traditionalism discussion

[Anonymous No.11461807]

Original OP here. I'm back from my Ramadan break, decided to give these threads another shot. How have things been in my absence?

Thread for discussing the ideas and books of thinkers associated with the Traditionalist school, sometimes also known as the Perennialist school. Including but not limited to:
- Rene Guenon
- Martin Lings
- Seyyed Hossein Nasr
- Frithjof Schuon
- Ananda K. Coomaraswamy
- Julius Evola
- Titus Burckhardt
- Philip Sherrard
- Wolfgang Smith
- Jean Borella
- Marco Pallis etc
Also thinkers indirectly affiliated, influenced by, or similar to Traditionalism:
- Henry Corbin
- William Chittick
- Mircea Eliade
- Arthur Avalon
- Alain Danielou
- Algis Uzdavinys etc

Here is a short video summary of what Traditionalists believe:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtabTufxao

Here's a documentary on Perennialism:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=135s&v=P_CNg4dpU54

An hour long interview with Julius Evola (sorry about the stupid intermission):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=611s&v=QiCtdi5nCoA

And lastly, a talk by the most eminent Traditionalist around today:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fIjW1z-ZAX8

Here's a short text on the exoteric-esoteric distinction:
http://www.fatuma.net/text/Haqiqa_and_Sharia_in_Islam_by_Rene_Guenon.pdf

Here's an exchange of letters between an Islamic Traditionalist and a Christian critical of traditionalism, specifically debating over the idea of non-dualism (I particularly enjoyed this exchange):
http://www.sacredweb.com/online_articles/sw17_bolton-upton.pdf

Guenon's Books
https://archive.org/details/reneguenon


Any posters contributing other resources for learning about traditionalism, especially oc, or resources for learning about the various world traditions are appreciated.

[Anonymous No.11461821]

For a basic intro to Islam from a traditionalist standpoint (more of a conceptual overview than a practical one):
>"Islam and the Destiny of Man" by Charles Le Gai Eaton (pic related)
>"Islam: Ideals and Reality" by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
Are two great introductions from traditionalists.

Best intro I've read to date:
>Vision of Islam by Sachiko Murata and William Chittick

>Creed of Imam Tahawi (succinct summary of mainstream Sunni belief, or Aqidah)
http://www.afghanicc.com/books/TheCreedofImamTahawi-4thSpecialEdition.pdf

Also check out this book list by Abdal Hakim Murad (aka Tim Winter):
https://splendidpearls.org/2015/03/30/shaykh-abdal-hakim-murads-book-recommendations/

Another resource you might want to look into are online lectures. Some people to look out for on youtube:
- Hamza Yusuf
- Abdal Hakim Murad (Tim Winter)
- Ali Ataie
- Jonathan AC Brown
- Pretty much anyone affiliated with Zaytuna College

Here are some helpful videos:
>documentary narrated by Charles Le Gai Eaton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y13ZibfjWUs

>documentary on al Ghazali
https://vimeo.com/76920869

>Foundations of Islam Series by Hamza Yusuf
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7DDC6E4A27E031CC
>Understanding Islam Series by Abdal Hakim Murad
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL85C4200AAB2EDAFB

>Random lectures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60JboffOhaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no5RCHRbknk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi1EwbQHTVg&t=1154s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VUwBvJF9vY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD5hNos1eJM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZlEtV0rDPA

[Anonymous No.11461830]

Copy pasting some posts that people found helpful on advaita. Thanks again to the advaita poster:

Adi Shankara's Prasthanatrayi commentaries (his most important works)

>Commentary on 8 of the Muhkya Upanishads part 1
https://archive.org/details/EightUpanishadsWithSankarabhashyamSwamiGambhiranandaVol11989

>Commentary on 8 of the Muhkya Upanishads part 2
https://archive.org/details/EightUpanishadsWithSankarabhashyamSwamiGambhiranandaVol21966

>Brahma Sutra Bhasya (commentary) of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/details/BrahmaSutraSankaraBhashyaEngVMApte1960

>The Bhagavad-Gita with commentary of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/details/Bhagavad-Gita.with.the.Commentary.of.Sri.Shankaracharya


Adi Shankaras non-commentary Prakarana Granthas (philosophical treatises)

>Atma Bodha (Self-knowledge)
http://www.lovebliss.eu/Download/Atma%20Bodha.pdf

>Upadesasahasri (A Thousand Teachings)
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Sri_Shankaracharya-Upadeshasahasri%20-%20Swami%20Jagadananda%20%281949%29%20[Sanskrit-English].pdf

>Aparokshanubhuti (Direct experience)
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.216548

>Vivekachudamani (Crest Jewel of Discrimination)
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/18/items/Vivekacudamani/Vivekacudamani.pdf


Non-Adi Shankara Advaita texts

>Voga Vasistha
https://archive.org/details/VasisthasYoga

>The Ashtavakra Gita
https://realization.org/p/ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita.html

>The Ribhu Gita
https://archive.org/stream/RibhuGitaRamaMoorthyH./Ribhu%20Gita%20%20Rama%20Moorthy%20H.%20#page/n1/mode/2up

>Avadhuta Gita
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Song-of-the-Avadhut-by-Dattatreya.pdf

>Advaita Bodha Deepika (The lamp of non-deal knowledge)
https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Advaita-Bodha-Deepika.pdf

>Drg-Drsya-Viveka (An inquiry into the Nature of the 'Seer' and the 'Seen')
https://vivekananda.net/PDFBooks/Others/DrgDrsyaViveka1931.pdf

>The Tripura Rahasya (Mystery Beyond the Trinity)
https://www.beezone.com/Ramana/tripura%20rahasya.pdf


Ashtavakra Gita for the TLDR, Adi Shankara's commentaries + Yoga Vasistha can be considered core texts, Shankara's non-commentary works and the other non-Shankara texts complement the core ones

[Anonymous No.11461838]

>>11461830
>Of the works you've listed, where does one begin?

Read the Ashtavakra Gita for a quick TLDR. After that either read the Yoga Vasistha or read through the core texts of Advaita (Shankara's Prasthanatrayi commentaries, roughly 2,000 pages). After you read one of those read the other. The prasthanatrayi texts that Shankara comments on are earlier than the Yoga Vasistha but the Yoga Vasistha may slightly pre-date Adi Shankara. Reading both Vasistha and his commentaries would round out your understanding exceptionally well. After that really any order.

There are two high quality abbreviations translation of Vasistha, both by the same guy, my other link has the longer one. The original Sanskrit has roughly the same # of verses as the bible and the only full English translation was awful so I'd not recommend it.


>How would you contrast traditional metaphysics in the West with Advaita Vedanta? As for initiation

A. Coomaraswamy wrote an excellent article on that subject titled 'Vedanta and Western Tradition'. I couldn't do it more justice than him.

http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=The_Vedanta_and_Western_Tradition_by_Ananda_Coomaraswamy.pdf

[Anonymous No.11461852]

If anyone would like to make detailed posts with helpful links and explanations of other religious traditions for me to include in future threads, feel free to do so, all your efforts are appreciated. Trad threads are effortposter friendly.

[Anonymous No.11461892]

Guenon chart

[Anonymous No.11461912]

Evola reccs

[Anonymous No.11461930]

counter-tradition chart

[Anonymous No.11462017]

>>11461830
For Vivekacudamani, I highly recommend you get the one with Chandrashekhara Bharati commentary. Chandrashekhara was the 34th jagadguru of Sringeri Sharada Peetham, the southern Vedanta monastery founded by Adi Shankara, and the line of succession of the jagadgurus can be traced all the way back to Shankara himself. I believe his commentary on it is the most authoritative.

[Anonymous No.11462032]

Does anyone know where I can find Seyyed Hossein Nasr's PhD thesis on Hegel?

[Anonymous No.11462037]

posting some pictures of Guenon's personal library

1/5

[Anonymous No.11462038]

>>11462032
hahahaha what? he did his PhD on hegel? he's a fucking brainlet when it comes to non-traditionalist philosophy, i bet it's hilarious

seconding this

[Anonymous No.11462039]

>>11462032
I didn't know I needed this but now I do. Honestly I think there should be an academic search general for hard to find papers, thesis works, and dissertations.

[Anonymous No.11462047]

>>11462032
Have you checked JSTOR?

>>11462037
2/5

[Anonymous No.11462053]

>>11462047
3/5

[Anonymous No.11462058]

>>11461807
>I'm back from my Ramadan break
Stopped reading there. Traditionalistcucks are even cringier than Christlarpers.
Anyway fuck off with shit unless you are talking about single works this belongs on /his/ philosophy brainlets need to stop polluting this board.

[Anonymous No.11462061]

>>11462053
4/5

[Anonymous No.11462068]

>>11462061
5/5
>>11462058
>leave the board
that's an interesting suggestion, but I will have to decline

[Anonymous No.11462069]

>>11462058
>philosophy

This is a cult for Islamaboo LARPers, not philosophy.

[Anonymous No.11462081]

>ficki ficki! come here underage girl! come get naked with the old sheikh!

Daily reminder that Schuon, one of the leading figures of Traditionalism and personal teacher of many of its current leaders, ran a sex cult where he fondled the naked little children and fucked the wives of the cult members.

[Anonymous No.11462086]

>>11462068
it's not a suggestion, tbis thread does not belong here. read the board rules moron.

[Anonymous No.11462091]

>>11462081
I haven't seen any evidence that the whole "vertical wives" thing involved actual sex, not that this makes it any less weird. It was probably just some weird ritual crap.

[Anonymous No.11462104]

>>11462091
He just got naked with little kids, that's all. No actual sex was recorded, so it's okay.

[Anonymous No.11462105]

>>11462091
>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction)

[Anonymous No.11462110]

>>11462105
for
>>11462086

[Anonymous No.11462121]

the amount of hostility these threads generate is mind boggling

[Anonymous No.11462188]

I've been reading "Sea Without a Shore" by pic related (right). He actually spends some of the later chapters trying to refute "perennialism"/traditionalism, and while I don't find his arguments in that regard convincing, I would still highly recommend it as a primer on tasawwuf. Nuh Ha Mim Keller is basically the Muslim Seraphim Rose.

Here's the story of his conversion:
http://seekershub.org/blog/2018/02/becoming-muslim-shaykh-nuh-keller/

[Anonymous No.11462196]

[Anonymous No.11462205]

OP, are you a western convert to Islam? I know you posted some stuff about traditionalism and Islam but can you talk a bit about your own experience.

[Anonymous No.11462261]

>>11462205
Sure, but only briefly:
>Raised without much religion
>Dad passes away towards the end of high school
>start looking into various traditions
>imbibe to much "hyperrationalist" type philosophy
>it backfires on me and I forget religion for a while
>join the military, foreign deployment
>spend a lot of the intervening years studying mainly western philosophy
>finish military service and I still don't feel like I've found my answers
>discover Guenon somehow
>completely rocks my world view
>discover Seraphim Rose and get really interested in Orthodox Christianity
>going to Church regularly and studying church fathers
>priest asks me if I'm ready to be catechuman
>realize something about this feels wrong, and I don't really believe in Christianity
>start looking elsewhere
>everywhere but Islam
>don't want to study Islam because le inbred mudshit maymays, despite the fact that I know most trads were muslim
>finally say what the heck and pick up a quran
>it speaks directly to my heart
>not ready for this, try to ignore Islam and make it go away
>intermittently study Islam while moving towards other things, continue going to Vedanta Society (Ramakrishna)
>eventually the pull towards Islam becomes irresistable
>my own feet carry me to the mosque against my will
>take shahahda
>haven't looked back since

[Anonymous No.11462281]

>>11462261
What do you get from Islam that you didn't get from Vedanta?

[Anonymous No.11462284]

>>11462261
>Vedanta Society (Ramakrishna)
The Neo-Vedanta movements originating from Vivekananda are pozzed. Even Papa Guenon said so.

[Anonymous No.11462294]

>>11462281
You're actually framing it incorrectly. It's not that I don't get from Vedanta what I get from Islam. It's that what Vedanta has to offer is given to me through Islam. As paradoxical as it sounds, it feels like Islam has allowed me to be more Christian and more Hindu (the two traditions I relate to the most besides Islam) then ever. Islam actualizes for me what I found contained in those traditions potentially.

[Anonymous No.11462305]

>>11462284
I agree. I wan't a fan of Vivekananda, I was there for Ramakrishna (who Guenon held in high regard, by the way). I still consider Ramakrishna a saint of the highest order.

[Anonymous No.11462313]

>>11462294
>Islam actualizes for me what I found contained in those traditions potentially.
Can you expand on that? This is interesting.

[Anonymous No.11462325]

It just goes back to the idea of the universality of symbolism and metaphysics. You have to find a tradition that raises symbols to a living language for you, as opposed to a mere academic interest. Seraphim Rose found that in Orthodoxy, for example.

[Anonymous No.11462331]

>>11462325
for
>>11462313

[Anonymous No.11462355]

I never understood how traditionalists square the contradictions between the major religions. What specific standards do you apply to avoid cherry picking what is considered tradition and what is a corruption of tradition?

[Anonymous No.11462367]

>>11462305
With that said, where can I find English translations of Shankara's commentary on the Prasthanatrayi that aren't pozzed by "Swamis" of the Ramakrishna Movement? Or is learning Sanskrit the only way to not fill my head up with counter-tradition bullshit?

[Anonymous No.11462393]

>>11462355
The only standard perennialists have is that feel
I wouldn't conflate traditionalism with heretic beliefs.

[Anonymous No.11462398]

>>11462355
In theory, the only person who could really say without absolute certainty what is authentic and what is not is someone who has already effected the Supreme Realization. The rest of us have to just use our best judgement. Some signs to look for:
>non human origin
>continuous chain of trasmission
>regularity of methods and ideas (more or less)
>examples of sages and "realized masters"
>etc

There are many outward trappings one could look for.

As for the contradictions between religions: the diversity of phenomena in the natural world does not disprove the existence of that world, and all these diverse phenomena trace back to the same source or "creator". The same could be said of the various traditions, a diversity of religious phenomena with a singular source. The unity is on the metaphysical level, not the phenomenal level.

[Anonymous No.11462411]

>>11462398
The biggest one I struggle with is reincarnation or one life. There are traditions with mystical trappings that advocate for both, and supporting one or the other changes drastically how you live your life.

[Anonymous No.11462431]

>>11462411
According to the Bhagavad Gita, one should strive to fulfill one's duties while renouncing all fruit and dedicating one's actions to the Supreme Being, and the Gita advocates a belief in reincarnation. Religions that reject reincarnation also tell us to dedicate ourselves to this Supreme Reality and to strive in this world. What's the difference you are referring to exactly?

[Anonymous No.11462483]

>>11462367
the Ramakrishna Movement is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. They are what Guenon calls an "ass bearing relics" in Perspectives on Initiation, meaning the quality of the members of the organization may have deteriorated somewhat, but they still maintain the integrity of their traditional filiation, and thus constitute a tradition with real spiritual efficacy. Reject the ass, accept the relics it has to offer. This guy has some very good lectures, and he's with the Ramakrishna Society, for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLuqAiCLPvQ&t=1199s

[Anonymous No.11462518]

>>11461821
>For a basic intro to Islam from a traditionalist standpoint (more of a conceptual overview than a practical one):
>>"Islam and the Destiny of Man" by Charles Le Gai Eaton (pic related)
>>"Islam: Ideals and Reality" by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
>Are two great introductions from traditionalists.
>Best intro I've read to date:
>>Vision of Islam by Sachiko Murata and William Chittick
So if I read one of these, it should be Vision of Islam? Or are one of the others better for a traditionalist view?

[Anonymous No.11462538]

>>11462518
Yeah, go for Vision of Islam. You can find the audio of a course Hamza Yusuf did on it online if you google it. It's a truly comprehensive work, with regard to the ideas of the Islamic tradition (more so than practices), and it goes surprisingly into depth for an introductory book. It has a "traditionalist" feel to it as well, which is undoubtedly due to the close association of its authors with Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

[Anonymous No.11462577]

>>11462518
Also, if you specifically want to read about tasawwuf, check out
>>11462188

That book will also give you some sense of balance in your understanding of Islam, since it would admittedly be somewhat intellectually dishonest and biased to restrict yourself to only traditionalist perspectives.

[Anonymous No.11462592]

>>11462483
>"ass bearing relics" in Perspectives on Initiation
Can you give me the page he mentions it?

[Anonymous No.11462609]

>>11462592
In the edition I have it's page 53

[Anonymous No.11462633]

>>11462592
By the way, in case the wording in my post was confusing I'm not saying he specifically calls the Ramakrishna Society an "ass bearing relics", but that his idea of an "ass bearing relics" applies to them. I've just reread my post and the wording seems to suggest the former.

[Anonymous No.11462677]

>>11461830
I'm looking for decent Vedanta/Dharma works that I can find on Amazon. Any suggestions?

[Anonymous No.11462711]

>Be normal muslim
>Go on 4chan lit
>See traditionalist threads
>look into it, discover geunon, al murad, lings.
>unironically my faith strengthens by reading more

who wouldve imagine 4chan of all places would bring me closer to god?

[Anonymous No.11462723]

>>11462711
masha'Allah

all guidance is from Allah

[Anonymous No.11462738]

>>11462677

Venkatesanada's two-part translation of the Yoga Vasistha is found on Amazon and is very good. Not the shorter version called the concise one but the one simply called Vasistha's Yoga which is 780 pages. That will give you enough to mull over and read for a while.

Shankara's works are worth reading but starting right away with his commentaries is like diving into the deep end. Vasistha will greatly prepare/adjust you for further studies and is a 10/10 text on its own anyways.

[Anonymous No.11462756]

>>11462711
That's interesting. Where did you grow up?

[Anonymous No.11462816]

>>11462633
I still don't buy it. In Theosophy: A History of a Pseudo-Religion, Guenon states Vivekananda distorted Vedanta to make it palatable to the West. Also, Vivekananda is a Freemason.

[Anonymous No.11462829]

>>11462816
Guenon was also a Freemason, and the fact that he distorted the teachings of Vedanta in no way impairs the efficacy of the spiritual transmission of an authentic intitiatic lineage.

[Anonymous No.11462846]

>>11462829
>>11462816
Anyway, let me just add that I am no way trying to "shill" for the Vedanta Society. If you find them so objectionable then ignore them, I guess. I think they aren't THAT bad, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.11462860]

>>11462367

As the other anon noted everyone associated with the Ramakrishna movement is not pozzed. It's basically mostly Vivekananda and a few close associates of his. All of the Shankara commentaries by Mahadevananda and Gambirananda etc are very high quality and accurate. The only thing neo-Vedanta about the Ramakrishna order is in how they portray Ramakrishna and downplay the non-vedanta aspects of him but they are actually the #1 best source for English translations of Advaita texts, these are people that devote their entire lives to Advaita, furthermore the people involved in translating Sankara's writings (like the two mentioned above) are not the ones you find making neo-Vedanta statements in their writings.

They could have no possible reason to want to subtly change Shankara's writings, as they are already pure Advaita.

[Anonymous No.11462872]

>>11461807
Why the fuck is it that all of the Traditionalists and Perennialists are either Muslims or like Islam so much? It really triggers me, because I do not see how Islam can be the true religion. Are they all just LARPing or something? I do not get it.

[Anonymous No.11462879]

>>11462860
It's pretty easy to spot the "Vivekenandists" and Neo-Vedantists in their Society because like 90% of then are white guys lol, at least in my experience.

[Anonymous No.11462884]

>>11462872
The Qur’an is like a bride.
Although you pull the veil away from her face,
she does not show herself to you.
When you investigate the Qur’an,
but receive no joy or mystical unveiling,
it is because your pulling at the veil
has caused you to be rejected.
The Qur’an has deceived you
and shown itself as ugly.

It says,
“I am not a beautiful bride.”
It is able to show itself in any form it desires.
But if you stop pulling at its veil and seek its good pleasure;
if you water its field, serve it from afar
and strive in that which pleases it,
then it will show you its face
without any need for you to draw aside its veil.
(Rumi)

[Anonymous No.11462894]

>>11462872
Because it's the most accessible tradition to the West that's the least degenerate, and finding a teacher of an Eastern tradition who will initiate you into it is damn near impossible to come by.

[Anonymous No.11462914]

>>11462872
Sufism is babby's first mysticism. It's the first "serious" mysticism people usually encounter, especially in college. It also has a flair of the exotic ("Those wise orientals never departed from the logos, so unlike us, we disenchanted 'moderns'!") allows you to visibly LARP. Traditionalists are hardcore LARPer types. They have the LARPer gene or some shit. So they are naturally drawn to something that a) is the first thing they encounter (easily accessible), b) stands out, c) allows YOU to stand out by adhering to it.

There are essentially three kinds of perennialists: hardcore Evola types, who aren't really perennialists; Hinduist or vaguely irreligious Guenonians who read it as philosophy; and hardcore LARPing Islamfags who would have become Sufis one way or another just so they could roleplay as a sage with higher purpose.

The latter group also has the most actual crazies in it, often because dhikr is usually a destructive cult behaviour that causes psychological ego death while pretending to be a mystical experience.

[Anonymous No.11462916]

>>11462884
That's too vague that you can say this about any other book. It says nothing.

[Anonymous No.11462931]

>>11462894
Oh, so it is just an issue of which tradition is easier to LARP into?

[Anonymous No.11462936]

>>11462872
What pushes you away from islam, for me it was muslims for a long time.

But could care to explain why it couldnt be true? Its certainly more coherent than christianity.

[Anonymous No.11462951]

>>11462738
Excellent, thank you!

[Anonymous No.11463049]

So whose gonna give a rundown on this guys metaphysics?
I read Intro to Hindu and the majority of it was like:
Metaphysics is immutable and universal.
You can't logic into it, it comes as an apprehension of intuitive insight, or somthing.

What is his metaphysics?
How do I apprehend it, if you can't logic into it?
What practices should I do to experience it? Meditation? Read the Gita?

[Anonymous No.11463091]

>>11463049
You need to read the texts. Advaitabro has a good copypasta for them that he might post.

[Anonymous No.11463120]

Is Catholicism reconcilable at all with Traditionalism? I’ve read for example Evola saying why protestantism is highly not, but haven’t seen the case for Catholics.

[Anonymous No.11463124]

>>11462914
>>11462931
Easy there, you forgot to tip your fedora!

[Anonymous No.11463132]

>>11463120
Jonathan Bowden said evola identified as a pagan catholic, you can watch bowden's lecture on him in youtube

[Anonymous No.11463133]

>>11461807
Aye yo Guenon abandoned his race’s religion for Mudslime faith, Evola’s life ended in a wheelchair, the Churches are filled with pedophiles and the greatest religious works all came from mystics who were persecuted either while living or posthumously by the Churches. Also no proof of a theistic god and a pantheist god is near identical to the atheist’s ontology. You have nothing

[Anonymous No.11463135]

>>11463091
Right, sure, but why can no one give a basic rundown of the metaphysics. It's always, read the upanishads bro...

[Anonymous No.11463145]

>>11463133
Spooked
Seek liberation brother

[Anonymous No.11463150]

>>11461807
>>11461830

OP here is an update to the Advaita list copypasta in case you make any more threads. The ones in the current list only includes 8 when Shankara wrote 10 Upanishad commentaries, here are the other two.

>Brihadaranyaka Upanishad commentary of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/stream/Brihadaranyaka.Upanishad.Shankara.Bhashya.by.Swami.Madhavananda

>Chandogya Upanishad commentary of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/stream/Shankara.Bhashya-Chandogya.Upanishad-Ganganath.Jha.1942.English

Also here is another good text to list in the secondary texts part of it (assuming it's still enough to fit in one post)

>The Kaivalya Navaneeta (Cream of Liberation)
http://ramana-maharshi.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/7/2/24723372/kaivalya_navaneeta_-_cream_of_liberation.pdf

[Anonymous No.11463151]

>>11463133
>his race's religion
stop there bucko theres no such thing

>no proof of thesitic god
Creation is proof alone, your existence.

[Anonymous No.11463152]

kinda off topic here but I don't want to clutter up the board with a shitty thread. Why is someone who studies metaphysics called a metaphysician rather than a metaphysicist?

[Anonymous No.11463157]

>>11463133
lol Christianity is not the religion of the white race.

[Anonymous No.11463168]

>>11463152
Cause you're studying the body of god
Really tho, probably no real reason other than convention

[Anonymous No.11463169]

>>11463132
Will check it out, thank you.

[Anonymous No.11463175]

>>11463157
He might be a asatru larper?
Guys a racist

[Anonymous No.11463178]

>>11463145
Im not your brother, and believing in God is being spooked
>>11463151
Yes there 5 distinct human taxa which can be referred to as subspecies or races. You don’t know what you’re talking about because you read thousands of pages of theology written by pedophiles and schizophrenics instead of biology papers or actual philosophy or history.
>creation
nothing was created, its all existed in some form forever.
>existence
this term has no truth value, there are only processes
>>11463157
I am aware, the pre-Vedic religion and Bog nigger European mammy cultism are the HUWHYTE religion. Its just longfacecel homo was not an Arab and yet he converted to the mudslime blood worshiping Cube cult creed. You have to really question someone’s integrity when they abandon their faith like that. Of course if God wasn’t real then it would make more sense.

Notice how Ebola being in a wheelchair and being rebuked by most tradfags is not dealt with.

[Anonymous No.11463184]

>>11463169
Welcome!
Be advised, as a catholic, both Bowden and Evola are probably best described as racist.
Right wing thought is romantic but can be very corrosive to spirit

[Anonymous No.11463193]

>>11463178
>Notice how Ebola being in a wheelchair and being rebuked by most tradfags is not dealt with.

[Anonymous No.11463195]

>>11463178
I am a literal biologist, not a brainlet zoologist like you. Name the different taxa. You referring to skull shapes?

Youre the schizophrenic my friend, not us.

[Anonymous No.11463197]

>>11463178
Racism is being spooked.

The religious idea is how existence came to be, it cannot be proven either way. The best argument is likely for agnosticism.

Chan culture has ducked your brain.

[Anonymous No.11463203]

>>11463195
Thank god, help this lost soul. He wont agree with you in this thread, but if you give him some postracialist ideas, he may come around one day.

[Anonymous No.11463208]

>>11463184
>racist
>corrosive to spirit
Mindless hatred for other races is spiritually dangerous, I agree but I don't think either of those two were hateful people(haven't read much Bowden tho) they both seemed to realise that 1. that races are real categories, not social constructs. 2. there is no equality at all and that there is a lack of equality among races as much as any other category and 3. People should look out for their own race and their own people - not to the complete disregard for other races but just in the same way as you look out for and care for your own family before other families.

If you consider those ideas corrosive to spirit from the Christian perspective please tell me why that is.

[Anonymous No.11463239]

>>11463208
Evola literally tried to get in with Nazi command.

Bowden...didn't say anything overtly racist, but his new right gave lectures on Evola and Devi, which is fine in and of itself, I myself like right wing literature for its romanticism, but a rightwing org giving lectures on farright individuals raises eyebrows. He did probably believe western culture was superior and did believe it was rooted in european biology, which would today be considered racist.

Races are not an agreed upon designation, and I would indeed argue they are a 20th century social construct.

I don't see any reason to look out for my race than for my hair color. But I dont believe race is a real designation.

Christianity is about the spirit which I dont believe has a race, any more than spirit has a hair color. Brotherhood of humanity. However, there are many views about christianity...

[Anonymous No.11463256]

>>11463049
>You can't logic into it, it comes as an apprehension of intuitive insight, or somthing.
That's the problem. Traditionalists claim that through intuition they are able to discern the common thread of all religions. It is assumed a priori that religions have a common essence, and scripture is reinterpreted to conform with this principle. Any differences are dismissed as deviations. This "creative reinterpretation" gets so bold that Guenon once stated that the idea of reincarnation has nothing to do with genuine Eastern teachings and only arose in the 19th century. Traditionalists believe quite arrogantly that they can view all religions from some transcendental perspective.

[Anonymous No.11463260]

>>11463195
First of all they're called Fst values second of all we can also look at heterozygosity among mammalian species

I'm neither a zoologist nor a biofag, i would never pay for a STEM degree that was not Math or Physics my low conscientiousness friend
>>11463197
No, racism is biological fact. There are 5 human subspecies: congoloids from the niger-congo regions of Africa, cappoids from the SE-S African regions, Caucasoids or Europids from MENA+Eurasia (incl parts of South Asia going all the way into Bangledesh and even into East Asia with the Tarim Basin centric Turkic-Europid peoples), the Australoids who inhabit S Asia, Oceania and may even have intermingled with South Americans via Canoe routes, we do not know; finally the Mongoloids who inhabit the East Asian Steppe, all of the Yangtze and Yellow River valleys and the whole of East Asia's peninsulas stretching from Burma to Vietnam and of course the isles of Japan and parts of Oceania and S Asia as well, with small enclaves and some admixture in Europe and the Middle East, certainly the Turkic substrates found in northern MENA and among populations like the Germans and the Jews.
Religion was made up by a caste of logomantic parasites who were necessary to keep slaves in line, now that power is cybernetic and all might lies in machinic weaponry we can effectively excise the religious and warrior castes completely, they mean nothing.
>>11463203
There are no post-racial ideals. Race is real, just not the way WS believe in it. You will never not be South Asian or Black or Hispanic or Jewish or Mongoloid. If you are not White there is a likelihood you are ugly, unathletic, weak immune system, bad eyesight, high rates of mental disorders and probably also dishonest and horrible impulse control
>>11463208
Christianity teaches all souls live in a collegium under the tutelage of the Holy spirit, they are equal in that they are all worth the same in Heaven, only in Catholicism, which is in many ways a patrician faith (hence extreme loyalty from the noble castes of Europe even to this day), are some souls more worthy (Virgin, Apostles, Disciples, Saints, Martyrs)

Also there is no reason to care even a little about other races. Its not evolutionarily advantageous, the way that the Jews organize is perfectly natural and should be encouraged among whites. Chinese operate with the same rules of engagement

[Anonymous No.11463266]

>>11463260
>now that power is cybernetic and all might lies in machinic weaponry we can effectively excise the religious and warrior castes completely, they mean nothing.
u wot m8

[Anonymous No.11463268]

>>11463256
Totally, perennialism cannot be proven, similarly neither can Jungian archytypes. I simply enjoy it as an idea. I just wish someone could give me a simple rundown. I have never seen a straightforward rundown of guenonian metaphysics, ever.

As an aside, soft-traditionalist Huston Smith said the idea was not to find the thread connecting all religions, which will always fail. He said to see the world religions as a local manifestation of the infinite. Which I think is a beautiful idea.

[Anonymous No.11463273]

>>11463266
I want you to leave because this whole site is dying and i'd like to enjoy it before i have to work 60 hours a week until i'm 40 faggot
>>11463268
they've gone over it probably 30 times in the last two years, if you were not retarded, incurious or a newfag/crossboardingfag you'd have seen the threads, the advaita shitskin has meticulously gone over Guenon and his influences, haha Shankara who is the only person you should ever read on Advaita unless low iq.

[Anonymous No.11463282]

>>11463260
Sure there are variations among human beings based on geography, but the 5 categories you've listed are arbitrary. There was originally 3 races in Europe (nordic, alpine, Mediterranean) which no one uses anymore. Irish were considered negros at one point.

Your designations are human constructs and it's no question that tests on human groups created in western society are going to favor western values. Plus the wealth in western society gives "whites" an advantage. So your tests on racial value are hardly scientific.

[Anonymous No.11463289]

>>11463260
>he has no formal training in science
>he expects to be taken seriously

Hahahahahaha, youre spending too much time on 4chan

[Anonymous No.11463290]

>>11463049
The long answer is read his books that are more explicitly about metaphysics (man and his becoming, symbolism of the cross, multiple states of the being, the great triad, symbols of sacred science etc), in combination with primary texts so you are able to experience and verify what he says as true instead of just taking his word for it.

The short answer is roughly that its some sort of non-dualistic understanding/awareness. He writes that Advaita was the most pure and direct exposition of it but also that all other traditional doctrines teach it either more or less openly/exoterically or in a closed/esoteric sense according to the needs and tendencies of the culture and peoples where that religion is followed. This sounds illogical at first since we all know Islam is pure monotheism and Buddhism says there is no soul etc and so on but when you actually study all these things in depth you realize there is truth to that claim.

Guenon did not mean to say that Advaita is the 100% truth and that everything else is just a way of teaching it but rather that they all point towards a common truth which goes beyond all names and forms, including Advaita. He regarded Vishitadvaita (which holds that there is a real plurality of beings different from each other within the all-encompassing unity of god) as equally true. Buddhism at first seems contradictory but the actual state of one who has become enlightened according to Buddhism is extremely similar to the Vedantic Jivanmukti, there is also the fact that later strains of Buddhism came up with concepts that were in practice even more closer to Hinduism, (for example Dzogchen regards all (manifested) phenomena as magical apparitions spontaneously arising in a way that transcends causality) and there is also the point that what Buddha actually taught is way closer to Hinduism than most realize, Anatta does not refer to Atma see Coomaraswamy's book Hinduism and Buddhism. Perhaps the single most common element uniting Abrahamic mysticism is a state of seeing/experiencing everything as god, or everything as god's creation/presence in an overwhelming, oceanic and sublime sense, which in practice leads to a similar state of mind as Advaita (e.g. Guenon thought Bohme was secretly initiated by someone because his ideas were so close to eastern metaphysics), this is found in Jewish, Christian and Islamic mysticism/esoterism. Daoism teaches spontaneously abiding in the Dao which in practice leads to a similar state when done seriously. The parallels are endless.

[Anonymous No.11463297]

>>11463273
You are insuferable. I'd wish misery on you if it weren't redundant.

[Anonymous No.11463305]

>>11463290
So a monism of being that in human life means living a traditional lifestyle of asceticism and austerity.

This is why I Iove the devil.

Metaphysical dualism baby

[Anonymous No.11463306]

>>11463297
dont argue with him, we can all see he needs help

[Anonymous No.11463323]

>>11463239
>Evola literally tried to get in with Nazi command.
Did he? I thought he has Pagan Imperialism published in Germany and the SS read and didn't trust him. I didn't know there was any contact between them.

>Races are not an agreed upon designation, and I would indeed argue they are a 20th century social construct.
>But I dont believe race is a real designation.
The bible disagreed with you there in Acts 17:26
"From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live"
God appoints specific borders and specific times for specific nations (ethnic groups) to live in. If God acknowledges races as being distinct then I have no reason not to.

> don't see any reason to look out for my race than for my hair color.
If you had an extended family member you had never met would you care about them anymore than a random person from the other side of the world? I certainly would and I think that the ethnic group is like an extended family, obviously not as closely tied but still significant.

>Christianity is about the spirit ...
Partially agreed

>...which I dont believe has a race, any more than spirit has a hair color
Disagree. If we consider that race is real (God does) then race is something innate and then part of ourselves. One of the core ideas of Christianity is the Resurrection. Not some bodiless spirits floating around in heaven, but rather the real physical, metaphysical, and spiritual regeneration and reconciliation to God through Christ's death and resurrection. Note that there is a physical resurrection. The bodies that we currently have are the very same bodies we will have after the resurrection but they will be transfigured and perfected. That means that there will be white people and black people and asians that all form the mystical body of Christ. Just as "there is no male nor female in Christ", doesn't dissolve the real physical and spiritual distinction and of man and woman so "there is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ" doesn't dissolve the real physical and spiritual distinction between the races. We all have the same opportunity and calling for salvation and all Christians regardless of race will participate in the divine nature of God equally, but that doesn't translate to perfect equality in any other way, least of all in regards to profane politics and race relations

[Anonymous No.11463326]

>>11463297
This is good, you feel discomfort and disgust towards your fellow man and expect the universe to punish them for you
>>11463305
t. dumb
>>11463306
help from who? therapy is associated with negative mental health outcomes and pharmakotherapy is as effective as a placebo on a 5 year time scale. Genetic mutational load prevents any kind of mental health "management" from meaning anything, if you're fucked you will simply go mad with time. But lucky me i just have autism and OCD not schizophrenia as you religious faithful have alleged. Also note the lack of good humor too! How characteristic

[Anonymous No.11463331]

>>11463323
Christtards should all be gassed and burned alive, repulsive moralizing of scientific facts. There is no God.

[Anonymous No.11463336]

>>11463331

[Anonymous No.11463343]

>>11463273
>the advaita shitskin has meticulously gone over Guenon and his influences
>tfw if he said he was white you would call him a faggot larper and if was Indian you would call him a poo in loo shitskin

It sounds like you need to take a break from the internet, try attending a meditation retreat or something. The S.N. Goenka group offers 100% free ones all around the world.

[Anonymous No.11463361]

>>11463323
I'm a liberal postmodernist luciferian, so idk.

Distant cousins mean less to me than individuals I love. So, even if what say is right, humans arent logical. Some people care about family, some don't. Doesn't mean there is a metaphysical reality.

If you wanna be a traditionalist racialist catholic, there's no extra charge. However, it seems the conclusion these views is inherently abhorrent.

[Anonymous No.11463363]

>>11463343
people have been reporting sexual abuse and neurological problems from those things, i'd rather not since i know how to meditate and also know how useless it is
>>11463336
dead meme that made christfags look extremely stupid, there is nothing that will save you from the nonexistence of your God and the fallibility of human reason, which was used to construct the plague vector of a holy text you all suckle at (though infrequently, because none of you read your bibles daily at all, I actually have one on my nightstand i open semi-frequently, its leatherbound and has a nice red strip of fabric affixed as a bookmark, smells good too; my favorite parts are the one's where the Jews get to massacre whole tribes and where God tortures his son)

[Anonymous No.11463371]

>>11463326
>This is good, you feel discomfort and disgust towards your fellow man and expect the universe to punish them for you

Weren't you saying nonwhites are retarded above?

[Anonymous No.11463374]

>>11463371
lol at you

[Anonymous No.11463379]

>>11463361
>liberal postmodernist luciferian
This is bait, right? ...Right?

[Anonymous No.11463381]

>>11463363
This negativity will transform you eventually. It wont always be this painful. We will welcome you when you are ready

The volatile will be fixed

[Anonymous No.11463382]

>>11463363
Low effort bullshit get low effort responses senpai.

[Anonymous No.11463383]

>>11463379
/lit/ has gotten really awful, the off-chance that there are sociopathanons hanging around to feed on the 100 iq redditors is interesting though. My god this board is so bad, the Evolanon retard threads from 6 months ago, were significantly more elaborate and involved. Far cry from 2017 which was still garbage. What a sight

[Anonymous No.11463385]

>>11463256
>This "creative reinterpretation" gets so bold that Guenon once stated that the idea of reincarnation has nothing to do with genuine Eastern teachings and only arose in the 19th century.

WRONG. All he did was (correctly) point out that Vedanta (and Buddhism) teaches that absolutely 0% of the contingent aspects of the being pass from one life to another. Reincarnation implies a copy of the current person in the next life which is not what the eastern doctrines teach and is indeed a misunderstanding of them. The only thing in Vedanta that is regarded as passing from one life to the next is the unchanging and unconditioned non-personal Atma which has nothing to do with one's personality. Shankara himself makes this point in his writings and only used the term transmigratory existence and never reincarnation.

There is a dedicated group of 3-4 midwit posters that I recognize including you who have read enough to think you can angrily make long posts criticizing this stuff but there are always basic mistakes in your post that makes the whole thing foolish and self-defeating.

[Anonymous No.11463391]

>>11463379
I mean, its the only logical conclusion

NeoNeoPlatonist perhaps

[Anonymous No.11463393]

>>11463383
Maybe all the Evolanons are pursuing higher things than rambling on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.11463397]

>>11463393
>Evolanons
>pursuing higher things

[Anonymous No.11463399]

>>11463385
You are a midwit anon, both you and the shitskin are retarded and have contributed nothing to any other discussions on this board. You're parasites
>>11463382
Responding to petulance with scorn is low effort?
>>11463381
This is not at all how biological systems work, your genetics past 18 account for .6-.8 of all trait expression. Your environment is subject to stochastic processes, there is almost nothing going on besides the epiphenomenal self-model which occasionally uses self-reference to steer behavior but its hardly effective and genetics are still the cause of its expression so it is without a will, but does think in a way i suppose. Your entire theory of behavior is asinine and you are making moral proclamations over and over, all of which are ugly and toothless. What negativity? You're ugly minds on my board ruining it with your fucking stupid posts. If they had kept up the level of discussion from last year I'd hold my nose and ignore them, but this is one of a few threads where there are persistent anons that I can castigate and they will feel the need to reflect regardless if they are disgusted with studies on human polytypy or calling into question the existence of noesis.

None of us say senpai, dead meme. How many of you even browsed here before the election?

[Anonymous No.11463410]

>>11463399
I really unironically want to know your stats. Age, weight, education, romantic situation, job, living situation, ect.

[Anonymous No.11463414]

>>11463410
No. One piece of information: I am lean and exercise at least 60 minutes, usually 90 a day

[Anonymous No.11463417]

>>11463414
Favorite author and film?

[Anonymous No.11463459]

Well this thread turned to shit.

Getting back to business. Does anyone have any advice to reading the Quran for the first time? Good translations? Any commentaries that are worth reading?

[Anonymous No.11463461]

>>11463459
Are you implying the white race isnt superior?!

Jk, see attached, might help.

[Anonymous No.11463465]

>>11463459
Why do you hate biology?

Jk, heres another

[Anonymous No.11463469]

>>11463465

[Anonymous No.11463478]

>>11463461
>>11463469
Thanks. Thinking maybe I should start with the easy to read one to get a feel for it then if my interest in Islam continues I can look into the study ones.

[Anonymous No.11463485]

>>11463417
Celine, not the best author that I've read but his style is closest to mine and we agree on much about humanity; if forgive his anti-semitism as its extremely justifiable and the Jews were even more dug in, in Paris than they were in London at the time. For films, Unforgiven, purely for the last two sequences in the film, its not actually the best film I've seen, too intoxicated to judge properly now, but it is my favorite film.
>>11463461
Muslims have extraordinarily high rates of rape and pedophilia in their religious institutes and communities as do Jews
>>11463465
this is you company now

[Anonymous No.11463487]

>>11462936
>What pushes you away from Islam?
Honestly, everything about Islam is repulsive to me, from its extremely simplistic and materialistic conception of heaven that would only appeal to 7th century Arabian men living in the desert and its shallow portrayal of God to its barbaric commands (that most Muslims today ignore) and its mindless rituals.

>But could you care to explain why it could not be true?
There are hundreds of reasons why I think Islam could not be true that it would be hard for me to list all of them, but just look at the death of Muhammad as an example of why he could not have possibly been divinely inspired.

The mainstream Sunni view is that he was poisoned by a Jewish woman who said, "If he is a prophet, he will be informed; but if he is a king, I shall be rid of him" (Tabari Volume 8, page 123, 124). This view is further reinforced when he was close to his death, in which he said, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison" (Bukhari's Hadith 5.713). So what the Jewish woman said was true: he could not have been a true prophet since he was not protected by God. However, this should not have been the case since the Quran itself says it will always protect Muhammad from other people (Al-Ma'idah, verse 67). But interestingly enough, it says in the Quran that if Muhammad made up false sayings about God, he would be punished by having his aorta cut from him (Al-Haqqah, 44-46), which is what Muhammad said to 'Aisha before his death, ironically. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy that he was afraid and paranoid of it happening.

There is also the Shia view where they think that 'Aisha and some of Muhammad's wives and companions were involved in a conspiracy to kill Muhammad, which just shows that Muhammad was an inadequate leader and husband if anything at all.

It is just all tedious and absurd like the rest of the problems in Islam.

[Anonymous No.11463488]

>>11463478
I've not read it. I've go my eye on the Sufi one cause trads love Sufi.

Huston Smith's World Religions has a great section in Islam.

His description of the Quran is awesome, says the text feels like divinity is constrained by the feeble text that is nearly breaking. Which is deliciously postmodern

[Anonymous No.11463496]

itt: contrarian Muslim LARPers who are reacting to the already contrarian position of becoming Christian after a secular upbringing and realising that being an edgy faggot is just not edgy enough

[Anonymous No.11463503]

>>11463496
I study traditionalism just to know how to hate it better

[Anonymous No.11463506]

>>11463503
based

[Anonymous No.11463508]

>>11463496
>people having sincere beliefs in 2018? (((we))) can't have that now can we

[Anonymous No.11463514]

>>11463508
Read some Foucault nerd

[Anonymous No.11463516]

>>11463496
u just summed me up and im not even mad about it

[Anonymous No.11463522]

>>11463516
Top 5 imams, go

[Anonymous No.11463524]

Yall should become Mormons, they're just as terrible

[Anonymous No.11463529]

>>11463487
kek muhamed btfo

[Anonymous No.11463532]

>>11463522
ibn rashad-il-akhnar
abu rakhmad dilgani
ibn si-ikhniffu
rumi
mohammed al-andalus

[Anonymous No.11463538]

Hey, I wanna join counter-trade cause I hate trad.

What's the best way to do it?
I figure having a metaphysical dualism is a start.

[Anonymous No.11463563]

>>11463496
The fact that doing what your ancestors have done for over a millenia makes you an edgy faggot in your view makes you an edgy faggot desu senpai

[Anonymous No.11463586]

>>11463563
What are the metaphysics of Lucifer?

[Anonymous No.11463588]

>>11463586
real schizoposting hours

[Anonymous No.11463698]

How did one thread with such promise turn to such shit?

Also, I wish there were more Marco Pallis available. All I have are Peaks and Lamas as well as a book from Schoun's publishing house.

[Anonymous No.11463733]

>>11463698
Again, if you are new you would not realize there have been hundreds if not thousands of tradfag autist threads which hit the reply limit nearly every single year /lit/ has existed. even in the last 6 months there was a prolific effort by the shitskin advaita autist to explain Guenon and Shankara's views and a dedicated evolanon who studied evola at university (the most remarkable waste of money i've yet to see on this board). I have no idea how this school is interesting, they are basically atheists. Noesis is nothing like the ecstasis of the yogis and christards or most other religious communions with the divine in the primitive cults. They both revile mysticism and use it as a kind of invisible scaffolding to allow their "rational" metaphysics to remain stable so that they can sell this scholar's disease to aristos and bougie pseuds. Its not real religion, nor philosophy, it lacks the mystery of theosophy and is averse to racialism which is why they rebuke biology repeatedly. You should let these things die, and study actual faiths with primary sources and secondary sources from actual hierophants of the respective blood or energy cults, whichever stupid parasitical arrangement you want to indulge in.

[Anonymous No.11463738]

>>11463733
schizoposter strikes again!

[Anonymous No.11463789]

>>11463733
Is the irony completely lost on you that you are currently shitting up the thread?

[Anonymous No.11463878]

>>11463733
I also dont like you

[Anonymous No.11463922]

>>11463733
don’t ever leave, this is fun

[Anonymous No.11464230]

>>11463538
I would consider pic related as the essential starter pack.

Full of ufology, exploring psychic (instead spiritual) and Qliphoth, sorcery.

Almost everything Guénon sort of warned against in Reign of Quantity. Kenneth Grant will be right up your alley.

[Anonymous No.11464253]

Sufi LARPers here are funny, I would love to see them meet a real Muslim from a Salafi or Wahabi sect. They would BTFO these Western Sufi LARPers in no time from the traditions of Islam and show how they are kuffar that should be killed.

[Anonymous No.11464276]

>>11463323
>Did he? I thought he has Pagan Imperialism published in Germany and the SS read and didn't trust him. I didn't know there was any contact between them

Evola worked with the SS Ahnenerbe on research on Freemasonry. As some sort of "expert"

One of Guénon´s letters to Evola survives:
>To come back to Aleister Crowley, what you told me reminds me of the story that turned up in 1931 (I believe at least that was the exact date): while he was in Portugal, he suddenly disappeared. They found his clothes on the border of the sea, something that made them believe he had drowned. But it was only a simulated death, since they were no longer concerned about him and did not try to find out where he had gone. Actually, he went to Berlin to play the role of secret adviser to Hitler who was then at his beginning.
-29 October 1949 Cairo, Egypt

This most probably was just a tale though, considering people like Karl Germer ended up in concentration camp for simply being associates of "high ranking freemason Aleister Crowley" [Crowley was 33rd degree mason]

SS did not really trust anybody with ties to masonry for it was considered "international judeo-masonic conspiracy"

[Anonymous No.11464371]

Derivative of, and inferior to, Neo-Platonism. Stick with the Greeks, not Arabophile psueds.

[Anonymous No.11464453]

>>11462261
>a quran
>>it speaks directly to my heart
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? jeremiah 17:9

pity, next time you flip flop on religion listen to God instead.

[Anonymous No.11464492]

>>11462081
Based

[Anonymous No.11464504]

>>11463487
if his time was up it was up. If god wills you to die then its the perfect time...

I dont see how his death is unprophet like. Jesus in christian tradition was fucking crucified, why didnt he proptect himself?

[Anonymous No.11464506]

>>11462091
http://www.naturesrights.com/knowledge%20power%20book/frithjof_schuon.asp
>On October 11th 1991, Frithjof Schuon, the leader of an international religious order, was indicted on the felony charge of child molestation. committed under "cult pressure and influence". The indictment, passed down by a five member Grand Jury, headed by Lucy Cherbas, stated:
>"that Frithjof Schuon... did perform fondling or touching [on three girls] 15 years of age, 14 years of age and 13 years of age, respectively, with the intent to arouse or satisfy sexual desires of Frithjof Schuon, in violation of I.C. 35-42 43. [And that] said persons were compelled to submit to touching by force or imminent threat of force, to wit: by undue cult influences and cult pressures, in violation of 35-42-4-8."

Never heard of this case before.

[Anonymous No.11464686]

>>11462711
/lit/ and /his/ are like the diamonds in the rough for the whole 4chan experiment. Most boards are utter cancer, but boards such as this can genuinely act as great conduits for the free-flow of historical, philosophical and sociological ideas.

[Anonymous No.11464750]

>>11464686
yeah this is why I still come here, /lit/ has been on the bleeding edge lately, 90% is trash but 10% is luminous

[Anonymous No.11464761]

>>11464686
I completely agree, Ive found many books and became interested in many fields thanks to /his/ and /lit/, although I had to wade through countless racism, IQ and cuckoldry threads.

[Anonymous No.11464774]

>>11463049
Seriously? You can read all the books on subtle metaphysical distinctions all you want, but I genuinely feel the best place to start is just to start exploring your own emotions / psyche.

Maybe get into art, or write some poetry, and just let yourself "feel" the experience that these things bring up. Intuition can be developed, especially if one is willing to be comfortable and delve into one's own mind.

There's a reason why so many of the mystical traditions also have rich traditions of music, art, poetry, literature, etc. Finding the beauty and heart already available to your current senses can be an amazing door for developing higher beauty down the line.

[Anonymous No.11464786]

>>11464686
>/his/
>good
It's worse than reddit.

[Anonymous No.11464800]

>>11464774
the best mystics are staunchly embedded in a tradition they take dogmatically.

>just explore your psyche, feel it out
that's okay when you're on the right path, if you're on the wrong path it could lead to you wearing black robes, drugged up, doing a sodomy ritual.
prelest is a problem, being "spiritual but not religious" is a sign of inauthentic searching.

[Anonymous No.11464827]

>>11464800
The best mystics have also either come from a culture that have very strong living mystic traditions or have otherwise been on the path for most of their lives and have truly found the tradition that works for them the best.

As your average 20something, middle class, western-educated human being, mysticism is going to be one of the most difficult things to assess properly upon immediately encountering it, which is why so many people only end up doing basic mindfulness or praying the rosary or join a yoga group and leave it at that; the rest of it can seem completely inaccessible and even alien.

Remember - the goal of mysticism, no matter which tradition you come from - is ALWAYS spiritual and psychological development, eventually leading to enlightenment. The outward practices you take are merely tools, not ends in themselves. For a westerner, diving straight into a devotional Sufi group or finding an enlightened master straight off the bat may prove too confronting, so there's absolutely no shame in just taking it as you come, so long as the motivation and discipline is true. Of course, finding a community of like-minded people is very important for the aspiring mystic, but at the earliest stages, even something as simple as a poetry recital group may be all that you need to start learning about yourself.

[Anonymous No.11464832]

>>11464800
> being "spiritual but not religious" is a sign of inauthentic searching.
This is becoming more and more ubiquitous. I’ve even heard that from my own family.

[Anonymous No.11464864]

Do I have to get circumcised to become a muslim?

[Anonymous No.11465141]

>>11464371
>tfw all the meaningful arabism is hopeless attempts to flower a neoplatonic islam

Seriously, it is much more intellectually fascinating to study the Platonists and some of their contemporaries (Philo of Alexandria, Philoponus, etc.) This material is so much more essential to understanding esoterism; there's a plethora of scholarship readily available, and unless you're reading Stephen MacKenna, it's not as sentimental and "mystical."

[Anonymous No.11465143]

>>11463733
Holy shit this autism.

[Anonymous No.11465151]

>>11464800
>prelest is a problem, being "spiritual but not religious" is a sign of inauthentic searching.

I'm not saying I disagree but tell me why it is a sign of inauthenticity.

[Anonymous No.11465180]

>>11465151
Because our mentality is so inextricably linked to symbol and practice: religion is a form of organization in the West that serves to preserve the regular transmission and participation in the revelation that has been provided to us. You can never erect a temple without a proper foundation. If that foundation is weak, poorly measured, filthy with a surfeit of mud and decay, how could it balance noble columns, house a holy place, endure the withering of storm and winter?

Likewise, if one does not have the proper teaching, how will he know what is false or decide what is true? How can he cross an ocean without a boat? And whence the boat? How can his seed of faith grow on its own? It cannot: it requires a vital source outside of itself. Likewise, faith requires a real spiritual efficacy, not aesthetic or psychological, but something totally unseen. Religion is the only form we have in the West that preserves that regular transmission of the revelation.

[Anonymous No.11465191]

>>11465151
because without an objective standard to be judged by your ego is liable to deceive you, the progress you make, your goal and your "insights" could all be false constructs. basically solipsism and narcissism, hence why we have so many false gurus and false prophets.
it's a sign youre not willing to submit to the truth.

there's a place for inner searching of course, but thinking you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps is dangerous.

[Anonymous No.11465222]

>>11464504
You do not seem to get the contradiction that exists between the Quran claiming that God will always protect Muhammad from other people and when Muhammad dies by being poisoned by one of these people. There are Muslims who reject that he was poisoned at all simply because of this theological contradiction.

It is also ironic that what the Jewish woman said about him was true and that he died in the same manner that was once specified in the Quran if Muhammad dared to rebel. Was he poisoned by another person? Yes. Did he die of the poison? Yes. So he was not protected by God? Yes. Was the Quran contradicted? Yes. Therefore, what the Jewish woman said came true? Yes, he was not a true prophet.

Also, the differences between the Shia, Sunni, and other sects are just too great to reconcile with each other let alone reconcile them with other traditions like what Traditionalists try to do.

And by the way, I have never claimed to be a Christian, so you don't always have to sperg out about stuff that do not make sense in Christianity. That said, I can see at least that Jesus Christ's crucifixion was divinely ordained and was with purpose and has a place in Christian theology, unlike in the case of Muhammad where Muslims themselves have no idea what is going on.

[Anonymous No.11465453]

>>11462037
>>11462047
>>11462053
>>11462061
>>11462068

Globglogabgalab would be impressed.

[Anonymous No.11465507]

>>11464253
A reminder that many of the most important Islamic theologians, philosophers, thinkers etc were sufi. Wahhabism is a bad joke.

>>11464371
>a derivative of Neoplatonism

Do you mean Traditionalism generally? Because that's completely incorrect, it draws upon and was influenced by all of the religions, Hinduism especially. The key ideas of the Traditionalist school can be found expressed in pre-Neoplatonic (and pre-Plato) Hindu texts. If you meant sufism that's also incorrect. Neoplatonism has played a role in but is just one aspect of Islamic esoterism and mysticism which in addition to Neoplatonism and coming up with it's own ideas has also been influenced by Jewish and Zoroastrianism mysticism, Hermeticism, various other strands of Greek thought, there are even some Islamic thinkers influenced by Hindu teachings, many Indian texts were translated into Persian, Mulla Sadra's teacher was familiar with the Yoga Vasistha etc.

There is also a much larger body of eastern texts that explore the same ideas as neoplatonism and they do so more in depth, especially the Hindu body of texts.

>Stick with the Greeks, not Arabophile psueds.
>t. has only skimmed a few Neoplatonic texts and has not studied it seriously

If your understanding of Neoplatonism was anything beyond surface-level you would know that identification with and holding as important such contingent phenomena as body, culture, nationality etc is the exact opposite of what Neoplatonism teaches. Ascribing value to illusionary concepts such as those only distances you from the One. Plotinus would have rejected you as a student if you had said that in front of him.

>>11465141
>Seriously, it is much more intellectually fascinating to study the Platonists and some of their contemporaries (Philo of Alexandria, Philoponus, etc.)

It is fasctinating, but it's also a completely dead tradition and only partially survives in other ones. The only way to completely understand a doctrine is to be instructed in it by a qualified teacher. There has not been a chain of Neoplatonic teachers passing down the correct understanding of doctrine since it was composed, thus it's dead. Still super interesting and worth studying but to exclusively favor that and shun living traditions with a larger and more in-depth body of texts and teachings is short-sighted silliness.

[Anonymous No.11465574]

>>11464371
This. Sad to say, because I admire many of its basic premises, the root ontology of Traditionalism is a hodgepodge of late 19th century esotericism and hermetic syncretism, post-Kantian Religionswissenschaft and Protestant theology, the Religionsgeschichtliche Schule and its early 20th century offshoots, which also had a post-Kantian epistemology, and a healthy dose of Romantic theory on religion and myth, which has been described by Beiser and other scholars as "neo-Platonist," or as the "archetypal" strand of Kant interpretation. Read any myth-related text of Schelling and you will see Traditionalism. Actually, read Paul Bishop's book _The Archaic_ for a decent discussion of the core concept(s) from which Traditionalism sprang. Its ontology is part of a general response to Kantian rationalism that involved a re-introduction of archetypal (i.e., Platonic) metaphysics with a vaguely emanationist structure -- that is, bootleg neo-Platonism.

This movement was (and remains) deliberately syncretic because when you identify the primary forms or archetypes with a symbolic and mythic structure (as ALL of the traditions I just outlined did), you get a philosophy and history of religion that makes all traditions into particular instantiations of underlying immutable principles (as all of the traditions I just outlined concluded). Just read _The Oriental Renaissance_ by Schwab, which was praised highly by Mircea Eliade, about whom both Guenon and Evola complained in correspondence that he was a Guenonian Traditionalist who wouldn't cop to the fact and that he was getting credit for Guenon's ideas especially. Eliade agreed; so Guenon, Evola, and Eliade agree that Eliade is a reasonably faithful transposition of Guenonian philosophy, and Eliade embraces Schwab's diagnosis of syncretic, Fruhromantik neo-Platonism as the basis of the Traditionalist worldview, e.g., as its syncretic neo-Platonist framework effortlessly reduces and re-appropriates Hinduism, Islam, Platonism, and everything else to be simply an emanation of its own "central, really real" myths and archetypes. That is why "Hinduism looks like neo-Platonism," a favourite line of Traditionalists -- real similarities between the two systems, perhaps owing to some real underlying Indo-European metaphysics, are in fact bowled over and destroyed by Traditionalism's extremely lazy neo-Platonist framework, which has been called "all-reducing." Traditionalists did not save or invent the method of comparative religions -- they killed it, and laminated its corpse.

tldr: Traditionalism is an esoterically-oriented synthesis of scholarly paradigms that go back to Kant, under which paradigms traditional neo-Platonism, and Christian and especially German mysticism were reinterpreted by the early Romantics. And it's a late-comer to the game at that.

One more note on Guenon himself in a follow-up post to this one.

[Anonymous No.11465581]

>>11464253
Sufism is much older than Wahhabism and it is also more widespread among Muslims

[Anonymous No.11465599]

>>11465507
>It is fasctinating, but it's also a completely dead tradition and only partially survives in other ones. The only way to completely understand a doctrine is to be instructed in it by a qualified teacher. There has not been a chain of Neoplatonic teachers passing down the correct understanding of doctrine since it was composed, thus it's dead. Still super interesting and worth studying but to exclusively favor that and shun living traditions with a larger and more in-depth body of texts and teachings is short-sighted silliness.

I remember Guénon talking about adopting a dead system vs a living one. Something on the line that if one would practice Egyptian religion in this day, one would be subject to some sort of "psychic residues" in other words: there is a reason the religion is dead.

[Anonymous No.11465604]

>>11465574
Guenon himself was a brilliant thinker precisely because he could prise apart many of the assumptions of this lumbering all-consuming system, and put it into dialogue with actually vital contemporary philosophy -- but then, so did Evola, and ask yourself what your opinion of Evola is. Actually, Eliade's arch-Guenonian post-war work is him at his most boring and rigid, while his interwar syncretism, before he had read Guenon, is his most interesting.

Some of Guenon's later followers were also genuine mystics with some interesting things to say, though most are badly derivative; and many workaday Traditionalists are simply low-level cultists on the semi-harmless level of Protestant evangelicals, or they're hardcore Islamic fundamentalists.

Coomaraswamy is also relatively tolerable but has the same tendency to neo-Platonise everything. Surendranath Dasgupta, Eliade's teacher in India, is as much the cross-cultural comparative scholar of religion and philosophy, and he told Eliade to his face to cut out the fucking LARPing and stop trying to be a Hindu sheikh pir snake-handling guru yogi. Eliade didn't listen, and when he came back from India he was a Blavatsky rip-off like all the rest.

[Anonymous No.11465605]

>>11464253
> I would love to see them meet a real Muslim from a Salafi or Wahabi sect

you mean the fringe right extremists who were brought to power by the British, pumped up by the USA, and are now seen to "represent" most Muslims for the artificial purposes of dehumanizing them

yeah

[Anonymous No.11465615]

>>11465574
Cool post, bro, but do you have have any more substantive arguments relating to the actual truth value of Guenon's ideas? Your post seems to zero in on points of historical genesis, but what I want to know is whether these ideas are really true in an ultimate sense―which is the only question that really matters. Are there ACTUALLY immutable metaphysical principles, and do they ACTUALLY find their expression in various world traditions, and can one ACTUALLY attain to an identity with them through initiation and participation in a religion? The fact that this or that author from Germany or wherever may have said something similar in this or that obscure book is cool but who cares?

[Anonymous No.11465619]

>>11465604
how is it possible to be a traditionalist and a fundamentalist at the same time

[Anonymous No.11465628]

anyone ever read anything by burckhardt? particularly interested in his book on fes

[Anonymous No.11465633]

>>11465628
I own that book but haven't read it. It's honestly worth it for the pictures alone

[Anonymous No.11465640]

>>11465615
>what I want to know is whether these ideas are really true in an ultimate sense―which is the only question that really matters. Are there ACTUALLY immutable metaphysical principles, and do they ACTUALLY find their expression in various world traditions, and can one ACTUALLY attain to an identity with them through initiation and participation in a religion?

The answer to this is contained here:
>That is why "Hinduism looks like neo-Platonism," a favourite line of Traditionalists -- real similarities between the two systems, perhaps owing to some real underlying Indo-European metaphysics, are in fact bowled over and destroyed by Traditionalism's extremely lazy neo-Platonist framework, which has been called "all-reducing." Traditionalists did not save or invent the method of comparative religions -- they killed it, and laminated its corpse.

Your search for the true principles of reality is admirable and I share that goal. But that search alone doesn't distinguish you from many others who have searched and found things you wouldn't like -- like Spinozist materialists, or nihilistic sceptics.

So it seems that you would probably prefer to distinguish your system on the merits of its actual findings, not just its aims. But my complaint is precisely that there you are corrupting your findings by carrying out unreflective inquiries that over-determine and stereotype the result to the point that it yields no insights, only the preconceptions your method loads it with in the first place. You are not accomplishing any real intellectus archetypus, but essentially playing Leibnizian, rationalist word-games, because you don't understand the difference between the two. And you have produced a self-referential cult in the process.

As I said, maybe there really is an underlying metaphysics or Indo-European "geist." I am reading Emile Benveniste right now, so I'm certainly interested in the possibility. But have you actually found it? Has all the certainty of an Eliade, with his thousands of pages about how "the Cosmic Tree is the true and final Ur-Principle of all Growth!" or his generations of lackeyish followers, actually found anything -- or did Eliade squander fifty years and his intellectual potential rehashing a misguided philosophy because he was roleplaying as a guru?

Learning from the mistakes of failed gurus is part of opening the path to some kind of actual knowledge. You say "being" and think you've intuited "being" metaphysically, like a rationalist. You're far more of a Cartesian than a hermetic, but your philosophy is convinced that it's the only true expression of hermeticism -- a very good way to prevent actual hermeticism from being practiced.

[Anonymous No.11465641]

>>11465507
>It is fasctinating, but it's also a completely dead tradition and only partially survives in other ones. The only way to completely understand a doctrine is to be instructed in it by a qualified teacher. There has not been a chain of Neoplatonic teachers passing down the correct understanding of doctrine since it was composed, thus it's dead. Still super interesting and worth studying but to exclusively favor that and shun living traditions with a larger and more in-depth body of texts and teachings is short-sighted silliness.

But there are "exceptions" to this rule, ie. studying under a spiritual master or a guru.

Guénon talks of this in his "Initiation and spiritual realization"

From the point of view of Islamic tasawwuf, what concerns the Afrad is different, whose master is Al Khidr and is considered outsie of what one might call "jurisdication of the Pole (al-Qutb)

Guénon writes they occur only in circumstances which make normal transmission impossible, for example in the absence of any regularly contituted initiatic organization.

Letter from Guénon March 14, 1937
>Al-Khidr is properly the Master of the Afrad, who are independent of the Qutb and may not even be known by him; it is indeed as you say a matter of something more ´direct´ and in a way outside defined and delimited functions no matter how elevated they may be; and this is why the number of the Afrad is indeterminate. This comparison is sometimes used: a prince, even if the excercises no function, is nonetheless higher in himself than a minister (at least if the minister is not himself a prince, something that can happen but which is not all necessary); in the spiritual order of the Afrad are analoguous to princes and the Aqtab to ministers. This is only a comparison, of course, but all the same it helps somewhat in understanding the relation of the ones to the others

[Anonymous No.11465654]

>>11465574
This is all incorrect, the roots of Traditionalism largely come from Advaita Vedanta, the key tenets of it are all found expressed in Shankara's writings. Guenon was initiated in Advaita as a young man while living in Paris and closely read Shankara's works, what he found was also confirmed from studying other religious traditions where the same ideas are found. There is no evidence for any of your claims, you claim that because a random mishmash of a bunch if European thinkers and movements all hit on some of the same ideas as Traditionalism than that means it all comes from those people which is incorrect. It's almost certain that it stems from Vedanta which Guenon was known to have studied early on. In his studies of it he would have found all he needed to formulate his ideas insead of going through the huge list you laid out.

Furthermore, I recall the exact same type of post being made by that retarded Theosophy shill several months ago when the Trad threads happened before although this time you carefully omitted mention of Blavatsky. You've unmasked yourself lol, the cause of your autistic angry rants throughout this thread stems from your hatred of Guenon because he BTFO Theosophy with his book about it. Out of every anonymous personality on /lit/ the angry theosophy shill (you) is one of the most amusing. Seriously though get help dude, to be this persistent of an angry shill and going to go to such extreme length is indicative of an unhealthy level of resentment.

[Anonymous No.11465661]

>>11465654
watch out dude he'll accuse you of being a dilettante

[Anonymous No.11465687]

>>11465654
Yes, I posted once, weeks ago, about the history of Traditionalism, because I study the history of the philosophy of religion..

I don't recall which thread you mean, but I do recall you obsessively rambling about some Theosophist who is persecuting you in some other thread, yeah. I don't think it was one of your megathreads though. In any case, I actually singled out Blavatsky in the post you're replying to, though, as a fraud. I also praised Guenon a lot. If you don't want to read the posts you're replying to, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. As has been said many times by many people on this board before, you come across as a fucking maniac, honestly.

>>11465619
I was going to reply to you with reading recommendations about Traditionalism acting as a cult within academia, which is a well-known secret among people who study religion (though many of them are just as biased in the other direction, and the truth is somewhere in the middle). But hell, if you can't see it in the behaviour of the other guy I'm replying to, I don't know what to tell you.

(1) He doesn't even read the posts he's replying to, unless they agree with him already; (2) he melts down autistically whenever anyone questions him; (3) he always attacks with the same aggressive, one-sided repetition of his own standpoint. No movement is inherently totalitarian or fundamentalist. You can be very flexible about any weird-ass shit you believe. But Traditionalism deliberately cultivates people like this. It attracts mentally unbalanced dudes who want an Islamic "master" to tell them how to think.

I met a very nice deprogrammed Traditionalist cultist a while ago at an iftar dinner, actually. Her wording, paraphrased: "They're nice people, and I still mostly believe in much of what they say, but they only want you to read books by Traditionalists. It's very limited and limiting."

[Anonymous No.11465696]

>>11465654
>ou've unmasked yourself lol, the cause of your autistic angry rants throughout this thread stems from your hatred of Guenon because he BTFO Theosophy with his book about it. Out of every anonymous personality on /lit/ the angry theosophy shill (you) is one of the most amusing.

Theosophists are still angry about that book. One of the more cringeworthy articles on it:
https://www.theosophical.org/publications/42-publications/quest-magazine/1696-against-blavatsky-rene-guenons-critique-of-theosophy

Like Aleister Crowley put it:
“Theosophist: A person who talks about Yoga, and does no work.” — Liber ABA, Glossary.

[Anonymous No.11465699]

>>11465654
I've tried really hard to imagine who this guy is, what does he do for a living, what does he look like, what motivates him etc? He's extremely persistent. He doesn't sound like the "4chan type" either. How did this tedious academic, or faux-academic, end up on trad threads on a malaysian fly-fishing board?

Any theories?

For the record, theosophy-anthroposophy-academic occultism-hegel-dude, if you're still in the thread we'd love to hear a little about you. Whatever you feel comfortable sharing. You've been around us for a while, we might as well get to know eachother a little better.

[Anonymous No.11465708]

>>11465687
I actualy agree that if you consider yourself a traditionalist you should not belong to "traditionalist groups" or "traditionalist sufi orders" or any of that nonsense. Still, I don't see what any of that has to do with fundamentalism.

[Anonymous No.11465719]

>>11465708
Oh, I guess you're referring to to the people who say "don't read anything but traditionalists". I mean, yeah, that's really dumb. I think the theses of traditionalism are basically sound but forming "traditionalist groups" seems to really defeat the purpose of traditionalism to begin with.

[Anonymous No.11465721]

Everyone ignore the theosophy shill, he is attracted to these threads like a fly to honey driven by his burning desire to avenge Blavatsky, he was a recurring character when OP was posting these threads several months ago. He seems even more angry and unhinged than he did before.

[Anonymous No.11465742]

>>11465699
what if it's literally mark sedgewick lmao

[Anonymous No.11465753]

>>11465699
You may be conflating me and several other people, here. But sure. I have an MA in Philosophy and a PhD in the History of Religions. I had a strong interest in Traditionalism for a while, not least because I have Traditionalist friends, so I studied it and its history. Which was pretty easy, because like I said, it's part of a wider history of several paradigms that have scholarly, esoteric, and scholarly-esoteric expressions.

My main motivations in writing that post (and presumably the post I wrote a while back) have been, first of all, to warn people that Traditionalism does function as a cult at least much of the time; and second, to tell people that getting your head stuck in Traditionalism is a good way to waste 50 years doing rationalist pseudo-logic, which is a waste of a mind and a soul. Traditionalism has become a trap that too many poetntially interesting people fall into. I've seen it firsthand.

As many people have said in the two or three of discussions I've taken part in, you genuinely seem unhinged in how combative you are. Last time around, when enough people turned on you, you started posting nonstop and saying shit like
>Lol rolfl fmfao you actually htink yo u are smart don't you???
like you were smashing your keyboard in insane rage. This is part of why I want to warn people against this.

>>11465708
>>11465719
Yeah, it's mainly the people who turn it into a shitshow. It's a bad combination of well-meaning but credulous people who just want something to believe in, and then narcissistic self-styled gurus who desperately want to be the prestigious gatekeepers of knowledge. Often the latter are well-meaning, too, which makes it even harder to help people when they get sunk in it.

But that's just people in general, honestly. I've only met one or two Theosophists (or sorta-Theosophists?), but they had a similar vibe, that vibe of "if only you'd let me tell you about my Tradition, you'd never need to think for yourself ever again."

>I think the theses of traditionalism are basically sound
I do too in a very over-arching way, for example about spiritual praxis (though I think slavish obedience to a master is fucking weird), but I think much of their metaphysics is simply dogmatic. At that basic ontological/epistemological level of what they think pure metaphysics is, and how they think it is attainable, I think they have some serious and old-fashioned errors. But try discussing that with a guy like OP..

[Anonymous No.11465764]

>>11465719
>>11465708
The "traditionalist groups" stem to the influence of Schuon who practically formed his own religion by almost completely departing from Shari'a and Islamic principles. It's an unfortunate inheirtance that's tarnished the reputation of traditionalism. Those of us still seeking a more authentic path may have to jettison the title "traditionalist" altogether. I just can't understand how people like Lings and Burckhardt could have been so enamored with Schuon. His writing is sloppy, vague, sentimental, and full of pointless jargon (he does have some nice insights from time to time), and as a personality he seems like the typica wannabe cult-leader. I often fee like traditionalism would have fared so much better without his influence. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but he just comes off as super sketchy to me.

[Anonymous No.11465765]

>>11465574
I'm unsure about Eliade, and it may not be entirely unreasonable to accuse Evola of Romanticism, he certainly was open about his reformulation of post-Kantian thought, but I disagree entirely about Rene Guenon. It is very clear he is writing to a neo-Thomist audience in his writings. He only ever mentions German idealists to criticize, he reproaches Evola for being sympathetic to them, and he always reformulates Eastern thought into an Aristotelian form.

I'm also unsure about your use of "neo-Platonism." For one, you seem to use it as a way to handwaive thought away, so your understanding of it is clouded by the outdated scholarship that sees it as another devolution into mysticism and sorcery a la E.R. Dodds et al., mostly confused with caricaturesque Theosophical magic men going into trances and what not.

The German idealists were certainly influenced by Platonism. Hegel praised Proclus for his own "dialectical logic." Yet, an honest look at Platonists and their writings will tell you just that: it is influence, not identity, and certainly a distorted vision of it. A lot of Neoplatonism in the past was distorted by a Romantic affection for the philosophy of nature, hence the interest in "paganism" in the first place. I'm of the opinion recent scholarship has began to reclaim Platonism for what it is. But hey, maybe in a few decades they'll be accused of their post-modern distortions of it, with all of their talk of semiotics, hermeneutics, etc.

But to add water to my own fire, if you're interested in an even deeper polemic of Neoplatonic aesthetic theories and their role in philosophy and society, I recommend to you the books Art And Power: Renaissance Festivals by Roy Strong and Astraea: The Imperial Theme in the Sixteenth Century by Frances Yates which go into the influence of paganism and Platonism in the cultural and political changes in late Europe with the articulation and reinterpretation of imperial rule, royal prerogative, and public festivals. The Power of Kings by Monod may be another one to look at. I came across these polemical books when trying to understand the roots of Julius Evola's political thought. They mostly survey royal interest in Platonism and other occult subjects, with their brandishing of it as a way to articulate, flaunt and distance their own culture from the public. There's some other talk about this in The History of Florence by John Najemy on the antinomianism and extravagancies of the Florentine aristocracy.

[Anonymous No.11465767]

>>11465753
>Traditionalism has become a trap that too many poetntially interesting people fall into. I've seen it firsthand.

Care to give some examples? Perhaps young aspiring post-modern jazz faggot quits art school and to purse life of religion? What a waste!

You make it sound as if someone reading Guénon ends up as some Jihadist.

[Anonymous No.11465773]

>>11465742
kek

[Anonymous No.11465775]

>>11465764
I have not read the works of Frithjof Schuon, but I also have some super sketchy vibes from him.

I mean the whole "Virgin Mary" visions of his, Native American stuff, Sufism.

The whole thing just screams so much "New-Age" and "everything goes" to me, but then again I could be wrong.

[Anonymous No.11465789]

>>11465753
Interesting, care to share some more about your critique of their metaphysics? As I understand it, the idea is that every assumption or principle must depend on a higher or prior one, and all this chain traces back to the principle of Unity (non-duality) which by definition can not have a higher principle. One can attempt to expound on this chain of principles discursively but such an attempt would be flawed on two fronts:
1. It would not penetrate one's being in the same way that real praxis or engagement with tradition does and would therefore always remain superficial.
2. Discursive explanations are simply not adequate to the matter, which is why just about all traditions make recourse to symbolism as the language of metaphysics.

To me this makes sense, especially since I've actually had such "intellectual openings" vis a vis symbolism and practice (not trying to brag).

I'm sorry if these threads have recieved you poorly, you seem to have some interesting points of view and I'd truly like to see your continued contributions.

[Anonymous No.11465811]

>>11465191
>your goal and your "insights" could all be false constructs

There are plenty of religions and denominations that provide this.

[Anonymous No.11465815]

>>11465789
I doubly agree with this anon that no one who comes in genuinely to discuss ought to be spammed out of the thread.

Could you open up about some of your intellectual openings while contemplating symbols while you wait for his response?

[Anonymous No.11465873]

>>11465815
It can't be adequately put into words but it was quite similar to the "divine darkness" mentioned by the hesychasts. I was contemplating the nature of the Word when I realized several things:
1. The Word, as profound of a reality as it represents, is still not the Ultimate, and "behind" this Word is a truly limitless reality.
2. There is somehow a real analogy between the Word and that limitless reality, as impossible as that might seem―this is basically the premise of all religions, otherwise they would have no efficacy. It's truly the "mysterium magnum" of metaphysics.

A light sort of clicked on in my head and I realized the truth of this in a deeper way, and I started to invoke such a Word, repeating "Allah" to myself quite spontaneously and in total awe. It was then as if I gently fell into a whole other view of reality. I felt myself and the entire phenomenal world suspended in a void, that phenomenal world reduced to nothing but a barely flickering image, and that image only being maintained by the All-Mercy of God. That void was not a true emptiness but was full of His glory. I remember praying while it was happening for God to take it away from me because too much of this would shatter my sense of individuality and I just wasn't ready for that. It was an unforgettable experience, and has colored all my subsequent practice. It reminds me of what Guenon says in Perspectives on Initiation regarding the difference between communication with higher states versus identity with them. The latter requires an initiation. What I experienced was the former, and considering how overwhelming it was I cannot even image what the latter is like. I've also had other "lesser openings" which were more manageable.

[Anonymous No.11465934]

OP,

You need to stop mis-titling your threads. You are a loser white man, it appears, who converted to a semitic religion and no less that of your own enemy.

You are not a traditionalist, you are something else -- pathetic, misdirected, many other things -- but you are not representing what you claim to.

You need to think of a new title and shtick for these threads from now on; and on a personal note, you should try to be less of a pathetic chump. Adopted the identity of a mud race that hates you because you're too afraid to embrace your own is nothing to boast about or be proud of.

[Anonymous No.11465948]

>>11465934
>my team is better than your team neener neener neener
sorry m8, i've never been much into watching sports

[Anonymous No.11465981]

>>11465948
Are you the OP? Let's brainstorm a more accurate title for your threads.

/lost beta white guys too afraid to get in touch with their own culture who adopt the culture of the heathen invader/

What do you say?

You need to stop misleading people and subverting traditional western ideals regardless. I'm not even a big proponent of such things and find many faults with them, but you are engaging in fraud.

[Anonymous No.11466009]

>>11465981
how should us alpha white chads get in touch with our own culture?

[Anonymous No.11466018]

>>11465981
op is sand nig

[Anonymous No.11466026]

>>11465981
lotta overlap in mentality between the kinds of people inclined to join ISIS and the clean-your-room trad youtube self-actualizaters getting big now, no they're not strictly equivalent but at the root its the same isolated young male pining for absolution somewhere outside the arena that condemns you to terminal mediocrity and hopelessness

[Anonymous No.11466047]

>>11466018
I believe he indicated he's white and converted to the sand niggery due to family trauma and falling head over heels for Guenon.

>>11466009
Weaning yourself off of this semitic pedo-worshipping desert cult ideology is going to be step one.

[Anonymous No.11466063]

>>11466026
Perhaps, but one of those paths is objectively more reasonable, rational, and patrimonily aligned than the other.

[Anonymous No.11466065]

>>11466047
what’s step two? already not really convinced by the Muslim larping 2bh

[Anonymous No.11466086]

>>11465708
>>11465719
These. If you are involved in a "Traditionlist group," it diverts your attention away from attaining personal metaphysical insight, and will have no greater function than a study group.

[Anonymous No.11466105]

>>11466065
Traditionalism is a good way into that for a young white man trapped in this backwards judaic culture. I'm all for that, Guenon too. My beef here is this sheister OP muddling some of those things and trying to mix them in with his own failed search for meaning that led him to adopting the beliefs of those trying to destroy his own culture.

[Anonymous No.11466152]

>>11465981
>too afraid to get in touch with their own culture
what does that even mean? why would someone be afraid of their western euroean culture? what is so scary about lederhosen and baguettes

[Anonymous No.11466183]

>>11466152
At the root of culture is identity, and if you think embracing white/European identity doesn't come with a whole lot of baggage then you aren't paying attention.

The OP was desperate for an identity, but there were too many obstacles in the way of him embracing his own, so he embraced that of his enemy, and a religion practiced primarily (inb4 Indonesia) by a shit-tier race that hates him.

This is beyond pathetic.

[Anonymous No.11466213]

>>11466183
yeah, there are like zero obstacles to embracing islam but putting on a pair of lederhosen and singing god save the queen will really put your life in dire risk.

[Anonymous No.11466263]

>>11466213
Notice how this chump trivializes the culture he comes from and plays up the bad boy aspect of the mud culture he adopted.

This is an individual with a deep psychological void and hatred of his own nature that he can't come to terms with as an adult.

Definitely not someone who should be starting threads about 'traditionalism' and feigning authority on such matters around here.

[Anonymous No.11466267]

>>11466183
The identity (i.e. ego) is a spook.

[Anonymous No.11466279]

>>11466267
Racial identity is the most fundamental aspect of our nature and informs culture, behavior, and everything else.

[Anonymous No.11466341]

>>11466279
>Racial identity is the most fundamental aspect of our nature
Since when? What constitutes the white race, anyway? A very recent concept.

[Anonymous No.11466355]

>>11466263
thanks herr dokter, your analysis of the patient's motives is nothing short of brilliant. these goyim will never truly understand our science of psychoanalysis

[Anonymous No.11466362]

>>11466263
>the culture he comes from
the guy is clearly jewish. he’s doing no such thing.

[Anonymous No.11466366]

>>11466362
>jewish
How do you figure?

[Anonymous No.11466389]

>>11466341
Whites are Aryans/Indo-Europeans and belong to a very distinct group that exists on a spectrum but is easily definable.

>>11466362
I haven't paid enough attention to the clown to gather that, but I can't say I'd be surprised if it were true, especially since there is no trace of jew-awareness in these 'traditionalism' posts he makes. Dude is a fraud either way.

But like he said, >>11466366

[Anonymous No.11466406]

>>11466389
>but is easily definable.
Not really the case. This has been a moving target for centuries and even before then a real non-issue.

[Anonymous No.11466447]

>>11466406
Nope. That's a jewish narrative. It's only ambiguous at the fringes with admixed groups conquered by Indo-Europeans (high-caste Indians) and Europeans melded with non-Europeans (Sicilians).

[Anonymous No.11466462]

>>11466447
your hatred of jews has basically turned you into some kind of hyperjew

[Anonymous No.11466477]

>>11466447
How is that a moving target? Notions of whiteness have not been static throughout the previous centuries or even now. What you think is "white" wouldn't apply for others, and vice versa. Look no further than the Jared "Jews look huyite to me" Taylor debate.

[Anonymous No.11466487]

>>11466462
the memespace has transformed /pol/ into a virtual indoeurpean synagogue

[Anonymous No.11466497]

>>11466462
Your statement doesn't make any sense.

>>11466477
You're talking about the fringes and people with admixture, but those people do not define the debate.

[Anonymous No.11466511]

>>11466497
>Your statement doesn't make any sense.
the real jew was you all along

search your feelings, you know this to be true

[Anonymous No.11466520]

>>11466511
It simply doesn't make any sense, logically or even in the abstract psychological-intimidation sense you're intending.

[Anonymous No.11466558]

>muh desert pedo cults
>muh culture
>muh joos
>muh indoeuropeans
>muh haplogroups
>muh blavatsky
>muh everything i dont like is a cult
this is why we can't have nice things, i'll be surprised if op ever makes another thread

[Anonymous No.11466562]

>>11466497
People like the Irish or Russians? Come on, son.

>Indo-Europeans
So now Caucasian Muslims are white too?

[Anonymous No.11466575]

>>11466562
yes, check out this pure indoeurpean magic. western europeanlets can't handle this much raw unfiltered aryan power
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uiNlZ02fC3U

[Anonymous No.11466594]

>>11466558
>i'll be surprised if op ever makes another thread

Let's hope not, or at least hope he titles any forthcoming correctly.

>>11466562
Again, you're repeating a jewish narrative whose intent is to bog down discussions about white interests by pretending such a thing doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.11466610]

>>11466594
What Jews promote this? I'm merely saying the same shit I hear at AmRen conferences and even places like VDARE.

Fuck off with this "Muh Jews" promote this. The notion of whiteness is much more complex than "yeah just Indo-Europeans"

[Anonymous No.11466617]

>>11466594
So are these guys white or not?
>>11466575
>IndoEuro
>Look white
What more do you need?

[Anonymous No.11466620]

whites have a lot more in common with jews then either group have in common with the other world ethnicities. whites and jews are two sides of the same degenerate coin

[Anonymous No.11466628]

>>11466620
What jews are to the white race, whites are to the globe. This is the final red pill.

[Anonymous No.11466650]

>>11466610
That is *the* jewish narrative, and if you are white and aware of a website like Vdare you should know this.

>>11466617
No one thinks that Russians and Irish are not white.

>>11466620
Jews have pilfered DNA from whites for millennia in order to jew, but that in no way means they have adopted a common interest with us; it's the opposite.

[Anonymous No.11466656]

>>11466628
Nonwhites and antiwhites like you should not be posting on /lit/. Don't know why you're hanging around here to begin with.

[Anonymous No.11466657]

>>11466650
The struggle between whites and jews is a sibling rivalry. to the rest of the world both groups are turbokikes. you guys are basically the same. just a bunch of money grubbing degenrates

[Anonymous No.11466668]

>>11466656
>should

[Anonymous No.11466670]

>>11466657
No, whites and jews are polar opposites and mortal enemies.

[Anonymous No.11466684]

>>11466670
which goes to show how closely related they are. light and darkness are also polar opposites and hence more closely related to eachother the either is to apples or to monsoons or some other unrelated thing. the existence of a polar relationship just goes to show their mutual dependance on one another and their complementarity. in reality its just a question of degrees along the selfsame spectrum of jewishness-whiteness

[Anonymous No.11466694]

>>11466684
aaaand /thread

[Anonymous No.11466710]

>>11466684
>mutual dependance on one another and their complementarity
except homogeneous white countries are awesome and homogenous jewish countries are nonexistent apart from memesreal

[Anonymous No.11466713]

>>11466684
There is some deep esoteric truth in that analysis, but you're still wrong. Whites have been infected by jews for many centuries as this parasite has followed us around and inserted itself upon us. But it's not a necessary or complementary relationship, and whites do not need jews and would be much better off without them.

[Anonymous No.11467024]

Great thread

[Anonymous No.11467027]

Jesus Christ this thread has been a rollercoaster. I suppose it's only poetic it turned into muh j00s in the end

[Anonymous No.11467085]

>>11467027
/lit/ is not ready for this level of gnosis

[Anonymous No.11467104]

Men without their own tradition making a fetish from the pool of history. Still living very much in the clasp of the system.

[Anonymous No.11467114]

>>11466575
Their language is no IE. And that dance is Islamic.

[Anonymous No.11467117]

>>11467104
>the system
has the system got you down maaaan?

[Anonymous No.11467124]

>>11467114
well, at least you aren't accusing it of being jewish. looks like your making some progress, anon. we'll have you cured of your monomania in no time

[Anonymous No.11467133]

>>11467117
that guy is pure aryan stock

[Anonymous No.11467158]

So what are the biggest differences Theosophy and Traditionalism? Why did Guenon dislike it so much?
There seems to be points of convergence with esotericism, ancient religions (especially with someone like Evola).

[Anonymous No.11467227]

>>11465628
His book on Christian art is really nice

[Anonymous No.11467242]

>>11466713
Without Jews Whites would have become irrelevant 2,500 years ago

[Anonymous No.11467271]

>>11467242
exactly, colonialism would have never happened without jews and whites would have just been some obscure ethnic group living on a little peninsula jutting off of western asia (i.e. europe). given the way things are moving whites will once again be relegated to an irrelevant race on their backwater corner of the earth. its sad, but cant say they didnt bring this on themselves

[Anonymous No.11467314]

>>11467104
We must destroy the system!

[Anonymous No.11467365]

Has anyone read Charles Upton's book "What the Poets Used to Know"? I was thinking of buying it, if nobody else has read it I can post a review in the next thread.

[Anonymous No.11467372]

>>11467365
i haven't read anything from upton

[Anonymous No.11467388]

>>11467271
>obscure ethnic group living on a little peninsula jutting off of western asia
thanks for reminding me about pic related

[Anonymous No.11467407]

>>11467388
>the northern barbarians and the southern barbarians―the whites and the blacks
>The idea that Frankish religion and philosophy might be of interest occured to no one
>'But God knows best what goes on in those parts!'
Holy shit, this is gold.

[Anonymous No.11467414]

>>11467388
based and redpilled

[Anonymous No.11467442]

>>11467365
>>11467372
Has anyone here read anything from Upton? I'm not sure how to feel about an aging ex-hippy/activist calling himself a traditionalist

[Anonymous No.11467484]

>>11466650
>That is *the* jewish narrative, and if you are white and aware of a website like Vdare you should know this.
What are you on about? This is and remains a point of contention within the WN community, regarding the status of Jews.

>>11466650
>No one thinks that Russians and Irish are not white.
Lmao...lad, I...

[Anonymous No.11467492]

>>11466650
See this:
>>11467388
For an example of how whites were set aside from Greeks (some Nordicists would still claim this).

[Anonymous No.11467620]

>>11467442
That was my thought too. And it really seems like he's bounced around a lot of movements, not exactly the first one I'd trust.

[Anonymous No.11467712]

OP next time just make a thread called eastern thought general (and westerners who engage with eastern thought) so you attract less of the autists

[Anonymous No.11467728]

>>11467712
Fine, I was gonna give up on these threads, but I'll give it one more shot with another title.

[Anonymous No.11467950]

>>11467712
>>11467728
Anyone else have other suggestions for new titles or ways of ammending the OP so as to generate less autism and hostility?

[Anonymous No.11467967]

>>11467950
Some ideas:
>get rid of guenon picture in op
>call it "comparative religion studies"
>include a longer list of authors that deal with religious studies rather than only trad authors
>make part of the state purpose of the thread, besides just discussion, to come up with oc material like copypasta and recc charts relating to various religions and spiritual traditions

[Anonymous No.11467986]

>>11467967
also ammend the islam copy pasta because it almost exclusively cites trad authors

[Anonymous No.11468032]

>>11467986
but the copy pasta is valuable.

>>11467950
Just call it Trad and ignore the autists. Theyre easy enough to notice so dont take the bait.

[Anonymous No.11468110]

>>11461930
>Betrayal of Tradition
I've met Oldmeadow. Interesting that it's on there.

[Anonymous No.11468724]

>>11468110
story?

[Anonymous No.11468727]

>>11467158
The difference between is that between actual religion and that of New Age whackjobs.

Even though boasting tens of thousands of members worldwide at some point: Theosophy has not been relevant in the last 50 years. Theosophical society of my city is mostly yoga center for women past their 60s who do ayurveda and holistic healings.

>>11467365
I read Charles Upton´s "Vectors of the Counter-Initiation" and "The System of Antichrist"

Upton certainly has some very interesting notes he makes, but some of the writing is extremely tedious and repetitive. Especially some parts of "Antichrist" felt more like listening to a podcast rather than reading a book.

I can still recommend him as an author

[Anonymous No.11468741]

>>11468727
are you the Vedanta poster by any chance?

[Anonymous No.11468750]

>>11468741
to add, if you are i was gonna ask if you mind putting together some kind of recc chart based on the stuff you've suggested in the past. It would be a helpful contribution to future threads

[Anonymous No.11468751]

>>11468741
No. I find him extremely tedious and repetitive too.

[Anonymous No.11468793]

>>11467158
Some story time to keep the thread alive:

Following Madame Blavatsky´s death Theosophical Society was divided between Olcott, Judge and Mrs Besant, each of claiming succession by direct communication of the so called "Mahatmas". Eventually, Mrs Besant practically took over the leadership of Theosophical Society.

Annie Besant took the Theosophical Society towards a new orientation, maybe out of desperation or for other unknown reasons the society at large was desperate for "World Teacher" or "Maitreya" and thus "The Order of the Star in the East" was formed in 1911 which aim was to "to prepare the world for the arrival of a messianic entity, the so-called World Teacher or Maitreya"

The young man who was being raised to fulfill this role of "Theosophical" messiah was a Hindu boy named Jiddu Krishnamurti.

Mrs. Besant appointed herself as the legal guardian of Jiddu, also adopting his brother Nityananda, who was to fulfill some secondary mission (Nityananda ultimately died young without being able to fulfill his messianic enterprises of Theosophy)

Sometime between late April and late May 1909, at the private beach of the Theosophical Society Headquarters in Adyar, Chennai, Leadbeater encountered Jiddu Krishnamurti, a fourteen-year-old South Indian Brahmin

Leadbeater, a controversial figure whose knowledge on occult matters was highly respected by the Society's leadership, came to believe young Krishnamurti was a suitable candidate for the vehicle of the World Teacher – despite the boy's reputedly dull personality and lackluster intellect

Following the "discovery", Leadbeater began occult examinations of Krishnamurti, to whom he had assigned the pseudonym Alcyone – the name of a star in the Pleiades star cluster, and of characters from Greek mythology.

[Anonymous No.11468798]

>>11468793
In late 1910 the Theosophical Society published the first work "by Alcyone", a booklet entitled At the Feet of the Master. The book became very popular among Theosophists.
In April 1911 Besant founded the Order of the Star in the East. It was named after the Star of Bethlehem, signifying the proclaimed approach of the new vehicle of Christ-Maitreya in Jiddu Krishnamurti

Aleister Crowley wrote of the matter:
>The Black School has always worked insidiously, by treachery. We need then not be surprised by finding that its most notable representative was the renegade follower of Blavatsky, Annie Besant, and that she was charged by her Black masters with the mission of persuading the world to accept for its Teacher a negroid Messiah (1). To make the humiliation more complete, a wretched creature was chosen who, to the most loathsome moral qualities, added the most fatuous imbecility. And then blew up! (Quote from Magick Without Tears)

By the late 1920s, Jiddu Krishnamurti's emphasis in public talks and private discussions had changed. He had been gradually discarding or contradicting Theosophical concepts and terminology, disagreeing with leading Theosophists, and talking less about the World Teacher; public interest, and attendance at his speaking engagements, remained high

Finally, on 3 August 1929, at the Ommen Star Camp, Krishnamurti disbanded the Order in front of Besant and about 3,000 members.

Despite the changes in Krishnamurti's outlook and pronouncements during the preceding years (and more recent rumors of impending dissolution), the ending of the Order and its mission shocked many of its supporters. Prominent Theosophists openly or under various guises turned against Krishnamurti – including Leadbeater, who reputedly stated, "the Coming has gone wrong"

[Anonymous No.11468819]

pic related is a brief summary of the history of theosophy

[Anonymous No.11468842]

>>11468793
>>11468798
>>11468819
Some ficki ficki stuff also going on:
> Leadbeater admitted under oath in 1906 to intimately touching and performing indecent acts on young boys in his care on numerous occasions and often in ongoing circumstances. This confession, which he made after complaints and allegations from several boys, quite rightly resulted in his being forced out of the Theosophical Society in shame and disgrace, only to later be invited back and readmitted by Annie Besant, much to the disgust of many other Theosophists.

>“Mrs Dennis added the testimonies of the mothers of two boys (one of whom was herself, although she did not state this) giving details of how the information had been received. The first boy had suddenly become antagonistic towards Leadbeater, but despite rebukes from his mother would not explain his feelings, saying: “Mother, I shall never tell you, but if you knew what I know, had heard and seen the things I have heard and seen, you would not wonder.” Eventually:
>“A few months ago charges reached me of immoral sexual practices by Mr L. with boys, having been made in India, and the same having been suspected in England. When [the boy] was again questioned he testified that Mr. L. had taught him how to practice self-abuse [i.e. masturbation]. When asked what reason he gave for teaching him such practices he said, ‘Mr Leadbeater told me that it would make me grow strong and manly.’ Asked his reason for concealing these facts so long from his parents, he said, ‘He made me promise not to tell.'”
>“The mother of the second boy had also noticed her son’s sudden change of attitude toward Leadbeater after a short trip the boy had made with him when he was fourteen years old. The boy no longer replied to Leadbeater’s letters until his mother insisted upon it, whereas previously affectionate letters had been frequent between them. When questioned the boy said he could not tell why his attitude has changed. When the charges against Leadbeater became known to the boy’s mother, she questioned him again:
>“With great reluctance he admitted the facts of Mr L.’s immoral conduct and in reply to the question ‘When did it happen?’ he said ‘The very first night I visited him we slept together.’ When asked what excuse Mr L. gave for such conduct, the boy’s words were ‘Mother, I think that was the worst part of the whole thing, somehow he made me believe it was Theosophical.”

It sure was... Theosophical.

[Anonymous No.11468865]

>>11468842
Aleister Crowley described the case in one of his letters:
>About Krishnamurti. There is no objection to paederasty as such. This is a totally different matter. It is a question of the following practice, which I class as black magical because it is unnecessary, unrecommended from the magical standpoint, and likely to arouse highly undesirable forces as being in opposition to the Law of Thelema. The practice consists in hypnotising a boy and masturbating him while in that condition. He then becomes lucid.

[Anonymous No.11468877]

>>11468865
What's your opinion on Crowley?

[Anonymous No.11468894]

>>11468877
I think Julius Evola summed up my view pretty well:
>Crowley was a character whose personality overpowers certain of the figures already considered. If we associate him with Satanism, it is because he himself invites us to do so. In fact, he gave himself the title of “Great Beast 666” who is the Antichrist of the Apocalypse, while he gave to the women whom he
selected and used, the title “Scarlet Woman” who, in John’s Apocalypse, is the Great Whore associated with the “Beast”. The judgment as the “Wickedest man in England”, given him by a judge in England in relation to a certain judicial proceeding, must have greatly pleased him, so much was his predilection for
scandal, not fleeing from masks and mystifications of every type just for this purpose.

Article on Crowley by Evola http://www.gornahoor.net/library/EvolaOnCrowley.pdf

Even Guénon talks of Crowley in one of his letters:
>The Golden Dawn was a self-styled Hermetic organization that fundamentally did not seem to have a very serious character, because it was from its beginnings an authentic mystification. It is true that this could serve to conceal some rather suspect things. Internally, the principle role was developed by MacGregor and his wife (Bergson’s sister). Only much later was Crowley introduced to it, as he also did in many other things. Even when it was not about rather insignificant pseudo-initiations (perhaps he was not at all the case for the Golden Dawn), his involvement introduced truly sinister influences into it, if from making of it something much more dangerous.

>To come back to Aleister Crowley, what you told me reminds me of the story that turned up in 1931 (I believe at least that was the exact date): while he was in Portugal, he suddenly disappeared. They found his clothes on the border of the sea, something that made them believe he had drowned. But it was only a simulated death, since they were no longer concerned about him and did not try to find out where he had gone. Actually, he went to Berlin to play the role of secret adviser to Hitler who was then at his beginning. It is probably this that had given rise to certain tales about the Golden Dawn, but in reality it was only about Crowley, because it does not seem that a certain English colonel named Etherton, who was then his “colleague”, had ever had the least relationship with that organization.

>A little later, Crowley founded the Saturn-Lodge in Germany; have you ever heard of it? There he called himself Master Therion, and his signature was to mega Therion (the Great Beast), something that in Greek gives exactly the numeric value 666.

I think Crowley was largely a misunderstood figure.

[Anonymous No.11468898]

>>11468865
The practice consists in hypnotising a boy and masturbating him while in that condition. He then becomes lucid.
This is unironically my fetish, on the receiving end, of course.

[Anonymous No.11469137]

>>11466558
It’s weird, people criticizing OP for converting to a “non-white religion” and following a long lasting extant world tradition instead of embracing his own. Yet white Americans like him had no tradition to embrace no longer, Islam is universal and not designated for any specific persons

[Anonymous No.11469163]

> bad boy aspect

[Anonymous No.11469429]

>>11468750
I am and have been working on a chart for a while but its basically the first /lit/ guide to Hinduism and also includes non-Vedanta texts with detailed descriptions of each. It's a large undertaking and my life is already super busy but it should be done by the end of summer.

>>11468751
>No. I find him extremely tedious and repetitive too.

To be fair, more than 90% of my posts about Vedanta are just answering questions that people have. Because I try to be helpful and answer any questions I end up repeating myself often because roughly the same questions end up being asked every thread. If more people who were knowledgeable about it were posting here than I l'd be able to have interesting conversations about it with them instead of just recommending texts and explaining the basics over and over again.

[Anonymous No.11469463]

>>11469429
Just out of interest: do you practice some sort of Hinduism/Vedic rites? Are you perhaps Indian yourself or caucasian etc.

[Anonymous No.11469929]

>>11469463
I'm a white person living in the west. I agree with and believe Advaita to be true (and think stuff like Vishitadvaita and Neoplatonism etc mostly to be different ways of expressing the same truth). I don't practice any rites though. If I ever happened to move to India/Nepal/Bali or married into a Hindu family I would have no problem incidentally picking up whatever were common rites in my community because it'd be easy for me to grasp the significance of them instead of seeing them as empty gestures.

I'm not super compelled at the moment to pick up some sort of regular rite/ritual though because what little free time I have that I'm not already with other people I'd rather just read texts, and because I already understand that I'm sort of studying it passively as a layperson as not as a full participant. I have no illusions about becoming liberated while I work a job and continue to have sex. Vedanta itself teaches that its basically impossible to fully understand the truth and become liberated without first fully submitting yourself to and allowing yourself to be guided/initiated by a guru (except for the 1 in a billion exceptions like Ramana Maharshi, whose liberation Shankara would have probably chalked up to the divine intervention of something like Ishvara anyways, implying that its not something everyone is inherently capable of).

Still though, even studying it in the limited sense that I have, I've still greatly benefitted from it. When I actually devote a concious effort to implementing its teachings and practices I just generally feel blissful all the time. It comes and goes in waves but during the periods when I put more effort it's like I'm floating around on a cloud. The present moment itself becomes a kind of perpetual cosmic hammock that you are always peacefully reclining in no matter what you are doing.

[Anonymous No.11469945]

>>11469929
>Vedanta itself teaches that its basically impossible to fully understand the truth and become liberated without first fully submitting yourself to and allowing yourself to be guided/initiated by a guru (except for the 1 in a billion exceptions like Ramana Maharshi, whose liberation Shankara would have probably chalked up to the divine intervention of something like Ishvara anyways, implying that its not something everyone is inherently capable of).

I talked about this a bit in my post >>11465641

[Anonymous No.11469976]

>>11462261
why did you left out the part where you were a skinhead in high school? how many celtic crosses have you daubed before stumbling over a guenon book?

[Anonymous No.11469981]

Why are there so many Discordians roaming underTraditionalist arcades?

[Anonymous No.11470107]

>>11469945

Yes, I haven't read that particular Guenon book and I'm not familar with the Islamic terminology used in your post although I was aware that Guenon allowed for those sorts of extraordinary occurances bypassing the normal way it works. The Sophia Perennis edition of Studies in Hinduism has like 150+ pages of book/article reviews by Guenon ranging from Coomaraswamy/Aurobindo/Vivekananda/Eliade/Pallis/Ramana etc and in his review of some of the published transcriptions of Ramana's talks he specifically mentions him as one of the people where this occurred.

There is sometimes an incorrect reading I see posted where people interpret Guenon and/or non-dualism as basically just being a Spinozaist reduction of everything to one substance or just a way of saying the universe is self-aware, almost like saying its just a different way of thinking about atheist materialism. As an example this poster >>11463133
says a panenthiest god is the same as an athiest's ontology. In the proper understanding of it though it actually is a divine god, which is what allows for things like avatara's, magic, divinely-influenced transmission and so on to be real.

[Anonymous No.11470152]

>>11470107
>Yes, I haven't read that particular Guenon book and I'm not familar with the Islamic terminology

I believe there is similar concept in the Eastern doctrines, at least in Buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha
>Pratyekabuddhas are said to achieve enlightenment on their own, without the use of teachers or guides, according some traditions by seeing and understanding dependent origination. They are said to arise only in ages where there is no Buddha and the Buddhist teachings (Sanskrit: dharma; Pāli: dhamma) are lost. "The idea of a Paccekabuddha … is interesting, as much as it implies that even when the four truths are not preached they still exist and can be discovered by anyone who makes the necessary mental and moral effort

[Anonymous No.11470175]

>>11468724
He's a local, fairly unapproachable, but seems nice enough. He taught religion and philosophy at the university that I go to for a while.

[Anonymous No.11470189]

>>11468727
>>11468793
OK. I remember on an earlier thread Evola received some criticism for never subscribing to a particular religion.

What about Manly P Hall? I've read two of his works. He seems to have a lot in common with theosophy too...he seemed well read in a variety of traditions, but never subscribed to any. For him it seems knowledge > religious practice.

[Anonymous No.11470395]

>>11465640
fabulous post, thank you anon

[Anonymous No.11470427]

>>11469976
I wasn't a skinhead, but incidentally the high school I went to had many skinheads in it.

[Anonymous No.11470445]

>>11470107
>The Sophia Perennis edition of Studies in Hinduism has like 150+ pages of book/article reviews by Guenon
Whoa, good to know. Do you mind linking us to the exact edition on Amazon?

[Anonymous No.11470541]

>>11470445
https://www.amazon.com/Studies-Hinduism-Collected-Rene-Guenon/dp/0900588691

[Anonymous No.11470564]

>>11461807
stop trying to prove god ontologically

[Anonymous No.11470575]

>>11470564
stop taking brainlet manlets seriously

[Anonymous No.11470869]

>>11470541
thank you

[Anonymous No.11471058]

>Islam isn't a "white religion"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zclw9NovbA