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/lit/ - Literature

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11408135 No.11408135 [Reply] [Original]

I dont understand why people bash the Quaran so much, its fairly well written and there is a good amount of philosophical questions and virtues.

So why do people that haven't read more than a select passage with no context feel justified to shit on it?

>> No.11408141

because im a christian

>> No.11408189

i like the part about djinnis and though iblis was a pretty cool guy

>> No.11408190

Only slightly related but I'm gonna tell it anyways.
Lately I've been to a supposedly far-right meeting and told the people around me that actually Islam wouldn't be so bad or even superior in comparison with the west as it's conservative, has traditional gender roles etc.
They just gave me weird looks and one of the guys even seemed to be completely appalled and told me while shaking his head quickly and laughing indignantly: "Like what? That women should have no rights?" .

>> No.11408205

>its fairly well written and there is a good amount of philosophical questions and virtues.
which? where?

>> No.11408274

>>11408135
The cave chapter (or sura as they call it) is really kino, I just don't think there is much literary value to read the Quran if you do not speak arabic, it's heavily prose driven and I think it loses its charm when translated, then again I can't see myself devoting 5 years into learning arabic

>> No.11408287

>>11408135
no thanks, bible was enuff for me

>> No.11408325

>>11408190
You see the right today is adamant on repeatedly running into the wall of nationalism. You need to go beyond a nominal dualism based on which side of the parliament was occupied by which party during the French revolution. We can do better than left-right and thus pedestrian nationalism if we are talking of conservatism and progressivism.

>> No.11408633

>>11408325
I agree, but I often wonder what exactly are we trying to conserve when not much is left anymore?
When every place on this earth is fully globalized, stripped off of its traditionality (which merely survived as memes of customs and practices or regional idiosyncracies) and connected to the whole world because of the internet?

>> No.11408653

>>11408190
conservative think islam is too conservative kek. They want conservatism in so far as they continue to live degeneracy.

>> No.11408680

>>11408653
This simply isn't true. I'm a reactionary, I think most conservatives are pussies, and you are wrong. Right Wingers such as myself want a return to PREABRAHAMIC VALUES. Islam is okay for non Indo-Europeans, but we actually can handle some personal liberties more responsibly so obviously the strains between western and Islamic conservatism are going to diverge. Your understanding of degeneracy is extremely flawed if you don't see the ways that islamic traditionalism can be degenerate.

>> No.11408689

Muslim here.

People bash it simply because it supports their ideology to do so. Only those who grew up around it can understand it.

>> No.11408695

Mediocre book, explains the mediocrity the middle east today

>> No.11408699

>>11408680
islam can be degenerate im not denying that, btw what are the preabrahamic values?

>> No.11408704

>>11408695
t. boomer

>> No.11408715
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11408715

>>11408689
Wrong

>> No.11408727

>>11408704
I say that primarily due to it's repetitiveness and the lack of poetry (maybe the translation). I can understand the repetitiveness due to the Quran being dictated over decades but you could probably cut out 3/4 of the book and be left with all the distinct verses intact. Also Muhammad's insistence that I be amazed with god turning a staff into a snake was slightly amusing.

>> No.11408758

>>11408135
How do muslim justify the fact that Mohammed revelation always come at the right time?
It make it seems like Mohammed is making shit up as he goes along.

>> No.11408769

>>11408699

cunning/strength as a virtue rather than a positive trait, strict class divides, patriarchy, etc

You'll notice that other ways of thinking DO share these attributes but they are not expressed properly through policy or tradition.

>> No.11408779

>>11408758
Because prophets come at the perfect time. The arabs were in need of one and he came and restored monotheism.

>> No.11408781

There are several things I do not understand.
1. It is one thing to not want any migrants in Europe, and another thing to hate Islam in general or Muslims that live in Islamic countries. Why not see them as allies against (((globalism)))? Wanting a war with Islam is a neocon position.
2. Why does the current left feel the need to constantly defend Muslim? Lefties of the previous generation dislike Muslims because of their social conservatism.

>> No.11408793

>>11408758
You can pretty much say the same about any religious figure.

>> No.11408798

>>11408781

1. Many in the far-right already have or do feel this way. There is a reason that Skorzeny went to work for Egypt after the war.

2. They, at this point, just want to disrupt traditionalist movements. It isn't even about right and wrong to them anymore.

>> No.11408802

>>11408781
left see muslims as allies against the right. Theyre coopting every minority group.

Kek it funny because muslims and right winger have a lot in common. Seeing muslims as allies destroys their idea of eurpean supremacy. Essentially they have no allies.

>> No.11408814

>>11408802
Stop straw-manning the far right

>> No.11408825

>>11408814
whats your explanation then?

>> No.11408833

>>11408798
>1. Many in the far-right already have or do feel this way. There is a reason that Skorzeny went to work for Egypt after the war.

I have to say there isn't really a "far right" as a coherent group or ideologies. There are differences between various communities.

>> No.11408840

>>11408825
First of all, the whole supremacy thing is a meme. Most reactionaries simply want homogeneous homelands that belong to their respective native populations. They would happily accept a muslim alliance as long as those muslim countries were the "right kind of muslim". For example, NatSocs are generally going to be okay with Assad or Iran, but they are going to categorically oppose Saudi Arabia.

>> No.11408841

>>11408793
Not really. Jesus didn't seems power hungry. Bogomile went against the church out of genuine conviction and encouraged people to become independant. I don't know much about Zarathustra but he doesn't seems too greedy.
Mani was trying to have a broad religion that could parasite everything and is worse than Mohammed.

>> No.11408845

>>11408840
Funny how those groups always scream about kikes and nigger then.

>> No.11408859

>>11408840
Whats the right kind of muslim? I have no problem with homogeneous homelands btw.

I dont understand the infatuation with iran and assad.

>> No.11408862

>>11408845

Because they are referring to "kikes and niggers (in my country)". I think the attitude to best express what I'm trying to say was espoused by Oswald Mosley. He oft said that he couldn't blame africans from rebelling against british rule because british people didn't belong in Africa. It wasn't their homeland.

>> No.11408872

>>11408859

I personally believe their popularity is founded in their opposition to the global order that's commonly associated with western degradation

>> No.11408875

>>11408793
No but the quran is claimed to have been revealed in a fragmented form, with verses being revealed sometimes next to others, and always intervening in muhammads biography. Consider this as an example.
>“The two righteous ones, Abu Bakr and Umar, almost earned destruction when they raised their voices before the Prophet who was receiving the delegation of Bani Tamim. One of them recommended Al-Aqra bin Habis the member of the Banu Mujashi` while the other recommended another man. Nafi` (a sub narrator) said: “I don’t remember his name.” Abu Bakr said to Umar, `You only wanted to contradict me,’ while Umar said, `I did not intend to contradict you.’ Their voices then became loud, thereupon Allah the Exalted sent down this Ayah,

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

>O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be thwarted while you perceive not.”

>Abdullah bin Az-Zubayr said, “After that, Umar’s voice was so low that the Messenger of Allah had to ask him to repeat what he said so that he could understand what he was saying to him.” Abdullah bin Az-Zubayr did not mention the same regarding his father, Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him.

>> No.11408906

>>11408862
Well, yeah, but the problem is that some minority groups are actually beneficial to society. And an homogenous group is hard to define. Take america and its costantly broader definition of "white".

I don't like mass immigration either but you should mostly kick out shitty immigrants with average or below skills

Also, natsoc is retarded and I hope it never come back.

>> No.11408924

>>11408825
Basically a combination of fear of being overrun demographically, and a reaction against terrorism, radical Salafi Imams and the general rise of Islamic identity among Muslim migrants. Also the fact that EU and left cucks to them strongly promotes their integration and shutting down any criticism.

>> No.11408935

>>11408924
Surely integration should be the end goal for any migrant group

>> No.11408938

The Koran is literally just the cliffnotes of Islam.

Without the Sura and the Haddith it's all meaningless.

>> No.11408964

>>11408938
Wrong. Sira and hadith give contextualisations and access to better understanding. The Quran is self sufficient.

>> No.11408974

>>11408769
Early on they are, such as the glorification of knights in medieval europe and samurai in japan. Later on, the cultural heros end up as great stories to tell. However, the focus of that society at that point has shifted to economics and wealth, rather than heroism.

>> No.11408980

>>11408964
False. The Koran is out of order. Without the knowledge of Mo' you wont know what order the passages occur and in the case of conflicts which one to listen to (usually the later one).

>> No.11408996

>>11408980
I agree but the quran is taught in a chain of transmission, its not useless on its own. You need to be taught how to read it by a teacher who he himself was taught going backwards to 700 CE.

You always need muhammed youre right about that (a living quran).

>> No.11408998

>>11408974

I prefer to prevent that shift toward a more materialist worldview. I believe it can be done without any detriment to technological progress or economic efficiency.

>> No.11409002

>>11408996
>CE
555-COME-ON-NOW

>> No.11409138

>>11408781
2. Because the Islam practiced by 3rd generation immigrants will obviously not be the same as the one practiced by people in the native country.

>> No.11409386

>>11408781
>why don't people opposed to internationalism adopt foreign cultures as international allies in the fight against . . . internationalism?

hmmmmmmm

>> No.11409403

>>11408135
I have read most of the Quran in Arabic along with the earliest commentaries on it and I can confidently say that it is not as profound as Mudslimes make it to be. Some of it is fairly well-written and powerful, but the majority of it is just repetitive and confused. There are several phrases that are lazily copy-pasted word-for-word across multiple chapters that entail the same commands. The mode of narration shifts abruptly between God talking directly to us in first person and about himself in third person, which is really weird if this was supposed to be the eternal spoken word of God. Also, it does not really contain any good amount of philosophical questions and virtues. In fact, it prohibits asking questions of deep theological value, which is an attitude that has stuck with modern Mudslimes. The virtues in it are not absolute and change depending on Muhammad’s political and social situation.

Just look at how the pagan Arabs interacted with Muhammad in the Quran. He was just the butt of jokes to them and never took him nor his words seriously, since Muhammad repeatedly failed to prove if he was divinely inspired to them. The only thing Muhammad did was to threaten them with hell fire and shift the burden of proof by asking them to bring something like the Quran, which they never even bothered to do because it was just bait at this point. I mean, Muhammad himself said some stuff in Hadiths that are extremely similar to the style of the Quran, which, if he would have added, no one would have said a thing since it is indistinguishable from God's own word, which is ironic.

>> No.11409406

>>11408135
Yes. It's shit. Camp fire tales for desert retards.

>> No.11409412

The Quran is corrupt and Mohammed was a deceiver.

>> No.11409416

>>11409403
Mohammed said that is was a sinner. Muslims follow a sinner meanwhile Christians follow someone who is sinless. No wonder Muslims are so evil.

>> No.11409550

>>11409416
This is funny since many Muslims consider all prophets, including Muhammad, to be infallible and without sin. This leads to a lot of contradictions in their own traditions that they have to somehow reconcile with this idea of infallibility and sinless nature of the prophets. Even Muhammad's companions tried to explain Muhammad's actions that contradict his own commands.

For example, Muhammad commanded them to wash themselves before praying and that if they excrete or sleep, they have to wash themselves again or else their prayers would not be accepted. One day they find Muhammad wake from his snoring deep sleep and then praying normally without washing himself. They were confused at first but soon made up shit like "The eyes of Allah’s Apostle sleep but his heart does not sleep." IDK how that works but okay.

>> No.11409973

>>11409403
>Read Quran in arabic
>has no knowledge of arabic literary devices or grammer

either a shit bait or you cant interpret 7th century arabic.

>> No.11409979

>>11409416
Thats because jesus was born a prophet and wasnt touched by the devil.

>> No.11409989

>>11408135
No, because I don't speak fucking Arabic

>> No.11409997

>>11408998
retarded fucking tripfag pseud

>> No.11410127

>>11408715
I'm interested to hear what Heidegger had to say about Islam?

>> No.11410782

>>11409973
Sure I'm no expert in 7th century Arabic, but I can support and justify every word I've said from the Quran, hadiths, and earliest commentators who knew 7th century Arabic quite well.

>> No.11410786
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11410786

>>11408135
>dont understand why people bash the Quaran so much, its fairly well written

>> No.11410936

>>11408781
2. It's because right-wingers are stand-offish assholes who say things like "muslims are a threat to western civilization."

A leftist who hears that isn't going to hear "Muslims, being from a conservative culture that does not value individuality, women's rights or free market competition, will cause social problems as they are unable to integrate to the western way of life, especially if they come over in too high a number." Instead, they're going to hear "all muslims are evil, we need to genocide them now!" Whether or not the right-winger actually believes the first or the second idea isn't important; what's important is the language used.

>> No.11411004

>>11408781
1 probably because people who want to separate cultures are not prone to researching other cultures. Not in every case, but frequently enough to sway the general opinion
2 leftists, as a rule, do not see immigration as a threat. Anyone who wants to move here is probably doing so out of respect for American culture. Although they are sometimes unclear about it, leftists have a complete mental separation between Muslim immigrants/American Muslims and the Muslims living under/supporting Sharia law. Believing that leftists support Sharia is a mistake caused by not recognizing this separation

>> No.11411052

I've read bits and pieces of the Quaran. Never the whole thing as I'm frankly uninterested. I don't read Arabic anyways, and I figure a translation is definately not worth it.
I don't like Islam. It is counter to my views. It also doesn't help that I don't like Muslims or brown people, generally speaking. I have no issue with people practicing Islam, but I would rather all Muslims stay in their own countries.
That's about it.

>> No.11411557

>>11411052
>counter to my views

kek