No.11481381]

>>11481361
It was more of the failure to adequately handle decolonization, and the negative impact of moral developments that occurred after WWII.
>>11481358
They still haven't developed the anti-western attitudes other peoples did.
>>11481346
I agree with you on that one. The individual life is means nothing.

[Anonymous No.11481386]

>>11481368
Are you implying Socrates isn't guilty?

[Anonymous No.11481389]

>>11481373
Look at Rhodesia. It was a true modern multicultural state that was equal representation of whites and blacks torn by commies funded by the SU and China. No we have Zimbabwe. Which is failing due to its anti-white racist polices.

[Anonymous No.11481394]

>>11481389
t. learned everything they know about Rhodesia from /pol/

[Anonymous No.11481395]

>>11479650
What if they don't want to be colonized?

[Anonymous No.11481407]

>>11481381
>The individual life is means nothing.
Individual achievements shape history.
For example the life of Alexander the Great brought Hellenistic culture to places where it would never have been spread. Individual lives are what drive the collective and certain individuals matter more than others.

>>11481394
Care to counter?

[Anonymous No.11481415]

>>11481394
nothing he said was incorrect though

[Anonymous No.11481417]

Colonialism is inherently oppressive. Why would you openly support oppression?

[Anonymous No.11481419]

>>11481389
Zimbabwe now has a higher life expectancy than had it anytime during the Rhodesia era

[Anonymous No.11481431]

>>11481419
Yeah your full of shit

https://www.google.com/search?q=zimbabwe+life+expectancy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

[Anonymous No.11481433]

>Replies: 122
>Posters: 33

[Anonymous No.11481439]

Everyone was already under some kind of imperialism when western colonialism started.

[Anonymous No.11481443]

>>11481433
So people aren't allowed debate?

[Anonymous No.11481449]

>>11481443
Are you an American?

[Anonymous No.11481453]

>>11481431
Your own link proves that Zimbabwe now has a higher life expectancy than it had anytime during the Rhodesia era

[Anonymous No.11481454]

>>11481449
Yes, and what is your point?

[Anonymous No.11481460]

>>11481415
If you have a /pol/tier knowledge of the subject. At the very least read wikipedia

[Anonymous No.11481464]

>>11481453
Which is also due to technology, all nations experience an increase only Zimbabwe fucked up so bad for a decrease to 43.

[Anonymous No.11481470]

>>11481419
And a much higher education rates with black people since under Rhodesia they repressed them from education.

[Anonymous No.11481476]

>>11481464
Zimbabwe's failure is directly caused by the failures of Rhodesia.

[Anonymous No.11481482]

>>11481443
Yes, I’m depriving you of your right to free speech guaranteed by the Sacred American Constitution™. I hereby proclaim that you are not allowed to debate anything without my permission.

[Anonymous No.11481484]

>>11481059
>Cultures should be allowed to thrive independently of each other, with no meddling whatsoever. Inspiration and cross-cultural exchange can take place, however.
Which is something that has never ever happened. Culture has a profound effect on how a people handle their struggle for economic gains and upkeep which naturally leads to them struggling for dominance among each other and whenever there is a surplus it's quickly negated by the growing population restarting conflict. China was ruled by Manchus, India, Persia by mongols. Africans had too many oppressors to count.

[Anonymous No.11481492]

>>11481417
What does it really mean to be "oppressed."

[Anonymous No.11481494]

>>11481482
You sound jealous.

[Anonymous No.11481501]

>>11481476
No it seems to strongly collerate with him seizing white farmlands and giving to his cronies with no concept on how to farm.

[Anonymous No.11481502]

>>11481494
Yes, I’m very jealous of how superior you are to me

[Anonymous No.11481512]

>>11481501
Rhodesia kept blacks under educated and refused to teach them to farm to keep them oppressed.

[Anonymous No.11481521]

>>11481512
Give one example of a highly successful black farm anywhere.

[Anonymous No.11481529]

>>11481521
Irrelevant. Stop moving goalposts and admit you were wrong.

[Anonymous No.11481534]

>>11481521
Google “successful black farm”

[Anonymous No.11481547]

black people or niggers, as i like to call them, are savages

[Anonymous No.11481551]

>>11481529
How was I wrong? Taking Whites farms caused stravation.

[Anonymous No.11481557]

>>11479681
Not an argument

[Anonymous No.11481558]

What an absolute boomer article.

[Anonymous No.11481566]

>>11481551
They took white farms because they were being kept oppressed. Freedom is better than slavery.

[Anonymous No.11481570]

>>11481547
Objectively false

[Anonymous No.11481577]

>>11479650

It's silly to make such broad generalisations about colonialism, when it had such enormous variation, even within the same empire at the same time. There were very different reasons for colonisation, ranging from resources acquisition to security concerns about other colonial powers to people on the ground simply making unilateral decisions to annex territory without backing from their capital. You can't even say that British colonialism in New Zealand was similar to that of India or South Africa even in any given year of the late 19th century. So I am skeptical about broad based critiques from both anti-colonialism and the view of that article.

[Anonymous No.11481580]

>Itt /lit/ gets butt demolished by a scholarly article that refutes their delicate sensibilities and feelings as the neo-Marxist dog shit that they are
Muh moral wrongs

[Anonymous No.11481584]

>>11481566
Nice now white Farmers are oppressing their government

[Anonymous No.11481599]

>>11479868
>>11480292
https://www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/englishliterature/

>You will explore all aspects of literature in English, benefiting from our expertise in a wide range of areas, including American, Irish and postcolonial literatures, critical theory, creative writing, and the relationship between literature and other arts, media and science.

[Anonymous No.11481607]

>>11479650
Colonial projects were never started with the intent of being "beneficial", even if that was their justification (White Man's Burden), rather it was for the economic resources and geo-politically advantageous position that colonies were started. And it took many years of deadly, strict reign in places like India and Hong Kong for the native citizens, which were often treated as second class citizens in their own lands, to being to reap the benefits from a western-styled government. And again, we can see the damage of anti-colonial projects as the destructive shift from one rule to another; statistically, we see great improvement in post-colonial states than their previous forms under colonial rule.
If the author understands "accepting colonial inheritance" to mean "adopting the nation-state form", then yes, colonialism had a positive affect only after being reclaimed by anti-colonial movements.
All in all, I find it pretty hard to defend colonialism from a moral standpoint. It's no surprise to me that the article got pulled.

[Anonymous No.11481644]

>>11481607
t. dilletante psued who didn't read the OP, much less the article, much less any of the posts itt

[Anonymous No.11481658]

>>11481644
t. dilletante psued who didn't read the OP, much less the article, much less any of the posts itt

[Anonymous No.11481673]

I wouldn't bother arguing with these leftists. We all know that colonization made the countries much richer and better off than before hand. But thats not the point, you're arguing with people that have a completely different morality, you'll never convince them of anything. If you have in your morality a want to preserve your culture and ethnicity, then any acts in the past against other races are inconsequential. Europeans are the only racial group that don't understand this, and feel perpetual guilt for following this natural morality, all other races follow this morality to an extend and feel no guilt about it. Realize that there is no diplomacy between people who are aware of this and the only way at this point to recover our dying culture and race is through violent revolution and upheaval. That, or accetp the fate of the world and shift your morality into that of a hedonistic consumer in a post-culture multiracial society, you may have to suppress your natural feelings, but at least you and your family made it.

[Anonymous No.11481684]

>>11481673
>>11481658
>>11481644
>>11481607
>>11481599
>>11481584
>>11481580
>>11481577
>>11481566
>>11481557
>>11481551
>>11481547
>>11481534
>>11481529
>>11481521
>>11481512
>>11481502
>>11481501
>>11481494
>>11481492
>>11481484
>>11481482
>>11481476
>>11481470
>>11481464
>>11481460
>>11481454
>>11481453
>>11481449
>>11481443
I thought /lit/ was supposed to be high iq

[Anonymous No.11481692]

>>11481580
Ill give you one (you) out of pity

[Anonymous No.11481695]

>>11479659
Fpwp

[Anonymous No.11481701]

>>11481566
>>11481529
>>11481534
Also since we are talking about colonialism. Currently 2014-present could be considered Chinese Colonialism as most nations get massive investments and have exclusive resource deals with China. Thus 2014-Present statistics are representative of Chinese Colonial Investment.

>>11481684
We are, just because you are so narrow minded to alternative view points is not our fault.

[Anonymous No.11481704]

>>11481684
/lit/ is a board for underachieving males in their early 20s who spend more time on the internet than reading books. Why on Earth would you think that an average poster here has a high IQ?

[Anonymous No.11481708]

>>11481673
Exactly

[Anonymous No.11481715]

>>11481684
my iq is huge. You are fake news.

[Anonymous No.11481718]

>>11481701
But anon only white colonialism is bad.

[Anonymous No.11481730]

>>11481704
I have read many books. 10% of it is actual information, 90% is fluff. They are meant to be for entertainment to flush out view points, but said view points can be explained relatively briefly.

[Anonymous No.11481748]

>>11480698
>Mind your own business and we'll mind ours.
Nothing in the world I could want more, but for some reason you come by the millions here, even though all colonialism we do to you is sending money.

>>11480759
We are already financing you.
This should be more then enough.

[Anonymous No.11481761]

>>11481748
>reason you come by the millions here

That’s because most countries which have suffered from colonization still haven’t fully recovered from the damage done by extractive institutions established by colonizers.

[Anonymous No.11481762]

>>11481748
low iq brainlet get off this board.

[Anonymous No.11481773]

Are there people on this board who unironically believe that colonization was motivated by the desire to help colonized people?

[Anonymous No.11481777]

>>11481761
Its almost like East Asian success stories don't exist.

[Anonymous No.11481783]

>>11481773
Some of it yes, some of it no.

[Anonymous No.11481795]

>>11481777
It’s almost like East Asian countries became successful after they were decolonized

It’s almost like you try to justify European colonialism not because you genuinely care about people who were colonized, but because you want to prove that whypipo dindu nuffin.

[Anonymous No.11481805]

>>11481042
These are all anecdotes. If it was the norm to eat human flesh in the congo/africa, we would know about it.

[Anonymous No.11481814]

>>11481795
Before Colonialism the Chinese had practically no infrastructure or industry when the Europeans left they had state of the art infrastructure of which the they further developed off of. If such nations were so great before hand how come couldn't they prevent a nation half way across the world from dominating?

>>11481805
What is information suppression? If you don't think the west is full of propaganda then you are naive.

[Anonymous No.11481815]

>>11481783
This. Nazis were motivated at least in part by a desire to help (white) people. Of course, they were motivated more by a lust for power, but there's never a clear line between the two.

[Anonymous No.11481821]

>>11481805
>>11481814
Not to mention its was due to Colonialism such practices became forbidden.

[Anonymous No.11481826]

>>11481814
"great" isn't the same as "strong."
The west is full of propaganda but that doesn't mean that ordinary africans are cannibals.
That's flat-earth level bullshit.

[Anonymous No.11481831]

>>11481673
this guy gets it

[Anonymous No.11481833]

>>11479650
This abstract reads like it was written by some overzealous undergrad. Guaranteed to be a shit article

[Anonymous No.11481834]

>>11481826
It was common practice before Colonialism.
http://www.heretical.com/cannibal/congo1.html

[Anonymous No.11481836]

>>11481814
>If such nations were so great before hand how come couldn't they prevent a nation half way across the world from dominating?

If Greeks were so great, how come they couldn’t prevent Turks from colonizing them?

[Anonymous No.11481838]

>>11481761
That is why we are paying you billions in aid, what more do you want?

>>11481795
Why did East Asian countries recover and not African ones?
I was in Malaysia some time ago and it was quite a pleasant place, even cleaner trains then here.

>but because you want to prove that whypipo dindu nuffin.
I find that a quite strange remark, are we talking morality, or facts?

[Anonymous No.11481844]

>>11481673
Winced

[Anonymous No.11481851]

>>11481836
Simple the Ottoman empire was ahead at the time and thus had dominance. Once anti-intellectual aspects of Islam creep in they lost dominance. Greece is not exactly a beacon of innovation or invention like it was in ancient times either.

[Anonymous No.11481855]

>>11481834
This link again?
That's just a bunch of biased anecdotes.

[Anonymous No.11481859]

>>11481838
African countries are recovering though (see pic related). It takes longer for them to recover because European colonization was more brutal there than in Asia.

[Anonymous No.11481860]

>>11481855
From first hand accounts of explorers. You seem to be quite racist against whites.

[Anonymous No.11481865]

>>11481859
>1995
Its Europe's fault from 1930s to 50s

[Anonymous No.11481879]

>>11481859
Don't you realize that they would not even be able to recover to anything without colonization, they would still be living in tribal society.

[Anonymous No.11481888]

>>11481859
>African countries are recovering though
Obviously not as fast as other colonies, do you want me to dig up the statistics for Malaysia?

>It takes longer for them to recover because European colonization was more brutal there than in Asia.
Evidence?
Why would the Europeans treat them differently?
Also economic growth seemsp quite irrelevant, most nation's are growing economically and 2% growth is what Germany had just in 2016, this isn't recovery, this is is falling behind.

You also didn't answer my question.

[Anonymous No.11481893]

>>11481860
I am white.
There are only 5 FH accounts on the page. None of them are detailed, and all of them were Europeans; the captain and missionary specifically had an interest in making africans seem barbaric.
To flesh out your argument you'd need:
-Accounts from other whites, including those who disagree
-Accounts from africans who lived in those areas

[Anonymous No.11481900]

>>11481879
>what is economic convergence

[Anonymous No.11481902]

>>11481859
African nations have been "recovering" mostly with Western aid.

[Anonymous No.11481905]

>>11481893
I also provided modern accounts that prove such practices existed and are native to the land. Thus giving legitimacy to historical accounts.

[Anonymous No.11481912]

>>11481900
>economic convergence
what is average 70 IQ.

[Anonymous No.11481913]

>>11481902
Most empirical evidence shows that Western aid has, if anything, slowed down the recovery

[Anonymous No.11481922]

>>11481913
Oh sweet so we can pull it completely then awesome.

[Anonymous No.11481930]

>>11481912
Heritability, whether low or high, implies nothing about modifiability. The classic example is height, which is strongly heritable (80 to 90 percent), yet the average height of 11-year-old boys in Japan has increased by more than 5 inches in the past 50 years. A similar historical change is occurring for intelligence: Average IQ scores are increasing across birth cohorts, such that Americans experienced an 18-point gain in average IQ from 1948 to 2002. And the most decisive and permanent environmental intervention that an individual can experience, adoption from a poor family into a better-off one, is associated with IQ gains of 12 to 18 points (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289963618_Adoption_and_Cognitive_Development_A_Meta-Analytic_Comparison_of_Adopted_and_Nonadopted_Children%27s_IQ_and_School_Performance).).

[Anonymous No.11481938]

>>11481900
>>what is economic convergence
Apparently not happening, if some countries there aren't even above German or US economic growth.

[Anonymous No.11481940]

>>11481930
There have been studies where Blacks are worse off then whites even adopted into rich white families in the US. Still even after living in America for 100s of years African Americans have an average IQ of 85.

[Anonymous No.11481946]

>>11481913
So, reparations yes/no?

[Anonymous No.11481948]

>>11481900
Are you fucking retarded?

[Anonymous No.11481953]

>>11481930
Mind you even your best case of 88 is near historical mental retardation levels of 85.

[Anonymous No.11481955]

>>11481930
Just because a potential is fulfilled doesn't make them equal. Everybody knows nutrition and upbringing effect intelligence.

[Anonymous No.11481989]

>>11481938
Ethiopia has a much higher economic growth than any Western country

[Anonymous No.11481996]

>>11481946
No to reparations, yes to open borders

[Anonymous No.11482003]

>>11481989
>Ethiopia has a much higher economic growth than any Western country
It notably was also NEVER COLONIZED, only occupied by the Italians for less then two decades.

[Anonymous No.11482004]

>>11481989
They also happen to be Caucasoid.

[Anonymous No.11482011]

>>11482004
Epic meme

[Anonymous No.11482020]

>>11482011
What there is a lot Arab and North Africa Caucasoid blood down there.

[Anonymous No.11482022]

>>11481996
>No to reparations, yes to open borders
What does turning Europe into Africa help the Africans?

In terms of natural resources, I think that many African nations are greatly preferable to something like Germany, so it seems the population of Germany is the only reason people come here, but if the Germans are gone what is the point?

[Anonymous No.11482026]

>>11481996
Oh fuck off.

>>11482022
They don't think that far ahead. They also have wet dreams of dominating white people

[Anonymous No.11482037]

>>11481814
>Before Colonialism the Chinese had practically no infrastructure or industry when the Europeans left they had state of the art infrastructure of which the they further developed off of.
This is blatantly misleading, and quite wrong. Need you be reminded that prior to 1800, China was arguably the most wealthy nation on the planet; if you look at flows of silver and trade, everything was leading into China. This was before the British began to illegally sell opium to the Chinese, ushering in multiple opium wars to force the Chinese to ignore continue allowing this illegal drug trade (and despite British public opinion sharply against the military actions). Real industrialization and investment in China began as part of domestic modernization efforts by Chinese anti-colonialists.

[Anonymous No.11482041]

>>11482037
So basically Colonialism spurred the development of modern China.

[Anonymous No.11482045]

>>11481673
imagine sincerely posting this

[Anonymous No.11482050]

>>11482041
>muh dialectic historicism

[Anonymous No.11482055]

>>11482041
If you mean after nearly 100 years of eroding chinese society and killing millions of people, and only in opposition to these colonial projects, then yes.

[Anonymous No.11482057]

>>11481673
>We all know that colonization made the countries much richer and better off than before hand

not for the natives, lol

Colonialism was a black mark overall.

[Anonymous No.11482062]

>>11482055
The Qing Dynasty were all Manchus not Chinese if anything destroying that dynasty actually liberated the Chinese people as they were an underclass.

[Anonymous No.11482066]

>>11482062
one form of oppression for another

[Anonymous No.11482070]

>>11482062
And ushered in a period of intense civil war that lead to the rise of Chinese communism. How liberating.

[Anonymous No.11482075]

>>11482066
>>11482070
So now your saying Chinese self-determination is wrong? The Communism was from the Soviets funding Mao and the US ignoring the Nationalists afters the war.

[Anonymous No.11482077]

>>11482075
>So now your saying Chinese self-determination is wrong

nope

[Anonymous No.11482092]

>>11482066
>>11482070
>>11482075
Essentially if the West still had imperialist ambitions it would have saved China from Communism.

>>11482077
>one form of oppression for another
The Chinese were under the rule of a foreign ethnic group and then gain self-rule. You bemoaned that as bad. Thus arguing against Chinese self-rule.

[Anonymous No.11482107]

>>11482092
>You bemoaned that as bad

no I didn't. I bemoaned the colonialism that eventually led to budding resentment as bad

[Anonymous No.11482110]

>>11482092
>Essentially if the West still had imperialist ambitions it would have saved China from Communism.

[Anonymous No.11482114]

>>11482092
no, If the west had Imperialist ambitions they would keep them as opium slaves

[Anonymous No.11482123]

>>11479650

LMAO, the madman. I don't share many /pol/ sentiments, but this is disturbing.

>>11479662

Imagine if the author of this peer-reviewed article hadn't been threatened with death for publishing something outside the consensus, and that his thoughts hadn't been censored because of this, and you could engage his points critically and point out exactly how he was wrong in some sort of dialectical, academic manner of civil discussion. Wouldn't that be great?

[Anonymous No.11482132]

>>11482123
>muh chilling effect

oh no D:

[Anonymous No.11482135]

>>11482110
>>11482114

Oh you disagreeing massive US and Western investment to the Kuomintang could have swung the war to their favor?

>>11482107
Yes it is an unfortunate side effect.

[Anonymous No.11482142]

>>11482135
>Oh you disagreeing massive US and Western investment to the Kuomintang could have swung the war to their favor?

no

[Anonymous No.11482163]

>>11482135
>Yes it is an unfortunate side effect.

what are you even saying here? Even if everything sort of worked out in the end it still doesn't excuse how bad it was to begin with, especially because the got out of that hole by reacting against it.

[Anonymous No.11482166]

>>11479959

>It warps the self-perceptions of colonized peoples so that they carry with the permanent psychological scars of having been oppressed.

Throughout generations? What exactly do you mean by "permanent" in that sentence? Do you find it plausible that, say, the Danes and Norwegians of today, are psychologically scarred from being ruled by Glückburg Germans a couple of centuries ago?

[Anonymous No.11482169]

>>11482135
I am saying the whole situation wherein China become fracture as a civilization, dubbed I believe quite rightly as the Century of Humiliation, was a direct result of Western colonialism in China. It wasn't a beneficial project for the Chinese people in any way.
A Kuomintang regime would have been arguably worse for China anyways; the only reason they democratized in Taiwan was because they were such a weak regime they had to give more and more concessions to local leaders to maintain themselves (see Tasang and Hung-Tien, Democratization in Taiwan, Hong Kong University Press 1999).

[Anonymous No.11482186]

>>11482163
>>11482169

Throughout human history there has been trying events on peoples which has pushed them further than if they had no challenge at all. Such lack of motivations have caused weakness in those societies which outsiders exploit. Such exploitation motives the populace to actually progress and stop being exploited. Thus furthering human development and advancement. This concept is true for all of human history.

>>11482169
The Chinese were already an underclass for 200 years by that point they were already broken people.

[Anonymous No.11482190]

>>11482169
>>11482186
If they were weak they would have went the route of South Korea with American Support. Remember South Korea was a Right wing dictatorship in the beginning as well.

[Anonymous No.11482192]

Chinese, or as I like to call them, yellow niggers, are subhuman

[Anonymous No.11482195]

>>11482169
ew you read books? /pol/ tells me all i need to know

[Anonymous No.11482204]

>>11482186
>Throughout human history there has been trying events on peoples which has pushed them further than if they had no challenge at all.
Yes but that doesn't make it desirable

[Anonymous No.11482220]

>>11482204
We would have never made it to space as soon as we did without the motivations of the Cold War.

[Anonymous No.11482224]

>>11482186
History isn't some athletic competition. What are you even talking about anymore? Colonialism and Western Imperialism wasn't good for China; just because they are recovering now doesn't make what happened to them good or "worth it".

[Anonymous No.11482231]

>>11482220
okay

[Anonymous No.11482232]

probably shouldn't invade other countries or regions or polities or whatever, if only because they might someday do the same to you
oh
wait

[Anonymous No.11482238]

>>11482132

Are you being ironic? Due to summer, I haven't spent much time here (the board is shit and I have reading to do) so my sense of irony is rusty. You don't see how this withdrawal is extremely problematic?

[Anonymous No.11482240]

>>11479662
k keep me posted

[Anonymous No.11482246]

>>11482238
>problematic

cringe!

[Anonymous No.11482247]

>>11482224
He believes in Social Darwinism as an absolute, not too uncommon round these parts

[Anonymous No.11482263]

>>11482224
You obviously don't read much history. History has been dominated by human conflicts for dominance. Most of history's most revered figures are conquerors and military leader. Certainly most all of history has been an "athletic competition".

China in the end certainly benefited. It has been historically fragmented people which found unity. Overthrew a foreign ethnic ruling group and is now one of the most important powers of the world.

>>11482247
History seems to prove such concepts as valid.

[Anonymous No.11482272]

>>11482246

Sure is summer.

[Anonymous No.11482274]

>>11482263
seems to, yes.

But that's no reason to bend over and accept it.

[Anonymous No.11482287]

>>11482274
I prefer to accept such concepts and work to rise myself to prominence.

[Anonymous No.11482297]

>>11482263
what was the last history book you read?

[Anonymous No.11482299]

>>11482263
I think it is you who doesn't read much history if you sincerely believe this nonsense. Please read Rescuing History from the Nation by Duara when you get the chance.

[Anonymous No.11482302]

>>11482287
Sure thing Blicero

[Anonymous No.11482309]

>>11482297
The Twelve Caesars

[Anonymous No.11482312]

>>11482309
what was the last book of chinese history you read?

[Anonymous No.11482331]

>>11482302
>Blicero
Just because I have ambition doesn't mean I am evil. If anything I look to gain wealth and reach for the stars.

>>11482312
China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912

[Anonymous No.11482336]

>>11482331
>Just because I have ambition doesn't mean I am evil.
Did I say that?

[Anonymous No.11482342]

>>11482331
what were the direct benefits china received from the 100+ years of foreign intervention/invasion, that were not a consequence of resistance to same intervention/invasion?

[Anonymous No.11482346]

>>11482336
I was assuming you were referring toThomas Pynchon’s Captain Blicero

[Anonymous No.11482358]

>>11482342
My whole argument is those consequences is what pushed China to greatness otherwise it will still be a multitude of fragmented nation states fighting with each other.

[Anonymous No.11482359]

>>11482346
yes, and?

[Anonymous No.11482371]

>>11482359
A sadomasochistic pederast I am not.

[Anonymous No.11482375]

>>11482371
have you even read the book?

[Anonymous No.11482376]

>>11482358
was the late qing dynasty really a fragmentary system of independent, feuding nation states? this is news to me.

[Anonymous No.11482392]

>>11482375
Yes he is quite an immoral character. I actually have morals but I am also a realist.

[Anonymous No.11482409]

>>11482392
so you havent, alright.

[Anonymous No.11482421]

>>11482376
It was basically formed by conquering Manchus. They dominated and humiliated the Chinese and were forced to wear those braids as a reminder of their place in society. The Chinese were not unified but rather slaves in their own country. So no the Qing doesn't really count as "unity"

[Anonymous No.11482424]

>>11482376
>>11482421
In fact most of the great Chinese Dynasties were formed by non Chinese Invaders.

[Anonymous No.11482438]

>>11482421
that wasn't the question.
you said: "those consequences is what pushed China to greatness otherwise it will still be a multitude of fragmented nation states fighting with each other."
suggesting (or declaring, rather) that the political situation the 'colonialists' found was one of 'fragmented nation states fighting each other'
my question was: was that actually the case?
the answer, of course, is no. no it was not.

[Anonymous No.11482446]

>>11482438
No you misunderstood me. I meant if Chinese has had no foreign invaders or influence in history it would be just fragmented nation states fighting each other.

[Anonymous No.11482451]

>>11482123
Do you agree that being threated with death if you don't comply to do a certain thing is wrong?

If you do, then you can see how colonialism is wrong

[Anonymous No.11482455]

>>11482446
based off what?

[Anonymous No.11482469]

>>11482455
Human nature. we will always find find reasons to be divided. Unity comes from outside threats.

[Anonymous No.11482492]

>>11482469
always and forever? How do you know that? And why can't basic nature be overcome with human intelligence? Why is this doomed to repeat eternally?

[Anonymous No.11482498]

>>11482469
but the formation of republic of china was in reaction to the qing dynasty, orchestrated largely by elements within the qing government itself.
likewise, the coming to power of the communist party was the ultimate result of an enormous and devastating civil war, concurrent with invasions and occupations from several other foreign powers, of which both parties took material and strategic advantage of depending on circumstances.

[Anonymous No.11482522]

>>11482492
We die eventually even if an entire generation agrees on world peace which is extremely unlikely. The next generation might not. Corruption will most likely arise and newer generations will be dissatisfied with the status quo. We are not immortal is the simple thing and those below us always wish to be where we are.

>>11482498
There was always some ethnic Chinese administrators and well you need someone who knows how to run a country and those were the only ones who did. See Americans failures in Iraq to understand that concept.

[Anonymous No.11482526]

>>11482522
>The next generation might not
but why?

[Anonymous No.11482533]

>>11482526
One people might gain more resources than others in the time of peace which will bred jealousy. Corruption is the most likely answer. Its possible to have peace if scarcity was not an issue, but even then power can still corrupt.

[Anonymous No.11482544]

>>11482533
not if resources were distributed evenly. And again how does that make colonization of another people okay?

[Anonymous No.11482551]

>>11482533
and who's to say you can't nip corruption in the bud before things get too hairy?

[Anonymous No.11482552]

>>11482522
but the major cause of the internal rebellion against the qing dynasty was its administrative failure. so, if we follow your understanding of things (which is so simplistic as to be borderline retarded), the rebels--which were, according to you, the 'real' administrators--were actually rebelling against their own mismanagement. silly han!
but anyway, you don't seem to be following what i'm getting at. you argue that external threats are what bring unity to nations, and that this is specifically what happened, historically, in china, toward the formation of the (now) republic of china. but the major events of modern chinese history, and more specifically the the formation of the last two chinese republics, were the products of civil war. given that, what remains of your theory?

[Anonymous No.11482567]

>>11481913
fucking lmao, you spent so much time calling for payments earlier but now you pull this bullshit. every fucking other colony profited immensely, even egypt and india. america and australia are now first world countries, south africa used to be too before apartheid ended. fucking fix your shitty resentiment fueled hatred of power

[Anonymous No.11482583]

>>11482567
yeah man those native americans own all those casinos and shit looks good

[Anonymous No.11482588]

>>11479650
Colonialism never happened. What people are calling "colonialism" was literally WHITE PEOPLE GIVING NON-WHITES TECHNOLOGY FOR FREE AND RECEIVING NOTHING IN RETURN.

This COMPLETELY fucked over white people while literally DOUBLING the average life expectancy of non-whites. Whites are still paying for this mistake to this day. They should have just left the other races to live in dirt and die of old age at 35.

[Anonymous No.11482589]

>>11482544
I wasn't really answering that since you asked about my presumptions on human divisions. Again we have tried thing called communism and humans seem to fuck it up pretty bad.

>>11482551
All of human history

>>11482552
I though you were looking for a reason why Qing officials were included into the next administration.

To answer how that fits in is that it simply seems to reinforce my point that if not outside threat exist the Chinese would break up into separate states and feud with each other. Nations themselves form to protect from outside threats. Also simple ideas seem to ring the most true. Complex ideas like communism and socialism don't seem to work too well.

[Anonymous No.11482614]

>>11482589
you don't seem to understand
neither the republic of china nor the people's republic of china formed to protect against outside threats. they formed in reaction to events largely internal to the country.

[Anonymous No.11482616]

>>11482589
I didn't mention communism though

>All of human history
and we will never over come it? Also how does this justify colonialism. "We need to invade these folks so they can learn to wash their penis better or perish" doesn't sit any better with me than any other war of aggression

[Anonymous No.11482627]

>>11482451
>t. Didn't even read the first page of the paper

[Anonymous No.11482656]

>>11482627
So what do they just ignore all the bad shit that happened to a lot of indigenous cultures because it all worked out for someone in the end?

[Anonymous No.11482676]

>>11482614
Yes internal disputes always arise in nations, and the reason why regions accept those new regimes is that cannot compete with the outside world. A good example of national unity breaking is the Ukraine. Ethnic Russians in the east did not like the way things were happening in Kiev. They do not perceive Russia as threat hence they left.

>>11482616
>Those Germans over there have more resources than us and are getting more powerful than us. They may overtake us. Hey this piece of land with a couple of tribes has the resources we need. Those tribes don't even know to make even ancient tier technology.

At this point they could have genocided the natives, but didn't. We simply let them live amongst us as we developed their land and gave them educations and religion. Most of those resources went to producing goods which in turn happened to end up back where they started half of the time.

[Anonymous No.11482683]

>>11482676
as we took their land and stripped them of their religion

[Anonymous No.11482709]

>>11482683
Animal-ism as a religion is a little far stretched and Africa is still the most resource rich Continent in the world as well as the largest and most fertile. Hence why China is colonizing them. They were gifted everything and failed to even make a basic society in Africa. They were literal nomads when arrived and now they are actual nation states abet massively dysfunctional ones, but still far better off. Hell most African tribes didn't even farm let alone mine.

[Anonymous No.11482718]

>>11482709
>Animal-ism as a religion is a little far stretched
why?

>Africa is still the most resource rich Continent in the world as well as the largest and most fertile. Hence why China is colonizing them
Or, you know, there's this thing called trade

>They were gifted everything and failed to even make a basic society in Africa.
Don't see what this has to do with anything

>They were literal nomads when arrived and now they are actual nation states abet massively dysfunctional ones, but still far better off. Hell most African tribes didn't even farm let alone mine.
or this

[Anonymous No.11482727]

>>11482718
>Trade
That actually requires them being able to get said resources. They could not. In fact the resources taken from African that natives weren't even aware that they even existed.

[Anonymous No.11482730]

>>11482727
>That actually requires them being able to get said resources
no it doesn't

[Anonymous No.11482740]

>>11482730
So explain to me how the Europeans would trade then.

[Anonymous No.11482744]

>>11482740
they can extract it themselves but they don't have to genocide the people to do it, and if those people don't want them on their land, well

[Anonymous No.11482755]

>>11482744
Sounds like exactly what the Europeans did. Mos those genocides was the Europeans taking side in tribal conflicts as the a tribe pledged loyalty to them. You have to remember those tribes were not unified and took advantage of the Europeans as well.

[Anonymous No.11482765]

>>11482755
well yeah except for all that genociding and religious oppression

[Anonymous No.11482770]

>>11482765
Care to expand upon that? Like specifics?

[Anonymous No.11482781]

>>11482770
why don't you read a history book and miss me with that weak shit?

[Anonymous No.11482784]

>>11482656
Yes.

[Anonymous No.11482811]

>>11482781
Much of which can explained by corruption, but even yourself explained the foundations of African colonialism.

[Anonymous No.11482817]

>>11482676
we are talking about china
more specifically we are talking about the xinhai revolution and the chinese civil war. the causes of these conflicts are subtle, complex, and polyvalent. they were not merely popular referendums by other means for a national defense program.

[Anonymous No.11482827]

>>11482627
>I can't use memes properly and should lurk harder
t. Reddit troll

[Anonymous No.11482832]

>>11482811
do tell :)

[Anonymous No.11482833]

>>11482817
The reason for such internal conflicts are irrelevant to my point. The reason why they stay together is after said conflicts is that have external threats to protect against.

[Anonymous No.11482837]

>>11482832
>>11482744

[Anonymous No.11482846]

>>11482837
beg pardon? What does that have to do with corruption?

[Anonymous No.11482847]

>>11482833
no, you fucking liar, look here:
>>11482358
'those consequences' were not even the consequences that led to the formation of the chinese republic nor the people's republic of china
you fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.11482855]

>>11481368
>implying he didn't

[Anonymous No.11482860]

>>11482847
As explained before this was my point.
>>11482446

[Anonymous No.11482861]

>>11482855
THIS

[Anonymous No.11482871]

>>11482846
Oh I thought you meant your own explanation.

>Corruption
Local governor/company seeks more wealth and power. Pesky natives are on a stockpile of resources. Use provincial forces to move them off said resources. Gain more power and wealth for said action.

[Anonymous No.11482873]

>>11482860
CAN YOU NOT FOLLOW THIS?
THE FORMATIONS OF THE TWO REPUBLICS OF CHINA --I.E. THE UNIFICATION OF THE CHINESE NATION STATE IN IT'S TWO MODERN ITERATIONS--WERE IN REACTION TO FOREIGN INVASION, BUT WERE THE CONSEQUENCE AND ULTIMATE RESULT OF INTERNAL CONFLICTS

[Anonymous No.11482881]

>>11482873
WERE NOT IN REACTION TO FOREIGN INVASION***
FUCKING OBVIOUSLY

[Anonymous No.11482882]

>>11482871
>Pesky natives
alright

[Anonymous No.11482896]

>>11482873
Why did those fragmented states unify to begin with? Also it could be argued the Qing power was eroded and proceeding revolutions are due to loses against the British and the inability prevent constant foreign influence in China.

>>11482882
I was explaining it from a corrupt governer's point of view.

[Anonymous No.11482908]

>>11482896
WHICH FUCKING FRAGMENTED FUCKING STATES ARE YOU FUCKING TALKING ABOUT

[Anonymous No.11482912]

>>11482896
>I was explaining it from a corrupt governer's point of view.
and how does this absolve colonialism when a simple case of corruption as you appear to have framed it can result in the near total genocide of an entire people in the name of resource acquisition?

[Anonymous No.11482954]

>>11482912
It just comes from the simple case of this
>>11482744
It much you can do if you want to trade for said resources. The Bantus weren't much better as the practically genocided their way into existence and dominance before we showed up.

>>11482908
The kingdoms that existed before the Song Dynasty.

[Anonymous No.11482957]

>>11481905
I never denied that there were/are some groups in africa that commit cannibalism.
You've been making the claim that all or most africans are cannibals, and that claim is not supported by your anecdotal evidence.

[Anonymous No.11482961]

>>11482954
>It just comes from the simple case of this
so yeah, colonialism is bad then

>The Bantus weren't much better as the practically genocided their way into existence and dominance before we showed up.
oh nevermind then

[Anonymous No.11482963]

>>11482957
I just said the Bantu people have had a long history of cannibalism.

[Anonymous No.11482964]

>>11482003
It also happens to be one of the poorest countries in the world.

[Anonymous No.11482965]

>>11482954
you mean an era literally a millenium prior to the one we're talking about?

[Anonymous No.11482972]

>>11482965
Yes I was talking very generally as I stated twenty times. That outside pressure forged a unified Chinese state.

[Anonymous No.11482976]

>>11482972
so generally you aren't even talking about anything :)

[Anonymous No.11482978]

>>11482972
you cannot speak in generalities about a region that has an incredible heterogeneous, 8,000 year history.
you daft faggot fuck.

[Anonymous No.11482986]

>>11482978
I wouldn't say heterogeneous as basically the outside conquerors became "Chinese"

[Anonymous No.11482989]

>>11482972
we were talking VERY SPECIFICALLY about the LATE QING DYNASTY (THE PERIOD OF GREATEST EUROPEAN FOREIGN INFLUENCE) into THE MODERN ERA
where is your GENERAL THEORY OF HISTORY applicable in THIS SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS ENTIRE FUCKING TIME YOU WAFFLY CUNT

[Anonymous No.11482995]

>>11482986
shut the fuck up and learn to admit when you're fucking wrong you piece of shit and maybe you'll actually learn something

[Anonymous No.11482996]

>>11482989
Well the Qing dynasty in ability to protect from foreign influence and threats eventually lead to its overthrow.

[Anonymous No.11482997]

>>11482995
except you were wrong because you've been moving the goalposts this whole time

[Anonymous No.11482998]

>>11482963
You seemed to be generalizing to all africans, and were using their alleged cannibalism to justify the conquest of the entire congo.
Children's hands were cut off because the supposedly weren't working hard enough for their white masters. And this was an improvement over cannibalism?

[Anonymous No.11483000]

>>11482995
>>11482997

sorry, disregard my stupidity

[Anonymous No.11483002]

>>11482995
The Qing weren't Chinese
The Ming weren't Chinese
The Mongols weren't Chinese.

[Anonymous No.11483003]

>>11482996
that was one of the causes
one of thousands
it was not even the most significant
and now what about the chinese civil war?
>>11482997
show me where i've moved them? i've been talking about one thing this whole time, you keep bouncing around wherever it suits your stupid purpose

[Anonymous No.11483005]

>>11483002
>>11482986
????
>s-stop moving the g-goalposts y-y-you filthy nigger!

[Anonymous No.11483013]

>>11483005
I was just stating that the Chinese didn't heterogeneous history. It has nothing to the previous conversation.

[Anonymous No.11483025]

>>11483013
do you know what heterogeneous means?
do you know how i was using the term?
clearly you do not
how many dynasties did this region see?
how many different ethnic, religious, political, and yada, and yada, and yada, vied for power and influence, or simply existed alongside each other over the thousands and thousands of years this area has been populated by humans?
if they were not all the same i.e. homogeneous then they were--oh my god, can you even wait for it???
they were heterogeneous. lol.

[Anonymous No.11483031]

>>11483025
oops misread that as homogeneous

[Anonymous No.11483036]

>>11483031
no you didn't
i'm beginning to think this is a pathological problem for you

[Anonymous No.11483045]

>>11480738
and how many slave plantations?

[Anonymous No.11483054]

>>11479650
>how dominant postcolonial theory is in literature departments.

uh, what does that have to do with lit anyway?

[Anonymous No.11483087]

>double your nations grain production
>vaccinate 2.5 million people
>outlaw polygamy, forced marriage and female circumcision
>increase literacy from 13% to 73%
>be murdered by French backed rebels

yeah colonialism is great

[Anonymous No.11483251]

>>11482998
Groups got punished over cannibalism whether the charge was real or not in the Congo.

One group preserved their ancestors relics and kept them in their house for ancestor reverence. Missionaries thought those corpses were the remains of a consumed humans, they sicked the Force Publique on the supposed cannibals and as you may or may not know the Force Publique was brutal at the minimum and straight up Psycho at the peak.

[Anonymous No.11483875]

>>11479650
>WITHDRAWAL NOTICE

>This Viewpoint essay has been withdrawn at the request of the academic journal editor, and in agreement with the author of the essay. Following a number of complaints, Taylor & Francis conducted a thorough investigation into the peer review process on this article. Whilst this clearly demonstrated the essay had undergone double-blind peer review, in line with the journal's editorial policy, the journal editor has subsequently received serious and credible threats of personal violence. These threats are linked to the publication of this essay. As the publisher, we must take this seriously. Taylor & Francis has a strong and supportive duty of care to all our academic editorial teams, and this is why we are withdrawing this essay.

What the fuck!