/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11468848]

Can we ever bring back modernism?

Art and academia were so much better when it was dominated by structuralism and experimentation and aspiration. The world was so much easier to understand when we were still allowed to use a concrete analytic toolset.

I miss Karl Marx and Max Weber and Alban Berg and Mark Rothko. I'm so tired of spaces and bodies and lived experiences and wish things could just start making sense again.

[Anonymous No.11468851]

Jordan Bernt Peterson GO TO BED

[Anonymous No.11468858]

>>11468848
only if we all larp as hard as possible for as long as possible

[Anonymous No.11468863]

Looks like your gonna need...some heavy duty gate keepers.. who care more about integrity and quality than warm tuition fees down their pants

[Anonymous No.11468867]

Truth or lack thereof have no concern for your "feelings" anon -- a structuralist axiom which paradoxically tells anyone wanting society to travel backwards because they're "tired" to go kindly go fuck themselves.

[Anonymous No.11468895]

Yeah you could theoretically have a neo-modernist revival but nobody would participate because damn does modernism suck.
It'd be like reviving the Picaresque - that actually happened, and pure fucking trash was the result.

[Anonymous No.11468897]

>>11468863
>warm tuition fees down their pants
thats all that matters, how many colleges and universities are there? The little guys gotta keep afloat... all that matters is that museums exist with all the actually best works of art in the world, that pink haired students of mom an pop colleges cant have access to curating

[Anonymous No.11468905]

>>11468897
Museums mean nothing, they present culture without comment while universities color the understandings of art interpretation, and contemporarily it's almost always negatively impactful.

[Anonymous No.11468924]

>>11468905
>Museums mean nothing,
FUCK YOU SHITHEAD

[Anonymous No.11468945]

>>11468924
They don't. Shit sitting in a box has no actual measurable cultural value. Museums should function as private venues of education, with public tourism as a side-gig. Many museums already do this but since they're government-funded they don't have any real drive to earn their money.

This is also why repatriation is a fucking terrible idea, objects of private ownership belong to the confirmed private owners and should ideally be kept in a secure and educationally valuable institution rather than shipped back into the hands of whatever retarded 3rd Worlders it was originally pried from.

[Anonymous No.11468953]

>this makes my brain hurty let's just go back
The world was only simple because you thought of it simply; you should rather quit art and academia than try to bring down the intellectual level of every other person because it is too hard for you to understand.

[Anonymous No.11468960]

>>11468848
>Art and academia were so much better when it was dominated by structuralism and experimentation and aspiration.
Which you would know.

[Anonymous No.11468978]

Modernism was the worst time for literature. Romanticism is the cut-off for literature that still made sense and was worth consuming.

[Anonymous No.11469001]

>that 26-year-old boomer that steals his neighbors wi-fi to watch feminists get BTFO on youtube, and to shitpost on a Christian singles message board

[Anonymous No.11469033]

>>11468953
>postmodernism is objectively better because it's more complex
Yet that hypercomplexity achieves nothing, relativism doesn't really point us anywhere. Culture is dying without fundamental guiding axioms to provide structural foundations, and it's causing a mass pathological cognitive dissonance across western society.
Nobody is benefitting from it aside from the people who structure their lives around (who also happen to be extremely prone to mental illness and/or condone external behaviors associated with mental illness).

[Anonymous No.11469063]

>>11469033
Nice romanticized backwards yearning you're betraying. A return to modernism, if that is even possible, would do nothing other than degrade the quality and attentions of our current fields of academia. Despite what memes would lead you to believe, I find the current attentions of fields like anthropology and study of religion to be much more sophisticated and poignant than their modernist progenitors. Compare something like Eliade to the work of Asad or Bruce Lincoln.
>Culture is dying without
The only way for culture to die is the wholesale slaughter of its people.
>and it's causing a mass pathological cognitive dissonance across western society.
Step outside for once of your goddamn life and stop suckling at the teat of clickbait media.
>Nobody is benefitting from it aside from the people who structure their lives around
People benefit from it immensity, and post-modernist research is highly useful in excavating not only our current positions but in identifying new perspectives in previous civilizations.

[Anonymous No.11469080]

>>11469063
>The only way for culture to die is the wholesale slaughter of its people
Wrong
>Step outside for once of your goddamn life and stop suckling at the teat of clickbait media
Not an argument
>People benefit from it immensity
[Citation Needed]
Nice mealy-mouthed ball of fucking nothing there, champ. From a postmodern perspective I suppose that's worth something.
And since you're too dull to follow the thread of logic, I've not proposed that we should regress to modernism, nor do I think such a thing is really possible.

[Anonymous No.11469088]

>>11469080
Don't you have a jordan peterson video to watch?

[Anonymous No.11469337]

>>11468848
shut up cringe

[Anonymous No.11469880]

>>11468848
Maybe you should read Gumbrecht's After 1945 to get some hints on why that was not possible.

[Anonymous No.11470073]

>>11468851
He hates most structuralist theory though, especially Marx and Freud

Not sure if he's really a modernist

[Anonymous No.11470079]

>>11468895
What's better than modernism

You think that the arts and academia of the present is better than what we had in the 1930s-70s?

[Anonymous No.11470098]

>>11468895
>damn does modernism suck
>Joyce, Proust, Woolf all bad writers

[Anonymous No.11470114]

>>11468848
sure just read Faulkner

[Anonymous No.11470127]

>>11470073
>Not really a modernist
>Hates postmodernism
>Wants to bring back concrete monolithic methods

[Anonymous No.11470142]

>>11470073
no he's just a pseud

[Anonymous No.11470154]

There is one way to get back the ease of modernism and escape the agony of partial validity, it's to stop following intellectual pursuits, to stop learning and simply accept simple things like love and friendship.
Leave the endless destruction and rebuilding of methods, theories, and sciences to the best intellectuals of your time, and live your life according to the simple principles that steer the majority instead.

Every day you walk into people who aren't corrupted by theory, they aren't clouded, they don't move between conceptualized systems, unable to look without.

You'll still feel the agony of a soul depleted of learning, but in return you'll be the closest to a truth you'll ever get, and that in itself is the greatest achievement a man can have.

[Anonymous No.11470164]

There is one way to get back the ease of modernism and escape the agony of partial validity, it's to stop following intellectual pursuits, to stop learning and simply accept simple things like love and friendship.
Leave the endless destruction and rebuilding of methods, theories, and sciences to the best intellectuals of your time, and live your life according to the simple principles that steer the majority instead.

Every day you walk into people who aren't corrupted by theory, they aren't clouded, they don't move between conceptualized systems, unable to look without.

You'll still feel the agony of a soul depleted of learning, but in return you'll be the closest to a truth you'll ever get, and that in itself is the greatest achievement a man can have.
The greatest truth to life is that there isn't any, but while sitting down and enjoying a summer night's weather with your loved ones, I assure you that that will be the last thing you think about.

[Anonymous No.11470166]

>>11470154
Nice double-post.

[Anonymous No.11470167]

>>11470166
I accidentally cut off the bottom part

[Anonymous No.11470196]

>>11470073
Peterson is very much part of the Solzhenitsyn inspired post-marxist generation that includes great thinkers such as Furet, Lefort and Foucault, as well as morons like himself and Bernard Henry-Levi.

[Anonymous No.11470216]

>>11468848
romanticism>modernism

[Anonymous No.11470230]

>>11470196
I was about to get mad until you added that JP is a moron.

[Anonymous No.11470235]

>>11470164
>just don't think about it
woah thanks a lot

[Anonymous No.11470249]

>>11470164
Ok but whats the sauce

[Anonymous No.11470255]

>>11470235
Bro people have tried since the dawn of time, you're not going to find a solution because any solution you make will already rot away the moment it comes out of your mouth.

But if you want to try, don't pursue others to find one, try with your own devices because everything so far has failed, you won't find the solution in these works.

[Anonymous No.11470268]

>>11468848
Sounds... chaotic, no?
If only there were some kind of antidote for the chaos... a set of rules perhaps.
Hmmm

[Anonymous No.11470277]

>>11470268
If only there were 12 concrete rules to follow.........really makes one think....hmmmmmmmmm

[Anonymous No.11470281]

>>11470230

[Anonymous No.11470331]

>>11468848
haha what? it never went away
postmodernism was but a flash in a pan conjured by those who were sure the capitulation of the 20th century communist and fascist regimes spelt the end of the whole project
modernity marches on; plenty of mouthpieces without having to resort to peterson or land

[Anonymous No.11470349]

>>11469001
fbi posters please go

[Anonymous No.11470350]

>>11470079
Romanticism

[Anonymous No.11470555]

>>11470331
sure thing doc

[Anonymous No.11470561]

This thread needs more smiles :)

[Anonymous No.11470566]

What the fuck is "modernism"?

[Anonymous No.11470569]

>>11470561
>.png

my bad...

[Anonymous No.11470582]

>>11470566
pre-postmodernism

[Anonymous No.11470584]

>>11470582
>defining something by saying that it came before what came after it
0/10.

[Anonymous No.11470590]

>>11470584
>never heard of the presocratics

[Anonymous No.11470608]

>>11470584
>preraphaelites

[Anonymous No.11470614]

>>11468848
>Can we ever bring back modernism?

We are still within modernity, postmodernism never existed

[Anonymous No.11470620]

>>11470216
Romanticism is the worst thing that has ever happened to art

[Anonymous No.11470624]

[Anonymous No.11470639]

>>11470614
how ironic

[Anonymous No.11470641]

>>11470620
imagine being this dumb

[Anonymous No.11470659]

>>11470641
I bet you seriously think that Wagner was a genius

[Anonymous No.11470706]

>>11470614
That's what makes it so postmodern.

[Anonymous No.11470708]

>>11470659
you mean he isn't???

[Anonymous No.11470726]

>>11470614

[Anonymous No.11470741]

>>11468848
>Can we ever bring back modernism?
You can read Joyce whenever you like, honey.

[Anonymous No.11470770]

Is pynchon a modernist?

[Anonymous No.11470787]

>>11468945
On one hand, I agree with you. Museums have no real inherent value, in that they simply present, rather than educate. On the other hand, you’re clearly attempting to push a capitalist Betsy Devos-esque narrative here, and I hate you for it. While it’s true that private museums may have a greater ability to educate; monopolies are the natural end-goal of capitalism. Normally I don’t give a shit about monopolies. However, when you allow a profit-motivated monopoly on culture and education, you may as well be committing cultural suicide. If you’re the sort of person talking about “retarded 3rd wolders” I’m going to assume you view culture as some sort of higher, more civilized thing. Why then, would you feel comfortable reducing the status of it to that of a common commodity? You’ve seen what’s happened with film, and music. Fallen to deep aesthetic lows because of mass marketing and commercialization. You’d be a fool to say that the same would not eventually become of powerful, private museums. You’ve seen private authors bastardize and edit their stories for the market under immense social pressure. You’ve seen film employ “diverse” casts for the purpose of avoiding accusations of racism. Yet you presume that museums would be immune to similar fates.

[Anonymous No.11470807]

>>11470659
I mean, I think he was talented? His music does feed something in me

[Anonymous No.11470831]

Is pynchon a modernist?

[Anonymous No.11470838]

>>11470624
why would you post this?

[Anonymous No.11470841]

>>11470831
he helped kick off postmodernism, so yes.

[Anonymous No.11470845]

>>11468960
Only rational post ITT.

[Anonymous No.11470848]

>>11470787
not who you replied to but who they replied to, but, there is something comforting about many many great great great works of art being in close proximity, rather than all scattered about the world. And the possibility to view them. That other anon was retarded shmuck, who seemed to completely shrug off the value and beauty and awesomeness of the fact of a tremendous amount of great works of art existing, and being possessed by museums, and that an individual can go observe them and be inspired and enjoy them (without needing to read essays and hearing speeches).. This makes me think that anon is either studying or graduated to be an art critic, in which case they do not even think their job is equal to that of the greater masters of the past, but greater than, fluffing themselves up with pride and motivation that they are worthy of even living. And/or that this person thinks that a naked tranny circle jerk in pigs blood in a room full of shards of glass with a person giving a 10 page dissertation about gender studies and slam poetry is greater than a leonardo da vinci painting, because the art is not what is important, and the individual cant possibly gain anything from just viewing a work of art.

[Anonymous No.11470865]

>>11470164
She's cute, reminds me of this hot chinese chick I know with a fat ass

[Anonymous No.11470874]

>>11470566
Euphemism for Marxism

[Anonymous No.11470883]

Hey was the "fun de siecle" irrationalism that prefigured fascism its own kind of proto postmodernism? Was all about rejecting structure and positivism, not unlike the romantics eighty years prior

[Anonymous No.11470939]

>>11470848
I agree. The concept of a massive, beautiful museum housing basically everything is nice. However, I hope you can recognize the obvious dangers in that. Which is all I really meant to talk about. I’m not comfortable with our entire cultural heritage being under the control of those motivated by profit.

[Anonymous No.11471941]

>>11470073
>structuralist theory though, especially Marx and Freud
uhh...

>>11468978
>realism didn't make sense and wasn't worth consuming

>>11469033
>Culture is dying without fundamental guiding axioms to provide structural foundations
I doubt that you can work with axioms that you know are arbitrary. In the past people did art in fixed ways because they didn't consider questioning those ways, it was simply how things were done. Like the red tinted glasses analogy. We took off our red glasses (though we still don't recognize the blue ones that we are carrying underneath), it would be ridiculous to put them back on and sincerely tell to ourselves that the world really is red-tinted.

>>11470566
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism

[Anonymous No.11472139]

>>11471941
>it would be ridiculous to put them back on and sincerely tell to ourselves that the world really is red-tinted.
Art doesnt exist, then it does after humans create it: all art creation requires tinted shades of glasses

[Anonymous No.11472233]

>>11472139
Well, yeah, that's why I wrote
>though we still don't recognize the blue ones that we are carrying underneath
We still are making art, after all, we still have some glasses and axioms. They're just different from those that were common in the past.

[Anonymous No.11472241]

>>11468848
>Can we ever bring back

[Anonymous No.11472250]

>romanticism
>Fagnerd

[Anonymous No.11472270]

>>11472250
/classical/ really has the most epic memes

[Anonymous No.11472279]

>>11472233
>They're just different from those that were common in the past.
but that doenst mean the ones in the past were wrong or bad, the totality of art contains the totality of tinted glasses, and who is to say good and bad, but the wearer of certain somes

[Anonymous No.11472283]

>>11472270
I like how the firetrucker meme always causes much bigger buttfrustration on /lit/ because so many dorks here are pitiful werthers who wank to schumann and fagnerd overtures.

[Anonymous No.11472312]

>/lit/erature board

So you guys consume art and still can't understand that this is literally the only knowledge mankind has ever developed that has effectively lead us to the purity of truth? You should be smart enough to grasp the fact that Truth, Beauty and the Good are things that you are inherently uncapable of "knowing", but that is palpable to feeling? Why not stick to it?

[Anonymous No.11472320]

>>11472312
Sure, I'll just stick to that when some retard claims Kinkade belongs next to Sargent.

You fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.11472354]

>>11472320
Can you please elaborate? I didn't get your point.

[Anonymous No.11472370]

>>11472279
>but that doenst mean the ones in the past were wrong or bad
Well, I never said that anyway. Just that we can't go back to them.

[Anonymous No.11473018]

>>11472370
>Well, I never said that anyway. Just that we can't go back to them.
why do you say that?
The glasses that made them werent wrong or bad, you say so yourself, so the glasses if worn now are good as new

[Anonymous No.11473043]

>>11472312
>the only way to progress is through reactionism

wow pseud alert

[Anonymous No.11473272]

You guys know this is all pretty much covered by the movie Midnight In Paris right?

[Anonymous No.11473279]

>>11468848
big no
modrernism is shit
stop being a weak bitch that swallows the values and mindsets of men long dead. grow a pair and formulate your own

[Anonymous No.11473289]

>>11470255
>implying there is a need for a "solution"

your modernism is showing. there is no escape from this hell. not thinking about it doesnt mean you are not subject to the endless struggle, it just means youre not fighting back

[Anonymous No.11473344]

>>11472250
>>11472270
>>11472283
Can you explain this please

[Anonymous No.11473365]

>>11473344
come back when you get your GED, kiddo XD

[Anonymous No.11473383]

>>11470164
This sort of already applies. In truth, academia is largely irrelevant. 'Intellectuals' waste their lives on fiction and theory-making, pretending to be insightful and important, whilst the world goes on.

Perhaps new intellectual strains divorced from the trendiness of these past hundreds of years, would be good.

[Anonymous No.11474316]

>>11470614
Exactly, "post-modernism" was only ever hyper-modernism, the acceleration of society has reached a phase where now we are after hyper-modernity but the causes and processes of acceleration are more important than the fact that some academics briefly disappeared up their own arseholes.

[Anonymous No.11474326]

>>11470659
lmao so wagner isn't a genius? I bet you think jazz is the peak of musical aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.11474591]

>>11474316
T.Marxist

[Anonymous No.11474615]

>>11468848
>I miss Karl Marx
Why? He's a large part of the reason why shit's gone so far downhill.

[Anonymous No.11474621]

>>11474615
dae culutural marxism? mom wont let me stay uo past 10 and its KARL THE MARXSS FAULT
like and subscribe

[Anonymous No.11474649]

>>11474326
I detest jazz even more than Wagner

[9 No.11474695]

>>11469063
The global consumer culture you, an upper middle class probably white male, live in survives as a parasite on the culture of virtually all others, from poor whites to blacks to Arabs and everyone else. It is a culture I suppose, but one that should necessarily die

[Anonymous No.11474718]

>>11474649
that's because you're a pseud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M283JFxesic

[Anonymous No.11474728]

>>11474695
Goddamn phoneposting. Not actually a tripfag

[Anonymous No.11474755]

1910-1930 modernism was best period of time in terms of art

[Anonymous No.11475890]

>>11470073
>He hates Freud
>Marx
>Modernism

[Anonymous No.11475896]

>>11475890
Marx and Freud are definitely modernist

[Anonymous No.11475906]

>>11475896
>Marx and Freud are definitely modernist
Nope. They're jewish. They do not fit into these European classifications.

[Anonymous No.11475915]

>>11470620
romanticism is the fusion of mind and heart

[Anonymous No.11475931]

>>11475896
marx is marx
freud is peak modernism
peterson likes freud

[Anonymous No.11476978]

bump

[Anonymous No.11477032]

>>11475931
Capital is a gigantically ambitious work littered with hundreds of literary references - It's definitely modernist

[Anonymous No.11477247]

>>11475906
Why not? What does their jewishness have to do with anything?

[Anonymous No.11477258]

>>11477247
Everything, m8.

[Anonymous No.11477262]

>>11477258
That's not an answer my friend, not here.

[Anonymous No.11477274]

>>11477262
You're on 4chan. That is an answer here because the JQ is something you're just expected to know if you're part of this community.

[Anonymous No.11477377]

>>11477274
No, I'm on /lit/

[Anonymous No.11477384]

>>11477274
Keep on being a victim of The Professionals if you wish

[Anonymous No.11477387]

>>11477377
This is big brained board, anon.

[Anonymous No.11477408]

>>11477387
Yeah, take your own advice :)

[Anonymous No.11477669]

>>11468905
I bet you're saying that without any actual evidence to back it up.

[Anonymous No.11477688]

>>11477669
But Peterson said...

[Anonymous No.11477696]

>>11469080
>>11469033
Why don't you apply that intellectual rigor to your own argument you fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.11477704]

>>11472312
There's no such thing as 'truths'. Only common forms.

[Anonymous No.11478792]

>>11473289
why would you want to fight back anyway if there's no way out of this hell?

[Anonymous No.11479799]

>>11473289
Fighting what? You're full of shit.

[Anonymous No.11479805]

>>11468848
... Mark Rothko is not that modernist